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You need to compare apples to apples, if you put Sweden against the other Nordic countries they have not done nearly as well. And while Sweden may not have mandated lock downs it isn't quite as black or white as that, they did make suggestions about limiting the size and frequency of social gatherings which most of the population have followed voluntarily.
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The only way to beat this virus is herd immunity. People who contracted the virus are now immune.

We can lock down and hide, then come out, then lock down and hide. All it does is prolong the pandemic and keep us from reaching herd immunity. People die every day from everything. It seems like the only deaths that matter now are COVID deaths.

Lockdown has NOT helped the death toll as we have already seen over the last 8 months. If lockdown worked, we wouldn't be having 1000 deaths a day, a statistic someone quoted a few days ago.
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Barb,

I feel exactly the same way. Yes, we are being extra cautious due to my husband’s cancer but even if he didn’t have cancer we would still be very hesitant to be in a group without social distancing. Being outdoors and taking precautions is better than being indoors.

I think about our Mardi Gras parades. Many were infected during our carnival season. People are standing very close to each other at parades. People share food. They are drinking. They are catching throws from the floats. People literally dance in the streets, it’s a huge party going on! Hugging and kissing! Ect, etc, etc.

We love our parades. I adore the St. Patty Day parades but I am glad they were canceled. We have parades to celebrate everything in our city. We had enough infections from Mardi Gras but no one knew about how serious Covid was then. As soon as the mayor knew she pretty much shut the city down and followed the governor’s restrictions which I am sure saved lives.

The mayor made the right call to cancel all of our music festivals in the city. I agree with our governor’s restrictions for the state of Louisiana.

As sad as it was not to see my daughter walk across a stage to receive her diploma this year, her university did the right thing to mail out the graduate’s diplomas.

It breaks my heart to see businesses closed forever due to Covid. No doubt the economy is hurting. New Orleans depends on it’s tourists to boost revenues. Travel is down. I wonder how the airline industry will fare in the long run.

We could surely go on and on about many things. No telling when a vaccine will be available.

I am glad we had the option to vote early by mail! That helped many people. We mailed our ballots off weeks ago.

Everyone will be so relieved when Covid is no longer hanging over our heads.

I have always been a thorough hand washer. I wonder what changes will stick around due to this pandemic. It’s interesting to think about.

For instance, what about simple hand shaking? Will the practice of shaking hands during sharing the ‘sign of peace’ during Mass be discontinued? We have stopped handshaking even during a very high flu season. I am not anti social but personally I feel that we can do without it. That practice was introduced when I was a kid. It isn’t an age old part of our liturgy.

I always remember my mother in law saying, “People will shake our hand in church, then run us down in the parking lot!” LOL Loved her wicked sense of humor!

We have been watching Mass on television or online since Covid hit our city.

Archbishop Aymond has announced that no one is required to attend Mass since the pandemic. He encourages watching the Mass on television or to stream it online.
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Polar Bear, how many Americans will you sacrifice to have herd immunity? I believe you should read Dr. Anthony Fauci on the subject, or honestly any others. Herd immunity means wholesale death of the vulnerable. It hasn't worked for Sweden, who thought to try this, small country they are with the best chance at it. But no, hasn't worked. The fact is that immunity from this virus they now think may last as little as 6 months after infection. That isn't very good. It can be hoped that it will weaken over time as more and more have more and more antibodies, but that is a tinkers chance.
You are correct that we cannot remain locked down forever. We will have to learn to lived with it. That means CAREFUL handwashing, avoiding crowds and groups, protecting the vulnerable, careful masking and handwashing. That alone would have saved 100s of deaths in the United States, but we did not do it.
My daughter's friend thought it safe to go to a SEattle Sea Hawks celebration party, 17 people being relatively careful. 7 got it in the week, now 10, one dead. The virus is on the rise. Take good care of yourself. It will be with us as the flu was with us in 1918, perhaps not that bad, but is closing in on the number of men we lost in the second world war. There will be more.
I sometimes like to think where we would be without our wars and our viruses. We have no natural enemies. Save this.
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We have a news item today quoting the Chief Epidemiologist in Sweden saying "Striving for herd immunity is neither ethical nor otherwise justifiable”. Sweden has just hit its highest daily new case tally.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-10-30/sweden-hits-highest-daily-coronavirus-case-number/12829990
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A lot of different opinions on here about Covid I see ;-)
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Paul, I think you will find that we all on Forum differ widely in our opinions and thoughts. So no one can come on Forum and find unity. Today is election day. And we all will vote and make the best decision we are able with what we know for the future of the country we love. I for one will be glad to abide with the decision of the American People. But yeah, we sure do differ. And Covid somehow tripped into politics (I can't figure how). So it complicates it further. I was laying in bed early listening to the numbers, MILLIONS in the individual states. It made the number 231,000 dead seem so SMALL. Not even a million yet. I don't know anyone personally who has died yet. It is no small number however if it is your wife (as in Joel's case-a frequent poster). Last year the only friend I had who had a hubby on vent, almost lost him--he was ill of H1N1. So go figure. I am a nurse, so I respect and FEAR this virus quite a lot. But you betcha......lots of differing opinions. All I can say is voice your opinion loud and clear, and please protect yourself and one another with a good mask, handwashing, social distancing. Nothing to lose with that.
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polarbear said:

"Barb, the point is that Sweden's numbers are no worse than the rest of the world, yet they are not locking down and putting themselves in isolation."

No worse? As cwillie says, you have to compare apples to apples. Compare for real:

Country Swe Nor Fin Den
Pop 10.1M 5.4M 5.5M 5.8M
Cases 134.5K 21.6K 16.6K 49.5K
Deaths 5969 282 359 728
Death/M 590 52 65 126
(hopefully when I post this, the formatting won't be lost! Nope - any extra "white space" is deleted. Tried adding spaces just now and even those were deleted.)

While Sweden's population is about twice the other 3, their deaths and death rate/million are much higher than twice as much. Also, part of their goal was to avoid economic impact, but because of globalization, they've been hit hard too. Maybe not as bad economically, but still not good. Was it worth the little economic savings to have 4X or more deaths (up to 10X) than similar countries? Denmark is likely higher than the other two as it is part of the European continent, so you'd get some drift. Even if you cut Sweden's numbers in half, to closer match the total population, their numbers are still WAY higher than the others.

Sorting by death/million population has some issues (Andorra and San Marino are VERY high, but very small populations, so it isn't really a good comparison for ALL countries. Just bear that in mind.) The US has most cases (4% of world pop, but about 20% of deaths!) Given similar countries/areas, like Scandanavia, and populations, it is pretty clear that Sweden's plan isn't all that great. In the World ranking:

#17 - Sweden
#76 - Denmark
#99 - Finland
#107 - Norway
(FYI USA is #10)

Also:
"Social isolation is as bad as being in jail for those who live alone."

Not sure I would agree with this. I live alone, have for many years. My "lock down" has been pretty similar for about 2+ years, due to financial issues. Basically no worse than having gov't say stay home except for necessities. I don't feel like I'm in jail.

And these:

"The only way to beat this virus is herd immunity. People who contracted the virus are now immune."
There's no proof yet that anyone is "immune", whether they have had it or if we get a vaccine. Also, projections are deaths resulting would be MUCH higher if we try it that way. No way to know unless it's implemented, but meanwhile hospitals will be overrun in the areas where it is hitting worst. They're already seeing this occurring. Too many decided "We're not NYC, this won't happen to us!"

"Lockdown has NOT helped the death toll as we have already seen over the last 8 months. If lockdown worked, we wouldn't be having 1000 deaths a day, a statistic someone quoted a few days ago."

Part of the problem is that not everyone required a lockdown and many refused to comply. Even wearing masks has been iffy. Some states/local gov't require it, but there are plenty who dismiss it and refuse to comply. Other states haven't implemented it or the courts overrode the mandates. Limited contact tracing. Limited compliance. Too many who think all of this is infringement on their "rights". Wearing a mask is not much worse than being required to wear shirts and shoes in a store or a seatbelt when driving. If it can save some lives, great. I for one would like to remain safe. I wouldn't trust either of my brothers to be able to manage mom's finances and care!!! I'd like her to be safe as well.
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AlvaDeer says:

"Paul, I think you will find that we all on Forum differ widely in our opinions and thoughts."

If you get two people together you'll encounter differences of opinions!! We might agree on a number of issues, but that onnnne little thing we don't agree on, ooooeeeee!

(anyone remember Emo Phillips? https://www.reddit.com/r/Christianity/comments/42rr43/the_best_religious_joke_of_all_time_emo_philips/)
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Follow up on herd:

US pop ~331,663,944
Total cases to date ~9,635,881

That only leaves about 332 MILLION more people to potentially infect (potentially, because there may be many who have been exposed, but never got sick and were never tested - despite that caveat, that's still a LOT of people to potentially give an illness to. Also, some people have lingering effects after "recovery" - I don't want to be one of those either!)

South Korea managed their cases.
New Zealand managed their cases.
Even China has managed, for now.

