The Caregiver & Dysfunctional Families: How are you doing?

I will not leave the situation without my mother having someone to help her. If my sister wants to continue to deal with being on the DPOA so be it. I will not pursue a conservatorship because I honestly do not have the money and refuse to go into debt over this. I left my sister a message and hopefully we can talk on Saturday. As I said, if my mother really trusted us from the beginning she would not have had the DPOA written so we can't help her until she is incompetent. Her refusal to be evaluated only complicates the situation. She needs someone to handle her finances right now. My sister wants to get a conservatorship but I do not. I am thinking the cost is going to be upwards of $5,000.00 with paying to file in the court, hourly attorney fees, paying for doc evaluations, a social worker, and many other fees that will be added on. Plus it will cost more if we declare it an emergency so it is done faster than the standard 6-9 months it would normally take. At this point I do not think we would win anyway and from what I read about the process, my mother has the right to decide who the conservator is...and it would not be me or my sister because she does not trust us, so the court would have to assign someone. I am only second on the DPOA which allows me to act in my mothers best interest if my sister for whatever reason is unable to do so. My request to be removed will not leave her with no one unless my sister decides to do the same. That is up to her, but like I told her, we are fighting a losing battle no matter what we do because of how the DPOA was written. My mother's doc has been willing to talk with us about her health issues only because it is in my mother's best interest and we have no documentation that allows him to legally talk with us. We contacted her attorney back in February because of the kitchen fire she started by heating up vicks vapor rub in a pan, and he told my sister he cannot discuss it with her. I have composed a letter to her attorney but will not send it until I have talked with my sister. Thank you Cattails and Bookworm I hear what you are saying and I appreciate it. (((hugs))) to you both!!

FYI, I heard it via HLN, that several states now make it the children's responsible for their aged parents' medical costs. They showed the map of the US and I would say there was about 8 states who are doing this. Another state just recently joined them (forgot which state). So, it's like a domino effect. Pretty soon, all the states would adopt that policy. So, just because we're no longer our parents' DPOA, etc...does not mean we're not going to be held responsible for their medical costs. So you all may want to check if Your state is one of those who already has that policy.

(((((((((((((sharyn))))))))))) you are living the situaiton that I dread, I have DPOA, but as mother is competent I don't exercise it. Her lawyer told us that while legally I could do some of her finances for her now, the banks only want to deal with one person, so not to start until mother is ready to give it all over - or, I suppose, when it becomes apparent she cannot handle her finances. She has been paranoid about others, and her finances - e.g. my daughter who is a CA and bound by their code of ethics, but not me so far, though it would not surprise me if it happens should she deteriorate to the point of needing someone to handle her finances. My sister is my backup as you are for your sister, so if I decline to act as POA, she gets to handle mother's finances. I don't trust her, frankly, not to take advantage of mother, based on past experiences, but have pretty well come to the point where if it gets too stressful for me, I will back out and just watch everything carefully. I don't know about guardianship etc here is Canada, and it may be something I should look into.
You are in a very difficult situation. Trying to save someone from themselves is well nigh impossible. At least so far your mother is not wasting money, or being scammed by anyone, as has happen to some.. It sounds like confusion is the main issue along with the accusations. I think to other posts from people whose parents refuse help for physical issues, and sometimes the only recourse is to wait until something happens that shows them they must make some changes. I know that is scary, but there do not seem to be a lot of alternatives. I totally understand and agree that you should not go into a lot of expense over this. Would any agency on aging, or social services have and ideas how to handle the situation? I am sorry that her doc is straddling the fence re her driving. Certainly she should not be driving.
What a mess. Too many cracks in the system for her to fall through.
As your sister is POA, you are would not be leaving your mum high and dry. It seems to me you have researched the options and thought them through well. If contacting APS would get a guradian appointed. that would accomplish some of your goals.
Hope your talk with your sister goes well, and you come up with some solutions.
(((((((((((((((((((((((hugs))))))))))))))))))

bw - my thoughts and prayers are with you and you take on even more. I don't know how you do it. Do take care of you (((((((((((((hugs))))))))))))

