How to answer my Father's question 'do you call this LIVING?

You answered him perfectly. It will be up to him to make a new life for himself if he is as independent as you say and wants to remain that way.... perfect answer.

D, your profile doesn't say anything about your dad's impairments. If he doesn't need CARE or ASSISTANCE, perhaps he would be better off in Independent Living or even a Senior Apartment. I would try to analyze what his actual needs are before making a move.

When we realized that my mom couldn't live alone anymore, we thought that AL (assisted living ) was the answer. It was more than mom needed at the time, and the wrong kind of assistance.

Does your dad need assistance in remembering to take his meds( AL can assist with this), help with showering (again, AL). Or does he just need to be somewhere where there are folks around for socialization, meals prepared and served?

What restrictions is he chafing at? ALs are not prisons and in most of them, one can come and go as they please. What is it that would make it "living" in your dad's eyes?

Thx Babalou,

Well really right now he is ready for independent living in an apt in a senior community. He needs to have someone else cook his food. One where there are others approx. his age. He could still have a car assuming he could still be good enough to drive.

I recently dispelled his notion that he would be eligible for his LTC to pay for 'assisted living' if he declared that living in his house was 'too much'. In reality he would have to have his LTC care giver see if he could not do 2 of the ADL's to trigger the LTC. He can do all the ADLs.

But even in a senior living community, there are many similarities to assisted living. There are the meals, the communities activities and sleep, get up and do it all again. True the independent community activities can involve a bus and going places. True many people would have a car.

Life is what you make it, and that includes living life with restrictions.

The loss of the car would have a huge impact on his psyche.

Understandably living in increasingly assisted living situations, with a nursing home at the final stop, is very upsetting to him.

I do not know where I am going with this. I feel like I need to come up with some answers he can accept and hold on to.

Thx!
Dave

Dave, I'm curious why you OR your father thinks that it's your job to come up with these answers. That's just something for you to chew on.

Can your dad pinpoint for himself what would be missing from his life if he moved to a Senior Community?

I would also suggest a book for you both. On Being Motsl, by Atul Gawande.

What is it he does at home that he feels he would have to give up in assistive living? "They get up in the morning, eat, go to an activity, then go to lunch, then go to an activity, then eat, then go to an evening movie, then they sleep" sounds like a pretty typical day for many retired people, in fact most living independently don't even get to have the afternoon activity!
I would compare assistive living to a buffet, there is house keeping, meals, laundry service, social contact and group activities and more if he chooses to take advantage of them. But if he lets staff know his preferences he can still veg in his room or sleep until noon if that is his style. Often they can keep a little fridge in the room for beverages, snacks and light meals, and when he wants to spend a night out on the town all he needs to do is let someone know so they won't be worried about him. And someone WILL be worried about him if he breaks his normal routines, that is one of the advantages!

On Being Mortal. Where is autocorrect when you need it?

Dave, another thought. Has your dad ever been evaluated for depression ?

My mom is in independent living and tells me almost every visit how much she loves it. She's very independent, so her big thing is, "They leave me alone." My mom doesn't do any activities at 95. She's happy to stay in her room and read and work her puzzles and watch TV. She can come or go as she pleases. She's lived there for 13 years.

The only thing that didn't work for my mom is that she doesn't get dressed most days, so going down to meals wasn't working for her. So we get a break of $150/month and I bring mom her food and she fixes it in her microwave. She also has a fridge. But I can take her out (she no longer drives) or she could call a taxi or a friend could take her somewhere. So there's a lot of freedom to do what you want to do.

I agree with Cwillie. What does your dad feel like he's giving up by moving to independent living?

It may be that what he's actually giving up isn't concrete, and there's no clear way to express it.
Giving up the dream you hold onto, even though a part of you knows it's unrealistic.
Not being able to stay in your home with all that, that means.
Knowing once and for all, finally facing the fact that you are old, past it.
You've got more past than future.
Just a thought because this is my thoughts at 58 yrs as I face this for myself & widowed BIL

Hi All, thx for your responses!