Granted, SK and NZ are smaller countries and easier to contain as they are islands, but our biggest problems here are selfishness and politicizing... The ME ME ME ME ME people.
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Not everyone has been tested for antibody, but as currently, it is estimated that a high percentage of people have already been exposed and developed antibodies to the virus. I can see that my position is not a popular one in this particular thread, but popularity in opinions and feelings does not equal correctness or truth or logic.

Disgusted - name calling is stupid. My unemployed aunt and sick uncle receive $112/ week in unemployment. You dare call them selfish for wanting to go to work and earn a living? Shut down until they become homeless?

That will be all I will say about this polarizing topic.
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Polarbear, I’m genuinely interested to know more about the estimate that “a high percentage of people have already been exposed and developed antibodies to the virus”. There are many people who are not symptomatic, and of course they could infect other people who are also non-symptomatic, and those people could then develop antibodies. Clearly it is quite possible that this is right, and it would be very good to know. Please could you give more details about the estimate and where it came from? I haven’t heard it before.
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Margaret - I've said all I want to say about this topic. Sorry.
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Paul,

Yes, differences of opinion perhaps but I think we all want the same outcome. Everyone wants Covid to be over!

This is stressful for everyone no matter how they feel about the situation and how it should be handled.
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ANYWAY - Im confused so whos won the US election?
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Paul,

We don’t know yet.
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"Im confused so whos won the US election?"

That makes many millions of us, still waiting for the counts to finish! Voting ends on 11/3, but counting continues until all valid votes (either already received, done in person, or postmarked on time by state laws) have been counted. Some places don't allow counting or even opening the ballots mailed until election day, even if they've been sitting there for weeks. Also, so many opted for mail in this time, it will take longer to verify them and count them... fingers crossed!!!
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Join the crowd, Paul.
We are all feeling a bit confused. We may know about final counts in Michigan and Wisconsin in the evening today, but PA may not have full count in for days. Whatever the outcome is, I think that it will be VERY close. Given that, whomever takes the helm of this ship of the Republic has a very EVENLY divided crew, and will have some rocky waters with Pandemic and deficits as they are. I already think this time it won't go my way; but I do hope that, divided we are, we can be like so many on this Forum. We all come from different ages, races, creeds, cultures, political parties, religions. And we all listen to one another, and try to help others. We are all going to have to understand that this has been a fair fight, and now we have to learn to get along and talk with one another, and help our struggling country and its people the best way we can.
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polarbear;

"You dare call them selfish for wanting to go to work and earn a living?"

Sorry to have to reply, but you are making more of my statements than the intent. For the record:

I NEVER said ANYTHING about people wanting or needing to work, nor did I say EVERYTHING needs to be locked down. Total lock down wouldn't be my idea on how to protect others, esp where the spread of the virus is low. Those who could continue to work safely SHOULD be allowed to. In some cases job loss is a consequence of people not being able to travel, go out to eat, movies, etc. Tourism, BUT, if it could be done safely, let it happen.

I was referring to the people who REFUSE to even consider TRYING to mitigate the spread, to spare those who are more and most vulnerable. I refer to those who consider wearing a mask just when indoors or in close proximity to others as a HUGE infringement on their rights. People who throw a hissy fit picking up coffee, and can't/won't wear the mask for the few minutes it takes to do their business. Just some examples - there are worse ones. But, there are VERY nice people too. People who DO try and DO care.

I'm also disgusted with those in Congress who have dithered and refused to come up with SOMETHING for people like your aunt and uncle. People who stand to lose their homes or apartments. People who can't afford to buy food. People who have lost their jobs and all their savings, while these rich clowns balk at helping. THAT, just to be sure we understand each other, applies to ALL who are balking, not any one person or party. They should be working together for US, as WE are the only reason they even have these nice cushy jobs.

THOSE who refuse to try OR demand they get what they want NOW are selfish people. I'm also referring to those who want to go out and party, get their hair and nails done, etc, doing things that are NOT really that important in the bigger picture, without regard to others. Fun? Sure. We'd all like to return to normal. Necessary? Not really, unless these things can be done safely to protect oneself and others. Obviously many places have had to remain open, in order to provide at least necessities. I feel SO bad for those who work there, as they have to wear the masks most of the day. I don't like wearing one either, but if it protects me or someone else EVEN just a little bit, it's better than nothing. If they were only endangering themselves, have at it. But, that's not the case.

It sucks being stuck at home even for those of us who don't have to work. I limit what I do when out and only go shopping about every 2 weeks, sometimes I wait even longer. I would ***LOVE*** to be able to hire people to finish this house - between mom and finances, the needed work was delayed. Six YEARS in a half repaired place SUCKS. Now that I CAN pay someone, I have to be careful. My bros are useless and I can't take the chance of getting sick, or who will oversee my mother's care properly???????? I would ***LOVE*** to be able to visit my son, his wife and my grandson.

