I have been caring for husband for many years and its getting difficult. Now he wants to give other relatives cash?

Your profile doesn't say anything about your husband. Does he have dementia?

Is your husband able to get to a bank on his own and do this without your help?

Do you have POA? Is your name on the accounts too?

You said you've been caring for your husband for many years. Does he realize that that money may be needed for his care if he wants to remain at home for the rest of his life?

Rosmarin, has his cancer metastasized to his brain? If so, has he had whole brain rads (radiation to his brain)? There's a phenomenon known as "chemo brain" which affects cognitive thinking. He might be suffering from this.

I think it's also possible that he realizes he's dying and wants to reach out to long lost relatives; perhaps he feels some guilt in not maintaining relationships with them over the years.

However, I agree that he needs to provide for you first. And he definitely is not thinking clearly or reasonably.

I don't know if you could muster the courage to do this, but a good way to put this in perspective is to tell him that if he wants to give money to the nieces, you'll contact them, tell them his schedule and ask when they can be expected to come and take care of him, because you can't since you need to be looking for a job to support yourself after he's gone.

Despite the emotional pain you feel for his suffering, sometimes you do have to get tough to prevent someone from doing something irresponsible.

If he does have chemo brain, and although it will be unpleasant and you'll feel guilty, you might be able to have one of his doctors certify that the rads have affected his thinking so that you can use that statement to get control of his assets before they're frittered away.

I don't know what the procedure would be to do that in the UK.

OhJude, CountryMouse....any others here from the UK who can provide information on the issue of taking control of her husband's assets?

BTW, her post on the cancer issue is here:

https://www.agingcare.com/questions/get-strong-to-cope-with-husbands-terminal-lung-cancer-195450.htm

It helps to know the anguish she's undergoing now.

rosmarin, I have just read previous postings regarding your husband's lung cancer, so sad he and you have to go through this. You had mentioned he got the lung cancer from asbestos.

Here in the State there is a huge class action lawsuit regarding asbestos that caused a medical condition known as mesothelioma. Check with a solicitors or barrister to see if the UK or the country you live in has this class action lawsuit.
Go to asbestos.com for more information. Do this immediately while your husband is still able to understand what he is reading regarding legal documents, or hopefully you have some type of Power of Attorney for him.

GardenArtist Thank you so much for reply. The situation is my husband is 81 with lung cancer from asbestosis . He had a small settlement for this from the government which only funded a car suitable for a disabled person. Because he had smoked for many years though given up for over 20 years the settlement was only 10% of what it should have been. He is terribly weak physically and I have to do everything but he resents losing control especially of finances. I feel he has become irrational and this latest move seems to confirm this. We are not broke but still not flush enough to give money away to virtual strangers! I cant get a job because of my age and want to preserve our savings. We have joint bank accounts and house in joint names, I have hidden the cheque books! He has always controlled my spending though happy to spend lavishly on smoking and alcohol for himself over many years! He is too frail now to undergo any chemo or radiotherapy. I am thinking he might have some dementia not yet diagnosed. He would not sign for POA I am certain.
Yes its time to get tough though I did storm out of the place today - then had to return after an hour to see if he was OK!
(I cant update my profile as this site wont accept my UK postcode).

FF raises some interesting questions. Did some quick checking to confirm my recollections. Johns Manville was an asbestos supplier, and was named in the (probably class action) lawsuits for it's role in causing mesothelioma. In 1981 it filed for Ch. 11 protection as the asbestos lawsuits were affecting its stability.

As I recall and I didn't research this aspect, settlement funds were set up for future asbestos claims, limiting the amount of damages available to sufferers of asbestos related diseases.

I do NOT know, though, whether this settlement affected JM's American only or nonAmerican operations. Since Rosmarin is in the UK, I don't know whether or not the Ch. 11 outcomes affected it's worldwide operations including the UK.

From what you wrote, Rosemarin, it may be that your husband has already gotten as much as he can get in compensation for his asbestos related injuries, and that's unfortunate - Johns Mansville is still in operation and from what I've read is expanding operations.

In addition to the site FF suggested, there's also some historical information at Mesothelioma..

