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If I should ever need to go into a nursing home, I hear that they take everything that you own. My question is, How do I protect my Annuity from the nursing homes ?
If assets (like bank accounts) are titled jointly with a living person, they are not eligible for MERP. Real property is protected as long as it's in a "trust" (belonging to the trust, not the person) or in something called a "life estate." Google "life estate." As for your annuity, I believe as long as it's willed to someone, it will go to them after you die. MERP applies only to probatable assets. As for protecting your annuity when you go into a NH, there are ways, but they all involving re-titling your asset. There's a "life trust" where you sign your annuity over to the trust and you can use the proceeds of the trust to pay your expenses, but the asset belongs to the trust. You could transfer the annuity to someone you REALLY trust and hope they don't pre-decease you or you don't need NH care in the next 5 years. There are ways, a small, finite number of ways. Good luck.
glorygirl51: You appear to be totally in the dark about Medicaid. Go to Medicaid.gov and educate yourself about the app process. Just like Kimber said "you pay for everything now" so why would you think that an NH is a free ride?
1Rare...problem is that it might be different today then when your dad did it. With NH care and other medical care going sky high in most cases, more and more states are changing their recover laws. It may not be the NH looking to recover...it could be the state now looking to recover any Medicaid aid it spent on senior care and that law could have changed from what it was to what it is now quite recently.
And so talking with an Elder Law attorney, even if you think you can't afford it, would be the prudent choice when you really think about it.
gladimhere, I hate to tell you this, but I must disagree with you on this because my bio dad did a transfer on death of his house before he ever entered a nursing home, and the nursing home could not touch his house. Somehow he was also able to take care of his life insurance policy and anything else he wanted protected and the nursing home could not touch anything. I happened to be the one who previously asked a question when I was discovering stuff about my dad's life insurance policy, there was a problem and I discovered certain things along the way, which is how I know what I know. I know who got the house and it wasn't the nursing home, and I have a good idea who also got all the money. I don't agree with how everything turned out because I think someone took advantage of my dad, which is most likely the reason why things turned out the way they did
If you want to protect assets and/or prepare for Medicad spend down you hire a Certified Elder Law or Estate Planning Attorney. If you have assets you do not want to get your plan on a chat board that is for supporting caregivers with care related needs. You need a plan that is recreated based on your situation.
A will, nor a transfer on death of property will protect assets. Medicaid will place a lein on all property. Medicaid will recover the total amount spent on care of an individual before ant sort of assets are disbursed to beneficiaries. Read up on Medicaid Estate Recovery Program for your state.
If available in your state, you could do a transfer on death for your home. My bio dad did this in 08 but they became unavailable in Ohio in 09 from what I found out. If you have a life insurance policy, make sure to change your beneficiary within a timely manner, and make sure your will is taken care of so that the nursing home can't snatch anything that supposed to be protected by a will.
Great question - broad answer. There is much well intended mis-information that's openly provided. There is NO cookie cutter template. There are many variables to consider which will determine the outcome. The very first thing once you have your arms around the total assets, is to understand there are state and federal laws. If there is a large asset base, DON'T look for an estate planning attorney, look for a strong eldercare attorney. There is a difference. There are questions that you need to ask attorneys, funeral directors, nursing homes, financial planners, even siblings. There is a book that provides a roadmap, action plans, questions to ask the professionals called "Navigating the Eldercare Journey...without going broke!" It's on amazon - you may find it helpful.
Rainmom, it is strange when we take care of our folks how just a simple acknowledgement that someone is interested in how we are doing and they are taking such good care of our folks how that will turn us into puddles. That someone else knows and understands an has the compassion to say it goes such a very long way and is so appreciated. I wonder if these sorts of people know and understand how much it means to us.
