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EN, if she has a meltdown in her apartment tonight, you call 911.

No other action is warranted. If she's going to have panic attacks, she needs a higher level of care. The hospital can ascertain that.

Not your job.
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EN, if the noise is bothersome for her, a white noise machine will deal with that.

I guess the tough walk to her apartment will keep her at home or make her a bit stronger.

She will have something to say about everything, so learning to grey rock is going to be beneficial for you.

Best of luck, this started as a no win situation, that couldn't be helped, you couldn't leave her with no services available, and it will end that way. Coming to terms with that now will help you and your mom not feel bad when she has meltdowns.
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Dear EN, BarbB has suggested that you seek therapy yourself in this situation. I’m sure we all hope that you have ‘fixed it’, but that isn’t the track record. You NEED to protect yourself. And it probably does need more understanding about why it all happened.

Perhaps going again through this long long thread from the beginning might help you to get a handle on your own thought processes. It could stand you in good stead for the future.

Why didn’t you find out more about the suicide? Why make up your own mind about what ‘had to happen’. Not get more information from your cousins? Not take the comments on the site more seriously?

Why did you feel you ‘had to’ step in immediately, not let things settle down? Why feel forced to take responsibility? Why be so sure that it would work out the way you imagined it?

This is not an attempt to blame, or to make you feel bad. But the whole situation has been (and continues to be) so awful, step after step, that it really is worthwhile trying to understand how and why you went through it.

This is a suggestion for self-therapy, if you don’t like the idea of a therapist (or can’t find the time or the money). If you do try therapy, it would be a good place to start from.

You are a good, good person. Don’t let it hurt you! Love, Margaret
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EmotionallyNumb May 2022
I probably havent shared with you that I am a therapist and a clinical social worker. How was I supposed to find out more about the suicide when I didnt know it was a suicide? Cousins initially lied about the manner of death, they also asked to have my mom call their mom and did not tell us they weren't speaking to their mom. Once I took my mom to visit aunt for several days is when we found out all the other info. It then became a safety issue that aunt needed a way to get groceries and meds delivered as she cant drive, her husband did all the driving. She also lived in a very rural area that does not have food and grocery delivery. She rarely left her home home in the last 30 years and has no friends to lean on.

I did not take the reins, I have only been trying to help her get to a safe place to live and now she is.
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So how did she handle being dropped off tonight?
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EmotionallyNumb May 2022
Better than I thought she would. Before I woke up today she was trying to my mom into staying at our house tonight, she'll try to get my mom to agree to something before asking me. I just explained she needed to there tonight because the cable guy is coming tomorrow and i can't spend my lunchtime taking her over there. She looked sad but didnt argue. We went to the apartment, set up a few things for her, hugged her and left.
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"I am not a nursing home".

EN, Very Well Said!
🌞🌞🌞

Add to the Aging Care collection favs;
I am not your maid.
I am not a restaurant.
This is not a cruise ship.
😆
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EN your post answer 5 minutes ago says “Every time I tell my mom I'm going to have it out with aunt, she begs me not to”. Your mother and you are both caught up in a toxic situation which is bad for both of you. It seems to have been in place for decades. Your priorities should be you, and your mother. Your aunt is well into 3rd or 4th place – probably behind nieces or nephews who are still young enough to need help. You don’t want yourself or your mother to go through the dramas that it seems your aunt may well have put your uncle through.

Don’t “tell my mom I'm going to have it out with aunt”. Just do it. Even better, just act it. Get out of the toxicity, with no discussions, no excuses, no explanations, no regrets.

And please consider my suggestion about going through the whole thread and asking yourself ‘why?’.
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"Every time I tell my mom I'm going to have it out with aunt, she begs me not to. She ays this is still her sister and that she loves and this is a bad time for her. My mom handicaps what i8 am able to do and not do and my aunt will try to manipulate my mom. Same pattern they've had their whole lives."

EN, were you aware of that pattern when you decided that you couldn't leave your aunt to manage alone where she was?

I really hope you weren't. I hope this history has emerged from recent conversations, and that at the critical time you didn't appreciate what a risk your aunt poses to your mother's wellbeing.

