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I started this discussion last year. Really appreciate everyone's advice, but never really resolved it:


https://www.agingcare.com/questions/father-in-law-less-independent-181558.htm


Long story short, we've been suspicious there's been some underlying health issues with my ILs. FIL acts odd and needy when we visit. My MIL's parents are both still alive (96 and 99). They seem to be able to get around and even drive still, but my MIL is taking care of a bulk of their medical arrangements. I think the stress is wearing her down at the least...possibly killing her slowing. She used to call me up and sometimes cry about it, but she never talks about it fully to her own son (DH is an only). This year she has become very aloof and that is what worries us most. I think DH is scared. He oscillates between calling them every day to every other day to going a couple weeks without really talking. We were supposed to all visit in a couple weeks with DD (she is 7) and our dogs. MIL has told us they don't want dogs over. She mentioned she worries the cats will puke up their meds and the dogs will eat them, but I think it's truly FIL has become more and more fearful of the dogs hurting the cats—even though two of them have have visited before and are gentle with our cats (the third is big and we don't take him to their house). She's also said there are loads of appointments they are going to. I believe the last. I think they are very stressed and perhaps this is not a good time to visit with DD (as much as everyone wants to see one another). But maybe it'd be a good idea DH go up on his own? He could talk to MIL then (they've always had trouble finding time to talk when DD is there with us). I think his parents need to see him (and perhaps vice versa). Are there quick resources I can send him that can give openings into these discussions? Also, what kinds of things should he look for when he visits?

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What do DH and DD mean?
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Dear Husband and Dear Daughter.
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I would recommend just being himself and going for a visit. Make it as long as he can without wearing out his welcome. He'll notice things that are off. Are there bills out that haven't been paid. Are the conversations making sense? Is everything still logical? If there are irregularities he will notice them. If you've heard them on the phone, he'll probably notice them even more in person. I think it is a good idea that he go up alone. That will reduce the stress on them and there should be less showtiming.
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Thanks. to be honest, the only thing I can think of is STAY a WHILE, like a few days.

It is VERY, VERY COMMON for elders to mask their problems and deficiencies for a few hours. It is only when you are under the same roof a prolonged period that you can see what is really going on.

Go with him. You nee dot see this, too.
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You might want to look at leaving the dogs home from now on - I've noticed that when the kids bring the granddogs for family gatherings, it's a bit chaotic for our elderly parents. Plus adding movable tripping hazards. It may be more commotion than your inlaws can handle.
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Greta, I'm just trying to get a sense of the back story here. How old are your inlaws? You mention MILs parents are in their 90's so I am guessing they are in their 70's? And just how far apart are you, is this a once a year visit or is it doable more often?
This article may be helpful:
www.agingcare.com/articles/signs-your-parent-needs-help-143228.htm
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MIL is in her 60s, but she's been through a number of surgeries (hip and knee). She still limps, but takes care of most everything—including bringing food and water to FIL when he's in the basement on his computer (he used to take care of himself). FIL is in his late 70s. He's had 2 heart attacks and a back surgery, but he seems healthy/in decent shape (moves around okay). MIL does *a lot*. She waits on him, she cares for her parents, and medicates, feeds, and cleans up after their gazillion house cats. This is part of why I think there may be a senility issue going down.

It is a 5 hour drive. It is very hard for us to leave all the dogs home. We have 3 dogs. One does get left behind (or I stay with him while DH takes DD). Another is very geriatric and would not do well with a pet sitter (she has stress seizures if she doesn't come with us). She has been up to visit the ILs for 12 years and never caused any problem. The other one has terrible separation anxiety and he is tiny (10 pounds). All of them are very well behaved. The older and little dog have been visiting for years. DH's grandparents love seeing them and are sad if we don't bring them both.

But FIL has strangely become obsessed with dogs killing his cats. Our dogs live very peacefully with our cats (and have been with theirs), but FIL is convinced they will hurt his cats—even our little dog who is smaller than their cats. Once he randomly told me if he was ever walking his cat (he's never walked his cats) and someone's dog attacked the cat, he'd kill the dog.

