Follow
Share
Read More
This discussion has been closed for comment. Start a New Discussion.
Oh how awful Deb...that is such an awful thing to have had to go through...Sometimes I wonder if I have gotten the way I have because of all the things that transpired through Mama's ordeal..and all of my family members have pretty much disappeared....not that any of them ever appeared in the first place....but I know how hard it is when you have what seems an entire hospital staff trying to intimidate you and it is a time when you feel so worn out and weary anyway.....I think I finally got so weary I just didn't care anymore what I said or did and the last time a hospital tried to put my Mama out, and she still had pneumonia...I started screaming at them and I told them I was about to lay my A$$ down in the hall and have a fit for all the floor to hear if they even tried it ....they looked a little shocked....even told me they would call the police...I told them go ahead and do it and I would go on right now and lay my butt down and start ....they never bothered Mama or me again.....but how sad that we literally sometimes have to practically threaten someone to get them to care for our LO....it's not right....I'm so sorry
(0)
Report

Dear debinhouston: So sad to hear about your brother's situation. Did we have a basic human rights? If you are sick they can not throw you out of the hospital. This country needs to take care their own people before they throw away millions of dollar in helping other country. This is just very sad to know the hospital is going to deliver him on his hospital bed to your mother's front yard, so cruel and so in humane. I like to see and believe this country people has a decent heart to take care and to treat the elder and the sick ones. Am I been naive.
(1)
Report

Deb, IMHO, denying someone nutrition when they are hungry and want it is not hospice but euthanasia. The only common excuse for not allowing fluids **by mouth** is risk of aspiration pneumonia, and maybe if a GI condition such as pancreatitis or an intestinal obstruction would be aggravated but then you need to give them some other way unless the person is not thirsty and mild dehydration is going to let them be more comfortable with fewer secretions. Sips or drinks of water can typically be given as part of a "Frazier Protocol" in any event with few exceptions in cases of aspiration. You were lied to about the threat of delivering him to the front yard when he could not be cared for too. It is hard to question people who act like they know what they are doing, and you are just unspeakably and irrationally out of line to question them...some places that is the health culture to form that sort of "united front" and intimidate people into doing what they are most comfortable doing, usually some kind of a cookie-cutter approach to it all, instead of working with people individually. Just my $0.02 not knowing any other details, and very sorry this happened to you and your family.
(4)
Report

The concept of hospice seems like a good one. As I understood it, when hope was running out, it was a solution that could provide your loved one with a more peaceful, calmer way to die. We had a family meeting with the hospital hospice coordinator. It was a new program for their hospital. She told me my brother was very ill and that they thought this was the best solution. He was an alcoholic who had very limited insurance and had been battling a severe stomach infection that we hadn't known about. She told me to my face that sometimes people get better when they get away from all of the hospital machines and that he would still get fed through the feeding tube and would receive his treatment for the infection. At the same time a hospital representative had called my older brother in Dallas and said we had to do something or they would deliver our sick brother in his hospital bed to my mother's front yard at her house and it would be our problem then. What were we (I) going to do? I didn't have the resources to take care of him. I am a teacher and we had a daughter in college. I had my mother hospitalized at Methodist downtown with heart issues. But had I known that I would end up sitting there watching them starve my brother to death. Not allow him to have any fluids. See him reaching toward the sink and looking at me like "help me." Right in front of me. I would have done something else. The experience we had was never what I had always heard about hospice. What makes the situation even more heart breaking is that within a year, doctors developed a new treatment program for the stomach infection that probably would have saved his life. And then something similar happened within a year and a half to my younger sister. Same hospital. I think there needs to be some kind of protection for patients and families. I don't want to sue anyone. I just want my brother and my sister back. But maybe if we had made trouble, maybe my sister would have had a better experience and at least she would have survived. But let me be very clear - I was lied to. Unfortunately, when someone is dying we are too polite. I watched my older brother and my sister and thought maybe I was mistaken, didn't understand something. I wish I had fought. Screamed. Insisted on trying something else. I just never thought he would really go. And I was so tired by that point. While hospice is a good idea, I still believe we need to ask ourselves some tough questions about it.
(1)
Report

If anyone is interested, and has access to the BBC Radio website, at midday UK time Tuesday on Radio 4 there is to be a discussion on end-of-life care as part of the You & Yours programme - you might be able to download it at a more civilised time of day later on. Their participants are usually quite lively so I'm hoping there'll be some constructive exchanges.
(0)
Report

I have commented on this thread a couple of times...and all I wanted to say, probably repeating myself that our Hospice team has been invaluable to me as a 24/7 caregiver, caring for my Mama alone. They have provided not only palliative care for Mama but comfort for her and for me. At no time have they ever made me feel that anything was being forced on me and when different courses of action were thought to be necessary, they always talked WITH me and not TO me, and helped me make the best decision for Mama. I am blessed in that my Mama is still with me, but I do understand that so many times, anytime we lose our LO's, there is a human tendency to feel that we should have done more, could have done more, what if this, what if that...and all of it is so often associated with those horrible phases of grief in losing our LO....

