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The more one knows about the dying process the easier it is to accept a person's passing.

Once I learned that when the body starts to shut down, the patient cannot take food because it would be very painful, the same with water.... and some patients aspirate which means the food/water goes into the lungs not the stomach.

People die on the same time table with or without Hospice. With Hospice there is less pain, and I rather be the patient using Hospice.
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All I know is my own experience, I knew my brother was terminal and I knew when he moved to a hospice ward he wouldn't be coming home again. In the first weeks he said that the days were long, but eventually when I would visit he wasn't awake. He was well groomed and peaceful (not hooked up to any machines, if I hadn't know he was dying I would say he looked well) and I would hold his hand for a half hour or so and go. I suppose there were lucid moments, I suppose he ate a little along the way because he lasted that way for many weeks. I wasn't there at the end because I wanted to give his wife and family her space (OK, I admit I was a coward too). Ever since I have wondered who gets to choose the select few who get to die in such a wonderful place.
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I have been away since my husband died in August. But, I guess I have to comment. If you find a great hospice program with good, caring nurses, and yo are satisfied with your loved one not being fed or receiving water and you can live with this, even though the loved one's death is not going to be a lasting relief. (It only seems like it for now. Dead is dead is for a very long time.) Then go for it. Kiss those nurses feet and be glad there is someone to walk all of you through the painful experience. But, if you do NOT feel comfortable with what is going on, say something. Don't stand against the wall biting your lip, hoping someone else in your group will be brave enough to say "Wait! This doesn't seem right!" Because, dead is dead is dead for a very long long time! You are staying here. Your loved one is going somewhere else. You cannot undo this decision! If you are brave and speak up, do not let your family more friends make you feel like "the troublemaker, the one who always has to cause problems or push." It is OK to not be OK with what is going on and to at least ask a question. It is better to apologize afterwords for being a little bit soft hearted or more consciencious than to be angry with yourself or broken hearted for the rest of your life. I only know what I saw on two occasions at the same exact hospital within a year and a half. Both patients weren't wealthy. I learned a very short time after their deaths that there was a new treatment for one and a place I could have probably gotten real help for the other. Of four of us, I now have only one sibling left. I found the Hospice program (in Houston. I know you have seen the place's name.) and the doctors to be arrogant and inaccessible. Worst part of my story is the hospital rep who talked us into signing him into it lied directly to my face about the treatment my brother would be receiving. No warm stories to tell here.
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My brother told me that my sister was discharged to go to a nursing home when she was leaving the hospital. He then told me she was going to a hospice, but he didn't want her to know. He told her she was going to a nursing home. He put on her obituary that she died in a nursing home. I think one has to be very careful when choosing a hospice. Also, more than one person should make that decision. When my sister went to a hospice, all of her medication , food and water were taken from her. They began to give her morphine and dab her mouth with a wet cloth. Within three days she became comatose and died three days later. When I asked the nurse why she wasn't getting food or medicine, she told me she could not discuss this with me, but, I had to ask her husband. My brother in law called her into the room, while I was there, to answer my questions. She told me that my sister was not comatose, but that her body just needed rest. She said she didn't need her medicine, or her oxygen. I think they gave her the morphine because without food, water and her medication, she would have just gone crazy. I don't know how long she had, but it was definitely more than 6 or 7 days. She had copd and went to the hospital periodically. Sorry for all of your losses. I am in the process of getting her hospital records to give myself closure. Hopefully, things are not as I see them.
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SueC1957, you stated that you are a hospice nurse and have witnessed dying patients. My mother died in a hospice facility and I am haunted by her manner of death. It was not peaceful, her eyes were closed and she was making these loud grunting sounds when I walked into her room, I immediately ran and got the nurse and asked what was wrong with her? The nurse stated that she was actively in the dying process. I held her hand and told her I loved her. She stopped breathing and the nurse listened to her heart and said she was gone, then a minute later she started breathing again, opened her eyes,looked at me for two seconds, closed her eyes and she was gone. It was in no way peaceful. Is this normal? Her only health issue was dementia and blood clots in the stomach and lungs. Hospice did medicate her.
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Oh...I have personal experience. My Dad did finally pass away last month. And no, I did not allow hospice to take away his meds. No, I did not allow hospice to come in and take away the decisions.

