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We have a news item today quoting the Chief Epidemiologist in Sweden saying "Striving for herd immunity is neither ethical nor otherwise justifiable”. Sweden has just hit its highest daily new case tally.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-10-30/sweden-hits-highest-daily-coronavirus-case-number/12829990
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Polar Bear, how many Americans will you sacrifice to have herd immunity? I believe you should read Dr. Anthony Fauci on the subject, or honestly any others. Herd immunity means wholesale death of the vulnerable. It hasn't worked for Sweden, who thought to try this, small country they are with the best chance at it. But no, hasn't worked. The fact is that immunity from this virus they now think may last as little as 6 months after infection. That isn't very good. It can be hoped that it will weaken over time as more and more have more and more antibodies, but that is a tinkers chance.
You are correct that we cannot remain locked down forever. We will have to learn to lived with it. That means CAREFUL handwashing, avoiding crowds and groups, protecting the vulnerable, careful masking and handwashing. That alone would have saved 100s of deaths in the United States, but we did not do it.
My daughter's friend thought it safe to go to a SEattle Sea Hawks celebration party, 17 people being relatively careful. 7 got it in the week, now 10, one dead. The virus is on the rise. Take good care of yourself. It will be with us as the flu was with us in 1918, perhaps not that bad, but is closing in on the number of men we lost in the second world war. There will be more.
I sometimes like to think where we would be without our wars and our viruses. We have no natural enemies. Save this.
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Barb,

I feel exactly the same way. Yes, we are being extra cautious due to my husband’s cancer but even if he didn’t have cancer we would still be very hesitant to be in a group without social distancing. Being outdoors and taking precautions is better than being indoors.

I think about our Mardi Gras parades. Many were infected during our carnival season. People are standing very close to each other at parades. People share food. They are drinking. They are catching throws from the floats. People literally dance in the streets, it’s a huge party going on! Hugging and kissing! Ect, etc, etc.

We love our parades. I adore the St. Patty Day parades but I am glad they were canceled. We have parades to celebrate everything in our city. We had enough infections from Mardi Gras but no one knew about how serious Covid was then. As soon as the mayor knew she pretty much shut the city down and followed the governor’s restrictions which I am sure saved lives.

The mayor made the right call to cancel all of our music festivals in the city. I agree with our governor’s restrictions for the state of Louisiana.

As sad as it was not to see my daughter walk across a stage to receive her diploma this year, her university did the right thing to mail out the graduate’s diplomas.

It breaks my heart to see businesses closed forever due to Covid. No doubt the economy is hurting. New Orleans depends on it’s tourists to boost revenues. Travel is down. I wonder how the airline industry will fare in the long run.

We could surely go on and on about many things. No telling when a vaccine will be available.

I am glad we had the option to vote early by mail! That helped many people. We mailed our ballots off weeks ago.

Everyone will be so relieved when Covid is no longer hanging over our heads.

I have always been a thorough hand washer. I wonder what changes will stick around due to this pandemic. It’s interesting to think about.

For instance, what about simple hand shaking? Will the practice of shaking hands during sharing the ‘sign of peace’ during Mass be discontinued? We have stopped handshaking even during a very high flu season. I am not anti social but personally I feel that we can do without it. That practice was introduced when I was a kid. It isn’t an age old part of our liturgy.

I always remember my mother in law saying, “People will shake our hand in church, then run us down in the parking lot!” LOL Loved her wicked sense of humor!

We have been watching Mass on television or online since Covid hit our city.

Archbishop Aymond has announced that no one is required to attend Mass since the pandemic. He encourages watching the Mass on television or to stream it online.
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The only way to beat this virus is herd immunity. People who contracted the virus are now immune.

We can lock down and hide, then come out, then lock down and hide. All it does is prolong the pandemic and keep us from reaching herd immunity. People die every day from everything. It seems like the only deaths that matter now are COVID deaths.

Lockdown has NOT helped the death toll as we have already seen over the last 8 months. If lockdown worked, we wouldn't be having 1000 deaths a day, a statistic someone quoted a few days ago.
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You need to compare apples to apples, if you put Sweden against the other Nordic countries they have not done nearly as well. And while Sweden may not have mandated lock downs it isn't quite as black or white as that, they did make suggestions about limiting the size and frequency of social gatherings which most of the population have followed voluntarily.
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Polar, if you live alone (as several of my good friends here in NYC do) you can meet on a park bench, wear a mask and have a socially distanced visit. I did this today in 40 degree temps and will continue to do it all winter long.

