Ralph Robbins
Certified Financial Planner
Ralph S. Robbins, CFP©, is a licensed Certified Financial Planning Practitioner and an Accredited VA Claims Agent specializing in Eldercare Financial Planning. He works everyday helping families in crisis find creative ways to fund long-term care expenses and deal with family financial issues.
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Question
Can Medicare come after life insurance as payment for nursing home?
The answer to this question is more complex than one might expect and will be dependent on the beneficiary designation(s) and state that... The answer to this question is more complex than one might expect and will be dependent on the beneficiary designation(s) and state that you live in. Some states have Estate Recovery Programs that attempt to recover from all of a Medicaid recipients assets whereas some will only attempt to recover from probate assets. If you are in a state that only recovers from probate assets then as long as the policy's beneficiary is other than the estate of the insured there should be no problem with the policy beneficiary receiving the proceeds and using them to pay funeral expenses. If, however, you live in a state that does attempts to recover from all of a Medicaid recipient's assets it is possible that recovery can be sought from the policy proceeds.
If the goal is to be assured that funeral expenses will be covered the best option is number 2(b) below...purchasing a pre-paid funeral arrangement and having it deemed an irrevocable contract by the provider. This is effective in all states.
The more imminent question with regard to owning a life insurance policy is with respect to eligibility, i.e., can you keep the policy when applying for benefits in the first place?
1. Does the policy have cash value? If it does, each state has rules as to the amount of life insurance permitted to be retained without causing an eligibility penalty. For instance in Florida if the total face value (in other words death benefit) of all policies owned is less than or equal to $2,500 then the cash value of the total of all policies is excluded. If the total death benefit of all policies exceeds $2,500 then the cash value of all policies is included in determining the asset test.
2. If the policy would otherwise be countable and you want to fund funeral costs you have two options:
a. Keep the policy as a countable asset but reduce its cash value to below $2,000. This can be done by either borrowing or withdrawing the cash value down to the appropriate level. Keep in mind that premium may have to continue to be paid to keep the policy in force and the Medicaid recipient may not have the income to pay it (some other party will have to pay the premium to maintain the policy). The "spend down" techniques discussed elsewhere will then have to be employed with funds borrowed or withdrawn from the policy to keep the Medicaid recipients assets under $2,000.
b. The policy can be surrendered completely and the cash value used to purchase an Irrevocable Funeral Arrangement with a funeral home. If deemed irrevocable the value of the funeral contract will not be countable as an asset for eligibility purposes and cannot be sought as a source for Medicaid Estate Recovery. see more
If the goal is to be assured that funeral expenses will be covered the best option is number 2(b) below...purchasing a pre-paid funeral arrangement and having it deemed an irrevocable contract by the provider. This is effective in all states.
The more imminent question with regard to owning a life insurance policy is with respect to eligibility, i.e., can you keep the policy when applying for benefits in the first place?
1. Does the policy have cash value? If it does, each state has rules as to the amount of life insurance permitted to be retained without causing an eligibility penalty. For instance in Florida if the total face value (in other words death benefit) of all policies owned is less than or equal to $2,500 then the cash value of the total of all policies is excluded. If the total death benefit of all policies exceeds $2,500 then the cash value of all policies is included in determining the asset test.
2. If the policy would otherwise be countable and you want to fund funeral costs you have two options:
a. Keep the policy as a countable asset but reduce its cash value to below $2,000. This can be done by either borrowing or withdrawing the cash value down to the appropriate level. Keep in mind that premium may have to continue to be paid to keep the policy in force and the Medicaid recipient may not have the income to pay it (some other party will have to pay the premium to maintain the policy). The "spend down" techniques discussed elsewhere will then have to be employed with funds borrowed or withdrawn from the policy to keep the Medicaid recipients assets under $2,000.
b. The policy can be surrendered completely and the cash value used to purchase an Irrevocable Funeral Arrangement with a funeral home. If deemed irrevocable the value of the funeral contract will not be countable as an asset for eligibility purposes and cannot be sought as a source for Medicaid Estate Recovery. see more
Question
Medicaid eligibility. Any advice?
Larry... 1. If your father is a veteran many states have State Veteran Nursing Homes for non-service connected care. There is no... Larry...
