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Need: Okay. Did not know that.
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Margaret - yes there are boundaries I'm setting - OK not written down but he pretty much knows. Ignores it and keeps pushing.

My take on the crying wolf/illness thing is that ok if he thinks hes ill then he thinks hes ill. Yes I'm not a doctor. There have been literally 100s of times when hes NOT been ill. Of course, when he is genuine I probably dont believe him either.
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Llama - Oh MANY times hes said that. And "you're family will have to understand".

Hes done this many, many times. His attitude always seems to be, and hes said this, "Well, I'm old and need your help and that's the end of it" and then any obstacles like this are my problem to sort out. No thanks and no choice it seems!

He was in hospital xmas day one year. I said I'd be over lunchtime (its 30 miles away) - my son was 5 or 6 at the time. Nope he wanted me there at the hospital earlier. I said look let me open his xmas presents with him and I'll be there as soon as I can. He actually said "Put your foot down - tell you're wife and son you can't do xmas day with them because I'm in hospital. There'll be other xmases for that!". I turned up something like 1130am - rushed to get there. He refused to speak to me because I was "late". I walked out after 20 minutes and went home.

I've seen this illness "pattern" many times in the past. He gets a cold. Initially, the doc will give him antibiotics. It wont go as quickly as he likes. He'll call doc again. Eventually, they will tell him they can't help and to just rest. He wont like this and will somehow get himself into hospital. Expecting a phone call in a few days.
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NeedHelp - My Dad is the most stubborn, small-minded person I've ever met.
Once hes got an idea in his head he wont ever change.

There is no way in a million years he will EVER go into a home. Hes got this idea that families "put their relatives away to die in a home".

Yep. Wife is better out of it. I dont blame her. The way hes been with her she has no need to have a relationship with him at all. Of course, he thinks he done nothing wrong and it irritates him that she doesn't bother - constantly trying to drag her back in.
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Paul,

Like I said, your wife is smart. She is realistic and sensible. No need for her to open up a door to foolishness. She leads a busy life. She has her own needs to care about, children to care for and is married to you, not your father.

She’s a good mom too because she is teaching your children about self respect by her example.

I admire your wife. She has her priorities in order. She saw where it was futile to be involved with your dad and decided to step away. Good for her!

It is unfortunate that he can’t see that it would be to his advantage to live in a retirement community that would be of assistance to him.

You have tried to get him to live his life more independently but he seems to be happier to depend on you.

I am glad that you have learned to back off. Just because he hollers, “Jump!” doesn’t mean your response has to be, “How high?”

Hopefully, sooner or later he will figure this out and start to take more responsibility for his own life. He has very high expectations of you. Helping out is one thing, doing unnecessary things is a burden on people.
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Paul, thanks for the reply. I’d suggest that you do actually write out your boundaries and give them to him, for your own protection. I was also trying to think about how you could know if something serious does actually happen to Dad. Is there any way to check – a neighbour who could say if the milk bottles aren’t out (and old-fashioned one, probably not now)? A hospital admission where you could ring for information about whether it’s justified? Even SIL checking – perhaps you haven’t blocked her number? You have been pushed into a corner, but it would still be a misery all round if he spends days dying on the floor after a bad fall (and it actually happened to someone we knew).
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margaret - know what you mean. He does have a lifeline thing around his neck so hes ok there.

Brother and SIL are blocked. If I unblocked them and said emergencies only they would not respect that. Been there....
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NeedHelp - Yeh I can see what shes doing - good idea.

I've always said parents need to do what they can to help themselves. Its impossible to ask kids to do it. Unfortunately, Dad isnt, never has, and never will be interested in helping himself.

Hes done it all his life looking back now. If there was an "easy" way which meant someone else doing it, he'd go for it. After all, what man in perfect health living alone decides hes not going to use a washing machine because its "womans work"?

Totally agree. I would do anything Dad NEEDS. Trouble is its mostly WANTS. He wants me to let my kids down on a Saturday am because he WANTS me to drive 30 miles to walk down the betting shop for him. He WANTS me to do his grocery shopping because he can spend £20 instead of the £30 minimum for home delivery. See what I mean here?

