It's been a hard week....

It was Sally's birthday. Dick & Carol decided to take her out & invite the extended family. They sent a fun invitation *Please join us Friday night at The Diner if you can :)*

RSVPs were returned.
Tim: Sorry I am busy. But I could come Saturday night. Jack: Sorry I am busy & I don't like the diner food. But if you have pizza another night I will come.
Jane: What would suit me better is lunch instead of dinner, Sunday instead of Friday, at a diner near my house, not yours.

Dick, Carol & Sally enjoyed their Friday night at the Diner (just them).

Carol was surprised anyone would try to control an invitation sent to them but Dick just shrugged it off. He said you can't please everyone.

While Tim & Jack had their own preferences & did go so far as to suggest alternatives to suit themselves, they didn't push it too far. They declined & said see you next time.

Jane however, continues to try to control every facet of her life. She does not recognise any boundary. The entire world & all people in it are to be manipulated to suit her own needs & preferences. Jane is socially blind to how this appears to others.

People think Jane is a PITA & stopped inviting her.

It seems pretty clear that your father does not ‘need’ you for all the stupid things he pushes for, he simply wants to win.

You were trained into this as a child. He taught you to think that he was wonderful and that he did so much for you. Your mother wasn’t there to give you another picture. There may even have been a time when you had to ‘choose’, for which you would have been schooled to give the answer he wanted (then he ‘won’, not your mother). You are his best victim, most of the others in his life have faded away. Your brother is self-centred, and that’s no fun for him. For you, Dad’s perpetual contests have become more and more extreme. Your own life is complex and you have real responsibilities that are far more important than his unnecessary demands.

You are heading towards where I ended up with my dreadful father – you work out what commonsense and your conscience tells you is right, and ignore everything else. Perhaps now that means ignoring him completely. Or you could just drop in unannounced when it works for you. Perhaps you simply make your ‘crisis’ plan and wait for it to be needed. The only thing you need to prove is that you can make your own decisions and stick to them. That’s how you can ‘resolve’ things – not by agreement with him. It’s sad to get to this point, but he has pushed you to it. Best wishes, Margaret

Been there, done that, got the t-shirt. You hit the nail on the head with this comment: “Hes less interested in me going to see him and more interested in me proving (again for the 1000th time) that he can get me do something he wants me to and I'll put him first.”

He is clearly a narcissist. They come in many forms. He’s what my hero, Dr. Les Carter, labels a Fragile Victim Narcissist. He explains very clearly at 7:20 in this video:

https://youtu.be/AOKmQRmwvdo

Yep Dad only ever agrees if its his idea....

Hes been on for weeks now for me to "take him out in the car" because I think he knows if I'm to do that I have to make significant sacrifices maybe. Drop the kids with someone, take most of a day etc.

If I come up with an idea then it must be what is easier for me so no big deal.

I worked this one out a while ago. Hes less interested in me going to see him and more interested in me proving (again for the 1000th time) that he can get me do something he wants me to and I'll put him first.

CM - I do vent a lot. I do want the issues resolved.

Ive come a LONG way but still I know I'm not great at resolving things....

Long ago, when we had to share holidays, it became an big issue. This one wanted us there, that one wanted us here. It became even worse when the ex remarried and had another child - bring in another set of grandparents and extended family! Any holidays or other "special" days became a nightmare! We (ME) decided to compromise and work around it all.

We did the best we could - there were an even number of holidays identified, and Xmas was split, allowing one to have the eve and morning, the other the rest of Xmas day, alternating each year. Thanksgiving was always taken, so we opted for Friday usually, as most of us had the 2 day holiday and it was a typical get together day for our side of the family. Same with birthdays for kids - do it when we can (when they fall on a weekday, not in summer, we would do weekend party.) Compromises, life is full of them and make everything a little easier. One year the ex exposed the kids to chicken pox, so the weekend birthday party that was planned with the kid's friends had to be rescheduled. Being that they were away every other weekend AND we had to wait for them to clear the virus, it was delayed 2 weeks. Compromise. Something that is sorely lacking in the world today!

But, when you get to someone like this who demands you do what HE dictates, it becomes more of a chore than a pleasurable experience. Margaret's interfaces with mother and MIL were likely a GOOD time! So, you attempt to compromise, as Paul did, and get shot down, well, so be it. Being offered to get taken out for a meal would make me happy! ANY DAY, not just some Hallmark dictated day, such as birthdays and holidays! I even told my kids thanks for whatever they attempted (daughter was often shamed into it by her father), but it wasn't necessary AND if you wanted to do something for me, do it on some random day, just because. THAT means more to me than following some dictate by someone else. It would mean you CARE about me! H***, I'd even pay! It's the NICE time we spend together I relish. I don't tell my kids to remember my b'day - I don't need more reminders that I'm getting older! Just remember me and get together when we can. Would I like more time together? Sure. But I understand that they are busy, have their own lives, work, family to deal with. Been there, done that myself!