Having it out with aunt, even aside from your mother's fears, would be an exercise in futility. You can have it out with her every day until Kingdom Come and she will continue to ignore and undermine boundaries. Don't waste your breath.

Don't have it out with aunt, and don't involve your mother in developing ways to restrict aunt's demands. Look at the situation in practical, day-to-day terms and make decisions for yourself and mother about what access aunt is allowed to your and mother's lives.

OTHER PEOPLE can support your aunt. I deeply regret that she has moved to your town, but now that she's there you need to find a way to limit her impact.
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EmotionallyNumb May 2022
I was aware that my mom didnt like my aunt but not that aunt sucks the life force out of every one around her. I never 'decided' I couldn't leave her where her where she was, I never invited her into my home or my town. I took my mom up to stay with her for a couple days and suddenly aunt could never be alone again, then she couldnt stay in her house or her town. I have been very careful not to make decisions for her or tell her what to do, I get more than enough of that from my mom.
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I'm sure you're extremely careful to respect aunt's autonomy and not make decisions for her. That isn't quite the point.

From April 27th: "I will not let her live with me but I could help her find an apartment in a place that has services to meet her needs."

Well indeed, and help you did, in spades. Here she is in your town, all accomplished in one month.

So she is making the decisions and to date at least you have very efficiently facilitated them. I'm not sure that that isn't *worse*!!! And I'll bet you anything you like it won't stop aunt alleging that you "made her" do it.

You have rescued a scorpion. A poor squashed little scorpion having a cruelly rough time, granted, but nonetheless a scorpion.

Would your professional network include people who can take her on as a client? She is going to need a lot of support in the coming months, and it mustn't come from you.
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EmotionallyNumb May 2022
Yes, I referred her for therapy and found a grief group she could join. She has a list of places that provide transportation.
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"Having it out" with Aunt serves no purpose. She's in her apartment now and stays there. She is not invited to stay at your home. Period.

It seems to me that you need to tell your MOM that you are in charge of who you invite to stay.
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EmotionallyNumb May 2022
I think what aunt will try to do now is call all the time trying to get someone to come over and 'help' her with something. Or run frequent errands for her.
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EN, if aunt is going to call and ask for help, then you are going to need to say "no" frequently, not answer when you are at work, give her the number of a local handyman, get her hooked up with a Social Worker from the local AAA for case management and needs assessment .
This is called having boundaries.

"No, I can't possibly do that".
"You'll have to make other arrangements."
"You need to hire help for that."

Townsend and Cloud wrote a wonderful book called Boundaries. Read it.
She is not on your caseload.
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Countrymouse May 2022
Sorry, didn't realize you'd already said that!
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I'm glad you've found her therapy and a support group, but what I actually had in mind was a social worker. Someone who'll be a Rock of Adamant when it comes to aunt's doing things for herself (with appropriate signposting and support).
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EmotionallyNumb May 2022
I can lead the horse to water but I cannot make it drink. She has the information to contact the county if she wishes. She would like me to call the county and get her everything under the sun but she is capable of doing that herself. I tried to do it when she was at her home and she told the person she didn't need an appointment when they called.
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EN, I have a friend who is also a therapist. She told me that therapists do need to have regular therapy for themselves. The reasons are to unload their mental burden that they get from clients, and to keep a professional perspective separate from their own issues.

EB, do you see a therapist regularly? I realized that aunt isn't a client and thus not a work issue. However, you keep taking on her problems as your own, and you have a hard time setting boundaries and saying no. What would you advise yourself as a client? What would your therapist advise you?
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EmotionallyNumb Jun 2022
Given the current circumstances, this may sound laughable but I don't have issues with boundaries with clients. I am also a different sort of therapist, I don't do the weekly long-term sort of therapy. I meet with clients once to do assessments and recommendations, then I refer them on to other services. I only take on very short term clients in rare circumstances when I have safety concerns about them to be a bridge until they can get in with another provider.

