Can I be accused of elderly abuse if I'm not a caregiver?

Heather, I would help you better understand how verbal abuse can be the worst abuse by calling you some choice name, just so you could see how it feels. However, I cannot do that since I would be reported because IT IS ABUSE. Except for the fact that I would not do that anyway because I try harder not to abuse or hurt someone. But just to make a point. If you feel that way maybe you are hurting more people than you think and you don't realize it.

Pumpkin93, love it! My life...4 years ago as I picked up my 72 year old drunk mother off of the floor I shouted at her that her behavior was putting us all at risk. She started drinking every day at 7 am, drove out for more wine, etc. She did not live with me (and not now either). I was concerned that if she ever killed someone, I might get the blame for not stopping her from driving, but I did all that I could except to call the police and suggest they have a patrol car sitting at the end of her street every day. Her excuse for all bad behavior is that "I don't know what it's like to get old". That is her excuse to verbally abuse both family and strangers. And I am stuck with this horrid woman, possibly for another decade or two. Can I just hop in my car and drive away????

My reply about "stupid" was only me talking about my own situation.

Naenae, sounds like you have a wonderful gma who raised you well. I can hear the love you have in your words here 😘Hugs

Naenae22 - thank you for giving us an update.
I'm very glad you have people in your life that can guide you well. Your grandmother is great in some ways, but it's good to recognize that she has her limitations as well. I'm glad your boyfriend's family is so supportive.
We can't choose our bio-family. But we can choose our extended family or chosen family. That makes such a big difference in life.
Take care. We all wish you well in your life's journey.

Tell everybody to drop dead

Pumpkin...that's my case with my dad...has always made STUPID choices!!
Really who's the stupid one ?
ME!! for not walking away and staying away a long long long time ago

Interesting replies here. Although this incident doesn't rise to the level of jail time, apparently the social services people can be tyrannical despots at times. I read about a woman who had her kids taken away for months after a neighbor reported her for child abuse/neglect. Too long of a story to go into here, but it was horrible what they did to this poor family and they were completely innocent. The lesson is to always be on guard in public and watch what you do and say. Somebody is always watching and all too quick to judge.

I'm sorry I can't imagine how calling someone stupid constitutes abuse. There are legitimate abusers out there. A young adult losing their composure seems to be a stretch. Had she stood there berating gma & gma was cowering in fear (presumably because there was a history of abuse) that might ring my bell. Where do you draw the line with "name calling"? "Stop being such a baby!" Is that abusive? "You're such a worry wart." Is that abusive? "You are so d@mn stubborn." Is that abuse? IDK...

Pumpkin do you think people get more like themselves as they age? Did your father always behave in an irresponsible way?
When you know someone like that the message is do not get involved. Yes you can walk away as long as you never walked in. The evidence is there long before they need care.

I'm curious, Pumpkin - so what's your answer? Prison? Naughty step? Forcible admission to nursing home at age 75?

It is always true that you have choices. Unfortunately, for some people, at some times, none of the choices available is very attractive.

While I agree that there are good ways and bad ways to handle things why is it that we have put the elderly above the rest of usA So many of the them are not vulnerable but are willfully challenging and insufferable and it is why so many caregivers are suffering so terribly because we're supposed to put the elderly first and tolerate their crappy behavior. Where are the consequences for them? My father would engage in risky behavior all the time and continued as he aged and that made him stupid, irresponsible and dangerous - period! He put other people's lives at risk and didn't give a d*mn what they thought about it. I Know so many of you caregivers know what I'm talking about. What about the abuse elders heap on us, not to mention the emotional blackmail, the bullying etc. ? When do we get to accuse them of abuse and neglect? What are the rules for that? And don't waste my time with the 'well we have choices' BS - that's not always true. If we walk away from a horrible situation then we're accused of neglect. I'm so sick of the elderly being put above the rest of us just because they exist - this is why so many of them behave so badly because there are no real consequences. And I'm not talking about people with dementia or Alzheimer's.

Yes, I have apologized. I love my grandmother a lot, shes amazing to me. They knew her name because well, shes practically raised me. My mother had a lot of mental issues, many were not her fault and I forgive her, but my grandmother was on my forms because my mom couldn't find time to take me, even though she was my garden. They came up to our house and told my grandma what was happening, I was doing something at the time and said they would at least have to talk with me two more times. Thank you for being kind and understanding. Well the majority anyway. I know I was being rude, and I shouldn't have been, so its very nice to see people so nice and understanding.