1. If your father is a veteran many states have State Veteran Nursing Homes for non-service connected care. There is no income/asset requirement and no penalty for divestiture of assets. Check here: http://www.va.gov/geriatrics/guide/longtermcare/State_Veterans_Homes.asp
2. Every state has "hardship" provisions when it come to Medicaid eligibility for nursing home benefits. If assets were given away prior to application not for the purpose of attempting eligibility and are not retrievable it is quite possible that you father will qualify. see more
1. If your father is a veteran many states have State Veteran Nursing Homes for non-service connected care. There is no income/asset requirement and no penalty for divestiture of assets. Check here: http://www.va.gov/geriatrics/guide/longtermcare/State_Veterans_Homes.asp
2. Every state has "hardship" provisions when it come to Medicaid eligibility for nursing home benefits. If assets were given away prior to application not for the purpose of attempting eligibility and are not retrievable it is quite possible that you father will qualify. see more
Question
Does anyone know about assumed loans by taking over a parent's home?
Many helpful answer and suggestions but in actuality the answer/advice is dependent on which state you live in as every state has different... Many helpful answer and suggestions but in actuality the answer/advice is dependent on which state you live in as every state has different eligibility and estate recovery rules.
For instance, Florida does not place Medicaid liens and will not recover from non-probate assets nor will they recover a property ordered a homestead at probate if the heir is a family member (this homestead determination is different than that for property tax or ad valorem tax purposes). see more
For instance, Florida does not place Medicaid liens and will not recover from non-probate assets nor will they recover a property ordered a homestead at probate if the heir is a family member (this homestead determination is different than that for property tax or ad valorem tax purposes). see more
Question
Denied being fiduciary for my brother. What can I do?
Shorty... I am surprised you are so surprised that the VA would not be willing to appoint you as fiduciary given a poor credit report. ... Shorty...
I am surprised you are so surprised that the VA would not be willing to appoint you as fiduciary given a poor credit report. Although you may indeed be a good steward of your brother's funds the examiner obviously felt it was not in your brother's best interest to appoint you.
Your brother or his POA can appeal (http://www.benefits.va.gov/fiduciary/beneficiary.asp) but it a long process and success is not likely.
If an appeal is made efforts would be better spent getting another relative appointed rather than trying to change the decision already made with respect to your service. see more
I am surprised you are so surprised that the VA would not be willing to appoint you as fiduciary given a poor credit report. Although you may indeed be a good steward of your brother's funds the examiner obviously felt it was not in your brother's best interest to appoint you.
Your brother or his POA can appeal (http://www.benefits.va.gov/fiduciary/beneficiary.asp) but it a long process and success is not likely.
If an appeal is made efforts would be better spent getting another relative appointed rather than trying to change the decision already made with respect to your service. see more
Question
What happens if I cannot account for parent's expenses when applying for Medicaid?
Gabbisgram... I encourage you not to spend down your father's assets before applying for Medicaid. He will need that money to help... Gabbisgram...
I encourage you not to spend down your father's assets before applying for Medicaid. He will need that money to help sustain his needs while receiving Medicaid benefits.
There are other techniques but one that almost no one has qualms with from a moral or public policy perspective is the transfer of funds over the permitted asset maximum to a Supplemental Needs Pooled Trust.
Your father can transfer funds to this trust and he will immediately be eligible. The funds he transferred can be used for virtually anything related to his health, maintenance and welfare.
You do not need a lawyer as he will be joining a trust already established by a non-profit organization and the arrangement is easily understood.
Maine has one. Read about it here:
http://mainepooleddisabilitytrust.org/aboutmpdt.shtml see more
I encourage you not to spend down your father's assets before applying for Medicaid. He will need that money to help sustain his needs while receiving Medicaid benefits.
There are other techniques but one that almost no one has qualms with from a moral or public policy perspective is the transfer of funds over the permitted asset maximum to a Supplemental Needs Pooled Trust.
Your father can transfer funds to this trust and he will immediately be eligible. The funds he transferred can be used for virtually anything related to his health, maintenance and welfare.
You do not need a lawyer as he will be joining a trust already established by a non-profit organization and the arrangement is easily understood.
Maine has one. Read about it here:
http://mainepooleddisabilitytrust.org/aboutmpdt.shtml see more
Question
What happens if I cannot account for parent's expenses when applying for Medicaid?