Sharyn, I'm sure u know these paranoid ideations n belief famil r stealing is part of her alz. Have u done a consult w alz Assoc? If not, I think they may be helpful. I'm sure this must be tiring, but like cat, I think give it some to gel before u make a final decision. She will get worse off, the accusations may stop, she WILL need more help from u n sis (or someone) for EVERY Decision to come. What about hiring someone qualified to handle her $$ for u / her? Would that decrease stress for now? I kno these decisions r tough. I see her guaranteed decline as a reason to retain the long term control of what happens to her. She may get herself in some real messes. This is just my 2cents-I don't mean to impose my thought process, just speaking from my experiences w FIL, mom n crazy stepmom. I know u have to figure out what is right for you and family. prayers coming ur way to find YOUR right answer. kimbee

Very difficult creating healthy boundaries. Exhausted.

makes sense, Kim - the alz association may have some resources. It is so much more difficult when you have a personality disorder in the mix. I recall jeannegibbs quoting a psychologist who advises those who have been abused by a family member with a personality disorder to help at arms length, but have others to do the hands on part which requires direct contact. I have posted on jeanne`s wall asking for more specific information.
Sharyn, I am confident that you will figure out what is best for you and your family, too. I guess I am just trying to say, in both posts, that I understand, and that I support you whatever you decide. ((((((((((((((((hugs)))))))))))))

Thank you all so much for the support. Right now I am so confused, stressed and exhausted from all the legal road blocks. My mother is so frugal the only way she would agree to someone (a licensed person she would pay) is if it was legally forced on her. Yes, he doc is playing both sides of the fence which I just don't understand. I truly believe that my mother thinks she is going to live forever. Mother has that lady who is helping with her checkbook, she seems to be honest. She told my sis that our mother should not be handling her finances anymore, my mother calls her 4-5 times a day. How long is she going to handle that before she can't deal with it anymore? I really appreciate the input by everyone and any other information that people on here can think of, maybe in a few days I will calm down to be able to think things through more logically. ((((hugs)))) to everyone, the support is comforting and invaluable to me♥♥♥

(((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((sharyn))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))) - thank goodness your mother has that lady who is helping with the checkbook, and she is honest. prayers going your way.

welcome joan53 - creating boundaries can be very tiring. Usually the person for whom you have to create the boundaries, pushes them, and keeping your postion isn't easy. I found I have had to emotionally detach and distance, to keep my mental and physical health, and to keep the boundaries in place, otherwise it was too draining. Do let us know more about your situation, your mother's health - both mental and physical, and your own health. Coming here has helped me a lot. (((((((((((((((((((((hugs)))))))))))))))))))) - hope you post again -

Joan, my moms personality d/o didn't go away, we still have it! My skills have grown n her ability to impose is slightly lowered. Prior to taking care of her, I could not be around her for 7 days w/o feeling crazy thru n thru. We've had some moments, especially early on. I had to lay down the law more than a few times n let her know if she couldnt get on board we'd find a "facility" where she could get on board or not. Remember when I mentioned re-parenting? It's the person w PD who needs to be reparented ( well often the child who endured the torment also
needs that from someone else to meet some of the unmet needs) but as therapists we had to "re-teach" / "reparent" so the person w PD could learn new
adaptive ways to get needs met n to interact w others in appropriate ways. I have been doing this w mom since she got here! Starting to see some improvement!
Also DH gets the triangulation concept n has firm boundaries. I warned him some
of the tactics he'd likely see, so he's super united w me when stuff comes up-really a blessing! My sis jokes she's glad we got to be parents together, but sad it's to mom. When we were still dating n had a little bump in the road, she tried to get my girlfriend to arrange a date for them- not to help fix our spat either! My friend was shocked to death as my mom comes off as so sweet, innocent n angelic to others. I'm thankful God got me to the Point where I can handle her. Frankly I WAS terrified at the thought that it could ruin my life, n then I'd have to place her n be so mad I wouldn't be able to deal w her at all. Bottom line- I totally get why it can't be done in many cases...neither of my sibs could handle it. I probably couldn't if not for the extra training n learning curve my career entailed! I try to never make a big decision when I'm upset, if I can remove myself for a while, I find things work out better for me. I also try to use humor to deflect some of the crazy stuff! My mom wasn't getting her way one day, n she announced she was leaving, to go back to her prior home (3000 mi away). I said oh, ok, I think I have a bandanna n pole around here we can pack up for you, huc Finn. Will that do? She couldn't help but laugh, even tho just a min prior she was so mad, I thought her head might blow off. I think she's figured out I'm not gonna play her game...I thank God for the strength to stand firm and not let her push my buttons!

