Grandpa is making sexual advances toward granddaughter. I don't know what to do?

Sighs i knew my writing that might get some folks upset. No i didnt not say that coping a feel was ok.. Not at all.

Absolutely it’s not ok!! Granddaughter should not be Grandpa’s tour guide for a trip down Happy Time Memory Lane. Just the fact that he would ask her if he can touch her sounds like foreplay. In my Dad’s day, if someone were caught (ahem) “misbehaving”, they would nail his penis to a log and set the log on fire. Yeah, boy.

No, grandpa copping a feel is not okay, who in their right mind thinks that using your granddaughter to remember when is appropriate. No, never!

Sounds like Grandpa could definitly have some changes in his Mental Status. Maybe he should be evaluated and you should just let her work with him only with others around. On the other hand i keep wondering what " feel the legs " means. Are we talking a simple pat? Seems to me a pat would be ok . ..just an old man remembering he was a young man once. On the other hand if that hand moves...ewww.

Hi Feeling alone,
Lots of different opinions on  Grampa here huh? Well whatever is going on with him, if anything phsyiologically, is for his daughter to find out. And whether she does or not is on her. What will also be on her is how her daughter feels about her and herself, when this is over.

I know a girl who was briefly molested by her uncle. He was her Mom's brother. He got at the girl while he baby-sat for them. The girl felt sick and dirty. She told her aunt. The aunt told the girls parents. The dad beat up the uncle.

But the girls Mom never talked to the girl about it. Never asked how far he went and never took her child to see a Dr. It was swept under the rug.

The girl grew up thinking she wasn't important enough to her Mom, to be cared for. The girl thought SHE was dirty and SHE wasn't really worth much. After all, if her own Mom didn't care about her, then she KNEW she was worthless.

The little girl did not consciously know her little brain concluded this and formed these opinions of herself.

It took many, many years in therapy for the girl to unravel and get to the root causes of her negative behaviors later in life.

I say all this to say, how will your bf's sister internalized her Mom's dismissive attitude about this event. AND having her Mom try to get her to go BACK and continue to provide care for incestuous grandpa??

The Mom is damaged for whatever reasons. But I hope she doesn't damage her daughter. Even though she's 24, how our Mom's treat us matters and continues to effect us psychologically.

I just want to put this out there - if grandpa DOES have dementia (which the OP does not believe he does), that doesn't necessarily mean he is not ALSO a historical sexual abuser.

A lot of times with dementia, the person has lowered inhibition. So grandpa could be both a lifelong sexual predator AND someone with dementia - having the filters removed would just mean he might be less able to hide that part of himself. (I mean, what happens to sexual predators when they get old? Our society spent so long NOT talking about sexual abuse, that we don't have a clue who was or wasn't an abuser in their past.)

Please note I'm not trying to say whether grandpa is or isn't a predator. Just that it's possible BOTH things are true.

Something we most often forget is that sexual abusers - any abusers - really are people we know.  Sexual predators in particular mostly tend to be very, very nice people. Their "niceness" or charm, or whatever magic people skills they possess, is what lets them get away with it for so long.  Abusers are often some of the most community-involved and/or family-involved people you will ever know.   When someone we know and like/admire turns out to be an abuser, it can be an automatic response to disbelieve or negate the experience of the victim(s).

I agree that the OP's sister-in-law should not have to provide any of his care, not even "in tandem" or by providing other services, if she does not want to. She must feel completely sickened - at best - by what happened, and should not be expected to serve to this man in any way.  I do think the mother is incredibly wrong to persist in asking, and I question her ethics in choosing her father over her child in a situation like this.

I also support the OP and her boyfriend in refusing to provide care. I'm sure the sister feels very confused and alone in the family right now, especially as her own mother is basically refusing to protect her from future abuses by insisting she continue to help. As important as it is that an elder person receive adequate care, it's also important that the sister does not feel the rest of the family is siding against her, because that's going to leave deep wounds long past when grandpa is gone.

