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my Dad is currently on hospice I question am I doing the right thing he is on Morphine and Ativan he is in pain but he is restless I wonder am I doing wrong for giving him these meds. Nurse came this morning says he may have a week or 2 How does she know with no meds he is agitated but he talks watches tv with them he only sleeps. I feel like im killing him. his legs are swollen and slightly weepy he is very much alivebut with the meds he is sleeping????
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My sister in law 3 years ago, my mom 2 years ago and now my 94 yo neighbor who I look after (kids are West coast). His wife needed some major assistance with her financial situation (set her up with a planner, lots of assets and no direction or clue he did everything). I had him sent in our ambulance to the hospital a month ago due to major issues at home. She was trying to care for him (former nurse) but it became too much. They found major cancer in him said 6 mos, I said 6 weeks, it was 4. Helped her to get him into hospice at home. Managed a lot of it with her. Then advised to get him to the facility (then the kids showed up after ultimatums set) after he was already there and I was taking here there getting her meals etc. Then a few days. Helped her with funeral plans got the veterans cemetery and the funeral home set up before the kids arrived (then they did all the finalization after it was all done). Scanned photos for them etc.... multiple daily visits before during and after. Kids (Adults) are due to leave tomorrow and leave her all alone..... I picked her up a safe for the house to keep valuables and papers in...... It is a good thing she has 2 very honest and trust worthy neighbors to help her. I take care of the outside of the house snow plowing, yard and repairs..... it is like a set of grand parents so I don't mind. But dealing with the hospice brought back a flood of memories (plus my buddy was there in the shame place 10 years ago). So I was a tad grumpy for the past couple weeks. Too many funerals in 2 weeks to deal with as well. Need a vacation!!!!
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I am with countrymouse...what did happen?
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Just? TGE, what's happened?
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I just experienced my third hospice in 3 years. Mporhine was the drug of choice. While I agree with the use and it does help them to be calm I still go back to my sister (a nurse) who looked me in the eye and said I was to agree with her that they give mom more morphine and to up the amount. I couldn't answer her at the time. I have an EMS background and I knew what the outcome would be while no one else in the room understood. She wanted me to be compliant.I knew what it would do. Mom was gone just her body hanging one. Was it the right choice? I don't know. She was going and I am sure it was painful somewhere. Her brain was gone but she knew we were there. She waited until people showed up and then all left the room and she departed. I am sure the morphine helped her go quietly and efficiently. Once in hospice at that point there is no going back. I am sure it helps them to the next part of life but in the back of my mind I question. If I was in the same position I am sure I would want a little push too but there is always that question. Hospice is hard but the people there are angels. Decisions have to be made.
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Babalou and Golden. I heartily agree with you both. I have been at the bedside of many hospice patients when their lungs filled with fluid and have used my only treatment which is the morphine. Enough to let them go peacefully but not to kill them outright .They are so scared when the fluid starts to build up and finally just bubbles out of their nose and mouth.
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Some time ago a girlfriend died of cancer which had metastasized to her lungs which had filled with fluid. They withdrew the fluid once but do not keep doing that. She died over a number of days gasping for air and begging for help. She was fully aware of what was happening. That hospital at that time did not use morphine. Some years later another friend was dying of cancer. They put him on a morphine drip and he quietly went to sleep - no struggling. Would he have lasted longer with it? Yes. Would it have been pretty? No.
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Have you ever been at the bedside of someone whose lungs are filling with fluid that can no longer be drawn off? They feel like they are drowning, mouthing "help me, help me" and nothing can be done. Go ahead, play God and condemn your loved one to suffer a terrible death. NOT my mom, not on my watch!!!
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she did not need to be put in that 'unresponsive' state under the morphine and ativan at that time..... I know she was eventually going to die , but she had alot more life left in her before she went to hospice , she only lasted less than two days there , and as soon as she got there they gave her the morphine /ativan combo and was comatose after that .... which was less than 48 hours, I know in alot of cases hospice does good , but in this one , I seriously doubt it, they acted like they didnt understand why she was unresponsive , when they had given her morphine/ativan.
OF COURSE she would be unresponsive ... but they didnt tell us about the drugs until we arrived to see what was going on.
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Wonderful post jeannie, saved me writing all the same things this morning. You are such a great advocate for hospice care.
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At 93 my mom was was alert, responsive and had a pain level manageable by Tylenol. She walked (with a walker, when she remembered it.) She liked the nursing home food and ate well. Then her hip broke. She was sent to a hospital. She was confused, unresponsive, in great pain. She couldn't eat. She could barely move her limbs. This all happened within a matter of hours.