You can agree to make yourself a "pod" as I have done with my kids and God help me, my ex and his wife so that we were able to have socially distanced BBQs and birthday parties in a park or a back yard. Thanksgiving will be each one at home and then socially distanced pie outdoors after our meals.

I think if you look at the lessons of the 1918 pandemic (masks, social distancing) and of Ebola (containment, quick contacts tracing at the very start) and you understand the science of air and droplet borne illnesses, the techniques you use are pretty simply if everyone realizes that the restrictions are temporary and for the good of all.

In NYC, we are hanging on my our fingernails but the folks who find the need to go out to indoor bars, outdoor restaurants with shoulder to shoulder crowds and relgious services with no restrictions and the like are starting a new spread.
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Barb, the point is that Sweden's numbers are no worse than the rest of the world, yet they are not locking down and putting themselves in isolation. Social isolation is as bad as being in jail for those who live alone.
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Some countries seem to be helped by being smaller, in some cases those thriving are Islands in some senses, with travel restrictions. It is my opinion that none will escape, and we need to follow the best advice we can follow in all of this. But whatever countries are now doing well? I wish them luck and hope for them, but I doubt it will last. Depends on how long places like New Zealand can stay isolated. Perhaps a long time (I think they are not isolated, but doing careful testing of visitors. They are small. They can do this. Much more difficult for big places.)
Because the slogans have become so much "You wear a mask to protect OTHERS" some people are not understanding that masks also help YOU. Am reposting the mask information so we can know which help US, how they help and how much they help. It is:
https://www.fda.gov/medical-devices/personal-protective-equipment-infection-control/n95-respirators-surgical-masks-and-face-masks
Remember, when you see people in NON-Covid-19 days in medical settings wearing masks, they are often wearing them to protect THEMSELVES AND YOU. So mask up. Hand wash. Social distance.
This is a pandemic. There was little question it would come back, and it would peak again in the autumn and now it is. This virus will go on a long time and there are no good answers about "locking down" and "opening up". Vaccine will be a whole. Likely only 60% will take it. And likely only 60% of THEM will be helped by it. We are going to be living with this, and living with it is very difficult. Not everything has an answer or can be fixed, but we CAN do the best we can do.
Because so many of us love this Elder Forum we are hearing so much about the devastation from both the disease and the isolation for our elders, and those caring for them are up against it as well. Hard times.
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Has anyone seen Sweden's numbers? They don't look so good to me. https://www.google.com/search?q=sweden+covid&oq=sweden&aqs=chrome.2.69i57j46j69i59j0l2.2757j0j4&client=ms-android-samsung-ss&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8

New Zealand seems to be a place that is getting it right.
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New York is one of the most crowded cities in the USA. Most of our cities are not any where near that density.
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And New York has 27,000 per square mile.

It is much easier to look efficient and disciplined when you are dealing with smaller, simpler systems.
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CM - Do people in Sweden spread out evenly over their land? Meaning only 23 people occupy a sq km? Of course not, that would be silly. Sweden people still congregate in big urban cities like people do in other countries. Stockholm city for instance has a population of 1,641,514 with a density of 4,279 people per sq. km. They have markets, churches, night clubs, etc. that draw crowds just like anywhere else.
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Sweden has a population density of 22.97 persons per square kilometre.

The United Kingdom, 279.95.

Horses for courses.
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polar- yep sweden have been right from the get go.
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Polar - here in the UK, Wales and Scotland have "some" devolved powers i.e. our government. Even thought we're all British and have representatives in London we've got our own parliaments too.

I always though it was a good idea until 8 months ago.

Westminster government is right wing (Conservative - Boris Johnson). Wales government is left wing (Labour - Wales is ALWAYS labour). Wales have healthcare as a devolved power.

So Central government decide one thing, Wales (being other end of political spectrum) do the opposite because they can. Same in Scotland (although ruling party there is SNP - scottish nationalists). ITs all a political game now.
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I strongly disagree with both Margaret an bob. But I won't delve further into it as it will get political.