If this leaves grandpa with inadequate care or leaves mom struggling, then it means it's time for a change of care plan, not for everyone to suck it up and do things they shouldn't have to do.

It's possible mom was abused, but there's no way of knowing unless she opens up about it. If she was abused, she may have a lot of guilty feelings that prevent her from speaking about it. For example, it's not unusual for sexual abuse victims to experience a pleasurable physiological response to sexual touching, which they had no control over, and then to feel incredibly guilty and bad for that. It's not unusual for child sexual abuse victims to still love their abuser, because most children DO love their parents, for good or for ill.  It's certainly not unusual for survivors to block out past abuse, so that their very mental stability now is entirely dependent on rejecting hard evidence of that abuse.  So the family may wish to confront her about it, but that doesn't necessarily mean they're going to get the truth.

I've read it a lot of times in this forum - people should not be providing care to elders who have abused them. I realize that even the lowest type of criminal in society is entitled to health and old age care. But that does not mean their victims, or those who support their victims, have to be the ones providing it. I don't believe someone who commits an act of sexual predation is automatically entitled to receive the KIND of care he or she wants.  Care homes exist.  So do home care aides.   

I dealt with this directly with my 92 year old father-in-law when he came to live with us. He had fronto-temporal lobe dementia, which involves loss of executive functioning, and he truly believed he and I were having some kind of sexual flirtation and fling! It sounds a lot like what you are going through with your boyfriend’s grandfather.

My FIL would make lewd sexual suggestions, tell me in detail what he wanted to do with me, and grope me if he caught me alone. It was quite traumatizing, not just to me but to the whole family. My poor husband... he had to deal with his father lusting after his wife. And when I would tell FIL, “I’m married to your son. Don’t you think that’s wrong?” He would answer, “No. He would want you to make an old man happy.”

Actually, no, he wouldn’t. But that’s the thing with fronto-temporal lobe dementia: the person suffering from it may know intellectually that something is wrong, but it no longer feels wrong to them. They believe it’s not wrong. In my FIL’s case he truly believed he and I had enjoyed sex in the past! Maybe he’d fantasized and now believed those fantasies. Maybe it was something else. But he believed it and nothing would make him believe otherwise.

Ultimately what worked for us was for me to never be alone with him. Never alone in the same room. Another family member was always there with us, or I would leave to go elsewhere in the house if we were alone in the house together. Out of sight, out of mind. I’d make him lunch and go upstairs. I’d come back down again when my husband came home. I was there in case of emergency but I could not be full caregiver. Your boyfriend’s sister cannot be part of her grandfather’s caregiving.

But I hope she, and all the family, can understand that it could well be that the old man cannot help what is happening. It doesn’t have to mean he’s always been a perv or a predator. This could be part of a disease process.

My FIL died six months ago. We miss him very much, but we lost him a few years ago when he moved in and this other diseased person made his presence known. After his passing we are free to remember and mourn the person he really was. I hope the family can find a way through this that leaves that door open.

FeelingAlone, just curious if Grandpa is making advance late afternoons and evenings, but not during the mornings and early afternoons.

If the advances are happening later afternoon and evenings, there is a dementia called "sundowning". My own Dad would get into his time machine and go back to the 1940's. His conversations were mainly work related.

Another thing, I wonder if Grandpa's own father was like that. That would make his own Dad be in the very late 1800's. Women were treated by some as if they were property, and 2nd class. Heck, women couldn't vote until 1920. If Grandpa's father acted the same way, Grandpa just followed in his father's footsteps. Usually most of the time such abuse would stop or slow down as each generation advances.

We can't immediately jump to the conclusion that the grandfather's "that's just the way it is" means he's done it before; remember my example of the man who was able to hold two conflicting opinions about his wife at the same time. He sees an attractive woman, he feels a sexual attraction and he wants to act on it - he could be saying that's the way nature intended.
(And BTW there are still family members who deny the man I knew had anything wrong with him)

If Grandpa insists that “this is just the way it is”, he’s gotten away with it before. Probably more than once. When I was 13, I was already a 38C bra size. It was the era when we wore bras that made the breasts hard and pointy. I had an aunt and uncle I adored but my uncle would just sit and stare at me when they visited. He never “tried anything”, but it creeped me out nonetheless. When I mentioned it to my mom, she blew me off. I think it’s because these moms came from an era when sex just wasn’t discussed, especially perverted and/or prohibited sex.

