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Gosh darn! I said I was leaving this particular subject and never coming back (due to people accusing us hospice nurses of KILLING your loved ones). But ya'll need to be educated. Signs of pain include; frowning, tight lips, making fists, moaning or groaning, perspiration, stiffened limbs/muscles, rocking back and forth, fast heart beat (heard with stethoscope or palpated in wrist), heavy breathing, faster breathing or holding the breath. Would you have recognized all of these? That's what we're trained to do. There are many reasons that an alert patient may not tell you they are in pain. Maybe they want to put on a brave front or not worry you. Believe it or not, they may worry about becoming "addicted" to the pain medicine! We 'read' body language to determine pain. The doses of pain meds are small but can be increased. Obviously, a comatose patient can't speak. But they can suffer pain. This is when we need to use our nursing skills to figure out their comfort level.

I just had a patient on Saturday and Sunday with terminal lung cancer. I knew death would be within a day or two. Her partner had witnessed parents dying in agony without medications and told me her partner WOULD NOT suffer any pain during her death! I was in constant contact with the patient during my 2 eight hour shifts and quickly medicated her when she told me she had pain. Patients also get very restless during the final hours, (maybe they 'sense' death is coming), so I gave her medication for anxiety also. It's common to have excess throat secretions (death rattle), so I gave her meds to dry that up, to make her more comfortable. Her partner had me call the doctor because she was still slightly agitated. I got an order for more anxiety med and an increase in the pain meds, if needed. I could tell that she had only a few hours left, as she was changing her breathing pattern. You might think that the meds did that, but it happens when there are NO meds given too. I've seen a lot of people die in 37 years and that's just how it is. So, to all of you who STILL think we kill our patients, DON'T sign your loved ones up with hospice and YOU manage their pain, anxiety and secretions yourselves. My patients partner will never forget the agonizing deaths of her parents, (Your situation in reverse).
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fregflyer

Doctor does state this. He/she has "freedom" as well,since once in Hospice, his/her services are no longer needed, and the patient and/or the patient's family won't see her/him again, unless they are there to witness the passing of the patient.

I know this from personal experience. Since, the doctor that treated my mom, was not at her bedside when she passed, his nurse practitioner was there instead.
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Virginias55, so sorry for your lost. There is no need to feel guilty, as your Mother would have passed in 7 days be it in the hospital, at home, or at a Hospice facility. It's nice to know with Hospice, she had a peaceful passing and wasn't in any pain. That in itself should erase that part of the guilt.

I know we all tend to go through the what ifs. I did when my Dad passed last month... all the if only I did this or that. In reality, nothing would have changed.
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Brokenheart I can truly say that I feel your pain. I lost my mother in March of this year. She went from the hospital directly to a hospice facility and was dead in 7 days. I, to this day feel that I made the wrong decision and live with the guilt everyday. I am deeply sorry for your lost.
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brokenheart, so sorry for your lost. Why do you feel you made the wrong choice?

One has to remember it is the doctor at the hospital that diagnoses that there isn't anything more medically one can do to help a patient to improve. Thus the doctor will recommend Hospice so that the patient can transition with very little or no pain. Hospice doesn't speed up the passing, just makes it comfortable for the patient.
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Yes! You took the words right out of my mind. I haven't even been able to express these thoughts verbally yet. My dear mother just passed away a couple weeks ago. She went from a hospital to a hospice and then passed away after not even 6 days in hospice. I have so many questions. I feel I made the wrong choice.
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Yep since I got mom on hospice I feel better and I think they are great..she is not in much pain is good..thanks you so much for your comment..
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Motherof5, you are correct, it's the brain that is sending mixed signals. With Hospice you know your Mom is comfortable and not in any pain which is so very important.
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So you said that they stop eating because the stomach cannot process the food ..right.. Well is it also the brain that is telling her she not hungrier...because she says that she not hunger..and she says she is full because she ate all day..but she ate maybe 5% food...
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Thank you for your kind words I dnt know that..that makes lots of since because sometimes when she eats just a little her stomach hurts..I just dnt want her to be in no pain and she is not..thanks again...
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motherof5, when someone stops eating that means that the stomach can no longer process food and that becomes very uncomfortable for the patient. You are right, sweets are the last to go. Sadly the body is starting to shut down, as to how long, that's hard to say. So sorry you are having to go through this with your Mom.

You might notice a rally with your Mom, the patient will start talking, ask to eat, will be alert.... vast majority of the time this rally only last for a day or two. My Mom and my Dad did the same thing. My Dad was sitting up in his recliner, watching TV, reading the newspaper, trying to eat a bit.... and the next day he was gone :(
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Zythrhr, it is the health insurance companies that determine how long a patient can stay in a hospital room. Normally a hospice patient will be taken either back home or moved to a nursing home.

Decades ago, some surgeries required the patient to stay for a week in the hospital. Today those very same surgeries are out-patient, meaning less than 24 hour stay in the hospital.
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My moms has been on hospice for 7 weeks so far and at first I dnt want it or dnt want to face the fact that she was there where she needs them..I am glad because it's gives more eyes on and they have been great..she loss 14 pounds and is at the point where she not eating much she is saying now that she dnt want any more sugar..which I found that very strange..hospice just keeps saying it the alz.ehich I know that..question how long can your body go with out eating much all day every day..and I thought sweet was the last to go..please help..
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Hospice may not rush death, Hospice in a hospital could, since the hospital wants that bed for someone else.
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The calming medicine xanax doesn't not take away the pain. And there comes a point where over the counter paid relievers no longer work. The stronger pain meds will make someone be completely out.

Don't forget, many of our elders will tell us they are fine, that they are in no pain, as they don't want us to worry, yet they are in some type of pain.

