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My father relied on me to take him places after his lung cancer surgery.
He earned one last check, and split it 3 ways for us siblings, leaving one check for himself.
I was a bit resentful that siblings received a "gift" from Dad and my "gift" covered my own expenses taking care of Dad.

On the night of Dad's death, my brother appeared as we got home to tell me he had died in the ER. He said to give him the outstanding check in Dad's name, and he would cash it.

Brother not only stole the check for himself, my husband and I had to pay the funeral expenses. The amounts are not important.

Before arriving home, my husband and I were at that same hospital with his sister, who had made a suicide attempt. Not knowing my Dad was about to die in the ER.

Today, it is as it always has been. I cannot be in the presence of "family" without it costing me somehow. Estranged and careful.

There was no other "inheritance" except Dad's legacy to my two siblings: The Con. The scam. The lies.
I did not receive those genes, being the middle child and scapegoat, confirmed by my psychiatrist at the time.
I have gone NO Contact with siblings.
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bundleofjoy Aug 2022
hug!!!

awful.

as for:
“I have gone NO Contact with siblings.”

totally understand you. hug!

i’ve done the same. but every now and then, i must communicate with them. for example today. and as a consequence i had an awful day: they behaved terribly.

i send hugs to all of us, unfairly treated in one way or other.

protect your life.
and take some luck with you too:

here:
i’m depositing some luck right here:

🍀🍀🍀🙂🙂🙂
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caregiver adult child should get everything
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bundleofjoy Aug 2022
i have to say: i often feel exactly as you say. i feel that person should receive 100%.
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I think that if a caregiver is loving and hasn't received any compensation, yes. In my family, there was one son-in-law who showed up every day to care for my grandparents, keep them company, bring them food. One of their sons NEVER came to see them in the last 10 years, was a pretty crappy son his entire life. But he got $100K in the will, and the son-in-law got nothing.
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verystressedout Aug 2022
Awful.
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A thought...
Perhaps suggesting to parents that while they are alive, they treat siblings equal?
We hear of 'the golden boy' favored, gets anything he wants; the needy failure -to-thrive child living with parents; the successful married child who needs help with a down payment on a home; the teen who needs a car for work. And other scenarios, even the drug addict who steals from parents.

[Whatever you give to one, the others get an equal amount at the same time.] And, one would need to be rich. And, whoever said life should be fair.

Then, tell them all, whoever helps in the parent's declining years will get the entire inheritance based upon the hours given to their care. If any.

It will be obvious that I haven't worked all this out yet. I already gave back when I had the money.
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You can decide to do whatever you want with your own money and property when you die.

Any such agreement like, “I’ll help care for you if you leave me a larger share,” said to an elderly or sick person, sounds like extortion under duress.
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verystressedout Aug 2022
Hi ACaringDaughter, how do you feel about this scenario (it’s hypothetical; it’s not me):

5 adult children. All treated with love all their lives by the parents. 4 boys, 1 girl.