Later, he yelled at our little dog, because he did a play stance (bowed on front legs) and wagged his tail at a cat who was bigger than him. This is not at all like FIL. When we had 2 other dogs (who passed away), he loved them as much as we did for 10-11 years. No one has tripped over the dogs.

I try very hard to schedule trips several times a year, but it's very hard. DH is the one to finalize things as my job is a lot more flexible than his. He perpetually puts off making time to see them unless I hassle him (which I *hate* doing and don't feel it's fair I have to do—but I still do out of guilt and feeling the ILs need us to visit—MIL seems lonesome and we need to talk). This makes it difficult for me to secure pet care (we have a couple cats—as well as the dog we leave home).

But—pets aside—this is a very small part of our concerns. Each time we go to visit FIL does weird things like he keeps repeating the same things....like this horrible story about a baby relative dying when he was a child. He's also said a few inappropriate things in front of DD. Most of the time she's been little enough it's gone over her head, but she's getting older now and we worry she is going to pick up on it. He's always had strong views, but he used to have a better filter around kids.
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Oh my, it sounds as though FIL does have dementia and poor MIL is run ragged trying to care for 3 people. I think it is definitely past time for a face to face, serious conversation about this. Is she in denial, is she aware but trying to sheild that knowledge from the family for some reason, or is she just so overwhelmed she can't begin to think straight? As much as you have the urge to ride in like white knights to solve her problems you are really powerless without her support.
I would make the trip with your husband, I think it will take both of you voicing your concerns to get through to her. The dogs and DD will be a distraction but better to take them all then not make the trip. It sounds as though it is way past time you had "the conversation" about their future needs and plans and getting all the legal documents in order. Don't push, she may react by throwing up emotional barrier, simply state the things you have seen and ask her what can be done to help. It may be helpful to go armed with some information on resources available in their area. Number one is to figure out a way she can get some respite.
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I agree with cwillie.

It is time.

What you are describing is very common: children have an inkling but are far away and visit only every few months.

Move. Act. Trust me on this.

Right now you are up in arms about dogs and cats. But as you say, there is more and it is already happening. Snap into action! Don't wait until they have done something irrevocable with money. Then you will truly be singing the blues. It can be ruinous.
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Leave the dogs at home. Your brief description indicates that they are high-maintenance. This is the wrong occasion for that level of distraction.

Things to check (and do not feel bad about snooping): Is the cleanliness of kitchen and bathroom below their usual standard? Does the house smell musty (or worse)? Check fridge for expired food. Do they rely excessively on processed food/take-out/microwave meals?

Are mail and papers in disarray? (Check mail for $ solicitations, religious or otherwise.) Are there pointless multiples of non-perishable food, OTC meds, first-aid supplies and household gadgets? Are store purchases (in bags) and gifts (in bags) stashed in odd places?

Look for excessive and/or unaddressed to-do lists. Look for notes to self and/or how-to write-ups -- such as "turn off stove" or written directions to operate the microwave, etc.

Take note of odd "hacks" such as taping a light switch up or down, piling a bunch of crap in front of a door "for security," etc. Do they insist that a phone, remote or small appliance is broken, when the truth is they can't figure out how to operate it?

Is car registration, inspection & insurance current? Check the car for scrapes and dents.

A biggie: Check dad's browser history. Most guys his age don't love technology all that much. There's a very good chance he's ordering weird crap online, screwing up their bills, engaging with scammers and such.
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Great list!
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Thank you, All, so very much! I think it is good my husband is going on his own this time around. I think in the future we will stay at a pet-friendly hotel when we visit as a family...but my husband needs to go down on his own a few times a year. That is really the best obsever if something is going on, because even if we didn't bring the dogs (which really isn't an option for us) bringing our daughter with each time is a big distraction.

An important thing to keep in mind about my FIL is he is an exception when it comes to technology. Unlike most people his age, he is actually *obsessed* with it. MIL is very careful about making sure financial matters are up to date. She was always mostly in charge of that. If she wasn't having to take on so much with her parents and their cats (they drive to the vets several times a week), I would completely have faith they are doing well enough to handle things on their own. My big concern is that a year ago, MIL was open with me about her parents and is now super quiet. For example both her parents have been in the hospital a couple times for very serious matters, and DH and I won't find about about this until a week later. One time, his grandmother called to apologize for sending a card late and mentioned after the fact she was in the hospital.