Why do I feel pressure to answer 'do you call that LIVING?'. I feel the need to facilitate his understanding and adjustment for the next step which is coming up. It's a grand 'reframing' that he needs to do. And he needs to accept changes and come to terms with restrictions and exercise his options within those restrictions. The single biggest adjustment would be not to drive which will eventually come to pass. Not driving = loss of freedom. Add that to living in a community that paths from independence to more and more assistance will be a big adjustment. Add to that new surroundings where he could keep only a fraction of his 'stuff', his belongings. I feel the need to help answer his questions in advance to give the adjustment up ahead more time for him to come to terms with it. As I said he is very independent and has been a very vital and active man and he theoretically could come up with his own solution and do an end-a-round to living with restrictions.

I figured out the 'On Being Mortal' when I first read your entry! Thank you! I read an extended summary of the book and got the point about how exercising our concern for their safety can kill their inner need for autonomy. A powerful point. Maybe I will get the book.

Specifically what could he do in a senior community, independent or assisted? I will add to what I said in the beginning of this thread that he could do volunteer work, he might need to arrange someone to pick him up and drop him off, or they might have volunteer work at the community that he would enjoy and do. n addition myself and my sister would take him out for meals and events. I already said:

-it would be up to him to make friends
-decide what activities he would or would not do.
-He could have his friends pick him up and drive him to other activities.
-He could take a taxi to events.-He could email and use the phone to connect. -He could use the internet.

Feel free to mention any other points for Independent living and assisted living...

And I much like the point about community living offers a buffet of activities and services that he can pick and choose from.

Much thx!

In the book (On Being Mortal) a woman asks her dad what he always wants to be able to do, or it wouldn't be worth living. He replies he wants to be able to eat ice cream and watch football on TV. Not, admittedly, that not a full active life. But she wanted to know, if there were a choice that SHE ever had to make for him, what his bottom line was. It turned out that it was very useful information when his surgery took an unexpected turn.

These are hard coversations to have. Wishing you well.

I'll offer some support rather for the concept of why AL or IL isn't the same as being in one's own home, so perhaps some insight can be gained why someone makes the statement your father has made.

My father has always been active and still goes out to his workshop even if he can only work for a short time. He walks down to the lake, stopping to visit younger neighbors, some of whom invite him for dinner or bring him food after they become acquainted. He walks to the house of a neighbor who's always doing some remodeling or building, and offers advice on his experiences, particularly since he owned that house before it was eventually sold. He visits with other neighbors who have young children.

He's in a community with a range of families from those just starting out to others in their 70's. He's not with people his age all day, nor does he want to be. He wants to know families who represent the future. He doesn't want to be with older people, especially ones who are focused on their ill health.

If he were in AL or IL he'd have no workshop to go to, no neighbors who've lived in the area for decades to visit, no young children to greet, no remodeling projects on which to advise. He couldn't go to his workshop and rearrange his tools or start a new project.

He plans his own activities and will never ever be able to finish everything he plans. BUT, and this is the major factor, he can still plan. In AL or IL there would be no need to plan unless he finds a place that has a woodshop. They don't offer the same hope that many people need.

I have a friend who feels the same way, as do my cousin and I. If we can't do the things we want, and that means what WE want, not planned activities, then what's the point of trying to adapt to an environment we know we'd hate?

GardenArtist, you have so beautifully summed up what I was trying to say in my prev post :~)
Davidas ~ I think your Father was very brave to ask you that question, hard though it is.
There comes a point in time for some people when "life" is no longer living, but merely existing through the days.
To the outside world the perception is that all is well. We have food & shelter, we're looked after medically and we are with people who are in the same boat. What could be better for us? Ask our caring loved ones, desperate to keep us here and wanting us to be happy.
The slogan of a local Children's Hospice sums it up for me "What is important is not the days in our life, but the life in our days."
It must be the quality of our days, not the quantity that counts. It's hard (on both sides) to say goodbye to loved ones. But it's hard to, to exist where once you lived.
Before people misunderstand and think I'm against AL or IL I'm absolutely not. They have their place and thank goodness for them. But the same shoe does not fit every foot no matter the style.
To all who are faced with this kind of decision from either side you have my understanding and my empathy.
I am trying to find the right place for my BIL at the same time knowing my own days of independent living in my own home with my 4 adorable/adored cats is very limited and at 58 I could have a long time yet of filling in the days.