4 boys decide not to help at all. The girl helps. She gets all the stress, emergencies, loss of opportunities, gets poorer, while helping. She wants to do it out of kindness. She tries to balance it all with living her own life, too. The years go by. She gets poorer and poorer.
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Ive been taking care of my mum for 6 years and her financials are simple.. theres nothing to be inherited but I do get more time with her than anyone else and Im good with that.
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First off, I am not complaining. My parents took are of me for years until I was married and I would do anything I could to help them. However in the legal and financial realm of things, I share this post. My sister passed away years ago. My parents spent so much money on her for rehabs, lawyers and jail bonds. She was an alcoholic. Because of this and some hard times my parents remortgaged their home twice after paying it off the first time and now they still owe several thousand. Neither side of the family has a situation that they are available or willing to help. My father passed away in April. He had been in a wheelchair for 8 years and my mom stopped driving in 2019. My mom until then was still quite capable but dementia was causing her to lose her way. All that being said I had and still have the sole responsibility of my parent's care, especially after she quit driving. Grocery runs, doctor's appointments, home repairs, lawn care, running animals to the vet, staying overnight or several nights at the hospital and other general errands. I am self-employed and in all the time I have been caring for them I have missed weeks of work and lost customers and pay. After my dad's passing I realized my mom needed around the clock care. We pay someone about 7-8 hours a day, 5 days a week to stay with her while my wife and I work. With the work ethic these days they are always late, don't show or need off constantly, more stress. After all of her liability bills are paid, she only has enough money to pay for about 2 weeks of the sitter. I end up paying the rest. My wife and I cover a lot of the groceries. Since my father was in bad health and due to medical bills they did not have a whole lot left in the bank. My wife will stay a couple of hours a day until I get off and occasionally overnight so I can have a break. I feel guilty because it isn't her mom. I usually stay the nights and most of the weekend. She has a mom who is elderly and misses doing things with her. We are away from our kids quite often. We rarely get to worship together or do anything as a family unless we pay someone. We are living completely separate lives. It has put a toll on us financially, mentally, physically, on our marriage and our family life. She is not ready for a nursing home and we can't afford it anyway. Medicaid, if she qualifies will pay once she is admitted. However they have the system so rigged that to get her on medicaid you have to prove she has nothing and they feel the house is theirs automatically if it is still in her name. If you sell the house well that counts as worth and makes her ineligible for medicaid and you can't just gift it or spend it. All in their 5 year look back extortion plan. They worked all their lives and paid in all those years. They should be taken care of. Medicaid pays people everyday for doing nothing and those that have done anything. After all I have already done for my parents; why shouldn't I or anyone in this situation be allowed to just inherit everything and recoup what was lost and spent without penalty or hurting medicaid eligibility? Quite the conundrum.
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Grandma1954 Aug 2022
So I have to ask...
Why not sell the house, that money goes to pay for her care in Skilled Nursing. It isn't that "they take the house" the funds are used to pay for HER care.
If you need or want her house you can buy it and that also will provide funds to pay for her care.
It sounds like in your case there would not be much to inherit once debts are paid. But if there is that money should be used now to provide for mom's care.
While your parents were able to enter into a "contract" they should have been paying you for the care that you provided, the rides you gave etc.
I beg to differ on "Medicaid pays people everyday for doing nothing" I have never heard of Medicaid paying individuals.
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As my Mom’s primary caregiver for the past 2.5 years with two sisters who do the bare minimum, in other words nothing, I have a strong opinion on this topic! I have read through all the responses and I have to say unless you’ve been in the trenches doing what caregivers do, you really don’t get to have an opinion. This may sound harsh to some but let’s face it, it is only fair that if one sibling does everything then he or she should get the inheritance. If the others want theirs then They should be around for it. Most times it is one doing everything although I’ve read a few lucky people on here have decent human beings as siblings that split the care. Not in my case! They don’t even pick Mom up and take her to dinner or visit. So am I to feel guilty that I think her money should go to me? No way! Bottom line there will be no money left for them to get cause as I see it her money is there for her care. So as I told the eldest sib, if you don’t want to help then I’ll pay someone to help and there goes any inheritance! No bones about it! I want to go to dinner with my husband I need a break I have a lunch date etc you get the picture! I encourage anyone who is the sole caregiver to do the same! Spend their money on their care! There will be no questions or issues when Mom passes. It’s gone to her care if you would have helped there would be money left for you but…and this goes without saying but why would I want to bother with either of you? I’ve seen how you treated a family member in need. Have a nice life!
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bundleofjoy Aug 2022
YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSS
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I am in a ridiculous situation. I have been my mother's primary caregiver for many years. I worked part time and, eventually, gave up my job. I collected SS one year early. My siblings just decided to put Mom in memory care and did not inform me until the decision was made. My sister who did something with the house says I have so many months to get out, but also made a crack about sooner. I have had limited income for years and never took any money. My siblings made it very difficult for me, scrutinized my every move and sabotaged my efforts. In the last year, they have questioned my every move to support their agenda. Not one of them called Mom in a regular basis. I am at a loss.
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bundleofjoy Aug 2022
awfullllll. hug.

may karma happen to them. and may good things happen to you.
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Being a parent i … like others im sure … wanted each child to have similar whatevers.

but that was before becoming aware of reality and now feel the caregiving child(s) should receive more.