People who say "my loved one was fine until she/he went into hospice" don't seem to realize that change can happen very suddenly. Yesterday they were walking and today they are not. But when you think about it, how could that change come on gradually? That they go through a period of crawling?

So the hospital strongly recommended hospice. Mom certainly looked like she was dying. She returned to the NH and hospice was brought in. Based on past experience she could not tolerate morphine but they kept her out of pain. They ordered a special mattress and special wheelchair. They had volunteers come in and fuss over her, doing her nails, reading to her, taking her to activities in the new comfortable chair. She used catheters. They recommended a two-person transfer with a mechanical aid when they thought she was strong enough to get up. Her appetite returned. She gained weight. Her hip is not repairable and could not support her, but she progressed so well that after a few months she was "kicked off" hospice care. She'll celebrate her 96th birthday this summer. She is more confused than ever, but she is content, has some friends, enjoys out visits, and clearly is not dying (though obviously she will within a few years, if not sooner.)

Did hospice rush her death? What earthly motivation would they have to do that? They only get paid for living patients. Same with the NH, who did a wonderful job of keeping her comfortable.

There is every medical reason to assume that people going on hospice are dying -- no matter how alert, etc. they were the day before. A doctor has to certify that as their opinion. So of course most people going into hospice care do die. Not because of hospice, but because of their disease, injury, etc.

But many people improve so much on hospice's good care that they no longer qualify for the program.

My husband was on hospice in our home for 5 weeks. They kept him very comfortable. I was in charge of administering his drugs. My only regret was that we didn't have them involved a little earlier.

The death of a loved one is a terrible thing to experience. We aren't always able to be rational about the traumatic experience.
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Hi soninlawOhio, How old was your Mother-in-law? What did they diagnose in her when fluid was drained from her lung. My Dad was 90 when they took fluid out of his lung and than sent him to hospice. Also on morphine and Ativan. died November 2, 2015. It put him in some sort of comma where he could not swallow. Then the speech therapist said that he could not swallow. Well who can swallow in a comma. So guess she was correct. Than they took him off of food and water and he staved to death in 10 days. Guess this is legal.
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I also feel that Hospice killed my mother in law, she was fine at the hospital , her normal self, talking , eating, etc. They moved her to Hospice that night after a 'procedure' to draw fluid off her lung, the next day she was unresponsive on morphine and ativan , the day after that she died. There is no doubt in my mind , they rushed her death, she did not need to be sedated like that so soon, It is TERRIBLE.
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I know this is an old post site but I was looking up that answer for myself because a loved one got moved to hospice today and is already on morphine drip and ativan. She was alert, responsive and not in pain yesterday at the hospital so why hit her with all that medication. A drip like that can kill you. So here are people expressing their grief and being unsure if they did the right thing and feeling guilty for it. There is some connection between hospice, heavy meds and early death. Maybe they weren't there at that exact moment because they had been up 36 hours straight with the family member and were taking a break.
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Grannycream, can you give us more information, such as were there other medical issues with your sister prior to the fall? And why was Hospice called for a routine surgery such as a hip operation? And how long after surgery was Hospice called?

Ativan is used to relieve anxiety, and the morphine is used to help with pain after surgery. I had major surgery years ago, and had a morphine pump while in the hospital so that I could adjust how much of the med I needed [to a limit].
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Yes, I feel as if in hospital hospice killed my sister, she fell and broke her hip, they did operate on her but she did not move much after operation....Ativan and Morphine was put in like an IV and she was gone in four days...... this was in Citizens Baptist Hospital in Talladega, Al..........I feel so dumb for standing by and letting them do this to my sister....
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I'm so sorry for your loss, Stephmerm. As you know - as you've just brutally experienced, in fact - so often chronic disease goes on and on in a stable way for many years, and you get used to living with it, and then suddenly everything tumbles down and leaves you dazed and wondering what the heck happened there. It must be awful for you, too, that you feel you were denied an opportunity to be with your father. So sad.