This aunt is one of only about three people in the world that I could get into this situation with and that is mainly because of her relationship with my mom. Would I help other family members if they were in this situation? Yes, but not to this extent.
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No good deed goes unpunished. I have a feeling if it wasn't for Mom you would never even been aware of Aunts situation. There would have been no reason for cousins to expect you to care for Mom. Its really hard not to show some compassion but with people like ur Aunt you really need to put that Wall up. Mom needs to realize, if she hasn't already, that you are not responsible for your Aunt. And that Mom can't be because she is limited in what she can do.

Not sure if I have already said this but one of the things said in the book Boundries mentioned is "when you say NO, you are not responsible for the reaction you receive". I think its a good thing to, again, have a little talk with Aunt without Mom present. I would first ask her why she seems to be targeting you, especially when she has siblings. Tell her that you realize that she has had alot happen to her and you sympathize with that but...she cannot depend on you. You have a job and Mom, thats is quite enough on your plate. Mom can't help her because she as her own limitations. She must take advantage of what is offered to her. She must ask help from her siblings. Tell her she needs to stop going thru your Mom to guilt you into helping. If she finds she cannot be on her own, then she has to make the decision to go into an AL where her needs will be met. But she is wrong if she thinks you and Mom are the answer, your not. If she continues to think that whining and crying will get her into your home, she is wrong. Ain't going to happen. What will happen if she continues to whine and cry will be that you block all contact.

Don't you wish now you had called APS, claimed she was a vulnerable Senior and gave them her children's phone numbers.
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EmotionallyNumb Jun 2022
APS already had multiple reports on her and did not do anything. The police had made one, her kids made one, I called and talked to the intake worker when I tried to arrange an appointment for PCA assessment.

You're right, I wouldn't be involved if it wasn't for my mom.
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EN, you haven't mentioned any call from aunt since she went to stay in her own apartment last night. Has it been quiet? If so, that's good that you have a break from her.
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EmotionallyNumb Jun 2022
I've talked to her on the phone each day. She's depressed of course. We are going to get some take out and go over tomorrow evening for a little while. I'm going to show her how to pay her rent online and order groceries.
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Tearing my hair out, here.

"I tried to do it [call the county] when she was at her home and she told the person she didn't need an appointment when they called."

And, respecting her right to make decisions for herself, you took her word for it and left it at that.

Oh wait! No, you respected her right to decide she'd rather move to the town where you live instead and brought her home with you.

I'd say she's done a pretty impressive job of making her horse drink so far.

If she starts making noises about wanting to go back to her house, for goodness sake TAKE HER, call the county to report her situation, and run like the wind.
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EmotionallyNumb Jun 2022
LOL, I hear you. I figured she will call when she's ready.
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"We are going to get some take out and go over tomorrow evening for a little while. I'm going to show her how to pay her rent online and order groceries."

You'll have to let us know how this goes.
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Sorry, but really you think you are going to be able to teach an 88 yr old how to pay her rent on line and order groceries? Does she know how to use a computer and apps? She doesn't like someone who does. I have a 75 yr old husband who won't do that. He thought an app was a computer program. I had to explain to him that our 13 yr old laptop was obsolete. There no longer are hard drives. Everything is saved to apps or places like the cloud. Then my daughter told him she can no longer pay for a disk and download Adobe she uses for graphics. You go to a sight and pay a monthly fee to use the program. His brother is an IT guy and my DH has no interest in using computers. Because he is almost deaf, he does not have a cell. He will pay his bills by check till he dies.
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CTTN55 Jun 2022
Good points. I don't remember -- how was Auntie getting groceries when she lived in the rural area? How computer-literate is she?

And if the online grocery ordering and paying rent online doesn't work, then what happens? Can any of her siblings handle this for her? What HAVE they offered to do for her? Has she even asked them?
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It sounds to me like the Aunt's husband did everything--drove, paid bills, maintained the home.