As someone who cares about her MIL, FIL and hubby's grandparents (they are my family to me), I'm very concerned for all of them. As someone who loves her husband, I am pissed. It is very unfair to him on so many levels that they keep him in the dark—especially as he's their only kid. I cannot imagine doing this to our daughter when she is an adult. I love that MIL opens up to me (perhaps she's expecting me to talk to her son), but he needs to hear some of this from them, and we really need them to open up about what going on. At the very least, it prepares us if someone's health (physical or mental) is on the decline. At the most, we can help them the best they need and want. I wish they'd understand that!
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Greta, you said that you would have faith in them doing ok on their own if she didn't have so much to do to help her parents. She may be in that frustrating position where her parents only want help from her, don't want to move from their home, want her help keeping their life as they always have had it. Every hospital stay points out to her their increasing needs and perhaps the riskiness of them living alone. Add to this her own husband's health issues, and she must feel like she's on a hamster wheel. Maybe she's being quiet about her parents because she's trying to sort thru a difficult situation where she only has partial control.
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You make an excellent point, Linda. This is why I'm actually concerned for her now more than ever. Last year she at least could talk/vent about it. These past few months she's been super quiet. That and the fact we don't hear about the grandparents having life-threatening issues until way after it has past is what is most concerning and very much not like her.

That said, she *does* actively keep her son in the dark. It's something she and my FIL have always done. I'm sure they think they are protecting us, but it makes things worse.
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Also, it's not just her parents, but their gazillion house cats. They have to drive these cats to their vets several times a week. And then their vets have given them several other cats in addition to the cats they own. One time the vets promised to cover a cat's medical bills, but the others they haven't (and one is a special needs senior). MIL does all the feeding, grooming, cleaning after and medicating of these cats. She seems very unhappy/stressed with it (though she cares for a couple of them). FIL has bragged he'll spend all their savings on vet bills.
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I would think that from what you describe you husband needs for you to see what he sees upon his arrival, so you can discuss it and intervene if necessary. Just because things happened a certain way with the dogs before, doesn't mean it will ever again, if the family member's conditions have declined. I wouldn't maintain plans of future visits with the dogs based on your description of their household. It sounds like things are ripe for a crisis, if not already there.
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Greta, setting all the pets aside, I don't know that one person can take care of two parents in their 90's and a spouse, without completely burning out. A poster on this forum, frequentflyer, comes to mind - she ran herself ragged doing for her parents so they could stay in their home. I think once your husband sees what his granddparents situation is and how they are dealing with it, he'll have a handle on whether his mom can transfer some of their care to others. It makes a difference whether it's their unwillingness to make changes, or her reluctance to not be doing it all herself (being a good daughter).
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"My parents are attending a decluttering seminar. I talked to them for over an hour. I think they are okay."
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Greta, are you quoting your husband? Are the cats part of the decluttering effort?

I agree with Linda. Someone in their 60s, caring for two elders in their 90s, a gazillion cats and a husband who frankly sounds a bit unhinged? It's a recipe for a stroke or heart attack. Who is going to have to step up to care for these folks if your MiL winds up in the hospital for several weeks, or worse?

Try to get your husband to see that by solving some of these problems now, he's acting out of self protection, as well as in his mom's interests,

Someone should contact the vet and stop the flow of cats...and money. Someone should get in touch with the Area Agency on Aging and see what services are available for his grandparents. Perhaps DH could accompany grands to their next dr appointment.

And someone needs to get MiL to her doctor for a checkup, and to see if these stressors have already done damage.
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Thank you, Babalou. Yes, I was quoting him.

We had a big talk tonight that almost ended in an argument. He tried to divert it again. Instead of pushing things I walked away, wrote a numbered list of the weird things that have happened this year, and handed it to him. He actually read it! Then he put it in his wallet. He said he's keeping it to say focused when he sees visits. I will ask him if he can come with to a doctor visit for the grands. He doesn't think the cat flow will continue. I disagree. MIL has loads of common sense, but it's been like she's worked overtime to do anything possible to keep her husband happy—even if it goes against her beliefs (another reason I think something odd is going down). It doesn't help the vets try to pressure them to adopt more cats sometimes.

