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Fencing! That's a really good description!

I send EMS for falls - every time. I'm actually dreading the milder problems that you can't send EMS for. The I have a temp & can't reach the pain relief tablets &
a glass of water. Is being unable to get out of bed a legit reason to call?
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disgusted/Barb,

Every single phone call I get a moan about his hayfever. Really! Then, because he knows I get it too, he asks, so is this normal?

Its flippin hayfever. Its not nice but its not going to kill you. Honestly....

Yes I think he probably has got munchausens to be honest...

I wish sometimes here in the uk we had to pay for some medical services. Its all free to be be abused by Dad. Can guarantee if he had to pay a few pounds for a GP appointment he wouldnt call them even if he was dying....
Not listening to the GP is nuts though. What does he expect me to do about it?

But yes ALL alternatives are refused. Its got to be his way. He'll push and push then when hes not winning will revert right back to "oh its ok then".

Its like fencing with Dad. He will attack, poke and prod, to see if he can get in. If I defend he'll fall back into defensive mode, try again a few days later with a different attack.

Like I said, pretty sure we're ramping up to another "fall" here. Im waiting for the call from the hospital.
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Since he only seems to become "ill" when a vacation is planned or some other tactic to get Paul to drop everything and attend to him doesn't work, I don't think anything physical is wrong with him. Sniffles sometimes. As Paul says likely allergies. Won't pay to have anything delivered, won't go to the doctor. Paul isn't a medical person, so just what would him being there accomplish other than gratifying this man's need to control?

Having self-injured just to get to the doc and say 'see, I am hurt' is pretty sad. BUT, even if it is something medical, when Paul suggests going to the doctor, suddenly it isn't so bad. Add it all up, it is game playing to get what he WANTS and NOW.

While clearly your mother (Barb) was self-medicating, Paul's dad doesn't even take the medication Rxed by the doctors! He's not getting his way, so he plays these games. Some day it IS going to bite him in the behind, but by crying wolf just to make Paul come there for ridiculous reasons he is setting himself up.

It's also telling when a day or so after being 'so ill' he's off to the betting shop or to the local pub with friends. Sounds more like a kid playing hooky from school because he has a paper or test due, then miraculously he is cured the next day! When he whines he needs food and Paul offers delivery, suddenly he'll get by. Same with most everything he tries - if Paul has a solution for the "emergency" that doesn't requiring dropping everything and driving 40m each way, oh, it can wait. GAMES. Mind games. A whole bag of tactics to switch to when one or another doesn't work.

Were he here in the US, he might qualify for a Razzie award.
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I guess the question is, in part, what does "I've been ill" mean to dad?

To my mom, slightly loose bowels were a sign of impending demise. I don't know if it's generational or what, but diarrhea meant something VERY serious was going on.

After a LOT of investigating, it turned out mom was self medicating with Immodium and Laxatives. Took us a year to figure out why should would go anywhere.

This was one of the symptoms that the geriatric psych took into account when recommending a full neurolsych workup. Mom really could live alone anymore.
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While looking up the alternative Serenity Prayer (snide version) for another thread, I happened to find this - might be applicable, or at least get a chuckle from you!

When I'm having a bad day
and it seems that people are trying to wind me up,
it takes 42 muscles to frown,
28 to smile
and only 4 to extend my arm and smack someone in the mouth!

Smile when you say NO and end the conversation (in lieu of the smack, since you are on the phone)!! :-D
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BarbBrooklyn asks:

"...why is it that is dying to be in a hospital right now?"

Ever heard of Munchausen disorder?

"Factitious disorder imposed on self, also known as Munchausen syndrome, is a factitious disorder wherein those affected feign disease, illness, or psychological trauma to draw attention, sympathy, or reassurance to themselves."

It is one of the ways/ploys he tries to get sympathy/compliance. From the original post (and shows up various times in the comments):

"Always is when I go away for the weekend with my family...

You can guarantee when I come back he's "been ill". EVERY TIME. So I phoned him - first sentence "I've been ill"."

Some will even go so far as to inflict harm on themselves, to prove their point (remember paul's post about the supposed head injury, that the docs felt were self-inflicted?) Superficial injuries is about all he's likely capable of... I don't think he has it in himself to do any serious harm.
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Barb - anytime Dad feels a little under the weather he thinks he should be in hospital. He feels the medical profession "dont know what its like and they don't listen to how ill he is".

Of course, in reality hes just old. Health-wise hes pretty good - his doctors seem to think so anyway.

Probably another fake "fall" coming. The pattern from last time is repeating at the moment.
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So, why is it that is dying to be in a hospital right now?

