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polar - well shes having an MRI next day or two but they've found "something". Of course, wife has spoken to the consultant but I think whether its something bad or not so bad they need to operate anyway.

Not sure if anyone has even mentioned the do nothing option to be honest. We're all waiting for next week to see deffo whats going on to be honest.

Shes been in a few weeks now, originally they thought inflamatory bowel disease but they cant control the infections at the moment. My understanding is if they did nothing she;d go septic and that would be fatal.

Yeh shes 80 years old. I dunno. Before this she was pretty good. She has always had a bit of a longing though to go since her husband died 18+ year ago. (part of the not looking after herself - her attitude used to be I dont care now hes gone).

My wife is worried that if the options are bag, and/or she can't live at home then she wont go for it.

I am really sad. Yes she can be very annoying at times (not as bad as Dad) but shes nice. My daugher whos 7 absolutely adores her - I just can't even think about how upset she'd be in she goes.... :-(((((((
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Sorry to hear this Paul. Let the medics do their stuff over the next week or so, then look at the options. If your MIL is capable of decision making, you might then have to let her make her choice on what happens next, assuming what she chooses is doable. It might not turn out to be what you/your wife would choose. Best to try not to overthink it all at the moment until you have more information, although I accept this is easier said than done....
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Paul,

So sorry that you and your wife are in this situation.

It’s so hard making these decisions.

Has she expressed to your wife what she would like in a situation like this?
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Paul, is there any chance your father would listen if it were explained to him that having lots of stuff in the freezer will help maintain the cold when it is opened (as opposed to warm outside air rushing in and needing to be cooled)? You could tell him it might help him save electricity. You could promise to visit him as often even if you aren't bringing a handful of groceries!
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NHWM--I'm glad you enjoy this! :-) I have a slide projector given to me by my father in the mid-1990s, and I haven't used it much as this was getting toward the end of the slide era.

Back as long ago as the late 1960s I was visiting a family who needed to go on an errand while I was there, and welcomed me to use their sound system. I thanked them, and after they left, I looked at it and wondered "Now, how do I turn this on? And what are all these additional buttons and sliding switches for?" So I ended up not using it, figuring I would end up damaging something. I remembered when a phonograph had off/volume and speed switches--16, 33, 45 (with an adapter for the center), and 78, although I never saw a record requiring the 16. The "needle" was like a staple missing one of the two ends. You either put the records on one at a time, or some fancy ones allowed you to stack a few on a spindle, and they would drop one at a time. I wonder if Joe Biden, who is a decade older than I am, remembers a "record player" more basic than this!

My sister bought a new Mazda a few years ago having a manual transmission, which wasn't easy to find; maybe she's simply a "purist". I've driven a few in the past that belonged to other people, but I regret that I've never had a chance to drive one having a manual transmission "on the column". However, I'm thankful that I've had the opportunity to travel in a Martin 404--a piston-engined aircraft that first appeared in 1947; other people hated to fly in them. but I recognized it as the finale of an era that was about to end.
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Bob,

I wish I still had my record collection!

Wow, sound like a cool aircraft!

I love flying. I like road trips too but I love seeing the aerial views!
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jacksonbob- now theres an idea....
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MIL is a bit useless with things like this....

ITs been awful for my wife when shes been in hospital. Its just lucky they know shes a nurse and the doctor has been willing to ring her.

MIL sits there nods and says yes but hasnt got a clue. Wife told staff this and make sure she understands. Next day - nodded yes yes then didnt have a clue.

She doesnt listen and won't make a decision for herself anyway....
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Paul,

So sorry that your wife is going through this with her mom. It’s very sad.
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Oh boy! Is MIL really incapable of understanding and making medical decisions for herself? Or is she just saying yes yes so that people leave her alone and she won't have to make any hard decisions?
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Just about old record players, as at least that was something light for Paul. When I was a child, we had an old record player for kids in the garage. Wind up, only 78 hard records, cane needles, and you put the ‘stylus’ on the record yourself – it weighed a ton. Late 1940s records. ‘Put another nickle in, in the nickleodeon, all I want is loving you, and music music music’. Mind you, we were too innocent to wonder about the next bit - ‘I’d do anything for you, anything you want me to, all I want is kissing you and music music music’. Perhaps Teresa Brewer was less innocent than us!
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Polarbear, from all that Paul has written over the past several months, I suspect that there is Vascular dementia in play.
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Margaret, I'm impressed! I've never seen a windup record player. I remember the nickleodeon or jukebox; some of them could be activated from every table in a diner or restaurant. Those were happy days, after which the TV show was named.