if the others are too uncaring and selfish to understand that it’s just too bad for them.
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bundleofjoy Aug 2022
i’m really glad to hear a parent having this view.
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My now deceased mother’s attorney told me to keep a journal and pay myself $50.00/hr., and write a check to myself from her “Trust,” once a year. (I had to pay taxes on it)
I paid myself $25.00/hr. instead.
She “mutha,” hated me and wanted me to see I was only getting half of a $33,000.00 annuity that required me to pay taxes on, after she died.
A 3,000 payout occurred once a year, so she controlled it from her grave.
Sister got the other half.
Sister in FLA whose rent was paid by our mother, got the entire TAX FREE, life insurance policy of $350,000.00 plus 1/3 of the Trust, $250,000.00, whined the whole time, that I was trying to get her to change her Will.
(2) nephews “ received the rest of the Trust because my brother died, so his share went to them.
its a thankless job and everyone’s throwing rocks, so PAY YOURSELF
.
I received apology letters 10 years later from my nephews, not my sister, who revealed herself as the queen narcissist.
Funny they realized I never cajoled her to change anything.
I have no family around me over a WILL, where they got everything.

Death reveals who a people really are.
Keep s journal with exact date, time, task and end time, with notes if necessary.
If anyone questions it, you can fling the journal at them and remind them you had to pay TAXES on it.
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Sarah3 Aug 2022
It’s sad that the child who is caring and giving is often exploited and treated like dirt. I’m so sorry what horrible people they are. In hindsight do you regret you didn’t make it 50?
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Who is asking this question. There is more to this story. Someone feels they deserve more? This person feels angry?
It may require a lawyer.
Depends on if the person with the inheritance is deemed mental competent to handle these decisions.
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KristineB Aug 2022
I was angry because my entire family actively tried to get me removed as trustee based on their ideology I was stealing.
NONE of them helped ever, ever and they lived close by.
She knew I was the only one who wouldn’t steal, plus I got the least and paid taxes on it.
The probate judge told them, “if she was stealing, she wouldn’t have put your mom in such a swanky place.
I just see her spending her mothers money on her mom.” He saw through them because this is common behavior.
It was just plain mean.
I sat in hospice alone, listening to her death rattle.
30 minutes after she died, their lawyers were calling me asking where their inheritance was?
It was Friday night. They had to wait until Monday
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Yes. I could never do what my brother has done for my dad and now for my mom! Granted, at first, it was he who got into a bind, and had to go back home, but because of that, when my dad declined, he was there with my mom for 10 years of my dad's illness! It has been a sometimes symbiotic, sometimes codependent arrangement, but regardless, his staying with them that long hurt his chances for some jobs bc they never officially did anything (I don't think any of us knew there were ways for family to get paid for caregiving if only so it could show as a legit job!) to formalize his status as caregiver, so now he has all this seemingly gap space from his last job. I had told my parents this but they are dividing it three ways, but if my brother ever needs more than his official share, he will have mine or whatever I can give him of what comes to me. My mom and I do not get along (he was the favorite), and if I had to do what he has done, my mental health would be in jeopardy. I check on him and ask about what the other two siblings can do, but it's complicated how he became enmeshed with them but yes, he 100% deserves ALL of it in my opinion.
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Angst74 Aug 2022
I'm in complete agreement with you. My father died in 1998 and my brother (with support from his wife) has been looking after our mother all the years since. He took care of the house and garage, the yard work, the car, all my mother's needs, including many doctor appointments. Mom's now 98, in a nursing home with dementia, but he visits her twice a week, takes her laundry to do at home, brings her occasional treats, etc. I live 300 miles away, and both my husband (age 84) and I (age 75) have health problems that prevent our traveling in these later years.

My belief is that Rights and Responsibilities are two sides of a coin. If you want to have Rights in something, you need to accept some Responsibilities. Conversely, if you have Responsibilities, you can expect to have some Rights (or Interest, or A Say) in these matters. Because my brother has had ALL the Responsibilities related to my mother's care and the family homestead, I realized a few years ago that he should have ALL the Rights to my mother's estate. I knew that her will designated that her estate be divided equally between my brother and me. After discussing this with my husband, he agreed with my decision TO RELINQUISH MY INHERITANCE.

I decided to do it this way, rather than ask my mother to write a new will, because my mother was already in the early stages of dementia and I knew it would be difficult for her to understand what I wanted to do, and I just didn't want her to think I didn't value her gift to me. But it was BECAUSE I did value the family estate, that I wanted it ALL to go to my brother, who has a daughter and son-in-law and grandson (whereas I am childless), thereby extending the family "legacy" into the next generations. I felt my brother deserved all this.