Yesterday I visited my mother at her NH. Mom was probably in the worst condition I've seen her in - I mean mentally and physically. Even though mom was in and out of sleep I stayed as I usually do when she's sleeping and tidied up her room, refolded her clothes, took note of what I needed to bring next time in the way of supplies etc. But as I would look over to my mom I couldn't help but feel the end is close. My mind automatically clicked over to the practical- a defense mechanism, I think - and I started to think about what would need to be done to clear out her room. As I was doing this one of my moms usual aides walked in and asked me how I was doing - we stepped out in the hall and I told her I didn't think mom had much time left. This sweet, caring woman put her hand on my arm and said "don't worry, we're taking good care of her". It almost was my complete undoing. And, I know that they are. Not all nursing homes are bad.
Geewiz, i assumed it was the nursing home who sent him. As of recent, my mother is back at a nursing facility due to Alzeimer's and dementia progressing at a very fast rate. I think the meds are to blame for that. She was so far gone from September to March, she could not remember who I was. All of my dad's social security check goes to pay the nursing home. Then, in March, I start giving my mother a product that has helped mom come back from this horrible disease and mom asked why my dad's whole social security check was being used to pay the nursing home if that was money that dad left her. I think it's funny, because she remembered that she had money coming to her from dad's social security and she prefers to go home instead of losing her check to the nursing home. Unfortunately, mom is not well enough yet to go home. She dislikes knowing that she now has no check coming to her and is now aware that she is in a nursing facility. I agree, when we are up in years, we need to pay for the service we will receive, but if mom continues to improve, I will move her back to the house I purchased for her and have a home provider tend to her again and send her to the daycare so she can start socializing again. Her memory is coming back, so I most definitely want to provide her with the best option for her to continue enjoying her last years on this earth. Being in a nursing home is fine for anyone who needs 24 hour care when a person can't care for themselves and they are so far gone that they become a danger to themselves. Mom ended up in the nursing home, because I think her meds were not being given to her like they should and she would end up in the hospital two or three times a month, because she would get dizzy and fall out of her wheelchair. The doctor from the hospital told me that if mom ended up in the hospital one more time then he was going to call Adukt protective services on me. Well, he still called them. Mom had been fine for a little bit, no incidents, but then she got worse and worse and she broke her ankle after dropping on it from her wheel chair and she could not even feel it. She was too far gone that putting her in a nursing facility became inevitable. Hey, I was not going to take her to the hospital and have the doctor on my case again. She totally lost it, had no idea where she was and started in the alziemer's unit, she was too far gone. It is a huge difference right now compared to when she went in and her improvement in the last three months has been major. I think we need to prevent ending up in a nursing home, protect our memory. Mom has no memory of having been in the nursing home since last September. She cannot believe that she has been there 10 months! She has recall only of the last three months. It is scary. She wants her check back...lol She wants to go home. I will try to do what I can.
Nursing homes vary, and people in them who have involved family or friends are most likely to get decent care, though it is true that dental does not always get done so well. They let my mom do her own teeth and did not notice when she quit. I did have to get her to a dentist myself and have some work done, and they did start to help her with that routinely as well. I did her toenails, though they had someone who gave manicures and haircuts. It never smelled bad at all, in fact it was a bit antiseptic for my tastes, but Mom liked that better than the homier one we had tried first.
The "nicer" one that Mom liked was Valley Ranch in West Little Rock, I've heard things may have gone down hill there. The one I liked was Lakewood in North Little Rock on McCain Blvd. - I've decided if I ever need one that's the one I want. Prices were reasonable, they had a therapy cat or two roaming about, people were up and about, and it was pleasantly busy and chatty. I remember one called Southern Nursing Home in Prescott I had occasion to visit a patient in soem years back that was like that too - kinda "low-rent" but nice people and nice atmoshpere, encouraging people to be up and about. Some friends were happy with Chenal Rehab and Chenal Valley both the rehab and skiled nursing sides. We do have several others, some with bad reputations too though. One that I thought was terrible - people getting bad sores, not being turned, unsuitable equipment in use everywhere closed down and reopened with a different name, had no occasion to ever have checked into it again to see if it was any better. You really have to look around and do some impromptu tours of places and be willing to switch if one is a bad fit.
