Always is when I go away for the weekend with my family...
You can guarantee when I come back he's "been ill". EVERY TIME. So I phoned him - first sentence "I've been ill". Like its my fault because I went away!
STILL not taking all his medication that the GP gave him so I offer ZERO sympathy. Basically, wants me to tell him how he can feel better - "Take the meds the GP has given you Dad, if that fails then go an see you're GP but I'm not a doctor."
His words - "I desperately need you to visit the weekend." "I've got no food in the house" (Brother lives literally 5 mins drive from him - I live 35-40 mins. Brother is probably laying low). Anyway, he knows my car is in the garage so I'm struggling for transport and he knows my wife works weekends so may need our other car. So I tell him I can't promise. Anyone would have thought I'd told him I'd murdered the family next door.
Apparently, I'm "letting him down" and "need to arrange something", and "wife needs to understand". Of course the standby offer of home delivery groceries is not good enough - he doesn't want to spend the £30 minimum - they have to be hand delivered by me!
I've tried setting boundaries, I've said no can do, I've tried ignoring, I've tried just not doing. Give him his due he's relentless in his quest to get me to do what he wants!
Yay! Good for you. Congrats! 🍻
You don’t have to prove anything to him. It’s more important to prove to yourself that you don’t need to listen to his ranting or worse, try and reason with him, which includes explaining anything to him. No explanation necessary! He either isn’t capable or won’t agree or respect anything you have to say, so why bother?
You have clearly succeeded in ignoring his shenanigans! You didn’t make the mistake of fueling his foolishness which only gives him a chance to have a never ending debate.
Open minded people are worth debating with because they are willing to listen and learn. People who are narrow minded and stubborn rarely listen to others. Your dad and brother only care about their choices in life.
When I realized that I needed to let go of trying to convince my mother of what I felt was important it was liberating! We won’t convince them (your dad or my mom) of a damn thing!
I know how you feel about your dad’s feelings concerning your brother. My mom did the same with me. She praised my brothers. Well, it cost her in the end. Just like it’s costing your dad. They lost the opportunity to have a harmonious relationship because they left us no choice but to severely limit our relationship with them.
Your brother made really selfish choices in life. You made responsible choices. Good for you. Too bad for him. He had the same opportunity as you and failed. Oh well...that was his decision and now he has to deal with the consequences.
And well done on saying no to the unsafe visit.
He wants you to call the child support people? He really ascribes super powers to you, doesn't he!?
Keep up the good work, kiddo!
Hes worried about brother now because hes still got to pay child support for his kids from other relationships. So can I phone the child support people and explain hes not going to pay because hes not got a job?
Ummm NO WAY.
Thats Dad for you. Bottom priority is kids from past relationship.
As the old saying goes "If you don't want it in your pay docket, keep it in your pocket".
I get that hes lonely but so are a lot of people. Last night I had 10 mins of him arguing that I should be allowed to visit him. I did what you all said, put the phone down, said "hmmm" now and again.
Then I had the "woe is me brother has been laid off from work". Way OTT.
Quite ironic because 3 weeks ago, he was telling me how people who work in the Steel industry and going to be safe because its "important" but I must be worried because they can do without "office workers". Cheers Dad. Umm nope I'm still working, getting paid, and very busy thank you.
(I honestly never understand his stance that Son A is a hard working manual worker, but Son B- me- must be "one of those managers" because he works in an office so its easy).
Turns out brother (whos a welder and I know earns a decent amount due to long hours) decided not to save a penny and spent it all. I didn't laugh too much honestly. I'm going to hell.
I did say Oh hes got plenty of time to drop food in for you now then ;-)
Thanks for your reply. I can tell that you are well aware of his tactics. I don’t blame you for backing off and not calling him or seeing him very often, even if there wasn’t a quarantine in place you wouldn’t need to have a great deal of contact with him.
Why fuel his behavior? Best to ignore it. He won’t change his ways at this late stage in life. So why torture yourself proving a point that he won’t appreciate? It would be a total waste of time and energy. The only thing it would accomplish is to raise your blood pressure and annoy you.
It truly is foolish to expect irrational people to respond with a ‘normal’ reaction. So, great job at keeping your distance from him!
Take care, Paul
Little Red Hen is such a wonderful children’s book. I read it often and my kids loved that book. More importantly, they learned the moral of the story.
Sounds like your kids did too. I am curious about what other books you read to your kids. Please tell me your favorite ones.
My girls are all grown up and still speak fondly of us reading together. They have a beautiful love for books today and are ferocious readers!