Trouble is I don't think he'll ever change. He'll just get unhappier and unhappier that things aren't going how he sees them going.
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I agree Margaret.

I have been mulling over Paul's situation for a bit & having a good think.. Having had somewhat similar situation - the outcome is still a work in progress but mentally I have arrived at a whole new place... Floating along in peace 😊. Two years ago that was only a dream.

I can confirm turning the dream into a goal & getting there can be done ☺️🙏

I am working on getting that into type. I know our help online is limited & face to face councelling is sometimes the answer... but I will try. Be back later.
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Margaret,

I am sure that your heart is in the right place concerning Paul’s dad but there comes a point where letting go is the only answer. Paul can’t babysit his dad all his life. God knows, it nearly destroyed me caring for my mom as long as I did. It simply isn’t healthy to live our entire lives for our parents.

God forbid that something awful will happen but if it does it would not be Paul’s fault. He gave him fair warnings a million times. He has made suggestions and recommendations to him many times over. So there really isn’t any reason to feel guilty.

Of course, Paul would feel badly if something awful happened but sometimes it takes that for someone to make needed changes in their lives. Enabling doesn’t work.

My uncle lived to be 96. He had five children. Three of the children took turns caring for him. They all had jobs and families. It became too much and they asked him to go into a facility. He refused.

My uncle lived in the same big two story home that he raised his family in with my aunt. She died many years ago. He was all alone in that big house. He could no longer go up the stairs. He lived in the basement!

He lived in New Jersey and loved the ocean but couldn’t do anything like he used to. He had Parkinson’s disease like my mom. He was falling all of the time.

He couldn’t take care of himself any longer. Sad because he was a proud man, a man who was in WW11, Korea and Vietnam. He loved his church and volunteered until his late 80’s. He was very active in his life but at some point some people can no longer participate in their usual activities.

Well, my uncle got an UTI, became septic, almost died! His daughter said, “Dad, you need help.” He agreed that he needed help and said, “I need help 24/7. I will hire someone.” His daughter’s response was, “Dad, that’s a nursing home. You can’t afford to hire someone to help 24/7. I will find a nursing home for you.” She did!

Reluctantly, he went because he had no other choice. Had she babied him, he wouldn’t have gone.

Some people still won’t go after close calls and ER trips to the hospital and that is so very sad but it is never the children’s fault and as sad as it is they should not feel guilty or alter their lives any further. Paul has his own family to care for.
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Paul,

You are one hundred percent correct. There is a difference between needs and wants. I know that you aren’t heartless. You have proven that. His actions are selfish. Your family comes first. You deserve to be with your family. Your dad could do laundry and have food delivered. He chooses not to.

Do not unblock your phone either. You don’t need the stress. I get it. Like you continue to say, your dad won’t change his behavior. Neither will your brother or sister in law.

My husband does laundry. He cooks too! We share responsibilities in regards to our home. He was an involved father to my daughters when they were growing up like you are with your children. My girls are grown and out of the house now. Fathers should help in raising children.
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paul: You know what - dad has made himself this way. He didn't have to be so difficult, but he plies his trade well - but YOU are not going to JUMP every time he says that you have to.
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Paul - do you think you can set your dad straight on his misconception?

"...when he TELLS me "you've got to put me first...""
You: Dad, I do what I can for you, but my priority is my family. My wife and children, they come first.

"your family will have to understand"
You: Dad, I do what I can for you, but my priority is my family. My wife and children, they come first.

"Well, I'm old and need your help and that's the end of it"
You: Dad, I do what I can for you, but my priority is my family. My wife and children, they come first.

Rinse. Repeat.

Say that line as a fact. He will reject it, but it doesn't change the fact. You don't argue with him about a fact, you just state it and restate it.

How he handles that fact is his business. You stick to your fact.
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Paul, can I ask if any of the 'heart to heart' or down to earth chats with your Dad have ever changed his mind or his behaviour?

When you've pointed out you live xx KMs away, you work, your wife works, you have children to raise etc has he ever said anything like "I didn't realise it is hard for you too" or "I'm just not sure what else to do?"