He way not uncomfortable. I am glad he remained in the care of his doctor and nurses. They gave the best they could within the restrickens Dad himself decided on years ago before dementia took him away. I am comforted to know he had his final days as he wanted them, not as hospice would have decided for him. Maybe the two would have been the same, but after reading the real life experiences here, I could not think it would be better for him to have the decisions taken away from him, his doctor, his family.
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Unless or until you are faced with the actual dying process, you have no idea how you would react, but I do know, that Hospice and Hospital Nurses are Angels, sent from God, at least, that was my experience with 3 dying parents! All 3 were relaxed, quiet, and slipped away comfortably and Peacefully, Thank God! To me, and being right there when all 3 left their human bodies, it was a very spiritual thing, and I will never forget how much those Nurses helped our families through the dying process. Never easy, but we do have to let them go with as much dignity and caring as possible. No one should be treated any less. I imagine things were a lot different and so much more difficult in years passed, and that is perhaps some people's loved ones have experienced, but medicine and the practice of Hospice has come a long way in helping ones through the dying process. Its important to be well informed and ask the difficult questions, so that you can be ready when the time comes, and help your Loved one through this as well. In my experience, all 3 were mostly asleep, and their bodies were quite naturally shutting down. It is was happens in the end. It doesn't have to be a scary thing, if you prepare yourself for the end of Life, Celebrate them! Honor them, but let them go in Peaceand Comfort!
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All too often what the hospice "plan" is and what actually happens seems to be very far apart.

Take he case of the caregiver here who had her Dad withdrawn from meds hat were helping him breathe. The decision making taken over in an aggressive manner.

I would not allow hospice to make the choices because I wasn't so sure they would make any decisions that allowed that those meds were in fact part of his quality of life. Granted, keeping them in use would also prolong his life....but that was the side benefit.

The theoretical use of hospice and the real life experience are too often too far apart
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Pattysue, I am a hospice nurse so I have a good idea of what goes on with dying patients. I'm confused. Your dad didn't want any meds, you didn't want him to have any meds but meds were given. Obviously your mom allowed the nurse to give meds to your dad. Was your dad alert at the time? Or had he slipped into the stage before death and was unable to communicate anymore? He must have shown signs of pain for the nurse to give morphine. We don't just give it because it's there. (Please see my previous post for "signs of pain".) If your father (or his Power of Attorney for healthcare-probably your mom) stipulated that he didn't want meds, why was he on hospice in the first place? The intention of hospice is to relieve pain, anxiety, clear up excess secretions, help with nausea and make the patient as comfortable as possible. As I've said before, we give 5mg. to 15 mg. of morphine for pain (occasionally a different narcotic, if the patient can't take morphine). The minimum lethal dose is 200 mg. Do you see now that the doses we give couldn't kill anyone. Your mother had the right to stop the medicine from being given, just as your father had the right to refuse it. However he probably would have been discharged as a hospice patient if he didn't want to use the service for what it is intended to do-alleviate pain and suffering. Since the Good Lord doesn't tell us the date of our passing, we never know when death is going to come. Patients can be alert and talking one day and gone the next, even without meds. Have you taken this issue up with the hospice you used? I would make an appointment and sit down with them and review his records. Nurses chart every hour or during their visit, so his decline should be noted in the nurse's notes. The admitting hospice nurse thoroughly explains the way hospice functions. If you didn't want to help your dad with pain and/or anxiety, why did you sign up? And, FYI, morphine does NOT shut down all body systems or we would have a bunch of dead post surgical patients in our hospital beds. It can slow down breathing and bowel motility but it does not shut down everything. Please look up morphine on Drugs.com and educate yourself about this narcotic. I'm sorry for your loss.
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So right, Babalou. Not looking forward to death AT ALL ;=), but a painful one? Not on my watch either (if one's own death can be said to happen on 'my' watch).