NHWM--I like both flying and driving, but the former has gotten to be more of a hassle in recent years (due to 9/11) and now COVID is a factor, too. It often takes less time to drive somewhere than to fly when the extra time necessary besides the actual flight time is considered. My father flew a P-38 in the US Army Air Corps in the Pacific Theatre (Philippines and New Guinea) during WW II, so I had heard a lot about flying since I was a small child, and we used to go to the observation areas at Newark Airport during the mid-1960s to watch the planes load and unload passengers, and my father taught me about each kind of aircraft. I didn't get to fly until after my freshman year of college, in mid-1971. It looks as if 2020 will be the first year in a long time during which I haven't flown.
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Hey Bob,

I just happened to catch your post.

My husband loves WWII planes. He would have loved to hear your dad's stories about flying a P-38 and my dad was in the US Army Air Corps in the Pacific Theatre too - he was in the Philippines and Okinawa - what a small world!!
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JacobsSonBob,

You flew in a Martin 404?   Wow!  Please tell us more about your flying career!   Were you a pilot, co-pil, flight engineer or passenger?   

Are you an air show devotee?
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All - part of the problem with MIL is when she was married, wifes Dad was a lovely guy but he totally controlled her and she didnt mind. He basically did it all and she had to think about nothing.

Of course when he died she expected her kids to take over and its been a fight ever since. She just cannot be bother to be honest more than anything. Why bother to go to the effort of thinking about something when someone else can do it for you?

My Dad does this as well. Play dull and get what you want....

To be honest, when it suits her, MIL is very capable. Shes certainly very clever when she wants to be. 95% of this is just her not bothering and switching off....
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NobodyGetsIt--Yes, my father would have enjoyed talking with your husband (and your father, too). Unfortunately, I lost my father in May 2014.

GardenArtist--I must have misled you: I flew as a PASSENGER, not a pilot (even though there were often only a couple passengers on the plane designed to hold 40). I used to sit by a window across from an engine so I could watch the radial engine start up, see the exhaust manifolds glow and watch flames spew out the exhaust pipes (yellow when taking off, blue when cruising, due to rich vs lean fuel mixtures, as my father had described). My father taught me how to distinguish an air-cooled aircraft engine (such as on the Martin 404) from one that is liquid-cooled (such as on the P-38). For some reason I can't fathom, when I described the Martin 404 to my father, he was convinced I was describing a turboprop--maybe he simply couldn't believe that a piston-powered radial engine would still be used on a commercial airliner.

I've never had any kind of flight training, and with the kind of vision I've had for so many years it wasn't a likely option. I've never even flown in a small private aircraft or a helicopter.

I've been to a couple air shows, the main one being in central Pennsylvania honoring WW II veteran pilots, particularly those from that area, so they gave my father special recognition so we had a display of items and photos from his experience, and my father was sitting there to talk about it and answer questions. my father had flown various kinds of planes during training, etc., and there were a couple there with which he was familiar. There was a possibility that he would get a chance to ride in one of them, but the owner had only enough fuel to make the trip back safely to where they lived. Unfortunately, I'm interested in too many different things, so I'm limited as to what I can do for each! (BTW, Jacobson is our family name; my father was named Stephen, so when I visited older people who knew him, they only seemed to remember me as "Steve's boy".)
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Jacobsonbob, I was seriously afraid of flying after a bad long haul flight once. So, pre 9/11, my husband arranged for me to go up to the cockpit during a European flight - he knew some of the flight crew. The view over the French Alps from the cockpit was amazing - and the pilot had been asked to put his hands on the wheel before I came in, to reassure me that someone was actually flying the plane! I remember looking at him and thinking, OK, he looks sensible, let’s hope he knows what he’s doing! On a separate note, there’s nothing wrong with having lots and lots of interests - it keeps the brain alive.. remember, use it or lose it!
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Paul, my mum is the same as your MIL. Quite happy to let others take the strain. I think my mother’s epitaph would be
“ I let someone else do it”. My view these days is that if they can’t or won’t make a decision, and you have to do it, then if they don’t like what you have decided, it really is too bad. I’ve often wondered if a fair number of people in care homes are there because they couldn’t be bothered rather than because they actually needed care.
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Jacobsonbob, you didn't mislead me; I just made assumptions!

I really enjoyed reading that post, thinking of the observations being made , as well as your father's sharing of his experience at an air show.   For air show lovers like my father and me, these are some of the best aspects of air shows.    My father used to chat with the pilots when we went, and he'd explain aspects of the planes to me.  He was a flight engineer in a B-29 during WWII.
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Chriscat83, I'm glad you had that opportunity! Hopedly, it overcame your fear of flying. My mother was on a very rough flight (due to a storm) about 1950, and most people on the plane became airsick. She didn't fly again until 1978, mainly because she was afraid of getting airsick, so my father and I had to convince her that flying on modern jet aircraft was completely different. After her flight in 1978, she was willing to fly again.