I am one of four siblings. My sister is the main caregiver unfortunately because she is retired and lives in the same town as my folks. I am the next closet sibling only 13 miles away. The other two a girl and a boy live 4 hours away. My mom, 88, has the start of Alzheimer's her doctor said and my dad, who will turn 90 soon is the caregiver. Because my two siblings who live farther away don't want them to move into an Assisted Living and have talked against it to them. My brother actually told my folks if we bring up again to them to call him and let him know and he'll deal with it. He's the youngest of all of us. My sister the caregiver is the oldest, the other sister is next in line then me and last my brother. Our decease brother was born before the one living at the age of 14 in a hunting accident with my younger brother. Our two siblings who live farther away are in denial. My sister asked my dad who has Macular Degeneration to drive 4 1/2 hours up to the lake to stay with them in their trailer for a week ~ which they did. Dad is under restrictions for night driving but he said when he drives it sometimes looks like cars are coming into his lane!! OMG They went up to my brothers and had a small fender bender in around about because my dad gets confused in them. They are both failing and the doctor said my dad would really benefit from living in the AL but mom doesn't want to go (go figure) she sleeps most of the time and doesn't like to go out. They don't want to leave their home because their siblings who leave far away won't have a place to stay when they come down to visit once a year! We washed our hands of it and told their caseworker to call our sibling up north when their is a problem and I gave her their cell phone number. I gave the siblings and told them when they want to find out how mom & dad are really doing contact her for an objective opinion or if they wanted to set up a meeting with us to do so. Never heard word. My brother said that we would kill them moving them and will be happy when they are gone!! That's when we said we were done. All we asked mom & dad to do was look at some and maybe put their name on a list but our siblings made it sound like we were selling their $15,000 home and all their furnishings for God sakes!!! Very frustrated. :(

((((((((((((kim)))))))))) I stand in awe of you - and agree if it had not been for the training you had in your career, likely you could not cope as well as you do. I understand that you were afraid it would ruin your life. That you are your husband and united is essential. Charming (NOT!) how our mum's interfere in our love lives. I have a tale or two there as well. Absolutely right not to make a big decision when you are upset. Actually, it is physiologically sound. Stress hormones affect the part of the brain with the highest functions, so a person is less well able to use their highest thinking skills when they are upset. You have been able to set boundaries, and maintain them, which is essential, and also to use humor. Bravo!!!! I have nothing but admiration for what you have achieved and are doing. I don't think I could do it.

((((((((((((((SunnyD))))))))))))) - horrible situation. I am sorry. Sounds like lots of denial there, and certainly unfounded accusations. I think it was wise to ask your parents to out their names down for AL. so very frustrating!

Bookworm~I looked on the web regarding children having to pay their aging parents medical bills. What I found is a law called States With Filial Responsibility Laws. I don't know if that is what you are talking about. It says that 29 states have this law and it has been in effect since 2006. It requires adult children to pay for NH expenses if the aging parent run out of money. It goes on to say that it has not been enforced because of concern of a back lash of law suits against NH;s for inadequate care of their parent.

Sharyn: I looked it up on line too. These laws have been on the books in many states for a very long time. It's just that the new Medicaid laws, passed in 2006 have brought the old laws more into play. Scary stuff. I think it going to get even more scary.

SunnyD: I so appreciate your frustration with your brother and his antics. Your sister too. Nevertheless, it seems a shame that the family closest to your parents; those that truly understand the real issues are washing their hands of the parents. Maybe you could tell your parents that you will provide accommodations for their sibs that come once a year. Maybe you are doing the right thing. I'm not sure, but eventually your parents will suffer an injury that will get the ball moving. I'm sorry you are going through this. Your sibs sound so unreasonable. My heart goes out to you.

Book: I thought your post about states in the US trying to put the cost of parents medical care on the back of their children could not be true. I read up on it and yowser, another train heading our way. This does not apply to parents on medicaid. Glad my dad has managed that hurdle.