Perhaps the best thing to do is to give yourself time, both to let the shock settle down and to get in touch with the hospice team and ask for a clear account of exactly what took place.

What occurs to me, for example, though I don't know who was telling you about it of course, is that people do like to be upbeat about things when they're talking to a relative. So the outing with the neighbour and the big lunch, while they may sound as if he was comparatively hale and hearty, don't necessarily mean that all was well.

The lack of notification is unsatisfactory, but unless your father had given clear instructions hospice may not have felt comfortable calling you. It's also possible that they asked your father if he wanted them to call anyone and, in the moment, perhaps under stress or perhaps thinking that it was a temporary situation, he said no. Even if there was a more general understanding that you were to be kept informed, that still leaves room for communication glitches. Cock-up not conspiracy, in other words.

Take your time and get all the pieces of the picture together, and I hope there will be a reassuring explanation of what happened. Again, I'm so sorry for your loss, especially happening in this way.
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My father had copd. He had good days and bad days with his breathing. I talked to him January 25th. He told me his blood oxygen was 98percent which is great but he still had trouble catching his breath. A hospice nurse told him to up his oxygen. He was not on oxygen all the time however. I talked to him Thursday afternoon and he sounded groggy bu still coherent enough to tell me that hospice had been there for 2days and that they had given him morphine. However i found out later that that morning he had coffee with a neighbor came home and ate a big lunch and was not complaining about his breathing nor has he ever been in pain while hospice was with him. I got a call friday that he couldnt stand and was glassy eyed. Hospice called in a bed and at 8:23 he was pronounced dead. Something just does not sit right with me about this. He lived in Florida at the time of his death and i live in idaho. I dont understand either why no one notified me of his hospice care going from 1 visit a week to 24 hour care. I certainly would have flown down ti be with him and be his advocate. Does any one else find this all a little off?
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Thanks for the information. My Dad was not in pain when he went into the hospital. Never walked again after admission. Said he needed bed rest. Three days into bed rest he could not move. Put a 90 year old man on bed rest for 3 days and that is the end of him. Talking about a man who roller skated every week from age 14 to
age of 87 when he fell and broke his pelvis in 2 places. That was when we had to take his roller skates away. I will look up the Medicare covering hospice, w history in 1986. I am interested. Would like to really know when hospice started the Morphine/Ativan combo. Thanks again so much for posting and I am so sorry that your Dad died so young. That had to be very hard. They started to administer Morphine 24 hours after diagnosed with liver cancer. He went into a comma like state and could not move his legs or arms or anything. But when they put the Ativan under his tongue tears would come down his face. I was the one who signed the hospice papers so I blame myself. I never saw my Dad cry before. Once again so sorry about your situation.
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126Cher, I am so sorry for your loss. How wonderful you had him for 43 years after the hepatitis C diagnosis. He must have been getting good care and also have had a strong constitution.

Medicare began covering hospice care in 1986. It really has a very interesting history in this coutry. (You could look it up.) Obviously this was long before the affordable care act. I know that in your grief you may not be thinking clearly, and tht is understandable. But I am hardily sick of people blaming anything and everything they don't like about health care and insurance on the affordable care act, when they have no idea how their complaint is related to the act at all.