Both my parents went through Hospice, medically there wasn't anything more that modern science could do to cure the situation. I was glad both my parents had peaceful deaths, dying in their sleep.
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Thank you to everyone for sharing their experiences. I just left a hospice evaluation for my Mom. Over medicating is my main concern. My Mom is in no pain whatsoever but her right lung has cancer in it and therefore develops fluid in the pleural sac that makes it hard to breathe.the SNF said that she gets panicky when she has trouble with her air (and I agree) in between the pleuracentesis procedures where they withdraw the fluid. The recommended a small dose of xanax to calm her. When I am there I can calm her by talking with her. They dose her and she is completely out for 8 hours! Now when they're discussing Hospice I have the same worry. She is in NO pain and I worry about the comatose stuff for 'comfort'. I understand that morphine can relax the lung to let it expand, but the is a difference between relaxing and knocking someone out.
I'm not sure which route to take and I feel for everyone else in this same situation. It's a difficult decision and experience. Also, shame on the people that verbally abuse someone for their questions in this forum. We're all doing the best we can, this should be a safe environment.
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My mother had no terminal illness except for old age.
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Please note, a person isn't placed on Hospice unless they have a terminal illness. And we have to remember, depending on the illness or if the person had memory issues, they cannot tell us they are in pain.... but the Hospice nurses know the signs of discomfort, thus can give comfort medicine to help ease that pain.
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Sorry for your loss Mrsg169. I know only God 's hands can take away the gut wrenching pain when loved ones die suspiciously or non terminal on hospice. God is a merciful God when you leave your burdens at the altar .😇
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Hospice can read the signs of death quite well I believe. My mom just died two weeks ago. 97 years of age, but awake and not hungry. According to hospice she was in decline. Hospice then called me at home to tell me mom had 24 to 48 hours to live. I asked if I rushed over would she know me they said ,no she was
Comfortable but comatose. Comatose I said? Yes we have her on drugs for the pain. What pain I said my mother had no pain. Oh well, heavy breathing as she is close to death, it can be hard on them. I received a call a few hours later. Mother was dead.
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Rosie23 like your loved one my mother went from alertness to death in about 2 days after recovering from major surgery in 2 1/2 weeks. She had no terminal illnesses. No question in my mind that my mother lay helpless and euphanized under the POA without my consent. In God's hands now.😇
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God relieves all burdens if we believe. If not, we suffer His wrath IMO in my opinion. Leave your burdens at the altar and you'll feel God's blessing and healing. God promises that my mother is in The Kingdom of Heaven. Amen.
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dear loved ones, Its' been a year now since my dad died under hospice care. I don't believe it hasened his death, only helped with his comfort. I grieve for you all, and join me in a memory eternal of our loved ones, not grieve their pain and suffering.
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My mother died in a hospice and they gave her pain relief to ease her passing. The drugs may have quickened this by a few hours but I would sooner that then seeing her suffer. I remember her for the active years of her life not the last few weeks confined to bed. When my time comes, as it does for all of us, then I will happy to have hospice care if required and will willingly sacrifice a few hours of clinging to life in pain for a swift and more dignified exit.
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Cwillie, Maybe the administrators see this thread as educational. There have been some outstanding explanations and defenses of hospice on it, as well as moving positive personal experiences. Some hospice skeptics have been convinced to moderate their positions or take another look. And the most virulent hospice haters, on the whole, have shown themselves either to be trolls or simply unbalanced. It would be interesting to boil down the useful responses into an article, or collection or special feature, "How hospice helped my loved one --- and me."
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Well wouldn't it have made more sense to delete ALL the comments from the last couple of days, now you all are shouting at nobody and sound as if you have gone around the bend.
Oh why won't they just kill the whole thread.
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I'm sorry that my attempts at understanding and compassion are lost on you. Again, I'm sorry for your loss, but you misunderstand the purpose of this board.
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Sty, you say your dad had lung cancer. Walked to the bathroom and dropped dead. Did he have a heart attack? A stroke?

What "bean counter" was involved? It sounds as though your sisters, with whom you don't get along, had PoA for your father. Was your father able to participate in the discussion about hospice? In general, patients themselves need to sign off on the hospice decision.

Doctors need to certify that a patient, untreated for an incurable disease, has a projected life span of 6 months or less. Some folks die soon after entering hospice because they've waited until the very end of an illness to sign on. Others improve on hospice and "graduate"; they become ineligible because they improve.

I'm sorry that you don't accept the fact that your dad had a terminal illness, and that your defense against your grief is to lash out at your sisters and the hospice that cared for him. Unmedicated death from lung cancer is a terrible thing. Perhaps having your dying parents at home was simply not feasible. Please look a little more dispassionately at your dad's end of life desires, and get some help with doing the necessary grief work.
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Sorry, I mean radiotherapy. Not chemo.
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I think we might be talking at cross purposes. By "hospice", I mean end of life care which can be provided in a clinical setting or can be made available at home - as it was for my mother, although in the event she didn't require any medical or nursing interventions.

My FIL was admitted to A Hospice, as in the organisation with its own building, though. He had oesophageal cancer, non-operable, and had been discharged from hospital. He was in his late eighties, had had serious heart disease for many years, was diagnosed with MS at about 80, and had already rejected the option of chemotherapy to prolong his life.

Had he been returned home for care, he would have been under pressure 24/7 from family members to reconsider his decision. Two of them found it impossible to accept that he could not endure further treatment; and their constant distress would have given him no peace at all.

I think there are people for whom the seclusion of a good hospice is vital in helping them accept and prepare for their own end. Others will need the security of their own home. The only thing I can't think of is what sort of person would want to be in hospital; and yet until hospice services are more widely available that will continue to be where the majority end up, like it or not.
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