Did you see that Dolly Parton was doing a ‘story time’ for young children to motivate them? She’s a wonderful inspiration. I think she started off with ‘The Little Engine That Could’ which is a beautiful story of hope and inspiration for kids. I read that book to my kids tons of times too.
We can’t keep every book. I donated several books to thrift shops but there were a few books that are close to my heart and I kept them. Plus many of the books we read we had checked out at the library.
Anyway, thanks for the memories about The Little Red Hen. Made me smile 😊.
I know it feels tremendously disrespectful and we were trained as children to be their dumping ground, but it is okay to say no more, those days are done.
Retraining you to be consistent is what I would focus on. Certain behaviors are never okay and that means that they get shut down immediately, every single time.
Paul: "Then 2 days later hes back doing the exact same..."
In the past I have referred to this as the "walking on eggshells" syndrome... Someone does (or doesn't) do something, or starts trouble, a bit of a to-do ensues and then the "walking on eggshells" begins... Tiptoe around, be contrite, try not to annoy.... Generally 3 days IS the max (it can be less.) NIP it in the bud before he/they can finish once the "grace" period is over.
Once taken to task and the eggshell period ends, if the topic starts up, interject with Ah, Ah, AH, not that topic. Example: Hi dad, how's it going, what's new? Oh <cough> <cough> - AH AH AH, THAT's not new. Next topic please. Oh, I need.... Ah Ah AHHH, no you don't, next topic please. Oh You must... Ah AH AHHHH, NO I mustn't. You have something new or interesting to talk about? No, okay, I'm rather busy, we'll chat later when you have something new and interesting, Ta Ta.
Interrupt every time he starts one of his repetitious crap (ill, needs XYZ, must visit) Cut him off, and say nope, not going there. If he persists, hang up.
Countrymouse - perhaps they need a little incentive to bolster their "agreement".... Hmmm, "...meal prep/wash up/dry/put away..." Let's see, how would this work? Well, if the meal isn't prepped, then the wash up, dry and put away are eliminated! Okay kids, I have the solution... no more meals. Maybe wanting to eat can spur some compliance. Reward rather than punish - you want to help and contribute, we can eat!!!
My kids (somewhere in the teens) put up a stink when I said it was time to go to the grocery store. I said okay, I'm supposed to keep track of everything we need, go find/put it all in the cart, onto the counter, into the car, bring it all home, put it all away, and then prepare all the meals (or provide the necessities, like the TP we can't get now) and YOU all get to benefit? THIS is the Little Red Hen syndrome... It STOPS here!!! I told them get your butts in the car. Once there, I gave each a list of things to get, which would speed up the process. Never got another complaint. Perhaps internally they complained, but they never said anything again to me and they went to the store/helped shop!
Similar was laundry - my son, at a very young age, wanted to help and did. Daughter told me she had nothing to wear because I didn't do the laundry. I replied that I just did 3 loads and NOTHING of yours was in the pile. You know where the washer is, have at it. If you have questions, I'm willing to answer, but if you want clean clothes, go get them and do them! From then on, she either did her own or we did them together. THIS is the Bugs Bunny line in the sand. Draw a reasonable line that you can stick to and STICK TO IT! I have seen parents (and others) who just keep drawing more lines but never enforce it - that just teaches the other person(s) to keep pushing and you will get what you want. This applies to dad too. In his case, the line is the various topics of contention, those are the ones you don't want to deal with (need stupid stuff, needs you to visit, needs you to buy one item and deliver, needs to disparage the family, you, your job) - he starts to cross these lines, STOP HIM. He continues, you hang up. He gets one warning and you hang up. He may not learn, but who cares? You hang up, dismiss what he said and go do something else more productive.
BUT when I look back, I can see things hes done in the past. Not to me but to others. So it was always there I can see now.
You're right. I'd speak to him more, visit him more if he wasn't like this. He is just not pleasant to be around.
Hes difficult to argue with. Hes clever - he knows when not to push it.
I have called him out once or twice. He knows hes gone too far. I get a REALLY OTT apology then. Annoyingly OTT. "Im so ashamed".
Then 2 days later hes back doing the exact same...
Sweeping has to be done last, surely? No point sweeping the floor before you've wiped the benches and emptied the bin, especially not if your resentful brother is doing those two!
But I congratulate you - after a two hour marathon kitchen clearing session when none of us could stand the mess a second longer, the teenage kids and I solemnly drew up and agreed a meal prep/wash up/dry/put away rota. It lasted precisely three nights.