This mom knows something. She may not even be aware she knows something. Grandpa may not have dementia. Not all old people do. He may just consider any young girl he takes a fancy to as fair game. If Mom has been getting respite help from these kids, she may dread having to take on more responsibility for this Dirty Old Man if they back off. I think next we will read that she is ordering them to take care of Grandpa. Guilting them into it. I pray they resist. Sadly, I don’t think that the confrontation with Grandpa did much good. If he has dementia, he didn’t understand what they were telling him. If he doesn’t, he’s just defending what he’s probably done all his life and gotten away with. But, if he doesn’t have dementia, at least now he knows they’re on to him.

I think what Laurel said is probably true. Maybe he can't help his actions. Gramps needs to have a check up. I think the granddaughter handle the situation well. She walked out. Since he knows what he did and sees no problem with it, the granddaughter should not be quilted into caring for him. I also commend the gson for keeping the situation calm and having Mom present.

Some forms and or phases of dementia include obsession with sex and/or what they call "disinhibition". The part of the brain that filters out sexual urges (and often also sugar cravings) is no longer there, but the part of the brain that wants sugar and sex (amygdalla) is all revved up.

If Grandpa was not always creepy like that, you might suspect onset of dementia. Several forms of dementia manifest as behavioral changes rather than memory loss in the early phases, especially Frontotemporal Dementia (FTD), and FTD patients often show the sex obsession/porn obsession/sugar craving thing and disinhibition long before other symptoms appear. They also become extremely self-centered and lacking in empathy (that part of the brain is destroyed in the earliest phases).

The combination of sex obsession, disinhibition and lack of empathy add up to incidents like you describe with the granddaughter.

I know this is a very, very hard thing to deal with and you and Grandpa's family have my full sympathy. Is he showing any other signs that are not in keeping with his lifelong personality? Self-centered? Eating lots of bananas and sweets? Blurting out embarrassing remarks? OCD type behavior, etc?

Pervert or demented, new behaviour or part of a lifelong trend - we can only guess which is true. Sooner or later the old man's care was going to become greater than the family could handle, if BF and sis step out (and I agree they should) that time is probably now. Mom is going to be upset that the s**t has hit the fan, stepping away from GF doesn't mean you can't be there to help her plan the next phase, if she will let you.

I just want to say what happened in My family, my Mothers oldest sister (ALL of this older generation is now gone now, passed away) was married to a pervert. That entire generation knew of it, as he molested my cousin, his only daughter, his only Son, his granddaughter, and an attempt on one one of my older Sisters at about age 13, which scarred her for life, I am not privy to the details of the others, but I'm sure there are probably more victims, as I know he was married before, for a short time, but never had any contact with his previous family, Hmmmm. 

Being that this was a generation of  "covering up", his dirty little secrets were still "addressed by several of my Uncles,my Grandparents, and my own Mother and Father, with threats of ostracation and physical violence against him, so that it would not happen again,  what my own parents did, was create a buddy system amongst their 6 kids, never to be alone anywhere near him, but also my parents made sure to keep a close eye on him at family functions. Definitely not the best and most complete blockade of defences against him, but that is what it was, and to my knowledge,  it worked.

For some reason the "Oldies" chose not to prosecute him in a court of law, probably in reverence to my Mom's sister, who (from what I understand), was in some amount of denial about the extent of the situation,  or because she was reliant on his paycheck, we're talking about the 50's and 60's, where our Mom and 4 Aunties were all housewives.  Lets say that there were a lot of kids (cousins), all being closely supervised. 