It was many many years before I was even aware of what days were my parents' birthday - now it's engrained in my head as I manage everything for her and most contacts require name, DOB, etc. I would call or send a card when she was in her condo. Once in a while, more recently, I would bring cake and ice cream, cupcakes, whatever worked, cards, etc. Honestly, my mother, for all her issues, would also say it's just another day. She didn't care that much. She was happy we could get together when we could, no matter what day it was. Then again, she had a life, something the old curmudgeon doesn't even try to have.

If he's been offered a chance to see Paul and go out for a meal, but turns it down, what is it he really wants? Control. So, we offer choices:

option 1 dad - I come over, we have a nice meal out, sans kids, birthday card, gifts, whatever, get to spend some "quality" time together, or

option 2 dad - I wish you a happy birthday by phone, send a card in the mail, maybe have a cake and gifts sent over and you spend the day by yourself reflecting on why I am not coming over.

I question the "quality", as it doesn't seem to matter to him - he just wants to demand everyone kowtow to his demands. Read back on the times Paul did take him out, meals, nice weekend trip to games, and all the man did was complain about the costs, refused to enjoy the time/meals and grumble. I would certainly take those hints and not want to take him anywhere! We have enough negative days in general life, who needs more of it? There is NO pleasing this man, so you suck it up, offer choices and if he refuses, so be it.

I think, myself, that the only thing to get is that Paul does not really feel any need to resolve these issues. He is okay with them, and venting does him good.

Which is fine.

Okay, I think I'm starting to see the bigger picture, Paul. I apologize for not "getting" it earlier.

Nothing you do is enough for your dad. If you do one thing, he denigrates by upping the ante and trying to exert more control.

This is a personality dosorder. I would be very tempted to walk away and cut off all communication, for my own mental health.

I think that talking this over with a dispassionate 3rd party might serve you well.

OK I get you. My post of 31 August also said “Can you work out a plan for his future? It might cover what happens if you cut off support because he is impossible”. I think that you are almost there. You cut off support completely, and find out what happens then. It’s such a pity for both of you, but then so are world wars and Covid!

margaret - I have offered him an option, offered to take him out for a meal and hes refused. He basically wants me there when he wants me there which is impossible.

I would try but its become obvious that, once again, hes trying to get his own way and using his birthday as a trump card. I'm not interested in the games he plays like this.

I know it sounds mean. Same as him spending xmas day on his own. Hes had many, many chances and always chooses to use the occasion to his advantage to manipulate me.

Fully expecting a "when is your wife going to phone me for my birthday". Had this last year and he would not let that one go. It all got a bit silly. Shes never phoned him on his birthday in the past, I don't phone my MIL. Dad knows well that he's upset my wife. It was just an attempt to re-assert his authority over her or so he thought.

Sad thing too is not once, and he wont, will he say, I want to see my grandchildren on my birthday. He won't because he doesnt care - all he wants is to get me there and its a chance to get his own way.

Dear dear Paul, I went back and re-read my post of 31 August. I’m sad to think that you can’t do a visit for Dad’s birthday. I always did for my mother (easier because she was born on Christmas Day), but also for MIL and other rellies. Can’t you find a way that is bearable for you and kind for him? It shouldn’t be that hard.

Yep I realised some years ago hes never going to be happy. He just gets more and more unhappy the older he gets to be honest.

And, if I'm perfectly honest, the less and less I care.....

Again hes trying it on this weekend. Its his birthday so thats a reason for me to drop everything and go and see him.

"No one can change his long held belief that his family abandons him if he has to go into a home".

I think Polar bear nailed it.

That statement is actually two things blended together: a fact (where the person lives) + a thought (how they perceive the family cares/doesn't care). If you separate the two, there are more options...

I live in my own home.
My family cares about me.

I live in a care home.
My family cares about me.

Fact: The person just moved.

I live in my own home.
My family abandoned me.

I live in a care home.
My family abandoned me.

Fact: Family can stop caring wherever you live.

But I doubt that will ever be understood by Paul's Dad.

My DH sometimes veers down the primrose path of self-medication, and our great GP has two lines you might paraphrase:1) And where did You get Your medical degree; and 2) That is probably a sub-therapeutic dose. Might work with dad’s friend!

'Now when he moans I just say "I'm not a doctor, if you're not going to listen to medical advice then theres nothing I can do".'

Best answer!

Funny that he is fitting that mold we often see, where they won't listen to us (what do we know, we're just kids!) but they will listen to others!