Many thanks Garden Artist & freqflyer! I was told by the lawyer dealing with his claim that if he gets mesothelioma he might get some more compensation but the consultant said it was just lung cancer though I dont trust them to know as they didnt pick up the cancer until too late - they kept saying it was scar tissue.They should have given him a proper scan instead of just X rays last year or earlier I realize now. The NHS is not that great and I feel sure if we had still been in VA/DC area he would have been looked after much better. I had wonderful treatment there . Our NHS is always short of funds so treatment is sketchy - you have to keep pushing them and when older patients are treated its hard as they usually have several different diseases. Its all a question of funding and if I had been on the ball I should have gotten a scan for him privately. All your advice is very helpful and its so good to know that you care!

Update - Eyerishlass - husband not able to get to bank on his own but I shall be going there this week for advice. He does not seem to understand we need the money to get care in - he doesnt want care in! Community palliative care nurse calling again next week so I shall get her to talk to him. He might end up in our wonderful local hospice which would be so much better than a hospital. I have always supported them with donations. The UK government only gives them 13% of their costs unfortunately.

To return to the headline, what prompted your husband's announcement of his intention to give these legacies to his nieces?

One possibility that occurs to me is that he might be thinking generally about inheritance tax - will the estate take you over the threshold?

Anyway. If he's serious, it's simple: you call a solicitor and ask him to visit the home so that your husband can make a will. To be blunt, he has a right to do that and you, as his primary caregiver, have a duty to facilitate it. If you are concerned about your own financial position after his passing, there is no reason why you should not be present to raise your concerns during the discussion; and an experienced, responsible family lawyer will normally be supportive of a spouse's reasonable expectations. Look for a firm with WIQS accreditation from the Law Society - you're not obliged to use the same person who's been dealing with the personal injury claim.

Have you had a Carer's Assessment done? You are entitled to a certain amount of respite care provided by your local authority in your own right. Contact Adult Social Services for advice about that if you haven't already. Adult Social Services will also arrange a home visit from a local authority Financial Assessment Officer who can advise you about your entitlements to care services and whether you qualify for any support. These people are there, paid for by you: use them.

I wouldn't, myself, involve the palliative care team in financial differences of opinion. They may - or may not, depending on how they view your husband's right to autonomy - be sympathetic, but this isn't their territory.

You stated that you are on a joint account(s) with your husband, and that you are thinking of tough love. Perhaps open up your own bank account in YOUR NAME ONLY and drain any joint account you have with your husband. This will prevent him from giving any of YOUR money away to relatives who show up out of the woodwork at the worst possible times. I had to use Hospice in the US and found them to be wonderful, caring and understanding as well as a small respite for myself as the sole caregiver for my mom. The above poster is correct, finances is not palliative cares business. It sounds as if, so sorry about your husbands illness, that he is being a bit unreasonable or selfish. You have given your life, your all, your everything. Do not feel guilty. You would be doing the right thing. My personal mantra is: 'Right is right and wrong is wrong'. Take charge, and take care. Wish you the best, btw.

When did it become right to deprive a person of access to his own money? At best that suggestion is incredibly unethical. At worst, if anyone got to hear of it and construed it as being done "with the intention permanently to deprive…" etc., it could lead to a charge of theft.

Don't do that.

There is just no respect today for what should be the legal entity of Mr. and Mrs.
There is the husband, a legal entity.
There is the wife, a legal entity.
Then there is the 50% legal entity of division of assets in a divorce.
There should be acknowledgement of the couple's assets and income.

I agree with helping your husband to draw up a will with an attorney.

You are married. Open your own account at another bank, and put 50% of the marital assets in there. imop.

Think about it. How could this get any worse? You are trying so hard, your husband is very ill. That loss is so hard on you already. Your efforts to help him should not be thwarted by his 'autonomy' as he clearly is not thinking of his and your future needs. At the very least, you should become his rep-payee to receive any social security funds to spend on his behalf.

Rosmarin, Is your husband talking about his own separate funds, such as the settlement he received which may be construed as his separate property?
Whether or not it is determined as separate property, once it is comingled in the joint account it may be construed as joint property.

I did not get the idea that you were trying to steal his money, but instead manage the marital finances to his benefit and yours, as community property, with impending expenses for his care looming on the horizon.