I also see that AC deleted part of my earlier comments about Sweden doing it correctly.
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I agree with MargaretMcKen--restricting activities and movement doesn't make those in charge particularly popular, so they are likely reluctant to resort to it only because they believe it will help the situation. Unfortunately, tracking one's contacts is becoming impractical now because many new cases are popping up that most patients don't know from whom or what they caught it. Let's all just hope for an effective vaccine as soon as possible.
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Dear Paul, take care. And PolarBear, we have no vaccine yet so no-one knows how long one might last. The leaders here and in many places are working as hard as they can in incredibly stressful circumstances. I very much doubt if the good ones are ‘enjoying the power’.
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That is so crazy Paul. Lockdown, reopen, lockdown, reopen. Same in many parts of the USA.. That's the strategy for how long? No one knows. Even with the vaccine, people can still get the virus. So, lockdown and reopen repetedly forever? Truly crazy. But one thing for sure. Those in charge are enjoying their power to control the masses.
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polar- yes socks I guess same as bootstraps......

I guess in USA you'd say something like "put your big boy pants on". Either way its not nice....

Yeh we had limited halloween on out front driveway (not sure what its in usa - front yard). We've got loads of inflatables (mostly brought home from florida!) but we had to cut down this year.
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Yes Englands going into lockdown from next Thursday for a month.

Wales (and NI I think) have been in lockdown for just over a week. Ends Nov 9th.
So far in wales they've said Nov 9th will go back to normal - so no more regional lockdown after this. Means I'd be free to go see Dad :-(

What will happen - who knows?

Theres been a lot of unrest in wales, the government stopped supermarkets selling clothes, kitchen utensils etc which was crazy. You could but a tin of soup but not a tin opener. There was even one store who stopped shoppers buying womans sanitary products as "non essential".
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Polar,

Oh yes, overpriced but once in awhile it’s fun to do!

Do you think the movie industry is going to survive? They have been struggling for awhile. The competition with Netflix, HuLu and others, it has been hard for them.

It must have felt strange being there, huh? Everything is so different now.

It is nice to see a movie on the big screen. Of course, nowadays people buy big screen televisions to watch at home.
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Paul,

Yep! Common attitude for your dad’s generation. You know, our kids don’t feel the way past generations have felt. We are raising them differently. I have a lot of faith in the next generation. I find our youth aren’t intimidated very easily. They have never known a world without technology. They are fearless and will be problem solvers.

I’m a boomer. We will be dying off. (hopefully not soon, LOL) We have to pass the torch into their hands. I know all generations make certain mistakes but I always hope for improvements in every new generation.
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NHWM - It was nice to go out for entertainment. We had popcorn with butter, candies and drinks. Way overpriced, but I don't mind. The theater needs business, and the employees need their jobs.
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Polar,

A movie! Fun! Some normalcy. Bet your girls enjoyed it.
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Paul - Happy Halloween! How do people usually celebrate it in Wales? We decorated the front yard with the usual RIP signs, skeletons, etc. and a couple of pumpkins at the front door. I took my two girls to go see a scary movie at the theater yesterday. Besides us, there were 2 other people. Big crowd. The nice thing was that all 5 of us agreed it was too loud, so we asked the management to turn the volume down for us. And they did.

Your wife has a tough year, knee surgery and then skin cancer-good that it's benign. I hope her knee will heal and be as good as new.

As for your dad bugging you about what to do with his bank paperwork, my mom used to the same to me too (when she still had her mind.) I really think it was because she didn't have anything else to keep her occupied, so whatever came in the mail became her focus and she kept nagging me to come and take a look because it "could" be important. It never was.

It's interesting to read the idioms used by English speaking people outside the US. I understand when Margaret said "driving his wife around the bend' because we use "driving someone up the wall" or "driving someone nuts". I understand your dad's statement "pull your socks up" too. Never heard it before, but it sure sounds like "pull yourself up by the bootstraps." Hahaha.
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I am thinking of you Paul, in the new UK lockdowns.

My city has just released from lockdown. Can leave house whenever I like but some restrictions still around visiting other households - so I am not 🙃
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While the article states Wales, Scotland, N. Ireland set their own rules, I would think this:

"British Prime Minister Boris Johnson on Saturday announced a new month-long lockdown for England after being warned that without tough action a resurgent coronavirus outbreak will overwhelm hospitals in weeks."

will likely mean extensions to any existing rules in the other localities...

Good news for Paul?
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Yeh needhelp - he is very anxious. 99% of the time over nothing....

I help but hes stubborn so a lot of it he brings on himself. I can only do so much.
I've tried to get him to speak to GP about his anxiety but, his opinion, is that there is no such thing as mental illness and you just need to "pull your socks up".

Alas, he doesnt practice what he preaches....
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TG - Nice to meet you. Hi from sunny Wales.

I think you're story tells me what it would be like if my Dad lived with me.....
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