I totally understand all the questioning, worrying and living in that grief, but ultimately, I think in most cases, there is simply nothing that could have been done that would have kept our LO with us...sometimes it is just harder to accept for some people....

I can't imagine that our Hospice provider would ever do anything to lessen the amount of time I have with Mama...their goal has always been and continues to be her comfort and care...and helping me feel less alone through it all.
(6)
Report

I once had the privilege of helping someone review records to understand why they lost a beloved younger sibling, and I was grateful to be able to help in that way in a case where we really could not do that much else. So, I want to offer again, however we could arrange to do it, if someone does get records and wants me to, I would review and interpret them with you/for you. I feel terrible because I know the answer to the original question could very well be yes in some cases, though for the most part, care providers are not evil profiteers trying to harm people and families. In my experience, for every time a provider actually does something incorrect or bad, there are at least a dozen times they have been misunderstood instead.

That would be informal as I am not a geriatric or hospice expert by any means, but I am fluent in medicalese and its translation to English.
(4)
Report

Exactly, CountryMouse. How many readers have begun to second guess their own decisions because of this thread.?

Not a one, I hope.
(3)
Report

I don't mind the bitching, or the hand-wringing, or to put it more charitably the unresolved mourning. It's the recruiting that bothers me. Otherwise I would sadly leave them to it, having given up trying to help.
(3)
Report

I have clicked to "unfollow" this thread numerous times, but somehow I just keep getting sucked back in. Perhaps it is the part of me that makes me a caregiver, I want to help these poor folks that are so obviously in pain. I also feel compelled to add some balance for new readers to consider. But I agree, the endless re-hashing of the same statements is tiring.
(2)
Report

VStefans, Windy, Maggie, Babalou and anyone else who's posted similar thoughts in the past - I totally agree.

This thread has dragged on and on and on and has become very rhetorical. Complaints and innuendos have become the dominant theme.

If these folks are suffering, as Maggie puts it, "guilty consciences", then they either need to seek therapy, find some way of addressing their guilt, and learn to move on. Complaining ad infinitum (or rather ad nauseum) or attempting to shift blame isn't solving their problems.

While I understand that hospice can be for respite on some occasions, it is primarily for end of life care.

If they feel there was negligence, then get the hospice records, have them reviewed by a malpractice attorney, or contact law enforcement. Or, just "ferme les bouches" (shut your mouths). Don't just keep on bitching. It doesn't solve anything, any more than spinning the wheels of a car stuck on ice. You don't go forward or backward; you just keep spinning.
(4)
Report

Amen, Maggie.
(1)
Report

What's interesting is that hospice ONLY steps in when either the patient or his designated or legal representative agrees. It's not mandatory. It's pushed on NO ONE. If the person themselves asked for hospice, they knew exactly what that meant...or family should have explained it. If their representative elected hospice without knowing they were going to help their loved one die peacefully? Well, shame on THEM.

All these guilty consciences need counseling.
(6)
Report

Ladee......opps
(0)
Report

Laden, I find this discussion neither painful or disturbing, only a bit tedious. Over 500 posts, most of which are about the same: hospice is horrible and kills people too soon. I agree that people need to vent, I've done my share on this forum, but we can also disagree. So with 500 posts and counting that hospice is bad, does anyone have a better idea?