Keeping my fingers crossed and hoping he can keep his rose-tinted glasses off when he visits.
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Oh Greta. Hubby is deep in wishful thinking. Board the dogs and go with him if you can. It can be so hard emotionally to see that your own parents really are declining. Print this all off and give it to him too, or get him to post on here himself! Talk to the vets yourself on her behalf, maybe...and it seems odd they are pushing extra cats on them, I'd rather suspect she's not able to say no or she indicates she wants them (?).
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Thank you, Vstefans. We can not board all of our dogs. One of them is 15, she has loads of disabilities and gets stress seizures if she is boarded. At this point, if we boarded her she will possibly die from the stress. The other dog has super separation anxiety disorder, and it would be cruel to board him. Best we have come up with is staying at a hotel if we all go together (and having the dogs stay there together when we visit)—which is really for the best. My IL's house is hot this time of year.

So, the dogs are not the issue anymore.

But our daughter is. She is very young to be staying on her own with someone else (though I have several wonderful friends available if an emergency arrises).

My FIL completely occupies my husband's time 70% of the time we are there. When he's not talking his ear off (and a lot of times when he does—though I try to keep her busy), my daughter clings to her daddy. I can only keep the kid busy for so long. Sheis a wonderful kid—very intelligent and sweet, but she's very young and high-energy. This leaves my husband very distracted (and tired). By the time we can talk with my MIL alone, the two of us are ready for bed.

This is why he is going without me this time. It's not ideal, but hopefully will give him a better clue into things and he can really see the situation with his own eyes without our little monkey daughter swinging off him. :)

Maybe he can get his folks to open up with him or at least start a dialog. Then we can come up later as a family and actually have a good talk together. It really benefits everyone, and we should have done it a good 5-10 years ago.

If something happens to his mom (and the way this is going it will), it will be very difficult for us to fulfill their needs/wishes if they don't even give us a voice as to what they want. Even if they *do*, it's not fair for us not to know until the emergency happens. FIL may or may not be able to live on his own, but it would be terrible to simply expect this and find out after-the-fact he can't. Hubby's uncle may be fine caring for the grands on his own, but that also is not fair to expect. There's also the issue with the cats. We had initially promised to take all of them (back when there were just a couple). Now that is not a realistic solution for anyone—including all the cats. It would be terrible to dump them in the shelter (and as much I'd be tempted to hoist them on the vets—it'd be so much better they go to good homes). So we need a plan.
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Health & cognitive issues notwithstanding, your FIL's generation is awash with grown-azz men who can't live on their own because they Have No Idea How To brew a pot of coffee, cook a meal, wash a dish, buy groceries, do laundry, change the sheets or make a doctor/dentist appointment. I suspect FIL falls into this camp. And his health setbacks and cognitive/neuro issues make it all the worse.

Investigate the cost and feasibility of every care option for the grandparents and MIL & FIL. For the couples as couples, and for the individuals. Even if it's the wrong time to discuss it with them (because they will freak out and resist), you & hubby need to know where to go, who to call and where to sign -- and how long the waiting list is -- when it flips to crisis-mode. And with this cast of characters, there will be more than one crisis.

Good luck to you. Research, research, research. The internet is your best friend. And tell that vet to take a flying leap. In person. He or she is terribly irresponsible.
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I am wondering what exactly you hope will happen with your inlaws? You are very concerned, yet you don't seem to have a concrete solution other than 'something has to change. At 66 I doubt that MIL is suffering from anything worse than mental anguish and burnout, FIL sounds deluded and demanding, but perhaps he has always been this way? I will repeat what I said earlier, MIL needs to acknowledge that she is stretched too thin and she needs to be willing to accept help. You can assist by investigating what options are available for homecare for her parents, you can express concern over FIL and encourage him to have a cognitive assessment, you can make a few phone calls to this vet about the cats (that whole situation sounds off to me). It would also be good to go armed with information she can read and consider about POAs, Wills and financial planning after retirement.