I need to eat 3 pounds of DARK chocolate right away, so that I can digest the horror stories I´ve read about NH. Or better yet, I have a bottle of Chocolate Liqueur in the fridge...........I will BRB = Be Right Back!
I certainly have sympathy for those who want to preserve assets. I have taken steps to do that for myself and my husband. But it's not the government's fault if you end up in a NH. Who is there to blame but God, who according to some, makes all decisions? Maybe it's God's will that all your assets go to the NH or to Medicaid.
Sorry, but if they can quote Bible verses at me, why can't I go all sarcastic once in a while? :)
bettyb21, that sounds like a nice Nursing home indeed! We are entering into the researching senior care facilities stage with our LO, and I only hope to find one as responsible and respectful as you have! We do want the best for our LO!
We are fully prepared that ALL of my FIL'S monies, savings, CD's, pension, and SS will need to go towards his care, and that is fine with us, Nursing care is so expensive, no matter which route you take, and I believe that in these times where family members hope to receive any Inheritance, is fast coming to an end, unless people are prepared to care for their LO in their home until they pass away, which is next to impossible these days as people live longer and longer, or their parents are Rich, or generationally wealthy. We have to expect to pay out All of our monies until they are gone, and then hope for the best, on Medicaid. Hopefully things will improve for us all, as more and more Seniors enter into the Nursing home realm!
as much as I hated to see my mothers savings go to the nursing home, I have to admit that they are taking much better care of her than we could have done.I always said that her money was there to provide for her if she needed care that the family could not deliver. The NH staff is wonderful to her; she has not been in a hospital in over 2 years because they are on top of what is happening to her and when her condition concerns them they call the doctor and get it taken care of. They cater to her food preferences; she is 97 (today) and they planned a little birthday celebration for her. They treat her with dignity and respect--even when she is forgetful or confused. She is confined to her wheelchair or bed and has no bedsores - her skin is perfect. They call me (her healthcare proxy) every time her meds are changed or a doctor or therapist has been in to see her. We were concerned about her blood pressure (it was up and down) and they called me with the readings daily until her medication kicked in and it normalized. They call me with her biweekly weight and we discuss supplements to her diet. I know not all nursing homes are good but this one really cares. She went on Medicaid in April and they normally move the patient to a semi private room. I met with the administrator about this and he told me that due to her age and her declining health he would keep her in a private room as the move would most likely be upsetting to her. I only wish every person in a nursing home could have this type of care.
There are certainly as many opinions as there are NHs. My FIL received excellent care at our county run facility. He went in after an illness and, when he was fully recovered and cognizant made the decision on his own that he'd like to stay if we could find a way to pay for it. Medicaid was his only option after a life time of poor financial decisions. We have no problem with the state recouping their cost for his care.
I think that if nursing home costs were commensurate with the service actually provided (and no, I don't care about their price-of-doing-business-costs like insurance; if they didn't KILL people so often their premiums would be lower!), more people would see the logic of just paying it instead of hiding their assets and going on Medicaid. So, let's look at what they actually provided. doctor's and nurses services and meds are covered by your medical plan, so that's not going to be included. So, we have an SRO with a shared bathroom. That's worth $150 a month. 3 cafeteria-style meals a day (often cold). 30 dollars a day (900 dollars a month), 40 minutes a month of housekeeping (@$20 an hour) so roughly $16. 30 minutes (that's being generous!) of an aide's time a day billed at $25 an hour. $375 a month. Laundry service (if elected) $80 a month. That comes to $1521 a month!!!
When you go on Medicaid, the nursing home is entitled to your ss check, pension, etc. any retirement money on a monthly payout. With that, most residents are paying for what the service is truly worth.
So again, why would anyone in their right mind over-pay for this?? And as for "your" tax money going to pay for someone else's care, the thought that if everyone were paying their own way, the government would NOT take your tax money and squander it in a different way, is naïve. So, there's really no net loss to you.