You mentioned going to the bank for advice. See an attorney instead.
Once there is a dispute concerning finances, banks get funny and may take sides.
Ask your attorney this: "Do I have to divorce my husband to protect our finances?"
Don't forget about your own autonomy in an effort to protect your husband's 'autonomy'.

Well actually while it may seem odd, she can certainly take all of it legally right now if its a joint account and she is not just an authorised user and there is nothing anyone can do to stop her.

Can I just allay some fears though. A joint account is not part of the estate of the deceased. The other account holder automatically becomes the owner of the funds in the account.

The bank will make an administrative change to remove the deceased's name from the account. It might do this by transferring the money to a new account but more likely they will just change the account name.

It is not the same as with a single account holder when they do freeze the account pending probate or other evidence of future ownership of the funds

I seriously think she could land herself with a world of trouble if she prevented her husband having access to his money. Yes, I agree there is no mechanism to stop her; she could do it tomorrow morning if she felt so inclined; but if questions got asked, and given that the husband is a vulnerable adult, all kinds of insinuations might be made.

But I can't imagine her wanting to do that, anyway.

You make a good point about the continuation of the joint account following the decease of one account holder; we've found that our clearing bank has actually just left the whole thing as is. In fact, now that it's come up, I'm not sure the executors will have thought to tell this particular bank that one party has died. Oops. Better get on to that in the morning :/

No Countrymouse, if you are on a joint account, then you have every LEGAL right to take out the money. The money in a joint account belongs to the wife, in this case, just as much as the husband. If her husband is making POOR decisions, completely blind to how his decisions may affect his wife negatively, then HE is being irresonsible and the wife should step up and stop it. It is not theft, feel free to google joint accounts. The $$$ in any joint account is co-owned by both authorized signers. The only unethical actions I read here were done by the husband. Where did you read "his own money"? It is not " his own money", it is HER own money too. I know finances, I know law, and I know and practice ethics. Please explain how the husband spitting away his wife's money, money that is hers and this wife needs to survive in the future, the wife who was his caregiver for years is ethical? It isnt HIS money, it is just as much HER money. Google what a joint account is. Educate yourself pls.

Whoa whoa Liz hold fire sweetheart that last post was a bit strong and CM is one of the most supportive contributors and in this particular instance is also British which is for once actually required - hear that CM we are wanted!!!!

Just for clarity and I AM SPECIFICALLY TALKING UK HERE
Joint accounts belong to both parties: the real disadvantage of them is that unless cosignators are arranged any one of the joint account holders can and very often has in the past withdrawn all the money.

Where CM was coming from is that in the UK if wifey took ALL the money and left him for whatever reason with nothing, the fact that he has a terminal illness could in theory, given his age be regarded as financial abuse. Our laws have stood us well over hundreds of years but somehow we never got to grips with banking laws!

It doesn't actually matter HOW irresponsible he is being if he has the money in the bank and wants it for his chimpanzee he can have as long as it is there. The money isn't hers either or rather it is all hers if she gets to it first and all his if he does! The only way she can stop it is to drain the account or request a change of mandate which would stop all spend on the account. If she TOLD the bank that her husband had mental disabilities the BANK will freeze the account (IN UK) to protect the vulnerable adult from financial abuse,

My father had Mesothelioma before it was really diagnosed. The cancer traveled to his brain and destroyed his rational thinking. This may be what is happening to your husband. Talk to his doctor about this. I have no knowledge of English laws regarding money, I hope someone from the UK can help.

Oops, one more thought, what are the tax ramifications of giving them cash? Maybe you could stall him on that thought.

LizDevine, you state that you "know law". Do you know English banking laws on joint accounts? That's the topic under discussion, not banking laws in the US.

I think with or without brain mets, that persons with end stage lung cancers may show grandiose delusions or impulses of behavior lacking in judgment. If he didn't do those things before he got sick, I wouldn't let him do it now. The way to prevent it may seem passive aggressive (don't take him to the bank, hide his checks, don't mail the checks, do drain the joint account maybe) but if he is close enough to death to be on hospice you can't be passive about allowing him to drain assets you likely will need when you survive him. Maybe you can keep a list and have his wishes carried out in your own will from assets remaining after you die. Those nieces might get their check someday! If you have less than $1million dollars for yourself, you could easily spend it all on barely average care during the duration of your lifetime...at least in the USA.