The answer will to some degree depend on the state in which you live. In Florida, for instance, even though applicants are asked on the... The answer will to some degree depend on the state in which you live.
In Florida, for instance, even though applicants are asked on the application about transactions over the past five years (in a rather general way), they are required to only produce three months of actual bank statements. New York, however, requires applicants to actually walk in with five years of financial records.
In any event, every state has hardship provisions. It is the rare case where respective agencies are trying to be punitive; they are simply looking for outright fraud. If your intentions have been appropriate (which it appears they are), and you have done the best you can given the circumstances, you should be fine.
Btw, I think it is a mistake to wait until all funds have been spent down before applying. Dad will still need cash available for his support when on Medicaid and you should look into preserving whatever he has left for his benefit. see more
In Florida, for instance, even though applicants are asked on the application about transactions over the past five years (in a rather general way), they are required to only produce three months of actual bank statements. New York, however, requires applicants to actually walk in with five years of financial records.
In any event, every state has hardship provisions. It is the rare case where respective agencies are trying to be punitive; they are simply looking for outright fraud. If your intentions have been appropriate (which it appears they are), and you have done the best you can given the circumstances, you should be fine.
Btw, I think it is a mistake to wait until all funds have been spent down before applying. Dad will still need cash available for his support when on Medicaid and you should look into preserving whatever he has left for his benefit. see more
Question
Can rehab cost and home health aide cost be reported on income tax return?
Yes as long as expenses are not reimbursed by another payor and, along with other eligible medical expenses, exceed 7.5% of Adjusted Gross... Yes as long as expenses are not reimbursed by another payor and, along with other eligible medical expenses, exceed 7.5% of Adjusted Gross Income. see more
Question
Who has more authority, an elderly spouse or person with POA?
GuvnaBruce: You will not find a Medicare agency to provide personal care/attendant services for your mother unless a physician first orders... GuvnaBruce:
You will not find a Medicare agency to provide personal care/attendant services for your mother unless a physician first orders skilled services.
Medicare only pays for intermittent skilled home care (physical therapy, occupational therapy, etc.) and while skilled services are being delivered some intermittent personal care may be provided (e.g., bathing twice per week). Physician orders typically do not run more than 30 or 60 days so this is not a solution.
If your parents do not have funds to pay for care, contact their local Area Agency on Aging (search this phrase followed by the name of your county) and ask them to do an intake. They will help them apply for any pubic benefits they may be entitled to and help identify appropriate services.
Be careful contacting Protective Services. The result (mom being removed from the home) may not be what you anticipated or desire. Better to let a professional social worker (from the above mentioned agency) have a go with dad first. see more
You will not find a Medicare agency to provide personal care/attendant services for your mother unless a physician first orders skilled services.
Medicare only pays for intermittent skilled home care (physical therapy, occupational therapy, etc.) and while skilled services are being delivered some intermittent personal care may be provided (e.g., bathing twice per week). Physician orders typically do not run more than 30 or 60 days so this is not a solution.
If your parents do not have funds to pay for care, contact their local Area Agency on Aging (search this phrase followed by the name of your county) and ask them to do an intake. They will help them apply for any pubic benefits they may be entitled to and help identify appropriate services.
Be careful contacting Protective Services. The result (mom being removed from the home) may not be what you anticipated or desire. Better to let a professional social worker (from the above mentioned agency) have a go with dad first. see more
Question
Should Mom cash in the second annunity ($25,000.) 2 years before maturity date and accept penalties?
Hi…the diligent Aging Care staff saw your question and asked that I respond which I am happy to do. First, for the benefit of my reply and... Hi…the diligent Aging Care staff saw your question and asked that I respond which I am happy to do.
First, for the benefit of my reply and for the benefit of others reading this, let’s be sure of the type of annuity you are speaking of and what you mean by the annuity “maturing”.
I am going to assume that you are speaking of a “deferred annuity” that operates very much like a bank Certificate of Deposit (CD) in that a lump sum is deposited with the insurance company and interest is credited to the account every year. (Annuities are issued by insurance companies, not by banks, and are not FDIC insured).
Also like some bank CDs, some deferred annuities guarantee the credited interest rate for a fixed number years, e.g., 3% for 5 years.
Because of their familiarity with bank CDs, many annuity holders call the expiration of this interest rate guarantee the “maturity date”. However when speaking of annuities this is an inaccurate term as the “maturity date” of an annuity is actually the “annuity date”; the date when the policy must be annuitized (a fixed stream of income begins). The annuity date is usually at age 80 or above.