Just wondering what insight he has?

My Sister really had no idea how hard it was doing all & sundry for her. When I started saying no she even said, well if YOU can't do it, I don't care but I just need someone to! What appeared as selfishness was actually 'lack of insight'. Due to cognitive impairment she had no idea of the problem, let alone the planning skills to find solutions.

Is this like this at all or not?
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People can be strange about how they feel a man or woman should behave. I loved working. My husband would have never asked me to quit my job.

Some people are old fashioned and don’t feel women should work at a paying job. I don’t care if a woman doesn’t work outside of the home but people should not care if women do work outside of the house, especially now in today’s world.

I had people, both men and women tell me in the past, “Why are you working? You’re married.” It shocked me to hear that. I find it strange. I can’t imagine telling someone that. I used to answer by saying that I want to work and life is expensive! I hated when I had to quit working to take care of my mom.

Paul’s dad is very out of touch about his wife working but as Paul says, his dad feels like a woman should not work outside of the home. Very old fashioned thinking.
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Need, Paul's Dad doesn't think women shouldn't work outside the home when he wants to see the district nurses or (probably) half of the GPs at his local surgery.

Paul's Dad talks for effect. It's just noise, it's not a real opinion.
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CM,

Excellent point! I agree. The story changes according to his needs. The irony is that Paul’s wife is a nurse. Interesting, huh?
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Like the bleating of sheep... Sometimes I tune out when people moan too much.. ;)
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Beatty,

That’s what is best. Tune them out. I become exasperated if I am speaking to an irrational person. Most times it isn’t even worth talking to them. They will not listen. They will purposely provoke. They usually don’t have all the facts. They frequently make up stories. They usually don’t admit if they are wrong. They accuse others constantly. So as I said, why bother? I don’t need their approval. I know who I am and not interested in proving myself to anyone who is behaving foolishly.

My husband’s grandmother was like that. She drove everyone in the family crazy. Before too long we all ignored her foolishness.

One time she told me that her ‘hair’ hurt. So, I said, “Your hair can’t hurt.” Do you mean your scalp?” She insisted it was her hair! I excused myself and walked away.

Another time we played a joke on her. We each took turns telling her that the house was on fire. We said it louder and with more emotion each time. Do you know what she said to each of us? “That’s nice.” Then she proceeded with her ridiculous complaints about this or that. That was proof that she didn’t listen to anyone!

Another time she lied to people and told them that her daughter did not have cancer, that she was pretending she had cancer to get attention. How can someone pretend to go bald? My mother in law lost all of her hair with chemo treatments for non Hodgkin’s lymphoma. That made me angry that she did that to her daughter while going through cancer treatment.

Some people are just plain crazy and hateful. Yes, best to tune them out for our own sanity, right? Plus they don’t deserve any credence for their actions. Everyone learned sooner or later that she was off balance.
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NeedHelp - Oh he'll NEVER agree to go into a home EVER! I hear the words "I'll manage" a million times. In other words, "you can do it, cant you?"

Also, he'll never go into a home because you've got to pay. And he has no idea of costs and refuses to spend any money.

Of course, yes I cook, do the laundry, childcare etc. Like most men. I remember the one time we did agree to do Dads laundry - I did it and told him. He looked at me as if I was crazy!

Oh all the District Nurses who come to see him are "girls". In other words, menial workers there to serve his needs. Really. To him only "girls" could be nurses because its a womans job. Its not a proper job that a man would do. I hope one day he gets a man!

And don't me started on his views of the roles in a marriage. Its a bit scary. Hes said a few times I need to "sort my wife out and make sure she knows whos boss". Just wow.
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Polar- Many times I've told him I've got lots of people who rely on me so he needs to understand this. In one ear and out the other...
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Paul,

It’s weird. The head nurse at the nursing home where my mom did rehab was a man. She always called him “the doctor.” I had to correct her. If a female doctor went to see her she assumed it was “a nurse.”

Her regular doctor was female because the male doctor she had retired.