And also, my entire family ALL of that generation, immigrated here from Wales, UK, all sponsored by this particular American GI Uncle, so I'm sure they all had a particular allegiance to him to some degree, in protecting him from prosecution,  and it was also unfortunately a thing of the times, families tended to cover up, and make allowances for the family pervert. Nonetheless,  my Dad espespecially,  was Always on the lookout for something untoward happening to All of the children in this Uncle's proximity, and never let any of us alone with him. My older 4 sister's too, kept a close eye out on him, to protect Me and my younger brother. It wasn't a "secret" in the family (except for the very young ones), but only to "outsiders" and to the Police and court system, it was handled "internally ", not that this was the Correct way to do it, but it is what it was.

Interestingly enough,  this Uncle ended up having both his feet amputated due to gangrene, from poor Diabetic foot care in his 60's, Hmmmm!

Now, I'm not saying that this is in Any way what is happening in Your own family,  but if your husbands Mother is "covering up",  from what you have mentioned, it does sound like perhaps she is aware of the situation,  or quiet possibly, was once a victim of Grandfathers dirty deeds, and like most abuse victim's, has been covering up for him for a very long time, because like most perverts, they do have other redeeming qualities,  that 'somehow" allow for such degenerate actions, as in my own family.  Also in my own family,  this Uncle was still considered a revered Husband,  BIL, Grandfather and Uncle,  but much of what he did, has come out many years after the fact, most of which, After all of the Oldie generation was passed.

I know that my own sister was deeply affected, was terrified of him, and Hated him with passion. The scars of her one (interupted) interaction with him still surface to this day. If the subject is ever brought up, she still becomes hysterical,  and immensely concerned about any other possible victims in the family or elsewhere,  mostly for our eldest girl cousin (his daughter), whom we girl cousins all have a very close relationship with, let's say, it's not exactly a club you wish to be a member of. But we work through it the best we can, giving them support,  and mostly to qualify that we do believe that these things did happen to them.

It's just something to think about, these kinds of degenerate actions in families Do get Covered Up, either due to the repercussions of What Might Happen,  Shame, Embarrassment,  Guilt,  or perhaps the victim was told to keep it quiet,  for fear of outside repercussions. It's the victim in this case, who needs to be comforted, and she should Never be put into a position of having to care for her Grandfather if she doesn't want to,  End Of!

What the Mom chooses to do with this information is on her, but remember,  she likely was a victim herself!  

So, here's my take.

Grandpa has a history of this sort of thing, which the mom knows ( either because she was the victim, or was told...). She'd rather not open up this can of worms because past abuse will come out, oh, the shame and humiliation. So, she thinks better just ignore. And force daughter to endure.

Pretty upsetting, right?

How about boyfriend accompanies grandpa to a doctors visit and has this discussion? Without mom?

Mom is likely scared if her dad goes to AL, all this will come out. Makes her desperate to keep him home.

Mom could use a visit to a mental health professional in dealing with all this.

I agree! He MUST be held accountable.
It would be bad if he did this to anyone (whatever their sex) I understand he MAY not have control over his actions BUT that does not excuse it OR make it acceptable.
He has betrayed her trust.
Personally I would not ask her, or expect her, to go there any more.
May be, if she really, really, must help - do it in pairs and never be in the same room as him (and definitely NEVER alone!)
This though, I think, will not help, as they will still be - 1 carer short. So best she does not go at all.

why not excuse the sister from her duties for 'bad grandpa'. if possible. maybe she could pick up other ways to help, but not when it comes to him.

From his comments on - "that's just how it is", sounds like this is not his first incestuous interaction.

Are you close enough to your bf's mom to have a girls only talk and ask her if she was a victim of her father's? Explain the real possibility that her blowing off her daughters feelings and forcing her to care for this pervert could lead to an irreconcilable split between them.

I'm sorry but being scared and sticking your head in the sand over this is NOT the way a mother acts. I would have served his azz for dinner for inappropriate behavior and touching of my daughter, I don't care if he was my sperm donor.