BTW, my 78 yo father died 3 days after lung cancer was diagnosed. He was not on hospice and he did was not given morphine. Cancer does what cancer is going to do. We can try to intervene to make the patient more comfortable, and in some cases to extend life for a short period. "Try" is the operative word here. We are seldom in control.
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Believe that morphine and Ativan cocktail is given by hospice, paid by Medicare to get rid of the elderly to reduce Medicare expenses. Afraid it is part of the affordable care act. Very depressed over death of Dad on Nov. 2, 2015. Will be haunted by that for a long time. Gave him morphine and Ativan right after he was diagnosed with liver cancer and than went into a comma like state less than 24 hours after liver cancer was confirmed, he had hepatitis C for years since a blood transfusion in 1969. Diagnosed with hepatitis C in 1972. Lived fine for 43 years until age 90 when he started to get symptoms of liver cancer. Believe he died more of morphine than liver cancer. So sorry
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My husband did not want to be sedated, we were told because of his insomnia, he would sleep well for a few days. The morphine Ativan cocktail was the last thing he needed, cuz it made his breathing slower and harder. He was not supported by a catheter and had to be helped to stand to urinate in the receptacle. He kept saying "Help Me" so I knew something was wrong. He wanted to move so he would not succumb to the drugs. He was never diagnosed as 'dying' or 'about to die' - and Hospice just jumped him in my opinion. The only reason we asked the doctor to de-activate his pacemaker, because he wanted to be in a special nursing retreat which did not accept active pacemakers! The doctor said "hospice can do that' - I'll set it up! And thanks Heavens the fire department took him to hospital after I revoked Hospice services - they saved his life! They could not believe he was given morphine and Ativan given his health and heart history. I have done nothing about this. Even after he was in hospital for two days, he had a terrible seizure and almost died, jumping all over the hospital bed. I guess that was from the drug cocktail experience. He was talking, laughing, communicating with hospice nurse who "admitted' him to the program. They never asked, do you want to live or die? And the doctor who wrote the RX never met or talked to him either!!
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Thank you for your advice and words of comfort. I just feel that she would have had more time if she didn't go to hospice. I wish he would have kept me informed and I wouldn't feel so bitter towards him. I just want the records for myself to find out what the other choice was. Hopefully, he made the right decision. Thanks again.
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I can't help but add concurrence to Countrymouse and Veronica's advice. Carol, I am very sorry for the loss of your sister. I cared for my mother in hospice & throughout her final moments. She, too, had COPD as well as lung cancer. I was instructed by hospice nurses to provide comfort measures-- morphine and Ativan at the last stage, in order to keep mom from suffering through the pain and from having seizures from mets to her brain. I was there, and I know firsthand, you do your very best with what you have at the time. I'm not a healthcare professional, only a loving daughter who needed to make sure that mom passed in peace and comfort. Was she over-medicated? Probably. But I know for sure, she was not in pain or distress, and she passed knowing her family was there with her. We should all be so lucky! If your BIL was in the same situation, I sure he, too, did his best. We never get a rehearsal for these types of things, and cannot anticipate what will happen or what we would do-- you are just in the moment trying to do your best. Communication, too, is very difficult, as the situation can change rather quickly, minute by minute! 3 months ago, I was there again, this time with my dad as he died from pancreatic cancer. He was admitted to the hospital and surprised us all when he was gone in less than 24 hours. He too, was heavily sedated, and I am trying not to 2nd guess his care. My advise is to focus on your sister , her life, & the love you two shared while she was alive. If it helps, draw comfort from those who also loved and lost her, & try not to dwell on the details that led to her inevitable passing.
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Carol end stage COPD is very distressing and it is standard practice in the hospice setting to give liquid morphine to relieve the perception of breathing distress. This will probably also have the effect of making the patient extremely drowsy. We want our loved ones to feel comfortable and not over medicated but sometimes one just cancels out the other so the lesser of two evils is followed.
Do not give yourself additional pain by pouring over those medical records. Be comforted by the fact that your sister was in a safe place,well cared for and was able to pass peacefully. Grieve for the loss of your sister but don't second guess the decisions her husband made.
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Carol, I'm so sorry for both your loss of your sister and the way it happened.

It was your brother-in-law who made the decision to place your sister in hospice care, yes? - rather than your brother?

Perhaps he hoped it was temporary. That would be a misunderstanding of the term hospice, but isn't it possible that he misunderstood? That he was thinking wishfully himself?