Hey everyone, try to stay positive. Love you all, Cattails

That doc that would not sign the paper so she could not drive sounds like my Mom's doche even told her it was great she was driving with being over 90-my son said we should tell him to ride in her car while she was driving-I think he is close to her age-here in NY at my medicial group doc's have to retire at 65. She had to stop driving because her grandsons had an accident in her car while using it-that was one way to keep her from driving. Also most people think she is so sweet-they do not see her explosive anger like I and my sister witness often-she can be like a time bomb.

The way I look at it is that by not revoking my mother license, it is causing her undue stress with having to study for the test and then only to fail. I guess the other side of the coin is he is giving her the chance to prove she can do it. I am what you call a wishy washy person because I can see both sides. However, I do feel more strongly about it causing unnecessary stress for my mother.

With all the emotional drain on me, I slept 12 hours straight, didn't wake up till noon today. I am feeling more logical about the situation. My sis and I talked about the situation for quite a long time today. I told her that since she feels the lady who is helping mother with her checking account seems to be honest, I think it is best to let it ride as it is. The woman told me sister she has other people she is helping and that she has a limit of what she will do for them. She was glad my sister called her because she didn't want to ask my mother for our phone numbers without raising red flags. She also told sis she knows we are not trying to steal mother's money and are not neglecting her in anyway. She will contact my sister if she feels things have gone beyond what she is willing to do or if she feels my mother has declined further. I asked my sis to call her to get her address so we can send her occasionally a bouquet of flowers or something since she cannot accept any payment as an AARP volunteer. I am feeling better about all it with the prayers and good wishes from everyone here on AC. This wonderful lady told my sis that she is fortunate because her husband (deceased) left her well cared for and she volunteers her time to help elderly people and then takes a cruise once a year.

I know that the guidelines for what the law considers incompetency is much more beyond where my mother is currently at and that what my sis and I are trying to accomplish is considered acting too soon. However , it is beyond my understanding of allowing a person continue on when they clearly need help. Her insurance provider told us we have to wait until something happens, she hurts herself from a fall or something else. I find it hard to believe that while we are trying to prolong her life by being proactive, we hit legal road blocks that say we are violating her rights, while these laws can actually be accelerating her demise. It is with great sadness that I write these words, but I can only hope the Alzheimer's progresses to the point of where my mother will no longer accuse us of stealing from her so we can follow what she and my daddy wanted with their living trust.

As far as the DMV written test goes, my mother will probably have to go to a DMV office out of town. Apparently only certain cities have the authority to have re-examinations done. This includes the driving test as well. Can you imagine someone who has Alzheimer's having to go to another city for the written test and a driving test??? It is unnecessary stress for an Alzheimer's patient to have to go through. I am not saying she should be allowed to drive, but having her go to a city with one way streets and she knows that Stockton, Modesto and Sacramento all have one way streets, my heart goes out to her with this stress she must be carrying, but because of the PD she will never verbalize that to us so we could help her through it.

You all have been wonderful with the support and I can only say how blessed I am to have found this site and everyone t provide support, prayer, positive thoughts and just your words have helped me so much. I thank you all from the bottom of my heart and hoping everyone has a wonderful weekend and week ahead♥♥♥!!!

We were so blessed Mother gave up driving at 84 and sold her car. My sisters and I were dreading the day we had to have the no driving discussion. Mom realized she would have to take a vision test and knew she could not pass it. Thank god for small favors.

Oops, I certainly meant to capitalize the "G" in God!!

I know what you mean. Dad was a scary driver. I was a passenger one time. He straddled the lane several times! I was so glad when his license expired. He had this misconception that he would have to take the test again and he wouldn't pass it. Plus, he GAVE away the car to a stranger to fix it and the guy never brought it back.

((((((((((sharyn)))))))))))) I am so glad you are feeling better about this. It is sad that "something has to happen" before you can get more help for your mother, but I have seen that on a number of threads here. It does seem wrong. So good that you have made a contact with the AARP volunteer, and what a wonderful service she offers. Also great that she will contact you/yoursis when she sees that your mum needs more help. You are still walking a narrow path - one step at a time. The main thing is that your mum gets the care she needs, no matter who gives it. It is too bad her physician wouldn't draw the line with her driving and save her the stress, but still better that she fail the test rather than continue to drive and have an accident, or get lost. Thankfully mother gave up driving after she moved out west. She was about 85, and was fine driving where she had lived for many years, but in a new city she had trouble. I bought her car (35000 km driven by a little old lady) not that I needed a new car, but it was easier for her,.and one of the kids got mine.
You are a very loving daughter, and I know you will look out for your mum's best interests.
(((((((((((((((((((((((((hugs))))))))))))))
Joan

Here for everyone is the post I got back from jeannegibbs. I have ordered the book. Mainly, the book is about ambiguous loss, which is having a spouse, for example there but not there, due to dementia. I understand that concept, as mother, due to her BPD was there, and not there in many senses.