Good for you for saying "no"!
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Beatty -

probably 6) nothing. Because it was all made up anyway to be honest.

Thats the dance we do. He tries it on, sometimes he gets away with it, mostly he doesnt. If it fails, try again next day.

4) is a possibililty. when things dont go his way. Sort of like "look how ill I am and you didnt come". Never works because hes in good health but at the moment hes dying to get into hospital I know.
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thanks all. He is going through one of his "phases" at the moment where hes worked out I'm not doing what he wants.

In his head, I should call x number of times a week, and visit x number of times a week as its my duty. Hence the trickery to up the numbers. Or I need to justify it and give a good reason - its weird.

I'm doing neither so he doesn't like it. As someone else said though, what pleasure can you get out of manipulating someone to visit who doesnt want to be there, I dont get it? Well done, you won, so what?
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Paul, I agree with everything Beatty said. You have to wait for the fall. The one that lands him in the hospital and then into a facility. I have finally learned to tell my mother no without any guilt.

my mother is turning 96 in 2 weeks. She’s still living in her hoarded house all by herself. I tell her no. I let her make her own decisions, I don’t tell her what to do, I don’t treat her like a child. I have stepped back. I see and talk to her once a week. My son goes over 2 or 3 times a week to bring in the mail and take out garbage. She takes call a bus to the grocery store all by herself. She has her mind but she can barely walk. She’s too vain to use a cane or walker. I get along with her GREAT as her DAUGHTER, not her caregiver. I learned to CARE without being the CAREGIVER.
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Paul - Well done!!! Once you've popped that cork, it will get easier to pour NO out! AWESOME! Wallow in your success, not his stupid reactions.

jacobsonbob:
and <b>NO.<b> is even more complete! (the <b> is for HTML to make the enclosed area bold!)

Beatty: I would only wager on #5 never happening (not into betting, but isn't there a way to bet negative odds? Could make a fortune on that one from someone who hasn't been on this thread!)

The rest, probably a crap shoot, but calling the other son would take high odds, followed by calling the doc! Go get it himself? No way, then he wouldn't have something he needs gotten for him! Cousin - wondering if that one already read the writing on the wall and high-tailed it out of there!
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Yes, as several have pointed out on this forum, "no" is a complete sentence.
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Paul, now you need to move on to ‘No’ with no reason at all. Baby steps, baby steps.
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Bets?
1.Scootered to the shops himself?
2. Called other son
3. Called cousin
4. Called Doctor as now ill
5. Took it on the chin - thought about it & decided he needs more home help.
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And the world did not come to an end.

How did he react?
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My Mother has compulsions. I've noticed that when a compulsion takes over - it really takes over. That's all she can think about. No listening to reason, no deferring it to later, no compromise to try another way. She loses all empathy for others at that time. You could have a broken arm & leg but if she wanted something from the top cupboard, she would still insist you get it.

I see similarities, but not quite the same. The *I need it now so YOU have to* is the same but the skill to change tack is different. The 'I've got no food - I'll starve - you must come' evolves (if it doesn't work) to 'I'm so ill - I might die - you must come'. It's more manipulation maybe?

I do think there is a lack of planning as well going on though. More like 'I've run out of my favorite food! I need it TODAY!' Rather than 'when you next come, could you please bring some xy food'.

Human nature is such a funny thing isn't it?

Keep chanting to him. Deliveries, deleveries, deliveries 😁
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Well done Paul!
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Tonight for probably the first time ever I gave him a one word reply "NO".

I said I'd visit next thursday evening. He didnt like that. Wanted me to come sooner. Thing is I'm not making it up -with wife working shifts and kids doing stuff its not a lie.

So he tried "but I need food". Not seen him for 5 weeks so suddenly one or two days makes a difference. Come on....

Then, "can't you make an effort for me?" That made me so mad....

I said "I'm BUSY until Thursday! No!"
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kmich0001 - it is good for paul to know he isn't alone (others have chimed in before.) Sounds like your mother is cut from the same cloth as his father!

As for the suggestions to send deliveries of ANY kind, this thread is over a year old and has 2k+ comments, so it isn't likely you would have read them all. His dad will NOT accept deliveries. He is a REAL pooper! He says he NEEDS to go shopping, but paul knows he has enough. If paul mentions having it delivered, he backs down and says he'll wait, so clearly he DIDN'T need whatever it was!

The brother is semi-useless as well, even after becoming unemployed (he sent his girlfriend now wife to take care of some things.) HE takes after their father and tries to dictate to paul how things will be split between them. Last I heard, he's been blocked by both paul and his wife!