When we age, our chidren tend to make us feel like their years of hard work has ended in being baby sat. Tell him you support him and drop it. I do know how you feel- but allow him to age with grace until he is not able. Love him, vidit, take him meals- and when its time you will know.

Lucy, the quote " "What is important is not the days in our life, but the life in our days." sums it all up. That's the way I feel as well.

Thank you all for your thoughtful input. I could see how I would feel and thus how he would feel. I will not even subtly try to persuade him to move, but support him. IL and AL will come up in conversation, but I will let it drop when he lets it drop. He is very smart and will contemplate changes himself and should not be prompted by others. Yes he has been very involved in the community and still is involved in two volunteer areas. And he needs to putter around his garden and walk to his neighbors. And get in his car and see various people. Loss of driving the car will be a huge one for him. Also I read the summary of On Being Mortal and the idea of moving into a facility that might be his 'last could would be quite terrifying'. And to be aware that our need to have them safe could be in opposition to their need for autonomy. In contemplating this about my dad, I am also contemplating my own situation, just further down the road for me. Thank you GardenArtist, BabaLou, Nana2Nany, and LucyCW!

So glad my comments helped :~)
Be thankful you're a way off from this decision about you, it's a horrible step to contemplate. However gilded & bejewelled a cage might be, it's still a cage.
Also, I understand the desire for a loved one's safety.
I'd loved to have wrapped children I brought up in cotton wool & bubble wrap with a 1' exclusion zone around them.
But then they'd never have ridden bicycles and skinned knees falling off, played conkers and bruised their knuckles, needed my hugs when the monster under the bed came to close, or my loving reassurance that they were wonderful, when they went through first heartbreaks. Ext :~) Smothered, not Mothered :~(
I think you found a good place of thinking for you both and I wish you all the very best.

"It's better than the alternative, pops."

Everything is patterned in our lives. Don't pick up what he's puttin' down, poster. It's not your 'fault' he's had a wonderful long life. ;)

My in-law's independent living building offers ways for residents to volunteer with the meals committee, social committee, religious services, a resident newsletter, and lots more. Then there are all the groups - music group, opera group, book club, current events group. Some of the residents have gotten to know one another so well that they've gone on cruises together. Living in their building reminds me of scenes from the movie Cocoon (1985).

It seems at this point that the prospect of moving to an independent or assisted living facility is rather abstract for both of you. I would suggest you involve him in the visiting and selection process. The sales personnel are very good at making what they have to offer appealing. In talking with them, you can steer some of the conversation in the direction of the things your father likes to do. He'll have a much more positive attitude if he feels his needs will be met without the hassle of living at home.

I'm curious. Why must people only hang out with "people their own age?" I have friends at all adult ages, from 20s to 90s. Maybe it helps that I'm an artist, I don't know.

PCVS, I agree completely. I'd rather be with people of like interests than people of my own age, especially if they're complainers or whiners. I benefit from mental stimulation, not listening to complaints about cholesterol levels.

And I get so tired of the blanket characterizations of people who are older. Consider some of the people who are, and are still viable individuals. I think of Henry Kissinger, for one. I watched one of the Munk debates a few years ago in which Kissinger participated - he's still insightful, analytical and has a brilliant mind.

I'll bet Kissinger doesn't spend his spare time playing bingo.

But look at Trump, who's much younger and doesn't seem to be capable of saying anything intelligent.

I think your artistic background does make a difference; you probably seek others who have a similarly creative outlook. Artists and creative people see in life and its challenges ideas that aren't always available to someone more focused on narrower issues.

That's not to criticize anyone who's old, as I apparently am based on physical age, but unless we have dementia, we can each define and pursue our own outlooks.

Dave,
You've gotten a lot of good advice here. I don’t have much to add, but feel compelled to say something because I currently care for my 91-year-old Dad with severe dementia. I brought him to my home just over a year ago when he could no longer live alone and home aides could no longer cope. We had to hide the car keys around the age of 88 but by then we had already removed all of the “reasons” for him to need to drive, so he didn’t even notice. My Mom is no longer alive but I have a vivid recollection of when she wanted to move into 55+ living decades ago and all my Dad would say after visiting a site was, “That’s the nicest nursing home I’ve ever seen!” so I get where your Dad is coming from!