"I highly recommend Pauline Boss's book "Loving Someone Who Has Dementia." Much of the book is focussed on the unique situation of having a loved one both "there" and "not there" that dementia presents. But some of her advice applies to any caregiver, and I think this especially true when she acknowledges that persons trying to care for someone who was neglectful or abusive to them are in a different situation than those caring for loved ones where there was and is a healthy bond. If you get the book, this topic starts on page 163."

Have a great day everyone.

Does any body know in the state of Florida if there is a definitive answer of if you have been declared incompetent but not incapicitated..........we would like to move Dad into a decent and cleaner nursing home closer to us or even to the veterans home - Mom had my husbands dpoa revocated on Feb 15 and also eliminated Dad's wishes to have my husband as executor to will by having an attny draw up the lenghtiest health surrogate form i have ever seen.........but..........Dad had dui at age 85 after his brain surgery - he was declared my a Hernando county prosecutors office after a two hour exam as incompetant.......Feb 2 we received letter from state attny saying they were not moving forward with charges as they did not deem Dad to regain competancy. Feb 15, mom takes Dad to attny and has him sign papers which I know he did not know he was signing (diagnosis of senile dementia with severe frontal and side brain damage) - attny did not order a competancy exam before he had Dad sign..........however..........almost like a lightbulb went off 10 days later he had a mini mental done on Dad by my sisters dui counselor (which is irrelevant as mini mental is used to determine dementia) - if I report this attny to Florida bar, is it possible that all the stuff he did on Feb 15th would be considered null and void??? Dad at time was residing in one floor up from the complete memory care unit , Mom residing at time in a completetly different county (which I would have thought would have had the attny questioning that as well)............thanks............

U565425~When my father was certified as legally incapacitated my mother had taken him to a neurologist. I went with her and as I recall the dr. asked my dad many questions such as, his dob, ss#, what year it was, who was president of the U.S., what month and day of the week it was. My father could not answer any of those questions. At this point my dad very rarely called me by my name, he did not know who my brother was when brother came over to the house. After getting the certification, my mother had to go to court for a judge to review the dr. certification. A social worker came to the house and talked with my father. With all this information the judge agreed he was incompetent and all decision where given to my mother both medical and financial. Mom's attorney then advised her to put all accounts in her name only, the house was put in a living trust so that state could not take that away from her to pay for dad's care in a nursing home. Mom needed money to continue to pay bills, and for her own needs that is why it was done this way other wise after dad's passing the state would have taken most of it.

I suggest you seek a consultation with an elder law attorney to ask the questions you are seeking answers to. My best guess is that if you report this attorney, an investigation will take place which will probably be lengthy. While you are talking with the elder law attorney inquire about getting a guardianship for your father. I do not know what Fl. law states in regards to who can and cannot decide incapacity, or whether you need to go to court for a judge to make the final decision. What I wrote in the first paragraph applies to Ca. law. Most attorney's will not charge for the first consultation. If you decide to report the attorney, you might want to pursue the guardianship at the same time. Good luck to you and I hope you get the answers you are seeking, remember to document everything that has happened with copies of investigations, etc.

Joan~It certainly is a narrow path. My fear is she will fall in her backyard and not be found for 24 hours. My husband's grandmother also had Alzheimer's living alone. Every Sunday she had dinner with my in-laws. This particular Sunday after my MIL took her home, she fell in her bedroom and couldn't get up. My MIL called my husband (Mike) the following morning because MIL couldn't reach her mother by phone. Mike went over to her house (he knew how to break in her house), he found her on the floor. Prior to the fall, she was still taking basic care of herself. After the fall she was placed in a nursing home because she no longer could walk, talk, or care for herself even though she was not physically hurt in the fall. I am sure she fell because Alzheimer's had progressed and at that moment she couldn't remember how to stand or walk, but still very scary.