The thing about all of this mis-communication, which has been so additionally hurtful for you, is that people do just get things wrong. I don't suppose your BIL was thinking very clearly or focusing very well himself. I don't suppose your niece will ever know whether she and her father picked the right choices when they were asked to make difficult decisions.

One would have thought that, ideally, they could have included you in the process better. They might have considered that you would like to be kept more fully informed, and allowed to have a voice when it came to those difficult decisions. Yes, it's true: they did not behave thoughtfully towards you. But can I just say gently that at the time they must have had other, bigger things on their mind. They were not thinking about you, or your feelings. Given the circumstances, can you forgive them for that?

When you say you are trying to get the medical records, how are you going about it? If at all possible, do it with the blessing of your BIL. Frame it as a request for information that there is no reason to withhold from you, rather than as a potential dispute with him.

I hope that you do get hold of the complete information, and I hope that it will give you clarity that will help you come to terms. But I want to add a word of caution to that.

Be very clear about what you really do want from this information. Wanting to understand exactly what took place is natural, and I hope that understanding will be helpful. But be careful not to let it lead to second-guessing any decisions that were made. You will have the benefit of hindsight, don't forget. It wouldn't be fair, but it could be very damaging, to go on to challenge your BIL's choices. You already know that your niece is struggling with 'what ifs' - if you add a dissenting voice now, you could really hurt her.

One last point: that other choice she mentioned? In the end, when it comes to the end of a life, there may be two or more choices - but none of them is any better than the others. We run out of good options.

I wish you success in obtaining a proper, clear explanation of what took place, and hope it will bring you comfort.
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My sister had copd which led to other complications. When my brother put her in a hospice, he led me to believe this was a temporary situation. She was alert the first two days, then, she seemed to be in a coma. When I asked him about this, he said her body was just resting. When I asked the nurse, she told me she couldn't discuss this with me because she could get in trouble. But,I had to ask her husband. He kept telling me she was not being medicated. She was taken off all food, water and her copd medication. He told her she was in a nursing home, not a hospice. He was her medical advocate and made her medical decisions. They swabbed her mouth and asked me to leave the room when they gave her oral medication. I don't blame the hospice--they did their job. I just wish he would have told me the truth. My sister died 8 days after entering hospice. He left me a message that she had died. He didn't even give me the correct time of death. I wish I was there with her when she died. She died alone. Her daughter and husband left the hospital early that day. He put on her obituary that she died in a nursing home. Thanks for listening. I am now trying to get her medical records--I just want to know what happened. Her daughter told me that she was wondering if they made the right decision. I wonder what the other choice was.
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Hospice is paid for by medicare and some private insurance. No ins and too young for medicare then you pay on sliding scale and it is very little. A not for profit is required to supplement it's funds by such things as plant sales and craft bazars. Memorial contributions are also a big source of funds. Medicare pays a set amount per day which often does not come close to covering the patient's expenses, especially given the price of drugs and equipment. Equipment is usually rented but things like commodes have to be brought outright and can not be reused for another patient because of infection control laws. It is a real problem making ends meet. So given the financial constraints it is in fact better to keep patients alive rather than hasten their end. When hospice care for someone in a hospital or nursing home the hospice has to share the daily allowance with the facility.
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Hospice is paid for by medicare. And a non-profit hospice should not be turning any one away. The one I am using certainly never once mentioned money and I believe they don't ask for any. But then not all hospice providers are equal. It's a sad state of affairs when profit overwhelms compassion.
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I understand the toll it takes on you physically and emotionally trying to fight city hall. In heath "care" you encounter people who are pure evil, networks and cover ups you never imagined, and unspeakable cruelty and onslaught against you. If you've been there, you understand. If you've never been there, you probably can't imagine I'm telling the truth. These people are not professional. You take it to the higher ups andthey bounce it back to the very people you have the problem with. they take it out on your loved one and they threaten you. You fight with all the strength you can muster, but it feels paralyzing. And as far as finding a "better" place is concerned, they falsify medical records to blacklist you, and remember, the new place has to accept you. If it looks like you don't have much money, or you will be any trouble at all, they just won't. And that's a fact you have to navigate. I'm talking about nursing homes here, but I'm sure it applies to all.
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