Hats off to your boyfriend for standing up to what's right and what's not. Tell him, if he is like grandpa it is all of gp admirable traits, cuz he is obviously not exactly like gp.

I also want to say that it is okay for any female helping this guy, to call him on his actions and comments when they happen. My dad likes to chase young 20ish females and brag to me, I tell him that he needs to stop with the perversion or the visit is over. Shuts him up, til next time anyway.

I hope this family finds a way through this horrible situation intact.

If I were the granddaughter, I would stay away from this creepy old guy for as long as his mind was set on molesting her.

For now, he's only asking to touch her legs, what if next time he finds her breasts irresistable.

Whatever the reason that causes the gp to act out sexually, it does NOT matter. It is wrong for him to touch his own gd. He might psychologically scar her for life if he gets his way.

And the mother.... she disgusts me.

Thank you all for your input and thoughts- really means a lot to me.

Update on the situation:

My boyfriend confronted his grandpa with his mother present.
He initially asked him "Did you touch (sister's name)'s leg?" and he denied it at first but then admitted "Yeah, I wanted to touch her legs" after some more prodding. And then actually described the interactions from his end- matching what my boyfriend's sister has claimed.
My boyfriend repeatedly told him that the touching/incest situation was unacceptable but grandpa defended himself with "Well, that's just how it is" and "I complimented her legs like anyone else's". To this my boyfriend responded "You never compliment MY legs", grandpa says "Well that's different". My boyfriend told grandpa repeatedly "It's NOT acceptable to tell your granddaughter that you want to touch her legs or body" but he continued defending himself- insisting that he did nothing wrong. Thankfully no one yelled or raised their voices to start a fight- the confrontation was very direct and fairly calm.

I'm kind of surprised that he remembered saying all of these things to my boyfriend's sister. Nothing he said seemed delusional to me. He seemed fully aware of everything he did. It's odd to me that he has only made advances toward her also- not toward caregivers, his own daughters, myself, or other strangers.
Part of me wants to firmly believe that a disease or condition like dementia is doing this- not grandpa. Part of me is confused and upset thinking that this abuse is coming directly from grandpa. I've known him as a nice man but most people I know have "nice sides" and "bad sides"- including myself. It's a situation beyond me to assess properly.

I think my boyfriend's mother is in denial. Though present for the confrontation, her response was "I don't think grandpa is the same anymore", "If he was 60, this would be wrong- but now he is over 90". My boyfriend's father is also aware of the situation now and says he does not know how to handle it.
My boyfriend's mother still wants him and his sister to help out with caring for grandpa. She is upset that "Now no one will want to help take care of him" because my boyfriend and his sister are both scared and refuse to go to his home anymore.

Currently the tension stems from two views: My boyfriend and his sister think that grandpa's behavior is unacceptable and should be addressed, while their parents think that this should be ignored and care at grandpa's home should resume as before.

Personally I am disappointed that my boyfriend's mom placed a greater interest in the care of grandpa over her daughter- but I am not upset with her because this situation is scary for everyone. And I understand her need to care for her elderly father while her child is an adult, capable of making her own choices even if they oppose her mother's wishes.

I don't think my boyfriend's mother wants to tell the doctor about the situation but I've urged my boyfriend that it's important that a doctor is at least aware of what is happening, regardless if it helps or not. He agrees and currently we're trying to convince his mother to stop asking his sister to help care for grandpa and to seek further medical help for grandpa. In the past we have also had trouble convincing grandpa to seek any sort of medical aid.

My mother was obsessed with sex in the nursing home as well. At times, it was all she talked about until I told her to “Be a lady and ladies don’t talk like that.”

I believe BF’s sister needs to drop out of the picture for a while. Stay away from Grandpa. Split the caregiving between whoever is left and leave her out of it. He’s obviously obsessing about her. If he has dementia, telling him no isn’t going to work. It’s a shame her mom is in denial. Maybe she has experience with Grandpa’s obsessions? If Grandpa doesn’t have dementia, this could very well be a dangerous situation for Granddaughter. UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES should Granddaughter be bathing him or providing any other personal care! 