Is there perhaps another reason your MIL has stopped confiding in you? Has she found another confidant? Have you encouraged her to give up caring for her parents a little too often, or been less than supportive of her choices?

I understand you have made the decision about the problems with the dogs and your child. In the future she would probably love to stay with a friend for a holiday, didn't you say she is 9? Also unless FIL is violent or totally off his rocker there is nothing there that she can't be exposed to, it will teach her compassion.
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Our daughter is 5 (if I said 9 that's a typo). MIL has had multiple surgeries for orthopedic issues. FIL says he'll take over responsibilities. Within a day or less, she's doing all the feeding/medicating/cleaning after the cats. Hubby thinks it's a generation thing (his dad has always been a bit dependent), but I remember he used to heat up his own food for lunch and do a better job taking on part of the responsibilities. Seeing MIL limp horribly to fix him plates for lunch or take care of the cats really is painful to watch.

I do *not* ever tell her what to do. I can't even begin to grok what she's going through. It is never my place to judge or make decisions for her. When she's not overwhelmed, she has amazing common sense and I'm usually the one asking her for advice. I get the sense she is overwhelmed—or possibly—we are both too busy and cross like ships in the night. There is always the third possibility she comes here herself and has seen my first thread, but I don't get any sense/clues that is what is happening.

No, her mind isn't going at all, but I think she is depressed and burnt out. I worry for her physical health as well. If she wasn't already having some mobility pain issues it'd be a lot different, but I saw my own grandmother die from caretaking. It will kill me to watch it happen to another family member and just do nothing about it. :(

I'm hoping my husband starts to see things for what they are without distractions. I'm hoping he can get a conversation started with his parents—or at least his mom—about what *they* are planning to do (or want to do) if/when someone becomes incapacitated or worse. We will go from there. We want to be as supportive of them as we can, but realistically. For example? Their cats are willed to us, yet there is no way we can care for them all—even if we didn't have our own pets. If we can start a conversation—a real one—I think we can work things out. Maybe my MIL will look into getting help or reveal she's getting it. Would also like her to come clean about whatever is going on with FIL. If his mind is going or he has a serious/terminal condition, we really should know so we can help them (the way they want/need) and/or prepare ourselves.
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Well, I should have known it was too easy. My husband is making up excuses not to visit his parents. First he had a cold about a week and a half ago and claims he's only going to visit if he feels okay (and why do I have a feeling he'll not magically feel well enough). When I called him on that, he claimed he was going down two weeks later than planned to help his parents declutter.
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And when I tried to re-bring up what we discussed? It was like he magically forgot it all. WTF?!
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I don't want to hassel him about all this. I want to be supportive. But it is so d@mn hard when he does this. He doesn't seem to understand how it can hurt all of us and *why*.
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He's got his head in the sand. You have two possible routes - one is you go up there, and whether he goes or not is up to him, realizing that overstepping your bounds a little could be the lesser of two evils in this situation; two is you let him keep his head in the sand until something bad happens, and prepare to bite your tongue to hold back that "I told you so" when it does. I sense you identify with and feel sorry for MIL and wish fervently he would do something to get help for her, but it does not look like he is going to, because that would mean he has to face a difficult conversation and acknowledge that his dad is failing while risking his wrath. So, don't hassle him. Since he is not feeling well, you'll go and see what you can do until he is feeling better. And remember, you will see with clearer eyes; - it seems that he cannot face his own parents' decline, and at best that's never easy for anyone. Being "supportive" may mean understanding that, and not judging...but OTOH, it does not mean letting him walk off a cliff blindfolded either.
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I wonder if your husband needed the support from you to go with him. Since, you said that's not possible, he lost the courage. You said you could only go if it was an emergency. I would think it was an emergency. At any rate, there is likely to be a crisis if the situation continues, so I might figure out dog and child care arrangements now, because I would anticipate the need to get there in the not too distant future. Having to arrive, access the situation and then find resources on the heels of a crisis isn't fun. I'd do it sooner, if possible.
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