In terms of cash gifts A person can only give 3000 pounds a year to a person or persons. That said a POA cannot do that in England unless they have good reason to. Let me explain....if I have given a gift of £3000 to my son and to my daughter every year as birthday gifts then a POA can gift that. If I have NEVER gifted before then the POA cannot because the POA cannot rationalise why they are doing it. However POA rules don't apply here but in the UK you cannot spend down either without someone asking questions. So wife is in a bit of a cleft stick. Hubby is asking for something that is not the norm, appears to be irrational and wife is rightly concerned. If hubby has any form of mental incapacity then it is likely that if he doesn't or perhaps now can't make her POA then he will become a ward of court at which point things will become expensive and difficult. In all honesty I would, if I were her, draw all the money out and put it in a private account to protect it. However I would also say that if he does still have mental capacity and can rationalise WHY he wants to gift that money then it should be released to be gifted, assuming that it comes from his share of the money.

My real concern is that perhaps he feels he owes that money for a perfectly good reason that he doesn't want his wife to know about (maybe he borrowed some money from their father or similar and didn't tell you and now wants to make things right) Then you do fall into difficulty because he will NEVER explain why he wants to gift it.

I think Kathy's idea of enacting his wishes in your will rosmarin is a fabulous idea but I note he is refusing that and wanting to do it now while he is alive. I would get a medical opinion on his state of mind and then take action accordingly but I would protect that money first....just in case

Kathy- We certainly have far less than one million dollars! I dont want to deprive him of anything but need money for his care as well as probably mine, I already told him I will give the nieces money in my will which I am getting drawn up right now. I do think his personality has changed and he isnt thinking straight. I dont intend to ask the hospice anything about finances but the Citizens Advice Bureau are usually very helpful so will be calling them tomorrow. And yes care is extremely expensive over here too! Many thanks for all replies.

OhJude It seems he is thinking back to when his older brother got divorced and he helped with the daughters for a short while many years ago when he was still a child himself. It could be memories of happier days. However his brother was never very responsible and would never have lent him money. Getting down to the nitty gritty I shall get more advice tomorrow. Half our money was left to me by my mother when she died but we put all our assets in joint names never thinking there could be a problem! Just when I thought things couldnt get any worse!

I am sorry if my response regarding joint accounts seemed harsh, it was not intended to be towards the original poster. Typical ugly American, I assumed she was in the US. (You know, the center of the world).
In any case, perhaps a nerve was touched because one of my sisters was on a joint account with my mom prior to her passing and she wiped the account of everything but $600. There was 5 figures in there, and as executor, there is nothing my other siblings and I can do about it, even the DAs office and elder abuse investigator said my sister did not break any laws. My mother had to absorb the fact that one of her 3 daughters took the majority of her money about 6 months before she died with me at home. My mothers money is gone, I have the bank statement with the date and time sis transferred all mom's money into her own private account. My point to the poster was that she needs to worry about herself, as caregiver first and not long lost relatives when the inevitable happens. The original poster sounded very, very concerned about finances, and again, here is the US, joint accounts are just that. However, I do believe that the caregiver in the UK should protect her assets and financial future. I am glad to read that she is getting UK legal advice to protect her future. If Rosmarins husband is making irresponsible decisions, I hope this can be stopped and rationalized since she is the one being hurt a bit by him giving money away. She is the caregiver and more importantly, a caring and devoted wife. We all know as caregivers that you have to take care of yourself first before you can take care of a loved one. I can imagine it must be difficult for her with the financial worries looming in back of her mind at the same time she is doing all medical, emotional, and psycological care. I wish rosmarin nothing but the best. Take care and god bless

Yep thought there had to be a trigger in there somewhere Rosmarin - it is too random if not. CAB will help you and they don't have to be as tightly to the line as perhaps some professionals have to be. I think it is a finely drawn line - is this a random expression that is indicative of something deeper and underlying or is it his real solemn wish to give the money to them. If it is the former then you need POA finance immediately or to draw the cash out and put it in your name and then record all spending - forgot to mention that earlier (and keep all receipts - I now have carrier bags FULL of them) if it is his solemn wish then try to get a lawyer to explain to him that the best way to do this is to have the solicitor draw up mirror wills- his leaving it all to you in the first instance and then to be gifted as stated should you die within 30days You draw up a will stating exactly the same only to him.