Clear plates, sweep, stack dishwasher, wash remainder of dishes, wipe benches, empty bin. 6 jobs, 4 people. Daughter worked out very young that sweeping was the least dirty. Son worked out that if he lingered over it long enough the rest would be done by everyone else. All kids are crafty.
"That's not my job!" Ooohh that gets me too. So we renamed from *household jobs* to *life skills*.
Dishwasher unpacking? Definately a life skill - start the younger on cutlery sorting & promote the older to do the rest as he is trusted with the glassware etc. OK I know he will see through that one..
If feeling tough.. dishwasher not your job? Oh that's ok. You can clean the toilet instead.
So, my next suggestion is for you to try posting POSITIVE gains here instead of harping on the negativity. Sure, we all need to sometimes vent and get that crap out, but focus on the GOOD that happens and post about it! If you can change your focus onto the good things that go on and bring those to light, they can help banish (or at least offset) all those negative thoughts and complaints! DON'T be like your dad, only to become older and more crotchety by the day, and then be an old curmudgeon like your dad...
Let's hear SGN from paul (and anyone else who wants to contribute!)
[here's my deal - I have been pretty much in isolation mode for going on 2 years now, due to lack of finances mainly - having to deal with mom and managing her affairs as well as the condo didn't help. I was SO looking forward to when my CDs matured this spring so I could make progress and get out of hermit status. The original plan was to use these funds to pay off the MTG here, but having to buy a newer vehicle put a damper on that plan... So, fine, regroup and make a new plan. Pay off Jeep - done! SGN there - frees up about 450/m AND saves me about 3k in interest! Next - get glass replacement going for sun room. SGN - got the estimate (ouch, was more than I was led to think!) and put deposit on it. Same person indicated he might have solutions for needing decent people to work on this place to GET IT DONE! Mtg can wait! Okay, we have some progress, we has us a new plan, get this crap done asap and maybe find a life when it's done!!! Then... along came a virus, that sat down beside us, and frightened all the workers away...... so my hermit status continues and the work is delayed some more... sigh... AND, still no TP at the store :-( ]
Well, at least I am not sick, my kids, DIL and GS, plus son's MIL are all ok, no signs of virus at mom's place, I still have some tissues, ALL SGN!!!!
From Life of Brian - Always Look on the Bright Side of Life! Beats the alternative.
You can't make him happy, whether you do or do not try...
You can't change his behavior or how he thinks...
You should NOT feel guilt when you can't do these things. They are the true Missions Impossible.
You should NOT feel guilt for not calling every day.
You should NOT feel guilt for not wanting to talk to him or visit.
You ensure he is cared for and has what he needs. You ensure he has enough food, esp before the lock down. You check in with him periodically.
There is nothing else to be done other than to let anything and everything he says float by (not even in one ear and out the other.) Keep any responses VERY generic, bland, non-committal (sure, yeah, ok, whatever, maybe, soon, etc.) Do NOT talk about your job, your family, your needs with him. NOTHING. Yup. UhHuh. Really? Wow! You get the drift?
When we took mom's car keys (YB did ALL the talking/taking), the call the next day came to ME, nastily accusing me of taking her key and demanding it back. Granted, she was early stages of dementia, but not enough for me to take that crap. I told her I didn't touch her key, which WAS the truth. She asked who did. My reply was "You're so smart, you figure it out" and hung up on her. I knew she had another key somewhere, so I asked YB to disable the car. He disconnected the battery. Sure enough, next day was an even nastier call demanding I get down there right now and fix whatever I did to it!!! I could and did honestly say I didn't touch her car. She backed off some and wanted to know what was wrong with it. So, clearly she had looked for and found that key! I did have to fib at that point and say I'm not a mechanic, I don't know what's wrong with it.
Did I feel any guilt? Nope. It was my suggestion that we need to take the car away, but to be so nasty (she could be like that before dementia and had been, enough that I refused to call or visit), I don't really care how frail, ill or demented someone is, there is no call to do all that to someone and WE have to strengthen our backbone and not accept being brow-beaten.
For too long he's gotten away with this and now he and you are both "trained". As noted above, you likely won't 'un-train' him, but you CAN un-train yourself. Cherish each time you succeed and don't give up or get despondent for those times you don't succeed. Just resolve to work harder the next time!
Look at it from a different perspective: If he weren't your father, would you take any of this crap? Would you continue to expose yourself to the negativity and brow-beating/guilt trips? Answer is 100% NO. Just being your father doesn't mean you have to take any of this crap. You do what YOU want to do and what YOU feel is necessary. Some people, as NeedHelpWithMom said, have/had great parents and a great relationship with them. They enjoy calls and visits and there is no begging pleading sorry-sad-sacks looking for sympathy. Then there's us.