Please don't put words into my mouth. There are only so many characters allowed, so I can't write down everything. If you take better note of what I DID say, selfishness wouldn't refer to people needing or wanting to work.

"...but our biggest problems here are selfishness and politicizing... The ME ME ME ME ME people."

Per M-W:
"Selfishness definition is - the quality or state of being selfish : a concern for one's own welfare or advantage at the expense of or in disregard of others"

On the other hand is selflessness:

self·less·ness
"concern more with the needs and wishes of others than with one's own."

"Being selfless helps us identify and connect with others and that in and of itself is rewarding. It helps squash our egos because we are not acting out of pride or for a desire to be noticed. Selflessness helps us act from our heart and soul instead of our ego, tapping into our true desired feelings.
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Paul,

Will keep you posted but as of now it is a very close race between the candidates. Votes are still being counted.
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My mom is 92 lives with me and needs a walker. We were scheduled to go to a doctors appointment but she refused to go saying she can’t walk. She can walk and we certainly would be providing any assistance she needed like a wheel chair and support. She simply refuses to do anything I ask of her. I’m so angry and sad that my resentment of her is growing. Any ideas on how to improve my attitude? I know she will never change
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Vincenza - To get the best response and advice, you should post your question separately.

The only thing I can say is to try to take a deep breath and let the frustration and anger slip away as best you can. You can't change her, only yourself. The anger will affect you likely more than her, but can upset her too. It is frustrating and nerve-wracking when they do this, but you have to try to work it out.

Would she be willing to go out for anything, such as shopping or for coffee? Perhaps you can entice her out and then get her to the docs while out? She might balk once you get there, so that's an issue. The only other suggestion is using TeleHealth?

I'm not a big fan of TeleHealth unless the appt is for something obvious that can be checked and addressed. IF weight and BP can be checked at home, that can be reported. If she has heart problems or breathing problems, it is better to have the in office visit, so they can listen. If one can't do weight and BP checks at home, how do they do a regular checkup online??

When the lock down first happened, they called to schedule mom's regular check as a TeleHealth. Mine too.

For mom, a combination of dementia and hearing loss would make doing a checkup online very difficult. Add to that the fact that I can't be there with her and perhaps her not even understanding what it is all about, so we just waited. They did have to conduct one with the MC nurse attending after she had a stroke, so doc could document it and order necessities.

For me, I'm not on meds and have no real health issues, so I found this online "checkup" rather useless. They can't do height, weight, BP, listen to heart and lungs, so what exactly would they do for me? I'll wait.

Anyway, to get the best response, try posting your own thread!
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Vincenza, how to not be angry? A few suggestions.

Think " My mom doesn't care, why should I care more than she does about her issues?"

View her as you would an elderly neighbor. Would you get upset if that neighbor doesn't do what you think is best? No. Maybe concerned, but not angry.

Your mom doesn't have dementia. She is in control of her mind, so she decides. Whatever the consequences are, they are solely on her.
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Vincenza,

Have you considered calling in hospice? It may help to have help. It is a huge responsibility to care for someone and often becomes a burden to the caregiver. Do you have any outside help for your mom?

Caregiving is hard and comes with a mixed bag of emotions. It takes time to process everything. Have you considered speaking to a therapist?

It helped me tremendously when I reached out to an objective professional. They see things that we miss. We are too close to the situation.

Best wishes to you and your mom.
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Vincenza, sounds like your Mother has voiced her opinion - with her feet. Not walking, not going, doesn't want to go!

Do you know WHY she doesn't want to go?

My relative won't go to the Doctor unless SHE decides she needs to.

Some may call it stubborn, but everyone wants their own life choices don't they?

I think a new thread on stubborn/anger is a great idea.
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Yes, sometimes you can't get someone, especially an stubborn elder, to do what should be done in his/her own best interest. In that case, you gain nothing by working yourself up about it (as at least as much as you would a small child who doesn't yet have the maturity and wisdom to understand this).

Maybe an thread on "stubbornness" would be helpful, although I suspect there are already many that deal with this, either directly or indirectly.
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Paul - your thread has been infected! Or at least hi-jacked...

How are things going? Dad still being his usual PITA self? How are the wife and kids? Kittens? You?
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Maybe the thread just grew a few "branches"--but you are correct to go back to the main subject. I hope Paul is doing well.
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Bob,

Like your attitude 😊
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Thanks, NHWM!
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