Be all this as it may be, it appears your main concern is about the cash value of this annuity and its relationship to mom qualifying for Medicaid.
Understand that the “5 year look-back” only applies to asset transfers where a Medicaid applicant has gifted or given money in the prior 5 years and received nothing of fair market value in return.
So, if mom owns the annuity, does not give or gift any of it, and spends it down on her own health, maintenance and welfare, no penalty will be applied at application. (Making an investment is not considered an uncompensated transfer or gift).
Alternatively, if she were to gift the annuity or other assets now, and 5 years were to elapse before application, there would again be no potential penalty.
If at the time of application mom has more than $2,000 in assets (including the cash value of annuities and potentially other life insurance policies) you should consider methods of preserving assets above $2,000 so she will have those funds for her use while she is receiving Medicaid.
So, to quickly recap, mom can keep the annuity in her name and use the money for her benefit without concern for the “5 year look-back”. At the time of application she cannot have more than $2,000 in her name and the pro’s and con’s of doing something about that now should be carefully weighed. see more
First, for the benefit of my reply and for the benefit of others reading this, let’s be sure of the type of annuity you are speaking of and what you mean by the annuity “maturing”.
I am going to assume that you are speaking of a “deferred annuity” that operates very much like a bank Certificate of Deposit (CD) in that a lump sum is deposited with the insurance company and interest is credited to the account every year. (Annuities are issued by insurance companies, not by banks, and are not FDIC insured).
Also like some bank CDs, some deferred annuities guarantee the credited interest rate for a fixed number years, e.g., 3% for 5 years.
Because of their familiarity with bank CDs, many annuity holders call the expiration of this interest rate guarantee the “maturity date”. However when speaking of annuities this is an inaccurate term as the “maturity date” of an annuity is actually the “annuity date”; the date when the policy must be annuitized (a fixed stream of income begins). The annuity date is usually at age 80 or above.
Be all this as it may be, it appears your main concern is about the cash value of this annuity and its relationship to mom qualifying for Medicaid.
Understand that the “5 year look-back” only applies to asset transfers where a Medicaid applicant has gifted or given money in the prior 5 years and received nothing of fair market value in return.
So, if mom owns the annuity, does not give or gift any of it, and spends it down on her own health, maintenance and welfare, no penalty will be applied at application. (Making an investment is not considered an uncompensated transfer or gift).
Alternatively, if she were to gift the annuity or other assets now, and 5 years were to elapse before application, there would again be no potential penalty.
If at the time of application mom has more than $2,000 in assets (including the cash value of annuities and potentially other life insurance policies) you should consider methods of preserving assets above $2,000 so she will have those funds for her use while she is receiving Medicaid.
So, to quickly recap, mom can keep the annuity in her name and use the money for her benefit without concern for the “5 year look-back”. At the time of application she cannot have more than $2,000 in her name and the pro’s and con’s of doing something about that now should be carefully weighed. see more
Question
Question
I am the unpaid caregiver and POA for my mother; my daughter, sister and I live with her, should I be paying h...
What state do you live in? This rule applies in every state that I am aware of, you may want to check yours: If a personal residence is... What state do you live in?
This rule applies in every state that I am aware of, you may want to check yours:
If a personal residence is transferred to a child caregiver, and if the caregiver lives in the property and provides caregiving services that would prevent the elder from requiring nursing home care for a period of least two years (prospectively, not perspectively), the transfer will not be considered an uncompensated transfer and therefore not a penalty inducing transfer.
Yup, you read that correctly.
Given the circumstances, then, you would be well advised to have the property transferred to you sooner rather than later to get the two year clock ticking.
Keep careful records as to the caregiving services you are providing (maintain a "care log".
Try to get verification by non-interested third parties that you are providing such services.
Get in writing the advice of the physician who told you mom needed to be placed.
If mom does need to be placed before the two years expires you can always transfer the property back to her and it would then be an exempt asset as a homestead residence. see more
This rule applies in every state that I am aware of, you may want to check yours:
If a personal residence is transferred to a child caregiver, and if the caregiver lives in the property and provides caregiving services that would prevent the elder from requiring nursing home care for a period of least two years (prospectively, not perspectively), the transfer will not be considered an uncompensated transfer and therefore not a penalty inducing transfer.