Step by little step, work on tuning him out when you do call or visit later after all this dies down (keep that timer handy to limit the call - your phone has a time alarm, use it for both phone calls and visits! Oh sorry dad, it's time to wash the cat, talk to you later!) He needs daily visits, offer to hire him a courtesan (would a daily visit = the cost in time, stress and gas for you to visit?? If so, you pay!)
If you need to let off steam, do it here. Sure, it gets tiresome, but you can drive people away if you do it to them (esp those who haven't been there, done that) - your wife is an example. You've made some progress, keep working on it. Dad is a non-topic with the wife (or kids!) The more you can tune him out the better. DON'T let his whinging/whining get into your head. You KNOW it is coming, so don't anticipate, prepare with something to keep your mind on other than him while he blathers on (if you have ear plugs, put on some music you REALLY like and listen to that instead!) Where there's a will....
I have a friend that has trouble with her son occasionally. She is always telling me that he is her greatest joy and her biggest headache!
Her son is very sweet but can be extremely stubborn when he wants to be. Sometimes it takes them awhile before they figure things out. They usually think parents are dumb until they have kids of their own!
Calmly say no, maybe it isn't your job*, but we are in a difficult time and we all need to chip in to get through this together. Being mom, cleaning and cooking for everyone, while helping/nursing mom are not my jobs either, but it all needs to be done, even while I am working to keep us all in our home, fed and safe. A few extra tasks for you each day, while you are not going to school isn't that much to ask of you.
*query - do the kids have "chores" they are expected to do, from day 1? ALL kids should have these, even if they do a sh**ty job when younger and you have to "tidy up" afterwards. Real life is going to involve "jobs" or "tasks" that are not one's job, but still need to be done. One of the worst phrases I have ever heard is "that's not my job." If/when I was asked about something I didn't know squat about, I NEVER said it wasn't my job. I would just say I don't have an answer for that, BUT I will go find someone who can give us that answer and get back to you! Had a LOT of happy customers/clients, whether in retail or business positions.
Schools here are in full swing, online of course. My daughter is doing all of her university classes and exams online. She will receive her diploma in the mail instead of a cap and gown ceremony. Sad, but everyone must stay safe.
Sounds like you have your hands full. Parents are always busy! I raised two kids too. Mine are out of the house now but how well I remember!
Glad your wife is improving. Surgery is tough. My husband and I have both been through several surgeries too. It takes time to recover but it is worth it in the end.
I totally get what you are saying about being way past the guilt. Just as I said earlier, that I moved past the guilt and into apathy too.
The only people who will truly understand that are those who have walked in our shoes. I surely didn’t understand anything about caregiving before I did it. It’s impossible to know how it is until we have experienced it.
Everyone has their own reaction to their own set of circumstances. Some people are fortunate to have lovely parents. I find people that were pleasant when they were young continue to be in their senior years. People who had issues in their youth usually stay the same in their senior years.
I would continue doing things as you are, taking care of what has to be taken care of. The rest can wait. Like Barb said before, when you do call, if you need to put the phone on the counter, do so.
No need to make any comments on his behavior. Don’t feed him any ammunition to be contrary about because you know that he would.
Take care, Paul.
You say you don't care, but I am going to contradict you, you care a tremendous amount or he couldn't get to you the way he does. It is okay that you love him and want to see him doing well, content and maybe even happy. Unfortunately none of those are within your power. It is all up to him.
I think that he has made a habit of being an arse with you. My parents do similar things with me, because it works in their head, and I think sometimes they do it just to prove to themselves that they are still the parent. I don't think that they realize that they are injuring their own cause, I don't talk to them if they are being unreasonably difficult, they are always difficult, just like your dad.
One thing that I thought might be helpful for you, it has been for me, when dad starts on the woe is me, so ill, you must jump to help me paul, state in an upbeat voice and attitude "oh dad that is great, everything is same ole same ole for you, that is good to know. "
My mom literally has nothing to say when I say that to her. I think that she gets that all she ever does is try to make me feel guilty and bad about her condition when I say that. I am telling her that I know how awful she is doing, she always is. What can you say when someone is saying it's good that you're still dying, no change there. Because that is what they always do. I hope that makes sense.
