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*rigidly organized personalities*

Cutlery sorted by pattern. DVDs alphabetical. Spreadsheeted Xmas gifts.
Only wearing one colour.

These are the people in my family I consider normal range... Hahaha
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Staff - Get it every year. We go to Florida on holiday every year (im in the uk). Every year he tried to talk me out of it "its dangerous in the us", "why not save you're money" etc etc. Then I get "what am I going to do when you're away".
Bear in mind, he looks after himself fine, no needs at all apart from someone to get his groceries. (brother lives a mile away).

Last year he really annoyed me. Got there, phoned him next morning "Not I don't want you to worry, but I've been really ill, I've had to get the doctor out". I could have guessed this would happen. What did he expect me to do from the other side of the Atlantic? Get next flight home because he had a cold....
Didn't work I "worried" for less than a second.

My wife and I have talked about it because IT WILL happen one year. He'll pull serious makeupitis the day before we fly or something to try and get me not to go. Hes good at getting hospital admissions too - done 3/4 fake ones in the past.
We've decided unless I can get independent medical details from someone we will go as planned anyway. Even if there is some modicum of truth in his illness, my family will go and I'll follow on a few days later.

I hope he never does this. To be honest, if he deliberately sabotages my family holiday like this, then that will be the end of our relationship.
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Barb - thanks I'll take a look...
Beatty - Oh Dad keeps every letter he ever gets and files them. Even the "changes to terms and conditions one".
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Paul: My brother's and I had a firm policy when it came to vacations--no one was EVER expected to rush back due to mom being ill or even dying. There isn't very much that one's physical presence adds; you can talk to doctors on the phone from anywhere nowadays.

Say every goodbye to your dad as though it might be the last one; shifting my mindset about that made a huge difference for me.

You would be reinforcing his bad behavior if you show up every time he claims he's ill. Your response might better be "so, what did the doctor say you should do?".
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"Then I get "what am I going to do when you're away"."

Response: The same thing you do when I am not away. (no more, no less, just that.)

"He'll pull serious makeupitis the day before we fly or something to try and get me not to go."

Then he is NOT privvy to plans until you are on the plane, or later.

IF you feel the need to respond (BUT, it's best to just mmmmHmmmm to these):

"its dangerous in the us" - State how many times you have been there, nothing happened. (gee, I've lived here all my life, probably many more years than you have traveled here... haven't encountered anything "dangerous" yet...)

"why not save you're money"
I am saving my money, but WE are entitled to enjoy some of it, otherwise what is the point to earning any?

Secondary response to that last one, if you feel the need:
I don't want to end up like you.... ;-P
Or even better, save that line for my brother dad... HE doesn't save anything, just drinks it all away, and look where that's gotten him.... sputter, sputter..
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Paul,

I am so glad that you realize it isn’t necessary to return home from a vacation to be with your dad. Your brother is there if it is a true emergency.

Vacations require planning ahead. It isn’t something that is easily rescheduled. So, enjoy your getaway when you are spending well deserved time away with your family.

I was at the opposite end. I did things wrong. I was the one who didn’t go on a vacation because of being a primary caregiver to a parent and I suffered from not getting a mental or physical break from it all.

So, good for you for not making the foolish mistakes that I did. I would have had to pay a full time caregiver for mom for us to get away. That on top of paying for a trip would have been a lot of money.

My mom would not have wanted to pay for the caregiver so I did without vacations. I missed them. I needed a break. I paid for it by burning out.

My husband went on business trips. My daughters went away for short weekends with friends. They grew up and moved out of the house. I was stuck alone with mom. It was exhausting.

We need to recharge. It is not a luxury. It’s important to schedule breaks periodically.
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My family 'rule' is you don't disturb someone's holdiay with bad news. (Unless they have actually specified to do so). Maybe as holidays were so rare, well planned in advance & hard to save up for in the old days. These days it is easier (well pre Covid days..) to get away but the mindset still continues. It shows thoughtfulness to avoid adding a burden onto people who are far away, causing either long distance worry or excess cost to return. No. The people nearby handle it.

Once again, I believe showing so little empathy for others is either selfish or due to cognitive deficits with reasoning.

Paul's Dad keeps trying to control his world to keep his own worry down. But his thinking is flawed believing Paul's life is within his control too.

I become a vague PITA when this level of controlling is cast over me: what time do you finish work? When I finish. What are you doing Saturday? Lots of things on, not confirmed yet.

Sometimes people are just making innocent chat... what are you up do? But then there's the... oh you're not busy Xday so you can do X for me... setting their little controlling & manipulating traps.