While on some level I can agree with his friend about pain meds, on the other hand, if taking half leaves me in too much pain to function, then what good is it to even take that half? Either increase it to 3/4 or whole, or toss them out!

polarbear says:
'My husband jokingly says: "that is because God has mercy on us (men) and let us out of our life sentences (marriages) sooner." Haha.'

Hmmm, maybe it is god having mercy on us *women* for having to put up with so much of their (men's) crap!!!

Hi Paul. The more I read about you dad, the more I think he is a lost cause. There isn't anyone who can convince him to go into a care home. No one can change his long held belief that his family abandons him if he has to go into a home. And the shame of that, oh boy, is too great. Even later on if his health forces him to go into care, he will still believe that.

The best that can happen for him is not to have a long illness and just 'go' quickly. That's what happened to 4 men in my family: 3 had heart attacks and died suddenly, and 1 for some other cause that landed him in the hospital for a week before he passed. In general, most men don't live as long as women, and hence don't linger and suffer as long either. My husband jokingly says: "that is because God has mercy on us (men) and let us out of our life sentences (marriages) sooner." Haha.

Yep exactly the same as Dad. Will not even consider the future - think things magically happen. Or more likely, thinks everyone will have to do whatever needs doing to look after him.

lkdrymom - I probably mentioned his painkiller story in the past? Doc gave him painkillers for his knees/arthritis etc. His stupid friend told him that he shouldn't take the full dose because "he'd get addicted".

So what does he do, take half the dose, then moan to me hes in pain. Absolutely crazy. Now when he moans I just say "I'm not a doctor, if you're not going to listen to medical advice then theres nothing I can do".

Hes had stomach upset twice now in a month. Nothing major just for half a day each time then hes been fine. Same friend told him he needs to see a doctor. So hes been phoning them. Of course, GP has told him its nothing to be concerned about - will he listen? Nope he rings until he gets someone to agree with him.

Lkdrymom, same.

When I said (over & over) no future plan means being plonked into a hospital social worker's choice of nursing home. Silence.

But when the hospital discharge person called to discuss...when this very pathway was laid out (but was avoided this time). Shock. And a call to tell ME this could happen. Sheesh.

Sounds like my father. Would never believe anything I told him but never had cause to not believe me. Yet if a stranger told him something he would take it as gospel. When he was playing fast and loose with his blood pressure meds (wouldn't take them if he was feeling ok) I told him he had to take them every day and he refused to believe that was necessary. Next time he showed up at my office I had the receptionist tell him the same thing....THEN it was a good idea.

hi margaret,

Yes he has a will. Its split 50/50 with my brother.

He gets a pension. He also gets a thing called pension credit. Its basically where the government top up you're pension to a minimum amount.

BUT, because hes got so much savings, he doesn't get the full amount. So there's no real advantage to having savings sitting there - you get less income off the government! I've told him probably 500 times to spend some money. There are things in his flat that are well passed the sell by date. I think I mentioned before hes got a wardrobe in his bedroom thats pre-war. (First world war! its got a label 1908 or something). BUT its falling to bits.
Whenever I try to get him to spend - NO I dont want to waste my money theres no need.

In the past, hes said I'll give you and brother money now when you need instead of when I've gone. Great idea. I dont need it but it makes sense. Then he gives us £50. Not even a dent.

Brother has financial problems. Had no car. Dad suggested he'd help him out. I agreed - I had no problem with this. So Dad gave him £200 to buy a car with! Yeh right thats going to work.

I set up a savings account for him in my name. We got legal advice from a solicitor. Yes you can give a reasonable amount to your sons. (In the UK, you can't do things like give all your money to your kids, or sign the house over, then say you've got no money - they are VERY strict on this). Plan was he'd give me money on regular basis and I'd keep it for him...

Even though the solicitor said a few £1000 a year was fine I think Dad gave me about £1000 in 2/3 years. Whatever I said he didn't listen. Guess where that £200 I mentioned above came from? Yep. I said NO leave it alone, but he wouldn't. It was like burning a hole knowing he had money in another account and he didn't want to touch his main stash. Hes forgotten a little I think theres still £800 in there but its a drop in ocean....

I've told him until I'm blue in the face that if he needs to go into a care home they will use the savings and it will be mostly gone. I've even lied to him and said if he doesnt get it below a certain level all his pension credit will stop. Never works.

Hes just so stubborn. He doesnt think it will happen to him. I've resigned myself to the fact that this may well happen and there will be no legacy left.

I dont need the money, but his stupidity astounds me sometimes...