I know that you think that your dad has all of his mental faculties, but I think that he probably has some age related brain issues that do create some of the repetitive behaviors. Just something to consider when dealing with him, keep an eye open to executive function changes, this will help you know when you can say enough or just let it go.
Just curious if you have ever called him on his inappropriate actions or words? Like telling him that it is asinine to tell you that he comes before your own children and wife. Like telling him that you will not talk to him for a while if he says garbage about your family again and then not talking for a while if he goes there? I know that it is hard to call a parent out and lay down consequences, but sometimes we must be brutally honest and blunt to ensure that they understand that they are headed for a total disconnect if they don't stop. Then it is truly their choice and you can implement the consequences without feeling bad or guilty or anything else.
On the teenager front, my dear son, you either play with your sister without acting like a brat or the video game gets taken away completely. Your choice my dear boy, share or go without.
Best of luck. Stay safe and well.
your family sounds about normal.
Reminded me of this email I received that might give you a smile.
* Half of us are going to come out of this quarantine as amazing cooks.
The other half will come out with a drinking problem
* I used to spin that toilet paper like I was on Wheel of Fortune. Now I turn it like I'm cracking a safe.
* I need to practice social-distancing from the refrigerator
* Still haven't decided where to go for Easter -----
The Living Room or The Bedroom
* PSA: every few days try your jeans on just to make sure they fit.
Pajamas will have you believe all is well in the kingdom.
* Homeschooling is going well. 2 students suspended for fighting and 1 teacher
fired for drinking on the job.
* I don't think anyone expected that when we changed the clocks
we'd go from Standard Time to the Twilight Zone
* This morning I saw a neighbor talking to her cat. It was obvious she thought her cat understood her. I came into my house, told my dog..... we laughed a lot.
* So, after this quarantine.....will the producers of My 600 Pound Life just find me or do I find them?
* Quarantine Day 5: Went to this restaurant called THE KITCHEN. You have to
gather all the ingredients and make your own meal. I have no clue how this place is still in business.
* My body has absorbed so much soap and disinfectant lately that when I pee it
cleans the toilet.
* Day 5 of Homeschooling: One of these little monsters called in a bomb threat.
* I'm so excited --- it's time to take out the garbage. What should I wear?
* I hope the weather is good tomorrow for my trip to Puerto Backyarda. I'm getting
tired of Los Livingroom.
* Classified Ad: Single man with toilet paper seeks woman with hand sanitizer for good clean fun.
* Day 6 of Homeschooling: My child just said "I hope I don't have the same teacher next year".... I'm offended.
* Better 6 feet apart than 6 feet under
I asked him to empty the dishwasher earlier. No why should I? Its not my job.
Great.... Yesterday I was online for work at 830am, took an hour for lunch, went to supermarket to get food, fed wife and daughter. Finished work at 5. Cooked food for everyone....
Sat down after it all at about 8pm. Sons input to the family during that time = 30 mins playing with his sister. And its "not his job"?
He plans to go back next year to do what are called A levels. (basically its two years and the results of these decide if you get to go to university).
So school have given up now. Trying to get him to start on something ready for next year. No chance.
Our 6 year old - not an awful lot from the school either. Shes really bored.
Are you kids' schools doing remote lessons at all?
My wife is great but she put up with, for years, more than she should ever have to put up with him. We don't talk about him much because she wants nothing to do with him and it causes us to argue....
I think I'm way past guilt. I'm definitely in apathy. I dont care any more. BUT he still just annoys me so much.....
Its not a great time for a lot of people I know, but I just can't deal with him at the moment.
Yesterday, for example, I'm wfh all day. I'm lucky that, as an independent consultant, I'm still doing this - and getting paid. LOTS of people in my position have been told not to come in for 3 months (and not get paid).
My "manager" at the client is not the nicest. I've got to be online all day - if he thinks I'm skiving off it might be the end of WFH.
Of course, my 6 year old is acting like a psychotic wild animal. My wife can hardly walk after her op. My day is spent running back and fore my office, making coffee for me wife, feeding youngest, feeding wife, then lunchtime taking daugher out for a walk. In between, wife has got to enterain her and shes moaning about me escaping into my office. (I know she doesnt mean it but its hard to look after her when you can't walk).
Teenager with Aspergers is mostly OK. But any attempts to requestt some small assistance like "play with your sister for an hour on the nintendo" have caused a few meltdowns....
You can imagine then when I speak to Dad and hes telling me how ill he is, how depressed he is, how I've GOT TO visit him this weekend.......
They are the ones who need the therapy but of course would never agree to it! Therapy wasn’t common in their era. Not only that, it was looked down on.