Makes you wish you were a dog & issue a growl at them & a loud 'back-off' bark.
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paul: That was to say "okay." I'd abbreviated it and you may not have picked up on it. Sorry.
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My parents hadn't been on a real vacation in many years. Finally planned a trip to AZ to see my dad's brother and my mom's sister. My grandmother was not happy about this...if she wasn't included it shouldn't happen. She was in a nursing home by this time. She pulled out all the stops on this one...she died the day before they were to leave. My parents went anyway. My uncle flew in to deal with it and my parents had a lovely vacation with uncle's wife (also a long suffering daughter in law). At this point my parents were so fed up with dealing with her and her never ending needs and lack of appreciation.
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We booked a holiday. Was mentioned in passing to relative. What? But I'm going away then too! I need you to mind my pets - can you change your dates?

No, it's been booked for ages.

But I need my pets looked after!!!!! And I've already booked & I've got no-one else etc.

I'm sure you'll figure it out. And so she did. Called around to get backups.

Next caller... I've been asked to mind pets but it's a long drive for me & I though you could do it as you are closer?

We will be away.

Can you change the dates as that really doesn't work for me.

So say no.

But that means X will have to do it. You don't want X to have to... you really should help out here & do it to so X doesn't have to.

X could say no.

Seriously. I am so lucky my DH & I agreed & he is not affected by F.O.G. He sees clearly: our family booked a holiday at the time that suited our family. If we were asked in advance to mind pets/housesit whatever & agreed, then sure. But our time is not to be arranged around someone else's plans (or lack of). Sort out your own pets. End of.

Sorry, rant over. Talk of holdiays & controlling people bring that to the surface every time!
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Beatty - funny reading your vaca plans and people then asking (demanding) you change your plans to meet theirs reminded me...

My YB is 10 years younger. So, when he was around 10yo, my mother would expect me to babysit if they made plans to do something. I had no problem with that (unpaid but whatever), but the time came when I had made plans to do something and last minute she says they are going out, I need to babysit. I said NO, I have plans. In retrospect I am surprised the parents didn't one-up me and tell me I could not go, that I must stay and babysit. I was not one to stand up to them, but this really irked me. Plan ahead and let me know - I have a "life" too! What actually happened is they left him alone (it was only a few hours, visiting someone or other) and from then on I was not asked to babysit!

IF something is very important and there are no alternatives, I will try my best to accomodate, but if it isn't possible, the other person has no business demanding you change your plans. I have a friend here in town who doesn't drive. She was upset that her kitty seemed off, and had recently lost his sister. She scheduled a vet appt, but her BF was working, so she asked me. I did have a dentist appt myself (not even close in proximity, timing was bad), so I requested a cancel/reschedule and took her to the vet. If there was no way to change my appt or I would get charged, I might have reconsidered, but I worried about her and her kitty! The dentist office was nice about it.

For the most part, I normally wouldn't do that. The only cancellations I've done previously were because the semi-feral kitty sensed something was up and you only get ONE chance to nab him! I have had to reschedule those, but they have been understanding. It's only been 1-2 times.

For these people who can't think, as the old saying goes, "Lack of planning on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part." Period.
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Oh hes pulled some stunts with holidays.....

The one year we went to Spain for 5 days (wifes brothers got a place there) and then we had Florida too. I think Dad thought "great hes only going for 5 days this year" then was REALLY upset when I told him about Florida.

He actually said "BUT BUT, you've had a holiday this year! Why are you going again?". I just sort "eh? why does it matter to you?". Then he got nasty and accused me of being selfish and greedy having TWO holidays. Crazy eh?

Like I said, every year, a few days before hes "ill". That time when he thought he'd tell me "I've had the doctor so don't worry". I mean - if its was me even if it was something serious I'd be loathe to tell a family member who was supposed to be on holiday anyway because I wouldn't want them to worry. Not Dad - he WANTS people to worry about him.

Not happening - obviously even if it was serious, I'm thousands of miles away. Sadly, having experience of this before (Wifes dad passed away suddenly years ago when we were in florida - awful time that was), I know insurance companies won't play ball unless they get proof. So I couldn't get free flight home anyway based on a case of madeupitis. (I remember the last time - wanted name of hospital etc so they could phone to check I wasn't making it up - nuts).

He always tries the "but you don't get paid holidays!" (I dont but its sorta factored in). Bet you can guess how many holidays I'd have had a kids if it;d been the same for him? Yep ZERO EVER.
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Todays call - "so you haven't had much time to phone me much then". "Must be really busy with all this lockdown then".

Next call is 3 days, 4 days, going up with every sarcastic, unpleasant comment!
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Does he realize that you're still working even though you are at home?
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He doesn't think about Paul working or not... that would fall into 'not me or my life' category where his brain probably can't/won't go. Staying in 'me & my life' is default.
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Two holidays in one year! That's having to adjust & accept that Paul is away TWICE. Just too much out of the usual routine to handle.

Does the dinner go on at 5pm sharp every night...
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He doesn't even take into consideration that Paul's working still. Not on his mindset.
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Work. yeh I think I mentioned. He kept on "Oh I bet you're jobs not safe working in an office and all". "You're brother is OK, they always need steel" (he worked in a steelworks). "No Dad its all good, Im working from home".