I wouldn't wish a painful death on anyone.
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Gee, im thinking that childbirth, if not prepared for, via Lamaze, Bradley, some method can be pretty darn painfil ( I had three babies with no meds). So, y'all think that our elderlt,ossibly demented parents should be left on their own to manage end stage cancer, copd, chf, and other diseases that rob them of breathing capacing and leave them in agony?

Not my mom; not on my watch.

If you think that is what your G-d demands, fine. Mine does not..
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Patty, your Dad would have passed at the same time frame with or without Hospice. What Hospice does is make sure the patience is not in pain. The morphine that is given is in such a tiny dose that it wouldn't stop anyone from breathing nor shut down any organs.

Yes, it would be nice for one to die the same way as God brought you into the world, but you yourself weren't brought into the world in extreme pain for weeks on end, that is the main difference.
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To answer Rosie about her dad the same with my dad he died within two days , he said i dont want to go the same way mom did and requested that he didnt want to given anything by hospice to me and my mom and within two days he was gone, people need to stop taking Gods place and taking people out of this world. I want to die on my own not by drugs given to me every hour until my organs shut down.
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My dad had lung cancer and he was the same way another lady commented on here, talking, happy, until hospice came to the house they put the medicine in the refrigerator and he said i dont want them to be giving me the medicine they gave to grandma. I told him i wont allow it and i had to go back to work on Saturday so i left on Friday, hospice came in to help my mom with him on Sunday and she called me and said he doesnt have long they broke the seal and started giving the meds to him and by Monday he was gone. It shuts all their organs down. I want to die on my own the same way God brought me into this world breathing and he will let me take my last breath, not by given morphine to stop me from breathing.
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cwillie: What I'm surprised at is that it doesn't apply to those to "mature minors", and the mentally ill, and in vegetative states due to brain trauma, and does not allow advance consent for patients with degenerative disorders like MS, AD, multiple strokes, in vegetative states ... I think Quebec has the best approach. Or Swizerland.
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Jingle, the Canadian law as it stands now only allows doctor assisted death for those mentally competent adults "suffering intolerably" and whose death is "reasonably foreseeable." I doubt there will ever be an option to make that choice on another's behalf.
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... constitutes AN unbearable life. Good grief ... are we ever going to get that edit button??!!
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And yet assisted dying just became legal in Canada. I wonder who would use it -- those whose lives were unbearable, probably; yet who's to say when another's life has become unbearable? Certainly not the OP, who might think the patient's life is unbearable NOW -- possibly the OP and patient would differ widely on what constitutes and unbearable life (I'm sure they would, in fact). The patients, while certainly considering their lives unlivable, may not consider their lives to be unbearable -- at least not yet.

And IMO the 'slippery slope' argument doesn't hold water here. In fact that argument doesn't doesn't hold water anywhere.

Such is the conundrum that is created by a society that makes assisted dying legal.
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We are often reading of very the very old with multiple co-morbidities who have been admitted to hospice, yet still their loved ones can not come to terms with their death. I really doubt that these individuals would ever consider assisted dying, even if it was available.
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It's a shame assisted suicide is only legal in Oregon,and assisted dying only in 5 states (Oregon, Montana, Washington, Vermont and California)
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Would not need hospice as much, if Assisted Suicide was legal in more states.
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W
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Agree with all the above comments. I'm totally pro-hospice and became interested in it long before it was a 'thing' in Canada. My mum was in a hospice, the nurses were lovely and gentle; in fact mum died as they were washing her.

I'm going to mention a book that I've recommended once before here. It's called 'Opening Heaven's Door: What the Dying May Be Trying to Tell Us About Where They're Going', by Patricia Pearson. It's excellent.