Oh I just read the comments about my boyfriend. I live with him half time because he has a great family. They have gotten me in church and taught me stuff like how to be responsible and they tell me stories all the time. I'm not living with him half time because I'm trying to be irresponsible, but because his family is providing me with support and guidance that my grandmother just can't anymore. Grandmas taught me independence and not to be stupid, but shes so guarded from her younger years. For a long time I was told "men are cheaters mean can't clean" and stuff like that about not trusting people or men in general. His family teaches me how to see everyone equally. 

I believe Barb is correct in assuming the OP has left the site and I can't say I blame her. She came here for comfort and advise and all she got was magnification of what i assume is an isolated incident. The poor girl was scared out of her tree driving on the Interstate for the first time. Both parties should equally share the blame.
We don't know why they were running late for the appointment, maybe gma was to blame for that who knows?
Telling the girl she needs to take a course in anger management is way over the top. She already knows she did something wrong. Both of them should be apologizing. gma was hardly behaving responsibly by failing to properly supervise a young drive.
Now lets give everyone the benefit of the doubt and wish NeaNea a successful senior year in high schooling and a fulfilling time in college.

One caveat to my answer is that I assume your side of the story is accurate.

No, you won't go to jail. As a police officer told me, people have no idea how bad one has to be in order to go to jail. This is doubly true for juveniles.

I do believe the OP has left the site....

You have received a lot of good advice so far.
* Apologize sincerely to your Grandma. She may have made mistakes; but you are apologizing for your own part.
* If you are contacted re: this - own up to your behavior. You can tell them why you lost it, but don't make excuses. Most likely they will let it drop unless there is a pattern of abusive behavior.
* Continue to be a responsible person who is entering the adult world. If you have problems with your temper, get help. Best to deal with it now, rather than continuing bad patterns. And give yourself credit for reaching out and being willing to learn.

To some of the other responders: She is still a child - still in high school, or just finished. Remember yourself at that age. I was a very responsible teen who took care of my siblings and my mother who was ill, paid for my own things, and put myself through college. But I certainly did NOT know at that age how to handle difficult communication, handle frustration, etc. Give this teen credit for reaching out and asking for info and help. And give her credit for trying to help with the house and utilities. How many of you paid some of the house utilities when you were barely 18?

SZ x

How old is your grandmother? It sounds like she has been more of mother than a grandmother. It sounds like she has it together if she is taking care of her brother. If some reported my son when he was a teenager for being rude he would've been under the jail. It is always bad to be rude, but to be reported to APS seems a little over dramatic. I think they have better things to do. Hang in there. Apologize and go on like you have been.

NaeNae--

No, you're not going to jail and the worst thing that can happen from this is that someone from APS comes to the house and interviews you and gma.

You obviously learned a valuable lesson. People DO notice when they see Elders "possibly" being abused, and sometimes they report it. I have a feeling you may not be as forthright about the experience as you're telling us. Somebody had to know you to report you--did you carry this anger and conversation into the dentist's office with you? All medical professionals are REQUIRED to report possible abuse.

An earlier post said her PCP (her primary care doc) always asks if she feels safe at home--that is one of the fallback systems in place to allow elders to say "yes, my such and so is verbally/physically abusive". It's actually required of them to report it.

Now, have I ever gotten so angry with my mother I have yelled at her? Sorry to say, yes, a few times. But in the privacy of her home. Not excusing my lack of patience, but any caregiver gets exhausted and frustrated. But you're NOT a caregiver. You're a kid living with grandma, at grandma's OK. You need to respect that.

My brother, with whom my mother lives, was reported to APS by a neighbor. Brother has quite the temper. He wasn't yelling AT mom, but he has. The visit from APS straightened him out.

Just watch your mouth, your grandma wasn't using the best judgment, but she didn't need to be called an idiot. No one deserves that. Esp someone who is basically letting you live rent free. Sorry, paying the electric bill doesn't make you independent.

Ask gma's forgiveness with NO "but I was stressed out" excuses. Just an I'm sorry and don't do it again.

Ok, so you are 18 and that is still young. But you are old enough to be on your own and vote and you are fully responsible for your own behavior.

Having said that, have you ever been called stupid or idiot? Probably, I think everyone has at some time. Point is, how did it feel? I am seeing here that you are so much more worried about what is going to happen to you, than what you did to your GM. Being called those things hurts just as much as a slap in the face. Would you walk up to your GM and slap her in the face? I would hope your answer is no. Personally, I would rather be slapped in the face than called stupid or idiot. Especially by someone who is supposed to love me. But you can apologize and the two of you can get past this.