Bear in mind he think people who work in offices are pencil pushers anyway. This to him was another level. "No you can't work from home". "How do u do the work?" I've given up explaining remote access etc.....

So brother got made redundant. I thought it was funny. Suddenly, the IMPORTANT sibling has no work and the one with the not-even-a-proper job did.

Hes still at it though. "Can't believe they're still paying you for being at home". Thanks for validating my career choice. He has no idea....

I think hes hoping I'm out of work to be honest. So I can run around for him. He mentions something now and I say, brothers got plenty of time....
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Paul, your dad is a small- and closed-minded person, isn't he?

He knows one way of looking at things and changing that viewpoint is never going to happen. Because any shift in his world view would cause EVERYTHING to crumble. Nothing would be predictable. He'd have to think about and react to every experience, rather than having a ready response to it.

It must be an exhausting way to live. So much energy goes into keeping everything in its proper place...women, children, food acquisition....

Can you see why he expands so much energy into getting you back into the niche that you're supposed to inhabit? You threaten the whole structure by not behaving as expected!
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expends, not expands. Spellcheck strikes again....
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Barb - OH YES. Thing is he pretty much thinks hes the most flexible, open-minded person in the world. Complete opposite.

Hes got his views about gender roles, race, same sex relationships, work etc. and how it all fits into his world. This is is HOW IT WORKS and he is right.

In reality, he lives in the same small town that he was born in and is COMPLETELY CLUELESS about the modern world.

Some of his views are bizarre indeed..... I remember him mentioning same sex relationships a while ago. Crazy. I have a friend whos gay. My attitude (and most peoples) is SO??? Not Dad. He actually said - "so how are you still friends with X then if hes living with a fella?"

Eh? Its not catching or anything Dad. Also, what he does in his personal life is his business and no-one elses. Alas, its akin to selling you're soul to the devil in Dads eyes (I'm not religious but I hate it so much when he says - its in the bible).

I guess you all understand why Dad is not safe to let loose in public lol. When he used to come to our house for xmas day, he literally used to last 5 minutes before he made an inappropriate comment or opinon and I could see my wifes face...
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Hi! What did Dad think of Canada? When he was there, and now? It might at least be something to talk about.
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Ha ha margaret you remember....

How on earth Dad ever agreed to move to Canada I'll never understand. I can only think my mother talked him into it. I guess this is one reason why they ended up getting divorced.

He HATED the place. Too cold (this was Edmonton), the people hated him, they all thought he was English etc. Lasted 18 months and wanted to come home.

Of course, my mother never came back. I guess shes been there almost 50 years now - Canadian citizen now.

My gran (mothers mum) actually moved to Canada years ago. I assume shes not lying but she used to say she was friendly with Wayne Gretzskys gran. I dunno if thats true!

Even in the UK where theres no much ice hockey (there is a UK league I know because the the one team plays at the rink my daughter goes to), I know who Wayne Gretzsky is .
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BarbBrooklyn - I think in this case BOTH words can be applied! He expends energy, but he also expands it! ;-)
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I have a similar situation with a live-in parent.
I've been pondering this article for several days. Maybe it will help you too.
https://urbanbalance.com/3-steps-to-setting-boundaries-in-your-relationships/

Oh, how some parents do love to make 'duty' into a life-sentence...

As the article says -- boundaries serve both you and him. They keep both safe, even if one person on one side of the relationship doesn't acknowledge their necessity. You have the right to be safe and consistent. You have the right to be responsible for your own 'oxygen mask' and that of your children (assuming you have them) and your spouse. Demarcate the boundaries of your true capacity and willingness to serve your dad, and stick to that.

Learned helplessness is real. So is manipulativeness. I live with it every day. It is rooted in childhood trauma and mental illness. That doesn't make it OK. Compassion can include saying 'no' to unhealthy demands.

I wish you growing peace and health.
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MB - Live in parent? I feel for you....

V good article....
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Half your luck, I’ve never heard of Wayne Gretzcy. No ice hockey here, and it sounds like a good way to get injured anyway. I know I’ve said this before and you’ve said it’s irrelevant, but I still think you should contact your mother before it’s too late. Or your gran? Part of your problem has always been that Dad is the only one, and Dad’s view of himself has gone unchallenged for decades. I reckon that your mother probably had a rough time, and you have nothing to lose in finding out a bit more. A few of your comments suggest that she did try contact and got firmly pissed off in case she challenged his gospel. Even your determined distancing from her is a symptom of what dear Daddy has done to you. The answer to 'why bother' is the last thousand posts. Think about it again.
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Cheers margaret - yeh I think its something that I need to do....
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Another 3 weeks lockdown in wales. 40 miles away in England things are changing.....

Really stupid idea to do things differently......

So anyone know when the US is going to let us europeans back into USA?
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Does that mean you could travel to the border but only wave to him from there?

3 weeks more 'peace'.
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