If BF has decided to call it quits, you need to respect his decision. It’s HIS grandpa.

@cwillie
Thank you for the thoughtful response! I agree with the comments saying that we should seek medical advice/input from a doctor.

The main caretaker is my boyfriend's mother. I think the entire situation relating to grandpa's health is very hard on her. She may be in denial- I'm not sure why she's so silent when it comes to discussions about grandpa's sexual advances. She also does not like discussing the topic of seeking assisted living if his health gets to a point beyond our help.

I think this situation is hard on everyone in the family- I like the idea of coming together and having a serious conversation. If anything, hopefully we all at least feel less alone.
I think it will be a challenge because the family has a history of fighting rather than communicating, but it's motivating to know that there are steps to take toward any sort of resolution.

Of Course you should support your boyfriend's sister, but the family should not abandoned Grandpa.

This unfortunately is a common occurrence on this forum, and sometimes it is an example of dementia, but it also could be that this man has the characteristics of a dirty old man, come to the surface after being buried for a time.

Grandpa should be confronted, and told that this behavior will Not be Tolerated under Any Circumstances! And unfortunately it might be best that it does come from The Grandson! Let Grandpa explain his behavior if he can, but also ask him to Apologize, and tell this young lady that he will never do it again, to her or anyone else! He needs to know how uncomfortable it made her feel!

Grandpa may have felt it wasn't any big deal, or that he was complimenting her, but the fact that it made her feel uncomfortable,  is enough to address this head on!  Only then will this family get back on track in caring for him.

Unless the old man has been a lifelong abuser chances are very good he has other signs of losing cognitive function but everyone is shrugging it off. Having him agree that he knows his granddaughter doesn't mean he understands what he is doing is wrong, I know of one man who admitted his belief that his wife was having an affair was impossible and wrong, but the next breath he said he still believed it - these kinds of delusions and misconceptions can be very strong.

Unless he is being aggressive I wouldn't jump in to defend BF's sister, she is a 24 yr old young woman, not 14 - whatever she chooses to do you need to support her decision. "Punishing" grandpa isn't going to change his behaviour because he really isn't in control anymore. All dementia isn't Alzheimer's, and all the "classic" symptoms we see in the media are not always present or even the first clues that something is amiss.


edit: I just realized it sounds as though I'm advising you all do nothing - that's not what I meant at all, I think the family needs to open their eyes and come up with a solution that takes everybody's needs into consideration. Perhaps the grandfather needs more care than the family can provide, he certainly needs a physical and cognitive assessment. Whether the young woman feels she can continue to handle the inappropriate comments or not should be up to her.

Your feelings about supporting and standing with this woman are correct. This guy NEEDS to be confronted by more than his victim...by your boyfriend especially because often times, male solidarity in saying "This isn't right." is especially important.

This will also help uncover if there is some mental condition at play or if as other family suspects, this is a continuing cycle of abuse.

It goes without saying that the grand daughter should have no more contact with this man on her own, and she should have 100% of the say in seeing him at all after this. If she isn't comfortable being around him anymore, support her in that!

FeelingAlone
Is it possible for all three of you to be there at the same time. Then confront him?

I think you need to find out if this is his usual behavior.

A change in mental status, which this represents, if he's not a habitual "dirty old man", needs to be reported to his doctor. He could have a UTI, or have had a stroke, which sometimes removes the filters on his behavior.

@BuzzyBee
He has only done this to my boyfriend's sister and she is the only one who has confronted his behavior so far.

I am scared to confront him but I want to hear what he has to say. And I think it's something I should do if I want support my boyfriend's sister because right now she is alone

Does he do it when anyone else is around?

Me and my big mouth would tackle him about it. Explain to him what it looks to others.
It is NOT acceptable!

Such a bad dilemma to have to solve.
I wish you luck

What did the grandfather have to say when he was confronted about his unacceptable behaviour?