Speaking of heaven's door, Bob Dylan won the Nobel prize for literature this week. Remember 'knock-knock-knockin' on heaven's door'? Love that song.
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The ironic thing about this thread is that the OP (Rosie) returned to say she was pro hospice, I hope she doesn't mind that I re-post her words,

"Overall, the experience was very peaceful for me and hopefully for my dad too. I have informed my son that hospice is where I want to be when my time to leave this earth nears"
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To put this in perspective:

The biggest problem with this thread is the title. People are grieving. They've been through hell, then they see The RUSHED TO DEATH thread. So the nurses are murderers and away we go......

As long as the name of the thread remains the same it will keep erupting with the same old stuff. Like moths to a flame.

Great comments to all the above, BTW......
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Thank you Veronica, well put!

If you don't want your parents on Hospice, don't use that option! Instead, try to care for them yourselves, at home, and in pain, or worse, struggling to breathe, and agitated! It is sometimes a very scary thing to do, all on your own! The weeks and months leading up to your parent dying, having the care and professionalism from you Hospice worker's, it's priceless! They know what they are doing far more than any lay person!

In our situation with our Mom, and even though we thought we knew what was happening, our Hospice Nurse recognized signs of our Mom entering into the "active dying phase", that we did not, and I'm so glad we had them there to guide us through that last harrowing week of her life, transferring her to the Hospice Hospital was by far the best thing we ever did! Our Mom was more comfortable, and we were all able to be with her as much as we liked, which was always! But there was not the uncomfortable situation of having her dying in my sisters home, especially since she had several small Grandchildren about, and often. It was my sisters decision, and one we all supported! Thank God for Hospice!
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I was a RN in London at the time Dame Cecily Saunders was pioneering her work as a founder of the modern hospice movement in 1967. Dame Cecily was a RN who later became an MD. I actually had the chance to visit the actual hospice building she opened when transferring a patient.
Wikipedia has an excellent article on the beginnings of hospice care world wide which dates back many centuries.
Hospices world wide are based on the resources available which in many areas are sadly limited. My own husband saw them at work in Malawi where the supply of pain medications and other supplies are sadly limited and many people die in horrible circumstances often from Aids.
We are very fortunate in the USA with the services available from hospice for the dying. Never does a nurse have to say "Sorry you are in such agony but we have used up all the morphine" Nor does she have to work on horrible wounds etc without gloves or dressings or have bedclothes to cover the patients.
When my husband was leaving Malawi he offered the house cleaner his bedding, she just laughed and shook her head and said "I don't have no bed to put it on"
Stop bashing Hospice people and appreciate what is available to you. It is a privilege not a right. Remember Mother Teresa, she gave her life to helping people and many others have devoted their lives to creating the modern movement. Although supported by Medicare and other Insurance, not for profit hospices have to raise a large portion of their funds from volunteer contributions.
The nurses you accuse of being killers are paid far less than their contemporaries in hospital settings so why would a nurse choose to work with the dying if h/she just wanted to kill people. I assure you it is not for the money
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Sue, I'm adding my thanks as well. It's a relief to see a well rationed, explanatory post on a thread with so many complaints and accusations and sometimes with little actual reasoning or knowledge.

I would add from a non medical person's standpoint that medicine is a very complex field, and that includes the issue of dying. It takes a lot of time and determination to educate oneself.

Hospice also seems to be a scapegoat for a variety of issues, ranging from not accepting the dying process to uncontrolled grief to just plain unwillingness to educate oneself on this aspect of life and the termination of it.

Thanks again for offering a rational and educated opinion.
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Sue C Every time this thread is resurrected I tell myself I too won't answer but I just can't let the ignorance pass once again so my fingers get going so thank you Sue for your post.
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Sue C, I had also fled this thread until I read your post. Most excellent! I do some hospice volunteer work and it's hard to see all the misinformation that shows up on this never ending thread. IMO, hospice is possibly the kindest thing society has ever developed. Thanks for your insight.
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