I don't know how valuable or complicated your parents' estate is. My mother's is quite modest. My brother's lawyer said it would be a simple matter of filling out a form, after my mother dies, to relinquish my share of her estate to my brother.

If this idea appeals to you, you can readily find information on Internet about it. Search for Relinquish an Inheritance.

You are a generous and compassionate person, as your brother has been, too, in taking care of your father. Perhaps this can help you find a way to guarantee that your brother remains financially secure.
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No I have seen the ugly side of this question. All her life my wife was close to her mother and father. She would visit when she could. And called frequently She moved to ca because the warmer climate was better for her health she has MS. Her sister stayed in the area. Her father always told her his estate would be split between her and her sister. But when the will was read he left everything to my wife’s sister it was several million dollars. There is no love when it comes to money.
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verystressedout Aug 2022
Hi! I don’t understand your answer. Your wife’s sister cared for her elderly parents? Or your wife too, and equally with her sister?

I think someone who helped their elderly parents should receive more, than someone who didn’t help. The person who helped, for sure had financial consequences, getting poorer while they help.
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If you're not being compensated while caregiving, the right thing would be that the caregiving sibling gets more inheritance than the rest of siblings. I wholeheartedly believe that. The real question is: do the siblings agree, not just in theory, but strongly enough to make it happen?? That will be your answer.
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verystressedout Aug 2022
Most non-helping siblings are awful, selfish, greedy people. (There are exceptions of course.) (Also, there are people with legitimate reasons not to help).

So, awful-non-helpers often want the same share of inheritance, even though they had zero stress and total peace of mind, while their helping-sibling slaved away.
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Best case? When there are assets, caregivers should be paid for their time and costs with cash or with liens against property. It is extremely unwise to assume that a will that may have been made before care-giving was needed will make up for expenses not reimbursed during life.

Also consider that the elderly parents often view the service of their daughters as something that daughters just do, as a matter of course, and needs no reward. This is not right, but I have seen it many times.

Also bear in mind that old fashioned and idealistic ideas often have great influence in the process of making wills. Too often parents piously insist that they love all their children equally, so all should inherit equally rather than realistically accept that child A does a lot for them, loves them in concrete ways, whereas child B has always been selfish and self-centered.

A whole lot of nonsense can influence the making of a will. If you are the child, be sure you are paid NOW, not later. If you are the parent, talk to your children, especially those you see the most. Talk about what you think is fair and what your children think is fair. Also try to separate the notions of a "family legacy" from the practical matters of what the various children may want or need. It has been a long time since it made any sense (if it ever did) to leave property to sons simply as an effort to keep the property in the family.
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verystressedout Aug 2022
I love your answer. Thanks for all your wisdom and warnings.
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Of course! I am biased on this one! My wife & I work full time and always do our best to help my parents. My father suffers from dementia, both parents in their mid 80s. I wish I had a home and the means that could accommodate us all,but my apartment just doesn`t fit the bill. Jobs, doctors appointments, handling their financials, shopping it all takes a toll on my wife and I. One sister lives in Canada, she and her husband have two young adult children, they work full time and made the effort to travel to Florida, helped out for a week, I appreciate the effort & expense. On the other hand my sister in NY and her husband are retired, own a multi-family, collect several pensions, are well-off and have not even bothered to come to Florida to help out. I don`t do this for the money, but how can anyone think the NY sister with hubby should get anything? If anyone has a different perspective please convince me.
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verystressedout Aug 2022
“I don`t do this for the money, but how can anyone think the NY sister with hubby should get anything?”

I agree 1,000,000%.
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If people want their parents to pay and the parents concede, the parents can go to an elder law attorney with a will modification that deeds x amount per year off the parents’ estate to the caregiving child. This is provided there is no money. If there is, it is better if they just pay you.
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sgsellsit Aug 2022
You have to be careful in possible nursing home situations. The gifting rules only apply to cash gifts of $15,000 a year or less and only refers to the IRS tax laws. Medicaid is structured so that they add to the medicaid benefit starting date for x number of dollars gifted. In other words if a parent tries to give a child money from their estate to spend down assets not only will it possibly make them ineligible but if they qualify it will be delayed for a period of time. The family will have to self pay until then. They have it rigged where the family gets nothing.
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I agree, however there’s no way to “enforce” that belief on family members. So it’s a moot point.
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verystressedout Aug 2022
I don’t feel it’s a moot point. For me, it’s good to hear what various people here on the forum feel about this topic. This helps me form my opinion on this topic, too.