For future reference, yes, anyone who does anything to hurt another can be accused of abuse. As well it should be, because that is what it is. The only thing you could not be accused of would be neglect as you are not responsible for that person. If you do not regularly abuse or treat your GM poorly, I would not worry about getting in trouble with the authorities. Even if there is an investigation. It will pass and they will move on. However, if this is an ongoing attitude you have toward GM, you should get in trouble. Being hurtful or mean to anyone is never ok. Forgivable yes, ok no.

Hello all. I generally agree with those who focus on how Naenae needs to learn to control her expression of emotions.

And it seems to me that Lindabf's words are thoughtful and helpful, to a young person, for there is a shift in perception that we need to go through, from focusing on what we feel is bad in our lives and complaining without thought - to looking for ways to show more positives and work on our routines and respect - that can help change communication patterns and really help us fit in elsewhere.

But I cry for the widespread lack of focus on the importance of communication from young to old, while so much focus is only on blame of the young or outcasts for the style, without affirming the value of the apology, AND a conversation that gives explanations and intentions on both sides, and maybe setting new boundaries with respect.

Strikes me that grandma was not paying attention, when she was in the role of the agreed upon accompanied person for a new driver, who said she was nervous because the interstate was a new challenge.

It also strikes me that Naenae asked for some of the confusion by being late for the appointment - which adds stress and less time to try to communicate what you need, and less time to tell grandma that you are pretty nervous going on the interstate for the first time. With more awareness, you could ask her explicitly, to set the phone down during this ride, and if she refuses, pull over to the side and stop and say, please, I'm very nervous here, I want your help for the next part of the ride.

I had to raise my youngest brother, born with brain injury, into adulthood. And the whole world, particularly of women, was ready to fear him and diagnose him, forgive him, or talk endlessly to him about the error of his ways for his explosive temper, or call the police if he acted belligerent.

Yes, I saw that was a lesson he needed to learn. I demanded explicitly in many forms, sometimes written, sometimes on the phone or in public where I would have no risk of his temper, taught him that he needed to talk to me in a respectful way. He improved, but he had years of prior forgiveness to unlearn - and bad habits of being able to have seizures or threaten them, if people were not listening to him. I had to teach him this might gain people's attention, but this method hurt him and did not help others trust him or learn about him. So he would drop out of most places, for he had no method to learn to talk and listen.

He improved slowly but gradually, so I kept defending him, even if he would slip at times - but he learned to stand back farther at least.

And it helped for me to learn to end conversations simply, if he was triggered. Not try to push a conversation when feelings are high. Recognize that he was anxious and upset, and step back from trying to teach him anything in that moment. My lessons could wait, and we learned lots from each other later, when I asked him to talk.

In our after conversations, I discovered that at times, I'm insensitive, talk too much. He would usually apologize for "over-reacting" but I'd ask what had bothered him - and ask about specific actions or words that led up to his outburst. In that conversation, I learned so much more about how I might rush in a conversation.
By listening to him after those moments, I learned about how he found it confusing and challenging to juggle different goals set by different adults - and many gave him conflicting suggestions.

I did kept the focus on helping him learn social skills, but by being curious about what was going on for him - and making time to address this later, I learned about him what help I could offer and how to encourage him. Both parties perhaps, and yes, set boundaries that clarify signals. But do more than focus only on the reprimand for explosive behavior - yes that needs to stop and there should be consequences - minor ones, short lived, but making the point explicit.

But also take action to talk about feelings, so that both parties can learn that people are good, and different people trying to manage tasks together is complicated, both struggling with a complicated world that is confusing and demanding, often blind, unfair, mean and deceiving, many different messages for the young to assess. Make time for the after-conversation to clarify why those feelings arose - it can help you both know each other more and show you care.

And, Naenae, I agree too: shape up from being so rude, both in public and at home, find ways to just say, "I can't talk with you now, I'm too upset" and step away. Say words that explain what action was upsetting - not use general put-downs that show negativity in broad ways that clarify nothing the other can recognize except your feelings. Feelings don't explain themselves, you have to do that.

It's important to have a conversation that tells grandma, that if she will be the adult riding with you, and you are grateful if she does - but you need her to pay attention, not be on a phone. I'd guess she'll agree - it sounds as if you have a longstanding relationship of care and love between you - a precious value, worth getting it better. If she seems not to be able to agree to not use the phone, especially when you ask - then say, until you are more confident, you need someone who helps you if you ask.

Upstream, right or wrong I expect that your parent's situation was viewed as domestic conflict, and since it was the woman being the aggressor instead of the other way around people tolerated it or just wanted to get away from it. When it is seen as an unequal conflict people are more ready to step in.