Yup, you read that correctly.
Given the circumstances, then, you would be well advised to have the property transferred to you sooner rather than later to get the two year clock ticking.
Keep careful records as to the caregiving services you are providing (maintain a "care log".
Try to get verification by non-interested third parties that you are providing such services.
Get in writing the advice of the physician who told you mom needed to be placed.
If mom does need to be placed before the two years expires you can always transfer the property back to her and it would then be an exempt asset as a homestead residence. see more
Question
Can someone offer guidance in regards to liquidation of assets?
Here is perhaps a better idea: Your brother is permitted to retain up to $2,000 in assets. Withdraw or borrow all cash value from the... Here is perhaps a better idea:
Your brother is permitted to retain up to $2,000 in assets.
Withdraw or borrow all cash value from the policy except for $2,000 or under.
Draw up a Personal Service Contract (aka Personal Care Agreement) between you and your brother.
Use the cash from the policy to satisfy the Personal Service Contract lump sum in advance (this is a permitted transaction with respect to Medicaid eligibility).
Pay the tax due on the transaction from the transferred cash.
Transfer ownership of the policy now worth under $2,000 to you without Medicaid penalty.
Use the balance of the cash to pay the premiums on the policy going forward. see more
Your brother is permitted to retain up to $2,000 in assets.
Withdraw or borrow all cash value from the policy except for $2,000 or under.
Draw up a Personal Service Contract (aka Personal Care Agreement) between you and your brother.
Use the cash from the policy to satisfy the Personal Service Contract lump sum in advance (this is a permitted transaction with respect to Medicaid eligibility).
Pay the tax due on the transaction from the transferred cash.
Transfer ownership of the policy now worth under $2,000 to you without Medicaid penalty.
Use the balance of the cash to pay the premiums on the policy going forward. see more
Question
Medicare insurance will pay for a portion of oxygen and I will have to pay $27.00 a month. Can I get financial...
Apply for Medicaid. If you are eligible it will then be your secondary and pick up the balance.
Question
Dad's about to make a colossally stupid move with his money, reverse mortgage KNOWING its a scam!! What can I...
The risky part of petitioning for guardianship is that the court may decide that you are not the best choice as guardian. Wouldn't... The risky part of petitioning for guardianship is that the court may decide that you are not the best choice as guardian. Wouldn't that be a kick in the pants in addition to everything else?
I know this situation is emotionally fueled but if you want it to work then you have to be the "grown up".
Sit him down for a little heart to heart. Do this when things are going good between the two of you. Tell him that you will commit to him if he will commit to you. Put a care agreement in writing as to what services you will perform and what your remuneration will be.
Who has Power of Attorney and Health Care Surrogacy? Ask him to have these documents drawn up with you as attorney-in-fact or joint with another relative who will cooperate with you.
You will ultimately have to decide if you can handle it or not.
But if you go to court, be prepared to have to walk away. see more
I know this situation is emotionally fueled but if you want it to work then you have to be the "grown up".
Sit him down for a little heart to heart. Do this when things are going good between the two of you. Tell him that you will commit to him if he will commit to you. Put a care agreement in writing as to what services you will perform and what your remuneration will be.
Who has Power of Attorney and Health Care Surrogacy? Ask him to have these documents drawn up with you as attorney-in-fact or joint with another relative who will cooperate with you.
You will ultimately have to decide if you can handle it or not.
But if you go to court, be prepared to have to walk away. see more
Question
POA and Guardianship Question -- HELP!
The answer depends on the document which I am not privy to. However from what you have described, if mom properly executed a POA it is... The answer depends on the document which I am not privy to.
However from what you have described, if mom properly executed a POA it is valid.
If your father did not properly execute a POA, it is not valid.
There is no such thing as a "joint" POA.
Regardless of the validity of the POA, your sister can petition for guardianship at anytime. see more
However from what you have described, if mom properly executed a POA it is valid.
If your father did not properly execute a POA, it is not valid.
There is no such thing as a "joint" POA.
Regardless of the validity of the POA, your sister can petition for guardianship at anytime. see more
Question
My daughter has POA and my husband just died. She wants to put me in a rest home, can I change POA? I'm still...