It really has come down to a battle of wits or perhaps a power struggle. Paul needs to continue to stand his ground, set/maintain strong boundaries, and let the whining moaning complaining fall on deaf ears. He has been getting better at this! It does take time to learn what to do/not do. For instance he would give a reason why he couldn't come when dad insists he is needed (he isn't!), and dear old dad will change tactics and attack that excuse. The answer has to be a simple no, can't do it X day, I will be there Y day and stick to it! For too long pops has gotten his way and it will take time to get through, if ever. Sometimes we can make changes happen (but the other person has to be willing to learn and change), most of the time we have to change ourselves and how we deal with what life throws at us!

But, see paul, you aren't alone!
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You need time with your family. My mother has become a mean, very spoiled 84 year old. She says the same when I have not seen her for a few days but she has a sitter four hours everyday! Send dad delivery groceries and maybe a delivery cooked dinner. My sister and I take turns being available when we are out of town just in case there is an emergency. Suggest brother does the same with you.
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I just started watching The Sopranos (never seen it). The Grandmother character just cracks me up 🤣🤣.

Ep 1 & she set fire to her kitchen, gets a new home help woman but fires her, plays the 'poor old me' & won't drive to her son's house but drives all her friends around! (Although that ended badly - ran over one). Toured a lovely assisted living but screamed the place down about it being a nursing home. Only negative words spill from her mouth.

My DH & I were laughing our heads off.
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Paul--Unfortunately, there are people for whom no matter what you do, they won't LET you be the "good guy" because they'll find fault with anything and everything you do!
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Barb - yeh I guess I just want to be a good guy and not upset anyone....
I guess I still struggle with that.

Im getting there - I really dont care what he thinks of me any more...
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Paul, you don't seem to have the capacity to let your father sink or swim, do you?

Some how, you still want to be thanked for your efforts and appreciated as a "good son".

The problem here is in the mis-match between dad's expectations of you and what you are willing to do. In order for this to succeed, you need enough strength of ego if you like to KNOW in your own heart and soul that you ARE doing enough and that the lack of approval from your parent--about your job, your marriage, your lifestyle and everything else, doesn't matter to you.

You can't seem to let go of seeking dad's approval.

As adults, we do things because they are the right thing to do. Right for US, regardless of what mum and dad think.
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Barb,
I know what you mean BUT part of me is thinking "can I even be bothered to get involved here?"

I'll get no thanks for it, it'll be a battle and whatever I do will be wrong. Tempted to them all sink or swim and let the golden child (brother) deal with it all and wash my hands of it.
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Problem is Dads idea is that these are places "you get sent away to die". Imagine a workhouse in Oliver Twist. My Dad speaks in hushed tones about how someones family "put them away in a home". Its an uphill struggle indeed.

In the UK, you can get a health POA. Dad refuses to allow it - "no need". What can do? Nothing.

I've spoken to his GP in the past. They cant discuss too much with me obviously but they've pretty much said hes competent, but awkward but theres nothing anyone can do about it.
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You might call his GP and say "I think I've seen some pretty severe cognitive decline in my dad in the 3 weeks that I was away; he's become more needy and anxious than he was before and is making very illogical decisions about getting out and the like. What can be done to help him?"

Don't take "oh your dad is just needy and annoying". Point out that there has been a change in cognition in the last 12 months (there has!!).

He needs a work up; call the doc out on this. Agree that your dad is annoying and demanding, but that what he is demanding has changed.
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You're all right. Another phone call today "I've been ill I had to call the doctor".

Basically, its hot here in the UK at the moment, so he feels run down and hes got hayfever. So he calls the doctor.

They refuse to come out AGAIN. Can't blame them......
Its just not getting through to him...
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Paul, you are in the *awaiting a fall* or other crises to move him to the next stage really. You already know that. I believe there have been hospital visits that were minor. I don't wish any of this on him of course, but it often takes a few falls. Depends on injuries / how strong his bones are. Few cuts & bruises he'll go straight back home but a good #hip or leg will do it - into temporary or permanent care. Or a nasty fall with head strike causing internal bleeding.

My sister's multi falls last year were all minor with bruising. The one years back with a head wound was close, but superficial - was sent home from ER.

She refuses to move, no-one can make her. It's her life & she is happier there. But I stepped out. It's not up to me to enable it.

She will not plan. So I have picked out 3 local places & they will be who I suggest to a Social Worker. It would be whichever (if any) had availability. If not, sent where hospital sends folk & she will have to move again later. I tried my upmost, myself, with family, social worker & other professionals to get a plan. Nope. POA? Nope. Parents going the same way too.

C'est la vie.
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