I wonder if HE was pushing for a move to a more manageable place?
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EmotionallyNumb Jun 2022
He had recently told her they could only afford to stay in their house for 2 more years, she was quite upset initially when she found out.
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How did takeout and the online grocery ordering/rent paying lessons go?
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EmotionallyNumb Jun 2022
A gigantic pain in the @$$. Pardon my French but I cant freaking stand her. She can surf the net just fine but acts like a frightened 5 year old on her first day of school if its learning something that could be useful.
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What ARE the alternatives for someone living alone, needing assistance with activities of daily living but can't afford $,$$$s per month for a private AL?

There must be so many people in this situation: family too far/family can't do/estranged or without any family.

Here we have a 'package' from the Gov't. This is needs assessed (good) but can be up to a 2 yr waitlist (not good) so many have to privately fund first. May cover things like grocery assistance, fortnightly housecleaning, maybe some garden maintenance.

Of course, globally I am sure there are people that look for such help & services & people that shun it. People probably shun for different reasons: strongly independant, possibly too proud, lack of insight they need help, fear of strangers, bad previous experiences. Maybe feel entitled to service provided by younger family members. Or even just that 'others' must look after them - maybe stemmed from never living alone or being a 'bread-winner'.

Many older women only left their parents home to marry after all.

I've met many older women who started married life doing the the weekly shopping but the shop accounts, utilities & bills were all paid once a month/quarter by their husbands. Yet as widows learnt to sign cheques, read bank statements, then learnt ATMs & now electronic banking.

But there are also people that *learned helpnessness*. This got others to do things for them.
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EmotionallyNumb Jun 2022
She can get things delivered and get transportation, it will be more expensive but this is what millions of people do every day. She can navigate the internet, stalk people on facebook. She'll learn, she has to and if she doesn't then she'll have to go to a nursing home.
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"She can surf the net just fine but acts like a frightened 5 year old on her first day of school if its learning something that could be useful."

So the lessons on online grocery-ordering and rent-paying didn't go so well.

What's going to happen when she's out of groceries and her rent is due? You wrote that she can just go to a nursing home, but you know that isn't going to happen yet.
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EmotionallyNumb Jun 2022
She takes Ativan for anxiety and I think she's been taking more than usual, she seems a little spacey. We discussed her getting on an antidepressant then when she went to the doctor she didnt even mention it. I took her the final stuff she needed to send into the life insurance company and then she couldnt find the form from the company to send with and saying she had given them to me and I never took them.
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EN, if she doesn't want to learn how to order groceries, which doesn't surprise me. Who wants to let a little old lady starve? Very handy manipulation tool. Get her set up with mobil meals or MOW. Maybe something like hello fresh would be more to her liking but depending on you isn't one of her options.

Find the cheapest cab company and post the number, that way she isn't left without transportation and she might be motivated to get set up with paratransit after paying for a few cab rides. In my city, the paratransit has contracts with a cab company and you can prepay for cheaper cab fare, like $6 a ride. One thing I don't know if anybody mentioned, to have access to the paratransit requires an application from the department of transportation and can take up to 8 weeks to get your card, so she will need a different option until that goes through.

Sounds like you have some understanding with her children at this point, I am sorry that she is being a vampire with you.
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"I took her the final stuff she needed to send into the life insurance company and then she couldnt find the form from the company to send with and saying she had given them to me and I never took them."

Why did you have the final stuff she needed to send in? And now that she's lost the form from the company, what is going to happen?

If she doesn't talk to her doctor about antidepressants, but instead takes (probably too much?) Ativan, then there is really nothing you can do.
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EmotionallyNumb Jun 2022
The police emailed me a copy of the police report because life insurance wanted a copy of it so I took that over to her. The life insurance company said the form can be printed off from their website. So after this was all figured out she started crying saying that she wanted the life insurance so she could 'pay us back' and I said you don't owe us any money and she was like 'yes, I do'. I don't want any money from her, I don't want anything from her.
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EN- when are you and your mom going to take a vacation? Or you did already? If you haven't, that might be a good time to wean off aunt.
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BarbBrooklyn Jun 2022
Amen!
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As far as the rent is concerned....it can be set up to be deducted from her account every month without her doing a thing. My daughter has hers set up that way.

