Independent living rent going up again! FIL needs convincing about downsizing from 2-bedroom into a 1-bedroom. Any advice?
I have been saying this for a long time but now my husband "sees" the problem, and is dreading bringing this up again with his father. My FIL has mild dementia, anxiety, depression, and is a fall risk, and his needs will only increase as he gets older. He currently resides in independent living, in the 2-bedroom he shared with my late MIL.
The apartment is far away from the elevator, and is much too big for him. It costs him a fortune every month in rent, and the rent is going up (again). His 2-bedroom is rapidly depleting his nest egg. More concerning to me, is that it's stressing out my husband who is dad's DPOA and makes sure that his dad has enough money to pay for everything he needs, which includes 2 shifts of caregivers 7 days a week. We want to make it so that FIL can afford to live out the rest of his days in that building unless he needs memory care in which case the community has a room to transition him.
It's FIL's money but my husband is the one with the stress of making the numbers work. How do we "sell" my FIL on downsizing and moving closer to an elevator? How do we work this out with my FIL, who freaks out at the mere suggestion of moving to a 1-bedroom? It's tax time and maybe we should link the two conversations? Thoughts?? Suggestions???
23 Answers
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His siblings, so are they at all clear about how dad is hemorrhaging $?
If not expect blowback, and lots of “lo jodiste” that hubs should have doled out the $ better.... even though hubs wisely had his $ last to this point. Dealing with his siblings could also cause fear.
I know Papi, he’s my maternal grandfather. Old school Hispanic. Control & fear is how he ran his business and his family. My mom was the youngest and when she finally got married to my dad (Papi did not allow her to marry her first two suitors), it wasn’t congratulations but who is going to stay to take care of us. Among my parents friends - even when there was $ and had maids - there was supposed to be 1 who stayed at the family homestead to be the caretaker. Your hubs being male was expected to get marrried but still expected to be the caretaker. The behavior is hard to break. To this very last Christmas, I still have cousins in their flipping late 70’s who are all “donde carajos” about stuff that was in our grandparents house. The whole we’re Hispanic & we don’t put our family in NH is a big steaming load. Both my grandmothers went into NH; my mom as well. Times change..... like outside of seeing the pope does anyone even think of wearing a mantilla?
Out of curiosity, do they converse Spanish only when you are there? If so, and your not fluent, tell hubs that has to be 86’d or he has to code switch all conversations. Also the caregivers, are they real hands on caregivers or more like companions or sitters?
Yup, you're on track.
His afternoon caregiver is more hands on but the first shift one is more like a housekeeper. The family speaks English when I'm around. No one in this family has ever been put in a NH and I understand their expectations but times change. And people change! My husband may be struggling with what to do about his dad and I'm trying to help him get there. My husband wants his dad to move to a 1-bedroom but cannot force him without risking a host of backlash.
I don't know if that's the case among Spaniards. But here's the thing. You all live in the U.S. The economy, the housing and health care system is set up in such a way as to penalize folks who pay for their parents' care. It's like they say, your kids can take out loans for college. Fund your retirement first
No loans for retirement! You need to make sure that YOUR old age is funded adequately.
If FIL has funds, they need to be spent wisely on his care. If he runs out, there will be government assistance that will be available if hes indigent and medically in need of a NH.
DH might do well to consult with an eldercare attorney who understands Medicaid.
You and he might benefit from some sessions of couples therapy to work out why this is so difficult for him. And to make a plan, going forward that you both can live with.
Having no money causes arguments and having too much money also causes arguments. We are going around in circles. It's going to take some unforeseen and large expense to get my husband to stop the bleeding.
Their attitude toward money and saving money shocks me. It also makes me resolute to ensure my own financial wellbeing. In my opinion, every caregiver should have their own rainy day fund.
Any thoughts on what the cultural background has to do with what's going on with my FIL and husband? And what can I do about it?
With my inlaws we had to make a simple spreadsheet that showed his income, out going expenses and his reserves. We told them that since they were still in good physical health we had to plan that they could live another 10 years! We showed them that if they kept expenses at the rate they were spending, they'd be out of money in less than 3 years. We had it printed on cardstock and hard laminated so they could refer to it. My inlaws were similar in that they had no budget and the dementia had dimmed their ability to see the bigger picture on how fast they were running through their money. For example, they lived in independent living but it included 2 meals a day, yet they were going out to eat daily???? They couldn't understand that that was not a wise use of their money. SO we had to show them the bigger picture.
I will also encourage you to consider an assisted living situation. You can probably get a nice assisted living apartment that comes with what you are paying the extra in caregiving for. I know that I live in Texas and you live in NY, but my inlaws are in nice assisted living cottages--8 rooms per "house", with a community dining room, living room, all their cleaning and laundry done and 3 meals a day, and medication management. 24 hr assistance, for $4,700 per month--FOR 2 OF THEM--One is even in Memory Care!
I'm very good with spreadsheets and will offer my husband to work with him to show his dad his burn rate.
As I wrote to Barb, the current big picture plan is to keep FIL at IL until one of two things happens: he dies or his dementia gets so bad that he needs memory care. That's what my husband has in his mind. Whether or not that will pan out remains to be seen.
My FIL is bleeding money and my husband is enabling it.