This book sounds great and I will order a copy for myself and my sister/brother! My sis and I will still be checking on mom through visits and phone calls so we know about her safety at home. I will be taking her grocery shopping, to appts. once her license has been revoked. Maybe by driving her around for her needs, she will start to trust us more...maybe!! Thank you for sharing the info on the book, it sounds like something we can all read to gain understanding. Thank you for the hugs, it is great knowing I have such a loving support group here on AC (((((HUGS)))))!!

U565425 -certainky hope you get some ideas. I know nothing abouty lawa in the US, but what sharyn says about consultring an elder law attny makes sense to me. I wonder, as you do, if it was legal for your mum to revoke your dad's wishes for who was DPOA. etc. as you dad was not competent. I suspect only an attny specialized in elder legal matters can gie you a solid response, unless anyone here has eperience in Fla with the same or a very simiular situation. I am glad that you have proigressed at least to being able to visit your dad. What a very frustrating situation! I know you want what us best for your dad, and have to work against your mum in so many things.
Do be sure to look after you in the middle of all of this. The stress on you must be great. Hope that venting here helps. You may not get the specific info you are looking for, but you certanly can get support.
((((((((((((((((hugs))))))))))) Joan

sharyn - I wrote a long one to you and just lost it. The gist of it was that we cannot see into the future, nor provide for every contingency. I think it would help you if you could detach/distance yourself a little emotionally, from worrying about your mum. My mum did not trust me either at one point, and wrote me out of her will. After, when she was more receptive, I told her kindly, but firmly that I was not interested in managing her finances as long as she was capable, or in putting her into a nursing home,and she came around. We have been OK since. That could change I know and may, but I am living in today. I have found it doesn't pay to look too far ahead into what could go wrong, but to plan sensibly for the future, and live this whole thing one day at a time. You and your sis are in daily contact with your mum. That is responsible. I don't think you can do much more. She still has a right to live her life, even though her abilities are compromised. There is a good article on this site and trying to fix everything -by Cindy Laverty, I think. I could recognize myself in the past. You may find it helpful.
Have you been able to find out if calling in APS would jeopardize the carrying out of the LivingTrust as your mum and dad set it up?
((((((((((((((((((hugs)))))))))))))))))))) Look after you -Joan

here is the article - think it is good for many of us "The “Fix It” Mentality and How it Leads to Caregiver Burnout" by Cindy Laverty https://www.agingcare.com/articles/caregiver-fix-it-mentality-152629.htm
BTDT, got the t shirts, not going back! :)

Thanks Sharyn and Joan.........I guess there is a wierd thing in florida having to do with incompetency and incapacity but what I am gathering is that due to the fact he was deemed incompetent in the dui case (which is not a complex thing), coupled with his senile dementia diagnosis, the attorney (if he had ethics) would have automatically ordered a test before you go revoking a durable power of attorney as that stays in effect regardless if you become incompetent or not...........someone from the Avvo law forum sent me a link to Gulfcoast attornies who apparently will be able to answer my questions free of charge........since any money we did have is going fast for my legal defense thanks to Mom (thanks Joan) - I am trying to take care of myself but not doing too well..........seems like with everything going on, don't feel like eating, no appetite, can't sleep well, over all am just kind of going thru motions and not knowing what is around the corner...........Dad pretty lucid today and it is amazing that in his lucid moments, he still comes up with the same things he was saying before all this, that all my mother wants to do is argue........he of course in his dementia is remembering things that did happen but just not recently - apparently from what he was saying to us today is that he asked her for some of the pills I used to give him to help his stomach and she argued with him that no such thing ever happened...........well it did, just quite awhile ago.........I do not understand why she is so uneducated that she does not know to just kind of go along with someone who has dementia..........gracious, they already feel out of sorts without telling them stuff that makes them feel worse...........she did supposedly get a 2 yr college degree.......then again, I cringed when I went into his room to see a "florida gators" throw there.........through this whole disaster, anything mom and sis have brought to him have nothing to do with what Dad likes.......sis's husband loves the Fl gators..........Dad could care less.........a New England Patriots would have been appropriate as he grew up in NH............I do not understand either one of their reasonings..........it is like maybe they are getting themselves stuff to keep after he passes???