I’ve read all the answers. I learned a lot, also from warnings from people.
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I have 3 siblings. 2 of them are snowbirds so they disappear for 6 months leaving 2 of us to care for mom who has dementia and dad who lives alone, no longer drives and needs care. We have an arrangement that works well. Myself and one brother care for our parents during the winter and spring and the snowbirds look after them during the summer and fall. It works very well. However if you shoulder all the responsibility then you should be compensated. It becomes your job and no one should work for free.
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My parents made it clear my sibling & I were to pay their bills then split whatever was left half and half. We did that when Dad finally passed last year. I was responsible for more than 3 years for my folks medical care and spending time with them. Our folks were in their home, then assisted living, memory care, then I pulled Dad out to have 24 hour care in an apartment near me. I did so b/c I could quit my job and be available. I’m glad I did, too, yet it really changed me. It’s very easy to lose yourself while trying to manage everything for another. I took calls at anytime day & night as my dad became more and more confused. I was scared, tired, overwhelmed and yet glad I was there- esp. for my dad. We had many very special times together too! My brother can’t understand how difficult it was. I’d tell him things and he’d laugh and say, “Wow, sounds like a real sh&* show!” Alzheimers and cancer wreak absolute havoc on our loved ones, our relationships and test our patience and compassion in innumerable ways. I spent lots of time and money trying to make my parents lives better as they battled their various ailments. Thankfully I could afford it, but many can not. I do believe the member providing most the care should receive more than members not involved so closely. It is but a small compensation for a most generous, yet difficult role that person has fulfilled. God bless those of you who provide that extra care- regardless if you’re financially compensated for it. As tough as it can be and usually is, it’s also an honor & a privilege to see a parent through to the end of their journey❤️
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I was the care giving sibling and was added as joint account holder on a small bank account used for household expenses. That account continued to be used for property maintenance while inheritance matters were settled. Otherwise all financial distributions were evenly split among siblings.
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Make sure you are on their accounts and pay yourself as you would any other creditor. All the better if you can get a letter from your parent stating this is what they want (if they are of sound mind). Keep a weekly spread sheet of how many hours you spent caring for them and what was done, from financial matters to personal care. My opinion is that if you can’t work because you have no help you should not go broke trying to care for your parents. If your sibling doesn’t like it. Tough. They can step up or shut up. That’s what I told mine.
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verystressedout Aug 2022
Yes!
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Are you the parent? If “yes, “ I think I would recommend it, if you are “feeling” it.

Are you the adult child? If “yes” — stay away from this topic unless you are asking about your own will. Someone else’s will (even if you are an heir) is not your business until after they pass away.

My parents gave me more. Not because I was their caregiver, but because they were “feeling it.” I didn’t know any of this until after they died.

I was their caregiver. Not because of the will I didn’t know about, but because I was “feeling it.”

I was sued by my siblings over the whole thing and and completely won both (yes 2!) lawsuits.

If you are the child and you feel you should get more if you are a caregiver, you are not really care “giving.”
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Caregiverstress Aug 2022
I totally disagree. If you put your life on hold to care for your parents and take a professional, emotional, and financial hit because of it, you should be compensated. Not to mention that most likely the siblings will stand to inherit more if the parent doesn’t end up in a facility because you are caring for them at home. A facility can easily burn through all the assets. It’s not just a simple question of “feeling it”. Whether you feel it or not you are still doing it, and should not go broke in the process.
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This question cuts deeply with me. Dad suffered an accident last year which has precipitated the need to step up care for my parents, (mom has dementia and dad was her caregiver). But my sis seems to want nothing to do with it.