I would think if hospice was on the murdering rampage suggested by many on this thread there would be lots of press, congressional investigations, high profile lawsuits and right wing politicians making hay and passing bills left and right to shut down hospice just as they are with planned parenthood.
(3)
Report

I am very sad to see this become a forum where people come to reinforce the belief they need to have, for reasons I personally do not totally understand, that their loved one was murdered rather than died of their condition. Horselady, I know you said you won't be back but I am writing anyways - please pick up that phone and talk to the hospice people. You are setting youself up for total estrangement from your whole family and for bitterness that does not need to be. Saline is not a drug. You are guessing by volume of an infusion - which could have been at a different concentration - that more was given than you gave and you do not even know for sure what was given. You would need to know how many milligrams, not how many mls. She had no urine output but because you did not see skin mottling you are assuming that meant you had more time - not necessarily true!! Please, don't be another case in point about how human beings can take a bad situation, no matter how bad, and make it worse. If you find out for sure that something was done wrongly - I will be behind you in pursuing it 100%- I think all of us will be! I am personally totally against euthanasia and assisted suicide for all the reasons you state and then some. I know this is a horrendous time for you, you wanted and needed more time to adjust and accept the inevitable, but don't let the overwhelming emotions lead you into permanent regret and fixation on something that may not have happened, at least not the way you percevied it. I don't know how to say this - I don't blame you or want you to feel bad - I just want people to be able to save the anger for the situations where it can be used for positive change, directed against its rightful targets, not as a thing to be held onto despite any evidence to the contrary and end up poisoning you and yours.
(5)
Report

Windy .. I daresay that if this discussion disturbs you, you might want to stop reading the thread, it seems painful for you. Instead ... start another one, with your question? I think it's a valid one and deserves some answers. I also think that people need to vent and share their experiences.

LadeeC
(1)
Report

I keep hoping this thread will run its course, but it just keeps on going............I have some questions for all those who have bad experiences with hospice....

What is your alternative? Hospice should be against the law? No morphine , no way no how? How should the terminally ill die? Should we ignore a person's end of life directives because we don't agree?

Im not interested in any more horror stories about hospice murdering people. You've all made your point. I Sympathise with all who have lost loved ones. I am no stranger to death in my own family. But it's time to put up or shut up. If not hospice, what then?
(1)
Report

And I could just hear their explanation about what they are doing, if they took the time! There just IS NO REASON TO GIVE THAT MUCH OF A DRUG TO AN ALREADY COMATOSE PATIENT!
I'm done now. I won't be back. I need to try to move on. Thanks for all the discussion.
(1)
Report

I didnt say I didnt want her to have nothing. If you would read my posts, I was giving her both drugs at home. I agreed to continue those drugs in patient. But not THAT much!
(0)
Report

Horselady, I'm extending my sympathy on the loss of your mother, I wanted to say something sooner but was at a loss as to what to say.
I'm sorry so many are in anguish over their loved ones death. I have not faced this yet with my mother and I chose to not be present when others in my family passed on.

It seems a lot of the problem lies in lack of communication between medical staff and family, and also our own preconceived notions of what dying is actually like.
I know that medical personnel are busy, and even tasks at end of life become somewhat routine, but if it was habitual procedure to explain every move they make in the final days and hours I think there would be less blame sent in their direction and fewer families would feel torn apart.
And many of us have Hollywood notions of the end of life from all those deathbed scenes on screen, even those who have perhaps sat with one or two other loved ones can not be prepared for the varying realities of the dying process.
I have tried to read everything I can find surrounding this in order to prepare myself, I would like to encourage others looking ahead to watch a you tube video recommended by others on this site;
Gone from my sight, by Barbara Karnes
(1)
Report

Horselady, why do you not want to take the hospice people's calls? They might have something to tell you that you would want to know, mightn't they?
(1)
Report

Pam's right. What joy is there seeing a loved one in absolute agony? Morphine actually makes breathing easier which results in a much less painful death.
(3)
Report

If you have ever witnessed death without the morphine, you might change your mind. The head arches back, there is gasping and moaning and limbs twitching up and down. It's the most hideous grand mal seizure you ever saw. Give me the drugs. Please.
(3)
Report

I , and I think, everyone here, understood that our loved ones were going to die soon. I accepted that. I knew what to look for. But when a person is already comatose, with a slack jaw, drooping ears and nose, no urine output, but no skim mottling at all on her feet, why would anyone in their right mind give a massive injection of ativan (or anything, for that matter)?? She could have been allowed to die naturally. Was it convenient that the last dose was given after the last family members left to go back home? Did they overhear my sister saying she hoped mom went quickly? Despite what people want (or think they want), it isn't up to the medical personnel to decide when death comes. It wasn't up to my sister and her work schedule and what was convenient. It killed me, not only watching her moment of death, but the talk of her going to heaven, being with angels, and all the other platitudes that mean nothing. My father is practically overjoyed at his new found freedom. Everyone is planning her memorial, buying fancy jewelry in which to store her ashes....it makes me sick. I refuse to be apart of it, knowing what I saw done in those final hours. I cared for that woman like she was my own child, and her last days were ripped away from me by people who had no qualms about taking what little life she had left and squashing it.
I have already written to the hospital director. The hospice people have been trying to call for days, hand I just let it go to voicemail. I doubt anything will ever come of it, but I will tell everyone what happened, and write to every person I can, in hopes that others wont have this happen to them. I will never be the same.
(1)
Report