I know some men that refuse to see female doctors. Just crazy thinking.
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Beatty - I've given up. I've tried it all. I've tried to be nice and explain to him that I'll help where I can but I've got other responsibilities. I've tried to explain he needs to be a little more flexible with things.

No interest at all.

Only time he ever takes notice is when he pushes it too far and I explode. He backs off very quickly then. BUT, I've worked out its only because he knows he might lose his "resource". A week later hes back to doing exactly the same.

He knows what I've got on. I've tried to explain to him about my teenager with Aspergers and how he needs us to spend time with him. He does not care. Hes said before "Didn't have that in my day - just give him a slap across the head to behave himself"

Bottom line with Dad is "I'm old, need some help, so you and you're brother have to help me. Anything else you need to make arrangements and you're families need to understand".
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NeedHelp - yep Dads the same. Can't understand how its even possible for a man to be a nurse.

Also, he'd never see a woman doctor either. He thinks women are disorganised, and "never get things right".
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The only time I've been called girl recently came from a young District Nurse. We were with a client, a senior colleague and I, and this apparently school-age nurse had come to see to the client's skin breakdown. She handed over some Cavilon and said "so if you girls could apply this for him, morning and night time calls..."

All three of us - client included, bless him - gave her the fish-eye.

Carer, love, nurse, girl, lady, home-help, oi you, or, in one case, doctor (?!?): I don't mind what the clients call me, within reason. But I do expect professionals at least to try to use the right job title. Or even just ANY job title would be better than that. For a start, at least five of my peers are men.
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NeedHelp - Reminds me of a time where Dad had this thing where he couldnt chew. Can't remember the name but its a real thing - stress related. Not that Dad would ever admit to having anything stress related.

Anyway, he couldnt basically chew meat. Not the end of the world of course. He swore blind he could feel himself getting weaker because he "wasnt get the vitamins and goodness he needed from meat".

I pointed out that generally millions of vegetarians all over the world didnt keel over in the street!
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Paul and CM,

Sometimes they even insult further by saying, “little girl.” Okay, I admit I am small. I have been all my life so I get called ‘little girl.’

I have silver hair and in my 60’s and I am called that by some older people! Hahaha
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Paul,

Yes, they can embellish a story to no end! I guess he could never become a vegetarian or even stricter a vegan.
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CM - I think with Dad he treats them as female servants. He doesn't appreciate that they are professional healthcare workers at all.

Don't get me started on how he asks them to come at 9am. Then gives them a telling off when they don't arrive until 11am. All because he "wants to go out to play bowls".

As you know, my wife is DN. I know how busy she is - its impossible to agree to times like this. I've also told him many times that, the DN service is for housebound patients only and berating the nurse because you want to go out is not really on. Doesn't care.

Hes lucky he doesn't live in the area my wife works. She very often discharges patients back to the surgery for things like this. After all, they've not got enough resources to deal with genuine patients let alone patients like my Dad for whom its a convenience.

Last week, she watched as her patient drove up in the car as she waited outside, carried 6 bags of shopping up stairs to her 2nd floor flat. Then was upset because shes now got to drive 1/2 a mile to the GP surgery instead.
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Paul,

My husband’s grandma was very cheap with her money. Other people could spend money on her but she never wanted to spend money. Her husband, may he Rest In Peace was an angel. He was so good to her and believe me she didn’t deserve his kindness.

She treated everyone horribly. One time she told her housekeeper that she would give her a dollar raise. Well, the housekeeper thought she meant a dollar an hour more in pay. She gave the woman one single dollar just for that week! This woman worked for her three times a week from early morning to late afternoon! She had to polish the silver and wash the crystal every week. She was not nice to her at all. She stood over her told her how to do her job. She was awful.

Well when she died I was asked if I wanted one of her many fur coats. They were in fashion then. I hate furs. So I asked her maid if she wanted a fur coat. She did. She had always admired the furs. Every year my husband’s grandparents went on a shopping trip to New York to buy special things.

My husband’s grandmother would have never wanted her housekeeper to be walking around in one of her fur coats! That made it extra special to me to give it to her.

She would pick out a $10,000 watch for her husband to buy for her but would ask for a senior citizen discount to buy a hamburger! Made no sense!
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