Regarding having many interests, a considerable part of my planning for when I'm incapacitated, too old or dead is deciding what to do with what I've accumulated; I'm already in contact with museums for part of it.

GardenArtist, I'm sure your father would have a lot of interesting things to share about his experience in a B-29. That was an impressive aircraft with an equally impressive history. As you may already know, the Wikipedia article on this aircraft has a photo of the flight engineer's station on the "Bockscar" that dropped the "Fat Boy" bomb on Nagasaki.
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"jacobsonbob,"

We used to go to the airport too and stand on the observation deck to watch the planes come and go - what a shame that was taken away from us.

I used to buy my husband "Flight Journal" and "Warbirds" magazine subscriptions as a gift and I forgot that I had bought him a P-38 t-shirt along with a few others. He also likes to watch YouTuber "Kermit Weeks" videos - he owns a lot of war planes. One year, I bought him a two - volume set of "The Wright Brother's" journals.

I read him your post - he knew about the Martin 404. His biggest thrill was buying a flight in a P-51, one of his favorite planes. His uncle was a B-17 ball turret gunner and flew 30 missions - amazing he survived that many!

That's too bad that you were known just as "Steve's boy" when visiting the older men who knew your dad. Sounds like you learned a lot from him though!
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"He basically did it all and she had to think about nothing.

Of course when he died she expected her kids to take over and its been a fight ever since. She just cannot be bother to be honest more than anything. Why bother to go to the effort of thinking about something when someone else can do it for you?"

This is where your wife and her siblings need to have a united front. Mom doesn't want to make decisions, so they all have to tell her these are your choices:
1) Do what the doctors and nurses are telling you
or
2) You move to a home so they can help you.

Hoping it doesn't come to surgery, or at least not a "bag", but if it does and she's that negligent about self care, then option #2 may be the only one. With a job and kids, your wife won't be able to provide the care needed. Siblings are probably in the same age bracket/boat. If she was better about taking care of herself in general, some assistance in her own home would probably work, but it doesn't sound like that would be the case.

As if you didn't have enough to deal with :-(
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Paul, there’s an answer to MIL’s feeling “Why bother to go to the effort of thinking about something when someone else can do it for you?”. The answer is ‘if you let them think for you, you then go along with what they think.’ You can’t have it both ways – you can’t not plan yourself, but then refuse to follow their plans.

It’s good that your wife and her siblings are standing up against it. MIL probably picked on you and your family to bludge off, because of what you modeled with Dad. There’s a lesson in there – let your wife call more of the shots with your Dad. She’s getting to have the runs on the board!

Decline and death are never that great, and worse when the bad bits seem to be the product of stupid behaviors. Commiserations from Margaret
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Margaret: "you can’t not plan yourself, but then refuse to follow their plans". That's exactly what I am dealing with too!

What's that saying?
Lead, Follow or Get (outta the way).

Won't follow my lead, I won't follow their half-baked plans so that leaves Get!

Just wait & see time Paul. If it is 'the bag' MIL will need to be independent with it to enable her to live alone. Many can do even they think they can't, but some really just can't. My FIL just couldn't due to hernia & awkward emergency location of the thing. But he didn't live alone & they managed as a team.

What won't fly is a plan for someone NOT living with MIL to attend to this. So NO to any plan for your wife (nurse or not) to be on call everytime it leaks, bursts or needs changing.

It is a life changing event & I hope she can avoid it.
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"The I can't do it therefore YOU have to do it"

Probably a proper psychology term out there but I'm calling these types of personalities
*Fragile Bullies*.
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Beatty, agreed. I call it "playing helpless" - letting the greater fool (you, me) take the strain...
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Well we're waiting to see this week what the plan is going to be with MIL re: operation.

To be honest, her attitude is why she always ended up our house. She'd pick and choose best option. As we found out later, she was turning down offers to go to her other kids becaiuse she "preferred" us.

Luckily, all the siblings are together on this. Its good. They've all seen whats happening.

Wife always said shes got skin of a rhino though. She must know shes upset everyone but she wont change.

Yeh if she gets a bag she wont do it. Can't be bothered. She refused to cook for herself "can't be bothered and it'll get the cooker dirty" so doing a bag.....

At one point, she didnt know how to turn the tv to another channel so her son used to come around. Weird I know.
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paul: Wow. Hope things get better for your wife as it relates to your MIL.
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Paul, I felt like I was reading about my own experience with my dad. I also live 30 minutes away from my dad with two brothers that live only 10 minutes away from him. They don't help. I just joined this forum today because I am at the end of my rope, I don't know how to manage my mental health, when every time I talk to him all my progress is trashed. Hopefully I can find some support and help here. Good luck with your dad.
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