I think we should ALL figure out how to hide our assets. After what I have seen and experienced firsthand, nursing homes are worse then prisons. There was a meme that came out a few years ago comparing nursing homes with prisons and concluding that we should put the sick and elderly in prisons and murderers and rapists in nursing homes.
And if you have a great nursing home that's clean, that's showering your loved one and brushing their teeth, that's NOT union, where the person is treated better than an animal, private mail me the name of it and the city. I'll move my mother there.
Here's a GREAT reason you don't want to pay for nursing home care yourself: even the good ones are understaffed. Your loved one's teeth will never be brushed, let alone flossed. God help the person if they can't speak for themselves, they will be abused and the nursing home will get away with covering it up. If you're in diapers, you will spend hours on end sitting in your own waste before they get to you (see: understaffed, above). The care you receive from people who just don't care, are overworked and underpaid, will be *rough. Often, the food is horrible. These places smell, I mean, really smell. The dignity you used to have, gone. Even the "good" ones. And if you complain, there will be retribution. I have a friend whose mom was neglected because of retaliation. Her mother's privates were covered with sores and after she fought and fought and fought to get her sent to the hospital for *real medical care, she died of a massive infection. In NY, it costs $12,000 a month to live in a nursing home. Why would anyone in their right mind come out of pocket for this?? I'm 43 and I hope to not LIVE long enough to need NH care after what I've seen. I have no heirs, no one to leave my assets to, and you can bet that if that day comes, I'm hiding EVERY BIT of my money and going on Medicaid and hopefully pay nothing if I do it right, because that's what this care is worth, NOTHING. Let my (over-)tax(ed) money cover it!
We are self-insured for the expensive costs of the "golden years." Health care costs for myself and for my loved one doesn't cost me anything. I simply take it out of our children's future inheritance.
It sounds like you need to read up on the basic rules on how to pay for the nursing home, what are exempt assets and what are not, what the state can take after the nursing home resident on Medicaid passes away, and what are the planning options available to you. That is exactly what my book is about, and I encourage you to get a copy for yourself. It is called "How to Protect Your Family's Assets from Devastating Nursing Home Costs: Medicaid Secrets".
There is also good, free advice on this website, including a number of articles I have written. I encourage you to begin your reading!
As for whether you should use your own money to pay for the nursing home or avail yourself of Medicaid, that is a personal decision. As for me, I never want to pay voluntarily more tax than is legally required, so you probably do not want to pay more to the nursing home than legally required, either, but that is up to you.
There is so much misinformation and; my experience is that people tell you a story that will make you sympathetic to their situation; not necessarily facts. Neither nursing homes or the government 'take' anything from you. If tax money paid for your nursing home/home care once you pass away the state has right of recovery. The estate sells the assets off and, repay the state for funds paid on your behalf. The state gets their money back before heirs get anything. It has the same net effect as if you sold the assets while they were alive and used the money for their care.
Primardie, who was this man?? A scam artist? A salesman? And a point of clarification -- nursing homes don't take away the property after a resident passes IF the resident paid their own way in the nursing home. For those unable to pay their own way, Medicaid is a safety net. Medicaid comes from citizens' taxes. So, I am with the early posters on this question, everyone pays his/her own way and Medicaid is a safety net for the indigent. And, for those who are shocked by the cost of nursing homes, please consider assisted living. In my area, it is half the cost of a nursing home and (in general) a more pleasant environment. I had placed my Mom, MIL and aunt in assisted living facilities. They were all able to do private pay. Two are gone, MIL is still in one. YES, it was mind boggling paying $7000/month for end of life care. Then I deducted whatever they would have paid for their previous living expenses --- rent or property taxes, food, insurance, cable, utilities and realized it wasn't so-o much. And one more thought, personally, I would easily prefer to do private pay when my time comes and to have a choice of facilities. The private pay places in my area are head and shoulders above those that take medicaid!