The elders who were not sick were put on death pathway simply because of their age only.Most were dying and some sick but not dying and were rushed to their death. America also has been known to do this with hospices. There was no special name for what the medical staff did to my mom and she was mostly killed by hospital staff just finished off by hospice during the last hour of her life.
(0)
Report

Since Flowgo's brought it up, here is an article published in last week's British Medical Journal about the Liverpool Care Pathway, headlined "What next for care of the dying?" It is by Katherine Sleeman, who is a clinical lecturer in palliative medicine at King's College, London.

'Last month the National Institute for Health and Care Excellence (NICE) published new draft guidance on care for dying adults. The guidance serves partly to fill the gap left by the Liverpool care pathway (LCP), which was phased out in a storm of controversy after the 2013 Neuberger review.

' The well intentioned aim of the LCP was to identify the essential elements of good care from hospices [note: in the UK hospices are specialist care centres designed as an option for terminal patients; they're not the same as the US concept] and transform them into a series of prompts to guide professionals in hospital and community settings. Given that the new draft guidance is almost 300 pages long, one can understand why the Liverpool team thought that condensing this information into a few pages would be helpful. However, the LCP ultimately failed, not because the essential elements were wrong, but because of the way it was used. [personal note: I would add, because of the way it was understood and communicated, i.e. extremely badly] How can we avoid repeating this mistake?

'I recently wrote a paper, published in BMJ Open, which aims to help us understand what went wrong with the implementation of the LCP. We used qualitative data collected from 25 health professionals, who were interviewed about their experiences using integrated care pathways for the dying (including the LCP and its derivatives). Most of the interviewees described benefits of using these pathways, but they related almost exclusively to processes of care and were experienced by the healthcare professionals themselves. Although intended as guides, pathways were often interpreted as protocols. Surprisingly, interviewees did not speak of integrated care pathways as directly benefiting patients or their families by helping to ensure better outcomes in death of bereavement. When patient outcomes were mentioned, it was in the context of harm.

With hindsight it seems extraordinary, if these views were representative of mor widely held opinions, that the lCP became so rapidly and universally accepted. Our data provide insights into how this may have happened. Integrated care pathways for end of life care seemed to have symbolic value for healthcare professionals. They legitimised death as an outcome, provided a positive focus to care, and were used as a signal to herald the change from active to palliative treatment. Patchy education in palliative care may have created a vacuum that allowed a tool for which there was no strong evidence to become accepted and valued.

'Our study provides important messages for the successful development and implementation of future tools to guide care of the dying. Firstly, comprehensive education and training in palliative care is critical. A Royal College of Physicians audit recently found that mandatory training in care of the dying was only required for doctors in 19% of trusts. [note: a "trust" in this context is an operational organisation within the National Health Service]. Without such training, staff are unlikely to be able to use any pathway well or to recognise when it is being used poorly. Secondly, our study highlights the importance of grounding any future tool around patient and carer reported outcomes. Lastly, the study demonstrates the importance of collecting qualitative data in developing future tools that aim to improve care of the dying.'

Flowgo's concern being that her not-terminal mother was intentionally killed by healthcare professionals for their own reasons, it falls outside the scope of the debate on what constitutes good end-of-life care. [You believe that your mother was fit and well yet for some reason killed by her hospital team, yes, is that a fair summary, Flowgo?]

The purpose of the original Liverpool care pathway - so called because it was, literally, written down by a hospital-based team in Liverpool, England - was to help other hospital and general practice medical and nursing teams recognise when patients were going to die and give them a way to make the dying process as gentle and peaceful as possible. That was the idea. The complete pig's breakfast that was made of it by hospitals up and down the land caused a furore, to the extent that it came to represent in the minds of their families atrociously callous neglect of dying patients. On a personal note, both my cousin and a close friend sincerely believe that the LCP was responsible for their respective fathers dying painful and lingering deaths. In my uncle's case, I know that this is not true: his death was an ordeal because he continued, may God bless him, to fight it to the end. In my friend's case, I suspect it is true that the LCP guidelines were misapplied and that comfort measures that ought to have been taken were withheld.