Both my sister and I live in the same area as my parents do, but right after the need to step up care happens, my sister announces that she has decided to move across the country. When I raise a fuss she tells me that she can still help remotely, but as soon as I ask for her help she tells me that she is too busy since she has decided to go work for a startup- this even though she does not need to work at all since she and her husband are quite wealthy and he is already retired. Honestly I believe she has some deep seated issues regarding her relationship with my parents because she also shirked her responsibilities and temporarily disappeared when mom suffered a stroke 15 years ago.

so I’ve been doing it all- dealing with the long term care insurance, the nursing care company and the schedule, the automotive insurance company, getting my dads car out of repair and figuring out how to sell it, filing for my dads supplemental accident insurance, visiting assisted living facilities, taking them to doctors appointments, activating financial POA’s, taking over my dads finances, dealing with their taxes, and their bank accounts, managing their meds, managing their groceries, necessary clothing items, dealing with their computer and internet and cable issues, and managing necessary repairs to their condo and the insurance coverage for it. and not to mention just spending time with them!

my wife has been so kind and is helping a bit to take some of the stress and burden off of me, but we are also dealing with her aging father at this time.

when my sister told me she couldn’t help, my wife advised me to begin tracking all the hours I spend helping my parents, and it looks like I average around 12 hours a week of helping them EXCLUDING my visits just to see them.

Dad has already said verbally that all the monies from his car sale and supplemental accident insurance should just go to me. However, my parents’ will says everything is to be split equally between me and my sis but I am tempted to just take what I think should be my fair share since I am now controlling my parents finances.

and at this point I never want to have anything ever to do with my sister.
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PeggySue2020 Aug 2022
You cannot just take their money unilaterally as POA! And them paying you when still alive could spur allegations of problematic gifting for Medicaid.
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This is an awesome question and I'm sure almost every caregiver considers it at one point or another...especially on really tough days.

I moved out of state to move in with my folks and help them age-in-place. My mom is in her fourth year of dementia. I cut back my work hours to less than ten a week after celebrating my 25th anniversary with my employer.

Before expecting a bigger inheritance, I'm trying to figure out how to be compensated while I'm caring for my folks. If I start thinking about who might get what at the end, I know me; that could lead me to feeling resentful and/or keeping a running list of checks-and-balances.

Your question is very practical! I suggest you focus on what will bring you peace of mind. For me, my greater peace comes from knowing I'm doing everything I can to help my folks. This could change but I believe God will provide whatever I need in the future.

He always has.
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BurntCaregiver Aug 2022
You have a right to charge for your service. Look at different care agencies and see what they're charging to provide live-in 24-hour caregivers.
Then you visit a lawyer with this information and tell them that you would like to begin getting paid for being your parents' live-in caregiver. If it's all legally done and worked out, I don't see why you can't charge the same to care for your parents 24/7 as a care agency would charge.
When tens of thousands of dollars get paid out to a care agency by a client Medicaid does not consider this 'gifting' in their look-back period.
Let a lawyer set this up for you. Have a consultation with one that specializes in elder law and estate planning.
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I agree, its alot of work and money to help and the one who helps should get the most
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verystressedout Aug 2022
Yes!
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I think, ideally, the helping child should be paid as you go along and the final inheritance should be split evenly. That is your final word to your children and you should tell them you love them equally. Of course, if you're going on Medicaid it might get complicated, consult an expert on how to adequately and legally compensate the helper. I think a will is the wrong place to make distinctions. When you're writing it you don't even know what the final accounts will be. My grandparents, for instance, left a larger portion to my uncle because they lived in Florida as he did and he was looking out for them there. As it happened though, my Grandmother moved to Maryland in her final years to be near my mom, who looked out for her there. She and my dad did the nitty-gritty care work for my grandmother. And as it happens my uncle had passed away by then, so the extra money went to his kids.
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Inheritance is a gift, certainly not an entitlement. If you are taking primary care of your aging relative, you should be POA. In turn, you should be using their funds to pay for their care. Most likely, that’s why they saved that money to begin with. Ask any person over 50 why they have savings, and some of their answer will be, “in case something happens to me and I need help.”
Ask yourself if you’d expect your son or daughter to go broke caring for you. No is the answer. Give yourself permission to use their money! It’s why it’s there!!
If your siblings or anyone else has a problem with it, that’s tough. They can step up, help, and use the money in the same way. It’s what’s fair and just. Losing someone is hard enough. And the person you’re caring for is most likely not themselves, and not in a frame of mind to be logical about decisions at the end of their life. Not only should you be commended for your caring role in their life, you should certainly not be worse off financially if it can be helped. Good luck with everything.
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klsmith Aug 2022
I couldn’t agree more.
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My husband and two siblings were equal inheritors, but because their sister was the one with whom their mother lived for her last years, the two brothers agreed to give her a larger share. Nice way to do it, all around.
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