Dear Paul, Have you thought about having a talk with Dad about money. Clearly you think that is very important to him. He has saved such a lot (lots of compliments you can give about that), what does he want to happen with it eventually. Does he have a will? If not, please can he tell you his ideas. Remember about getting run down by a bus tomorrow etc etc, it would be good for you to hear his ideas. Perhaps he could agree to a setting up a trust with his needs first, then the rest for you? Your brother? Even the cat’s home? His grandchildren? He could be principal trustee, then you? Brother? I remember a law case from my law student days where the testator had left the lot to ‘erect a magnificent equestrian statue of myself’. It was successfully contested.

If he won’t do it, tell him what will happen if he doesn’t. You could even get a bit creative and say that the Charities Commissioner will try to get the lot, if he doesn’t make a testamentary disposition. (not totally true, but from my own experience with my Uncle in Lancashire, not totally untrue either).

Please don’t assume that none of these suggestions could possibly work! You have to try something!!!!

At least, have a look at facilities that might suit him if the crisis really does happen!

Beatty, you are not an extreme case.

My mother had 3 loving adult children. We and our spouses all worked and needed to continue to do so in order to afford our mortgages. And once my mom developed vascular dementia, it became quite clear that she needed a basketful of professionals to handle her care. Not us rank amateurs.

I never felt any guilt about the fact that my mom resided in a nursing home when that was the level of care prescribed.

There is not one molecule of my anatomy that contains an atom of guillt when I think this statement 'No, it is not possible for my Mother/Sister to be discharged to my home'.

I have full insight that it would ruin me physically, emotionally & financially.

So it is easy to state those words when I am required.

But I might be an extreme case... Others may say two week rehab at my home is fine, but then home or move out after that. Others build a 'Granny Flat' in the yard & happily have that daily interaction.

I know with the traits of dependant personality, controlling & possiblly narcissism that whatever I did, it would not be enough. I would be ordered around from sunrise to sunrise again & if I could do it, no other finger would be lifted. Living like that would indeed kill me.

Paul, you’re going back to ‘he has to agree’. This is for when he has no option except to go into care, whether he likes it or not. He won't be in a position to say yes or no. There is very little chance that paying for his own care will ‘literally kill him’. If it does, then everyone’s problems are solved, including his. Stop stop stop thinking that you have to let him call the shots.

Paul, you're not looking for " now". You're looking for when he is about to get discharged from hospital after a broken hip or pneumonia and the docs say "you can't live alone any longer; where are you being discharged to, sir?".

You want to have the address and phone numbers of at least 2 places that you've checked out so that the answer is not YOUR home address.

Because that will kill YOU and lose you your wife, I'd wager.

Good for you for starting to look. Well done.

Yes I've started looking.....

One big problem is going to be hes not really ill. And hes got loads of savings... This is something I've given up on.

In the UK, if you've got the savings then you pay for your own care home and its not cheap at all!

Dad, of course, no matter how many times over the years I've told him that hoarding money is pointless, has accrued thousands. It gives him a warm fuzzy feeling that its there and he doesnt spent it!

Of course, going into a home and its goodbye money. It will literally kill him - hes so obsessed with the money in his savings....

I like to say "eventually the future arrives"--what you foresee potentially (or perhaps inevitably) happening will suddenly knock on your door when you least expect it, and then everyone will have to scramble to do damage control. If you can take the necessary steps to prepare beforehand, you can save a lot of grief later on. The "incident" might not happen for almost a year--but then again it might happen at 2:30 AM tonight!

For our family, it was when mom called us three days running with an "emergency" that meant I had to leave work, drive from the far reaches of Brooklyn to Westchester to find that something pretty innocuous had happened.

On day three I sat mom down and said "I can't do this anymore".

Mom said "what?" (She clearly had NO idea how disruptive this all was. To all of us. She was not selfish person or narcissistic in any way, but the brain changes that had taken place, unbeknownst to all of us, had shrunk her universe so that she could no longer see that her needs and wants outweighed our ability to provide for them.

She dismissed my concerns about my job, about getting to her safely in bad weather (she lived in an isolated subdivision at the top of two hills; on one of these "emergency runs", a truck spun out on ice in front of me and I narrowly avoided what would have been a terrible collision). What finally got her attention was that I mentioned that my brother (a great guy, but always has been Mom's favorite) was going to have a heart attack from the stress of these "emergencies". She reluctantly agreed to look at various supportive places to live.

The single hardest thing I've ever done was saying "no" to my mom. But it had to be done, for my sake and for hers.

None of us have a crystal ball. But maybe it helps to have a rough outline of what you will / won't do.

As Barb mentioned, The Incident. Happens all the time.

At what point will it cross your line? Where you say No. I cannot be your nurse/maid/taxi.

Or maybe something smaller, like being unable to get out of a chair unaided. That was my line right there. (Did that pass a reasonable test? On call anytime for when stuck in a chair? Absolutely not).