I care for my mother and I purchased a home under my name where she could live comfortably. I unknowingly one day was over to visit when I found a man sitting with my mother at the dining room. I stood there listening, "and you have had this house in the family for how long?" He asked. What he did not know is that I had purchased the house and it was in my name and he had mom answering questions and my mother already showed signs of dementia and Alzeimer's. I interrupted and told him that the house had never belonged to my mother and I, her daughter, had purchased it. He had already asked her numerous questions and he closed his tablet after I told him it had not been in the family. This worried me. I found out the same thing, that if a person has property under his/her name, the property is taken away after the person passes away, only if, the person has not transferred it or sold it within five years of being placed in a nursing home. I had no idea that this even happened. When I saw the man asking my mother, a person who could barely remember my name, questions about property ownership, that bothered me, but I understand too that they have to get paid somehow.
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And so talking with an Elder Law attorney, even if you think you can't afford it, would be the prudent choice when you really think about it.
The "nicer" one that Mom liked was Valley Ranch in West Little Rock, I've heard things may have gone down hill there. The one I liked was Lakewood in North Little Rock on McCain Blvd. - I've decided if I ever need one that's the one I want. Prices were reasonable, they had a therapy cat or two roaming about, people were up and about, and it was pleasantly busy and chatty. I remember one called Southern Nursing Home in Prescott I had occasion to visit a patient in soem years back that was like that too - kinda "low-rent" but nice people and nice atmoshpere, encouraging people to be up and about. Some friends were happy with Chenal Rehab and Chenal Valley both the rehab and skiled nursing sides. We do have several others, some with bad reputations too though. One that I thought was terrible - people getting bad sores, not being turned, unsuitable equipment in use everywhere closed down and reopened with a different name, had no occasion to ever have checked into it again to see if it was any better. You really have to look around and do some impromptu tours of places and be willing to switch if one is a bad fit.
Hick!
M 8 8
Sorry, but if they can quote Bible verses at me, why can't I go all sarcastic once in a while? :)
We are fully prepared that ALL of my FIL'S monies, savings, CD's, pension, and SS will need to go towards his care, and that is fine with us, Nursing care is so expensive, no matter which route you take, and I believe that in these times where family members hope to receive any Inheritance, is fast coming to an end, unless people are prepared to care for their LO in their home until they pass away, which is next to impossible these days as people live longer and longer, or their parents are Rich, or generationally wealthy. We have to expect to pay out All of our monies until they are gone, and then hope for the best, on Medicaid. Hopefully things will improve for us all, as more and more Seniors enter into the Nursing home realm!
When you go on Medicaid, the nursing home is entitled to your ss check, pension, etc. any retirement money on a monthly payout. With that, most residents are paying for what the service is truly worth.
So again, why would anyone in their right mind over-pay for this?? And as for "your" tax money going to pay for someone else's care, the thought that if everyone were paying their own way, the government would NOT take your tax money and squander it in a different way, is naïve. So, there's really no net loss to you.
I think we should ALL figure out how to hide our assets. After what I have seen and experienced firsthand, nursing homes are worse then prisons. There was a meme that came out a few years ago comparing nursing homes with prisons and concluding that we should put the sick and elderly in prisons and murderers and rapists in nursing homes.
And if you have a great nursing home that's clean, that's showering your loved one and brushing their teeth, that's NOT union, where the person is treated better than an animal, private mail me the name of it and the city. I'll move my mother there.
There is also good, free advice on this website, including a number of articles I have written. I encourage you to begin your reading!
As for whether you should use your own money to pay for the nursing home or avail yourself of Medicaid, that is a personal decision. As for me, I never want to pay voluntarily more tax than is legally required, so you probably do not want to pay more to the nursing home than legally required, either, but that is up to you.
YES, it was mind boggling paying $7000/month for end of life care. Then I deducted whatever they would have paid for their previous living expenses --- rent or property taxes, food, insurance, cable, utilities and realized it wasn't so-o much. And one more thought, personally, I would easily prefer to do private pay when my time comes and to have a choice of facilities. The private pay places in my area are head and shoulders above those that take medicaid!