As far as groceries. Once a month go over and check on her. Help her order right then and there. Tell her you are not coming back to re order if she forgets or under orders so either she learns how to do this or she waits another month until you can visit again. You could probably have a standard weekly order also set up automatically for bread and milk, etc.
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EmotionallyNumb Jun 2022
She's going to have change her direct deposit before she can set that up. I know she is capable of ordering her groceries online, she's ordered stuff online before. She called yesterday and I didnt answer, I need a break from her.
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Emotionally,

Didn't Aunts siblings say they could help? Have you asked your Aunt why she feels you are her go to person when her siblings seem willing to help. If in their 60s like you said, then some are retired? so have more time on there hands then you.

I know, you have told her and now its a manipulation. Good for you you did not pick up the phone. Keep those boundries up for you. Mom also needs to understand that Aunt going thru her is not going to work either.
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EmotionallyNumb Jun 2022
I don't think aunt has called the siblings at all and asked for anything. She was trying to avoid seeing or talking to them at all when she first came to town until I invited her and them for supper and didn't tell her they were coming.
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EN- I am so glad you're going on a vacation in a couple of weeks. You need it and deserve it. If aunt can get along without you for 14 days, then she can do it for 15 or 16 days. No need to call or answer calls as soon as you get back.
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My mom has been feeling very worn out as well and kind of goes between being angry at my aunt and feeling sorry for her. Last night she called several of my cousins and reamed them out over the phone for not helping to take care of their mom. They both ended up hanging up on her. My aunt called last night and was acting like she couldn't figure out how to plug in her computer or where the cord for it was or if it was the right cord, etc. I don't know what's going on with that, I am sure she has plugged her computer in before. Maybe she's taking so much Ativan that she's confused? She also smokes pot occasionally at night so I suppose that could be part of it too.
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MargaretMcKen Jun 2022
Maybe she just wanted you to come over?
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EN, If you’re aunt doesn’t start being independent, redirect your conversation toward her going to a home. Aunt will hate that, but that’s what you’d be doing if this was a matter of cannot vs will not.
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So I had a little surprise near the end of my work day. The apartment manager from my aunt's building came to find me and tell me that aunt had been taken by ambulance to the hospital, someone called the police when they saw her crawling across the street. I called the hospital and filled them in on what's been going on with her family, that she's diabetic, hasn't been taking care of it, that she's downing Ativan. I called my mom to tell her and she had gotten off the phone with my aunt about an hour earlier and my aunt had been trying to convince her to take her to a city where one of her daughters live, about six hours away. The daughter also had no idea that aunt was trying to do this. My mom told her maybe she could take a bus and aunt said she couldn't do that. Aunt had also made some statements to my mom like 'I can't go on like this'. I filled the doctor in on all off this and that we had concerns aunt may be suicidal. The doctor said she'd order a psych consult once they had cleared her medically and that they thought she had maybe had an anxiety attack. Aunt was also not sharing much information with them and very close mouthed.

They tried to get me to come in to the hospital to sit with her but I used to work at this hospital and I know that they would try to get me to assume responsibility for her. I would like for her to be psychiatrically placed but I'm not sure what they will ultimately do, this was about six hours ago and I haven't heard anything since. I did text her kids and let them know what happened.

I am concerned but also irritated. She has two walkers, both that she can move around easily, no reason for her to be crawling. She was alert and oriented when talking to my mom shortly before this so it wasn't a confusion sort of thing. She is sharp enough that she denied being suicidal to the hospital staff and also didn't share how her husband died. So she doesn't want to be held on a psych hold which leads me to the conclusion this is an attempt at manipulation.

Furthermore, I will not stand for this shit affecting my job. I do not people coming into my job to tell me about my (and I feel bad for saying this) lunatic aunt.
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Beatty Jun 2022
Wow.

But well done with your boundaries!

Psych eval stat.

Maybe she really is struggling big time. That would be understandable - recent loss of spouse, astrangment from adult children, moving house - all that is a heap of grief & stress for anyone to deal with.

Or.. you didn't come hither, at her beck & call as she wanted so she upped her manipulation/attention/frailty game..

Either way, being admitted, getting Psych involved may just get a social worker & other help she needs.
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