Or, look on that £6K (?!) figure as the opening of a negotiation - you can be supportive of his wish to make a handsome gesture towards his nieces without its being quite as handsome as that.

that's what my parents did, as well as put all their assets in joint account, which upset my uncles because, like you, Rosmarin, possibly half of it was money that was left to her both by her mother when she died and also from the sale of her family's farm after her dad died, plus also her share of her uncle's estate, who died without any children and her dad being already gone, plus also her share of her aunt's estate, who also died without any children and her mother already being gone but somebody, not entirely sure if it was her or dad, then did the same thing, in giving a lot of it away, just know that by the time mom needed care the money wasn't there and she hadn't been able to go to the bank by herself for quite some time by then but also know that she - and I am wondering in this case how, Rosmarin, he wants to actually do this - is he wanting you to take him to the bank to do it, since he can't get there by himself? and what will he do or how will he act if you won't? that's exactly what was going on with hub's aunt and uncle, only nobody believed her, and I didn't either, until I took them somewhere, somewhat along the same lines, only not sure I realized it either until an incident happened along the way and I saw it for myself, that she was scared to not do what he wanted, though that doesn't seem to be quite your situation, but as part of that he practically drained them of all "their" finances to take care of her after he's gone and even to take care of him before; they didn't have a million either; actually I say "their" because, as I understand, even though this specifically (again, as I understand) was his retirement, the only reason and way they were able to still have it is because she funded their expenses out of a business that she had; had she insisted on keeping "her" money separate, like he did, as in I don't think she had access to this retirement account; not sure she could or he could allow her, since it was something set up by his company, but if she had, then if he had to use that for expenses, he wouldn't have had it to give away but he never considered that and she never really considered there could be a problem, even after also, besides their own expenses, she helped him buy a farm! I was somewhat wondering about children, as in their case, they also have the joint account, which also has their son's name on it, which the statement has this retirement account on it, so he's been able to see what's been going on with it, such that it was drained to the point of all that was left was what they'd said was to go to pay for their funeral, not sure if they'd told the bank that or not, but they said they would not let him have anymore of the money, but somebody else (the person who'd been being given the money?) also saw the bank statement and saw where that money was no longer there got him to tell them that he'd given permission? how? for possibly that other person on the other account? or maybe actually on that one as well - and nobody knew? - to withdraw that money and place it somewhere else? to keep it from being taken? though how? not sure but don't understand how, though really don't believe that's the case here, in liz's case, there can't be an elder abuse charge, if the money wasn't used for mom's care or more specifically if sis used it for herself, since that's exactly what's going on in this other situation of mine, but in this case, I believe the money's just been parked in another account for their funeral; I'm just concerned about between now and then; and I know, rosmarin, you're in the UK and I'm just another US'er but seems like something was said on here about the VA, though not sure if that was specific to your situation, but along the lines of when the money was used up, but that's not quite - or hasn't been - the same as the public money, at least hasn't been here....

I'm not seeing the VA thing; maybe that was on another post and also I forgot about the check thing; was he going to just write and send them checks; that's something hub's uncle's never done, so she didn't have to worry about that angle of it, the problem being that's what she does, on top of, or maybe now that the retirement money's gone, though why, with the concerns she's expressed, I don't know. Anyway I believe I did see something about getting some type of public assistance.

We think he may have given POA without wife knowing about it but re the public assistance, not sure how it is in the UK but we have private companies here who are willing to go ahead and pay a caring company to go ahead and come in and provide care while waiting for all the approvals to come through from the govt to pay for it with the understanding that they will be reimbursed when that happens but one of the stipulations for that is that nobody else have access to the account it will come to that could take it before they can get it or it be sent to them, so aunt was advised to at least, even if she didn't take out the funds from the joint account, to open a separate account, though now that I think about it, that was mainly, if not only, to have an account, that didn't have anybody else's name or at least that no one else had access to, not her own separate account, because she couldn't get the funds, unless she made sure she got them immediately upon deposit, but then that was the issue with the other person; I think we didn't realize the situation between them at that point

either he didn't realize you have to give POA to your wife, that she can't do anything even with "your" stuff, even if you are married, or he doesn't want her to be the one to be able to; he's always somewhat controlled things there as well, like yours, rosmarin