I understand why gm was with you,you only bad a permit. Is there anyone else that can help you while learning to drive? This doesn't sound like a good situation as you are extra nervous after your brother's death, it seems as though gm is not cognizant enough to help you. Short words are repairable, your loss of lives are not...drive with someone better able to concentrate on your driving.
If this was reported, it will be a brief interview as you explain t h e circumstances. Remain calm during interview, keep only to topic. Don't blowup on gm

My mother said HORRIBLE things to my father (he has dementia) at restaurants, at the doctor's office, etc. for years, and no one ever batted an eye that I am aware of. I kept waiting for someone to intervene (lord knows I tried) but all anyone ever did was give a look of disgust. I was therefore under the impression that it takes a lot to qualify as abuse. Yours sounds very minimal compared to what I've witnessed!!! Cut yourself some slack, you are too young to be dealing with this.

I also agree with Barb Brooklyn. Your just 18 and you have learned a hard lesson on how life is in the real world. You stated you normally don't get angry at grandma, you just got your drivers license, you drove on the highway for the first time and you felt like you were in danger. You were obviously stressed. How many of us have gotten angry in the car while driving? I have, especially if I felt like someone put me in danger.

Your behavior at the time gave the office staff a bad impression of you and maybe they felt concern for grandma. Next time, take a deep breath, calm down and then proceed. If you act inappropriately, apologize and explain your behavior. Perception is everything today. I would apologize to grandma and just learn from your mistakes.

If APS does call, be honest and tell the truth. I was accused of elder abuse. APS came out, investigated the matter and saw that mom was well taken care of. We all make mistakes. If you are normally good to grandma, then I don't think you have anything to worry about.

geevesnc, agree there's prob lots more to the story...
The main thing that's strikes me is that this young girl reached out here at AGING CARE for advice!! "18" IS an adult but still VERY young. Don't know if too many 18s around me that search the net on places like AC.
Maybe gma is stressed too...

I love rovana's comment "if we were all locked up for being angry, who would cook dinner?" But even more, I want to underscore what BarbBrooklyn said. You are 18, which is barely adult. You have a year of high school left which if barely educated. You live halftime with a boyfriend, which is barely responsible. And you clean your own room. Hello! That's the bare minimum! Does Grandma call you stupid and an idiot and irresponsible? I doubt it. Would she like to from time to time? Guaranteed! Especially since she IS a caregiver and DOES have the considerable amount of stress that goes with that. So -- the only way this is about you is this: you have a temper and if you don't learn to manage it without attacking other people, it will hold you back your entire life. APS is not your danger. It's only your temper that could make you do something stupid that would have a negative impact on your college acceptance. It's only your temper that could make you say stupid things in college that would get you expelled or downgraded in your professors' eyes. it's only your temper that could get you into real trouble in the workplace. It will get you fired, and it will make it harder for you to find the next job. It's only your temper that will make you a questionable choice as wife or mother. Sounds like you have a good foundation for being a good, caring person, but you are slipping into a "she owes me everything she's done for me and it's never been enough" attitude. She does NOT owe you. The world does not owe you. You owe yourself the realization at this early age that you are in charge of the quality of your life. You choose your focus. If you choose to focus on the love you have for your grandma, even when you are annoying each other, your life quality will tend to be pretty good. If you choose to focus on all the ways she's stupid and an idiot, your life quality will pretty much suck. It's up to you. Sounds like you have had some really rough breaks. I do sympathize with that, having had a couple of rounds of those myself when I was in high school. That's why I'm telling you this. It took me more than 30 years to begin to accept my own responsibility for my life quality and stop blaming other people, situations, or experiences. Calling someone names can feel very powerful in the moment, but it's actually announcing to the world that you choose to be a victim, and there will always be people willing to help victimize you if you advertise. If you want to have some real power, try accessing that inner power that gives insight, restraint, and the ability to be better than runaway emotions will ever allow you to be. So yes, school counselor, church, anger management, support groups -- all these would be really good things to do NOW, while you still have time and support in your life to do this. No one's going to put you in jail for your temper tantrum, but if you make this a habitual way of responding to frustration, you will imprison your own potential 'cause it will all be sucked dry by the anger.

Was it stupid of your grandmother to give you bad or wrong directions that could have gotten you both seriously hurt or killed? Yes! You had a moment of anger and frustration, you are human and learning how to behave an an adult. You are learning how to drive and it can be scary in some situations. Apologize to your grandmother and ask that she doesn't give you bad directions because it endangers the both of you when she is in the car with you and you are driving. CathyW, the grow up was uncalled for and more than a little nasty. We all do some pretty stupid things and say stupid things when we are that young.

Grow up !