But here is the real crux of the matter: look at that one number given in the article - only 19%, less than one fifth, of health service providers routinely train their medical staff in care of the dying. I don't know if that is also true in US, but I would expect it to be broadly parallel. I would like to know what the figures are for medical teams specialising in care of the elderly; because if training in end-of-life care is not undertaken by approaching 100% of them there is an obvious, yawning gap in their expertise.

To me, here is what we need to focus on. We are caring for people who, by virtue of being old, can be expected to approach death sooner or later. We all die. We know that one day we will have to deal with it. When that day comes, there are some parts of the process that we might expect to be able to control, such as where we would like the dying person to be and what medical interventions the person would want his or her staff to attempt. But there are untold numbers of factors that we can't predict or control, such as how fast the process will happen, what symptoms the dying person will experience or how distressing he or she will find them.

Another important point is that when we witness our loved one dying it is a uniquely horrible experience for us, the families; but it is routine to the health professionals. There they are, calmly injecting our mothers with anxiolytics, and to us it looks like they're wrapping her up and posting her off to the hereafter with not a care in the world. They're not. They're doing their job. Every day they take responsibility for minimising the suffering of dying patients. They care by making it as peaceful as they can.

But finding the fine dividing line between controlling a dying patient's symptoms and hastening death is not simple. It requires agile clinical decision-making every single time. Fail to control the symptoms adequately, and families will witness a horribly distressing death. Overcompensate, and families will fear that their loved ones were in fact killed by the treatment, and lose sight of the knowledge that the person was going to die even without it. These are the issues that medical teams need to understand. Unfortunately, too often, they get tired of explaining what they are doing to relatives and carers, or they lack the communication skills to do it well.

Caregivers and family members need, for their own peace of mind, to meet the health professionals halfway. To do that, they need to prepare themselves for the dying process so that they have informed expectations of what is likely to happen. I'm being wise after the event, here; it's more by luck than judgment that my mother's passing went as gently as it did. We had mucolytics, anxiolytics and injectable sedatives ready to hand but as it turned out she needed none of them. Lucky for me. I would have been extremely reluctant to permit their being given, and I would have had to trust her doctor and nurses. What questions would I be ruminating on now, I wonder?
(4)
Report

Haldol and ativan and any overdose can cause a person to get a stroke or heart attack, heart failure or just organ failure.
(0)
Report

For the people on here that lost their family members suspiciously, should report it to the coroner, the medical board, the nursing board if need be, the joint commissions, just make your complaint to as many places as possible. Get the word out by commenting blogging however you can so it will not be allowed to be shoved under the table anymore. We need to educate everyone to try and stop this from happening, There are lawyers who can also help and hopefully get these medical staff who cause so much pain to the family by killing loved ones put away behind bard.
(0)
Report

horselady21 You should report it to department of health, medical board, Joint commissions and a coroner.There are people on here that may be able to help you with a lawyer. This needs to be investigated. Each and everyone of these kind of deaths and/or euthanasia should be investigated. I just mentioned a few places that you can report this to there are more. Report it to everyone you can and write comments about it on all the blogs you can.The word needs to get out so we all can help prevent this from happening. Maybe laws can be passed. I know in England people complained there was something called liverpool pathway that people were calling death pathway. Enough people complained and I don't know if it has completely changed for the better but at least it was made aware of and people were educated by other people as to what was going on. The more people know the better it is for our society. No more shoving it under the table. This is the first step to always report this and do not let anyone push this under the table.Everyone should write to Jerry Brown an email stating what happened to your loved one and say that assisted euthanasia can lead to some deadly problems. It will make hospitals and nursing homes and hospices more dangerous in california. I have read about a woman who was denied her medicine to live and was given the only choice which was the cheapest choice her insurance would offer, assisted suicide. That will make things deadly for elders disabled and many others. I also read that if someone is suspected of euthanasia they will get away with it like what happens in Oregon.People do not have to use doctors to help kill them that is not what they are for. This is not suddenly a big problem cause I suspect people have always had this choice to take their life with pills.The pills that are given are not that much different from an overdose of haldol or adivan or morphine. This will only encourage more euthanasia in the medical field.
(0)
Report

This discussion has been closed for comment. Start a New Discussion.
Start a Discussion
Subscribe to
Our Newsletter