You are blessed to have your Dad still able to recognize the limitations of growing older as evidenced by those around him. But he sounds vibrant, mobile and alert and there are many people with good genes like his who live several years longer at a relatively high level of functioning, so I understand him not wanting to “give in” to the more sedentary lifestyle he finds in senior living. The good news is that senior living is not a nursing home—for that he can be thankful and a friendly reminder of the difference may be warranted.

Regardless, it sounds like you and your sister live somewhat nearby to your father. Nice. If I were in your position, my sister and I would sit down with your Dad at his home, arranged by explaining you’ve been thinking more about what he meant when he said, “Do you call this living?” and you want to talk about it. While there, get out a piece of paper and tell him you want to hear what it is he’d like to be able to do in the next 10 years so he would feel like he was “living”. Tell him you’re going to sit with him for however long it takes to hear what he would like to say about what it means to be truly “living”. After he brainstorms (you can put on his favorite music softly in the background!) and you write down (i.e. acknowledge) all of that, start a 2nd sheet of paper and ask him, “What do you think you’ll need help with over the next 10 years in order to live the way you want to live out the rest of your life?” and write out those points. If he asks why you are writing everything down you'll tell him "because what he is saying is really important to you and you don't want to forget anything he tells you." Next sheet of paper: “What can Sis and I do to help you live the way you want to live for the next 10 years?” Next question doesn’t need paper: “If you could live anywhere, can you say where it is you would you want to live?” If the answer is no, I would say “Where should we start looking together?” If his answer is yes and he tells you where he wants to live, pull out sheet #2 (what he would need help with) and re-visit point by point whether where it is he would like to live will also provide the items on sheet #2 (Meals on Wheels or on-site restaurant? Home Aides or alternative?) and if not, talk through how to solve those issues.

The goal here is to get your Dad to verbalize everything that’s spinning around in his head at this pivotal stage of his life, get it all out on paper, and provide some foundation and point of reference for moving forward. The fact that he can still think through these issues is a treasure, and you will cherish your role in partnering with him at this time in his life.
,

Practical, you have some good suggestions on discerning the difference between the various alternatives for Devidas' father. I would only add that sometimes people don't think of everything at one time, so the process of the father's analysis might be more over a period of days or weeks.

Devidas could create the categories you suggested, and leave the answer sheets on a clipboard for his father to jot down thoughts as they arise.

I know that in our discussions, most of these kinds of questions require some thought and aren't always addressed in that one Q & A session.

Your dad has to make the effort to make new friends. Was he a people person in his younger years? Is he skilled enough to use the internet? Does he like to read the newspaper, mags and books?

Practical ~ thank you!
I'm looking into options for my BIL who has dementia (variable stages at the moment) & myself, no dementia (as yet) but severe health issues.
This is a great idea, modified for him and spot on for me!

PCVS & GardenArtist, agree with you both that mixing with all ages and both gender is good for "older" people. I'm 58, though my body/mind are both functioning at a good 10+ years older and I enjoy being with Brownies and Elderly + people in the middle. I agree arty/craft people often socialise more with all ages.
That said late Nanna at 86 "loved people" and thoroughly enjoyed talking to everyone, while Grandpa at 94 liked no more than 2 people at a time regardless of age.
I hate the idea of being stuck somewhere with a lot of old people, no matter how great the surroundings. I still want to hear children's laughter, young people's dreams of their future, exhausted mum's complaining of babies, & crying as their littles start school ext. The whole breadth & scope of life please.

I would tell your dad he is lucky to afford assisted living . My mom worked all her life and falls in crack for medicaid unless goes to nursing home. I sm 63 no family and she gets around 1000 mth for ensure depends, etc. I hate idea of nursing home but going on my 3 rd yr of this alone and going insane started anti depressants couldn't tske due to diarrhea. Had to increase my bp meds fuel to stress. Have had heart stent in past. Your dad is lucky

THank you PracticalFocus, LucyCW.. Very good thoughts, will try some of them.

And yes Llamalover he uses the internet a lot and is much involved in the community, and he reads a decent amount. He also volunteers in two ways in the community.

Yes NiceNurse he is fortunate to have options. Take care of yourself please, sending good thoughts your way with taking care of your mom like you are doing.

I am glad he reads and uses the internet.