Having Power of Attorney does NOT give her the ability to decide where you should live. It only gives her the ability to make financial... Having Power of Attorney does NOT give her the ability to decide where you should live. It only gives her the ability to make financial and contractual decisions on your behalf.
Some POA's do include healthcare provisions but those powers would only be with respect to medically related decisions if you were unable to make those decisions for yourself.
And yes, as long as you have capacity you can revoke the existing POA and have a new one drawn. see more
Some POA's do include healthcare provisions but those powers would only be with respect to medically related decisions if you were unable to make those decisions for yourself.
And yes, as long as you have capacity you can revoke the existing POA and have a new one drawn. see more
Question
My dad has Alzheimer's. I have POA and medical control, do I need guardianship?
The answer depends on the document(s). When you say you "relinquished POA" did the POA name you and your sister as in... The answer depends on the document(s).
When you say you "relinquished POA" did the POA name you and your sister as in attorney-in-fact or her as successor and you simply let her take over or did you mother have a new POA drawn?
If their was a new document drawn, what does it say? Are you named as an attorney-in-fact or successor?
If you are not happy with the current document and mom has capacity she can have previous powers revoked and have a new POA drawn. see more
When you say you "relinquished POA" did the POA name you and your sister as in attorney-in-fact or her as successor and you simply let her take over or did you mother have a new POA drawn?
If their was a new document drawn, what does it say? Are you named as an attorney-in-fact or successor?
If you are not happy with the current document and mom has capacity she can have previous powers revoked and have a new POA drawn. see more
Question
Mom has a joint account with my brother. Most of the funds are his. Would Medicaid be able to take that money?
katcorby: Do not become a joint account holder with your parents. Here is what you should do to be able to assist your parents with their... katcorby:
Do not become a joint account holder with your parents. Here is what you should do to be able to assist your parents with their financial matters:
1. If you do not have Power of Attorney (POA) go get one for each of them.
2. Go to the bank with your parents and file the POA for their account(s).
3. Title their bank account(s) as follows:
John and Jane Doe, Kat Corby POA, Kat Corby POD (Payable on Death).
Titling the account(s) in this manner accomplishes the following:
1. Prevents "commingling" of funds.
2. Allows you to assist your parents with their accounts.
3. Provides for account balances to pass to you without probate at their demise.
***Caution: Because you are disability it you may not want to inherit money directly from them if it will result in exceeding an asset limit for public benefits you are receiving causing you to lose those benefits. see more
Do not become a joint account holder with your parents. Here is what you should do to be able to assist your parents with their financial matters:
1. If you do not have Power of Attorney (POA) go get one for each of them.
2. Go to the bank with your parents and file the POA for their account(s).
3. Title their bank account(s) as follows:
John and Jane Doe, Kat Corby POA, Kat Corby POD (Payable on Death).
Titling the account(s) in this manner accomplishes the following:
1. Prevents "commingling" of funds.
2. Allows you to assist your parents with their accounts.
3. Provides for account balances to pass to you without probate at their demise.
***Caution: Because you are disability it you may not want to inherit money directly from them if it will result in exceeding an asset limit for public benefits you are receiving causing you to lose those benefits. see more
Question
Can a Health Care Proxy/Power of Attorney prevent me from visiting my dying Mother in Law?
Mango9... This is a really tricky situation. I would suggest that you contact the hospice provider and ask to speak to a social worker who... Mango9...
This is a really tricky situation. I would suggest that you contact the hospice provider and ask to speak to a social worker who might be able to intervene on your behalf and negotiate with your brothers. I have met hospice social workers who can work miracles. I wish you luck. see more
This is a really tricky situation. I would suggest that you contact the hospice provider and ask to speak to a social worker who might be able to intervene on your behalf and negotiate with your brothers. I have met hospice social workers who can work miracles. I wish you luck. see more
Do we need to continue the Medicare supplement and Plan D Rx insurance?
With respect to Medicare supplements, a Medicaid recipient may keep a Medicare supplement and the premium can be paid from the recipients income before Patient Responsibility is paid to the nursing home. You must receive approval for the premium payment from the Medicaid agency. The only negative consequence to retaining the supplement is that the premium may reduce income that can be diverted to the community spouse if there is one. Otherwise, since there is no other negative consequence to retaining a Medicare supplement and, depending on the state, perhaps some advantage, I generally recommend keeping the supplement. see more