It's my FIL's money to spend/waste. And yet FIL needs my husband to manage his money.
This is a huge mess.
(There was someone in my mom's IL who had full time aides. Everyone complained about the situation all the time; the woman was combative and sometimes loud. I believe they eventually evicted her.)
It's also not yours to solve, and certainly not with YOUR retirement funds.
Would your husband like you to take this decision making off his plate? Will he cooperate if you come up with a plan to move his dad to an AL where he wouldn't need aides?
How would talking to the facilty make things worse, do you think. I think that you need to know what management is thinking. Perhaps they've been communicating with DH and hes not sharing?
This sounds like a marriage issue to me, since it's clear that it's having an impact on yours. Will DH see a therapist with you?
Can you tell us the cultural background that is causing DH such angst and guilt?
This situation is definitely not of my making. In fact, I feel like Cassandra.
The big picture plan is to keep FIL at IL until one of two things happens: he dies or his dementia gets so bad that he needs memory care.
I don't actually know why I think talking to the facility would make things worse. It's just a worry I have that I might put something into motion and then it spins out of control.
Culturally, they are Spaniard and very Catholic. My hubby is the youngest. Definitely lots of angst.
omg, I totally understand Why. Your. Freaking. Out.
so 150k - 180k a yr for FIL to fall risk meander about in IL?
OK there major denial happening here for both hubs and FIL. What is it? Not accepting mom’s death? Fear? Guilt? You know the dynamics best.
If the situation is an impasse, I’d try to bypass both of them and try to get management involved to get him moved.
Believe me they do not want the liability of a fall risk being a problem for the other residents of the IL section. I’m kinda surprised other IL residents aren’t complaining about those caregivers of his always being about. He’s not IL if he has to have aides pretty much continuously. Could it be that they have cut him some slack as everybody loved your late MIL, so hasn’t presssed his needing to move to higher level of care?
My mom was in IL. A tiered facility, the kind that runs from IL to AL to NH & hospice wing. IL would do fire drills and if residents could not totally on their own exit via fire stairwells, they would either be required to have a needs assessment done (they liked your parent & wanted them in AL or NH sector) or 30 day notice to move (they didn’t). Could there be anyway to have management do a fire drill?? So he’s deemed unsuitable for IL and he has no option but to move into higher level of care? Like AL or MC? So it’s no longer hubs or FILs choice.
I assume since theres a CPA, that those caregivers are being paid properly with FICA, reporting, etc? Right?
I don't know what is causing my husband and FIL to be in denial. I know my husband tries to be gentle with his father. My husband isn't very proactive. He's mostly reactive, dealing with things once he has to or else they won't go away. He also procrastinates unless it's something fun in which case he's first in line.
A fire drill is an interesting idea indeed! It never occurred to me that IL residents have to be able to evacuate themselves. How do I go about that? Ask when they ran their last fire drill?
There are a lot of complaints about caregivers being around, but when a person pays nearly 175k a year they probably fall on deaf ears.
I have the manager's email address. What can I do that won't make a bad situation worse? I'm afraid of opening up Pandora's Box! What information would I share? What would I ask for?
Yes, your FIL needs to move to a smaller living space - he doesn't need that much room and you don't know how long he will be there - could be 2 months, could be 10 years and you have to plan his finances accordingly. But ask for an itemized bill to see whether there are things he is being charged for that he shouldn't be and if so, question it.
I definitely will ask my husband to let me look at his dad's monthly rent bill. Thanks for the good suggestion. At the very least it will start a discussion. At worst, another argument about his dad wasting his money. My husband and I come from two very different cultures.
I'm considering telling my husband directly that I am concerned about his dad's spending and his money lasting. I feel I have earned the right to have a say in what's best for his dad, who does have mild dementia and hates change.
I am so sorry that you are going through this. To me, money seems like such a silly thing to stress over. And yet, here we are!
I reminded my husband that when his mom was still alive, the building charged an extra $1500 per month for her meals, and that now that she's gone, the building is losing that money and has a vested interest in getting another couple into his dad's 2-bedroom.
Hubby had a hard time with all of this. And I am concerned that hubby's reaction to this new approach is skepticism: "Why would the building offer my dad a deal on a 1-bedroom out of the blue?" I replied that the building knows that his dad has been falling a lot lately, and fell a couple times in the dining room. So an offer on a 1-bedroom closer to the elevator wouldn't exactly be "out of the blue".
I am even more concerned that hubby concluded our discussion with "Let's see if dad's attitude about moving has changed". Yeah - and I'll start holding my breath.
Yep, your dad really doesn’t need a two bedroom. We don’t need extra space as we get older. It’s a waste.
When your FIL says I don't want to, sounds like a knee jerk answer. And since it has worked so well with his son, well you know.
Is it possible to say, we don't want to either, but it is about needing too. Then give him the reality of what happens when he runs out of money. I would bet Medicaid isn't going to keep him where he is at. Just getting your husband out of the waffle iron would be so beneficial. Maybe, if your husband realizes that his dad will be a financial burden that takes your financial security or ends up on Medicaid without a penny to his name will help him put his foot down and implement the move out of necessity and not force.
If that doesn't work, get someone to take him for the day and bring him home to his new digs. Change is scary, but once he sees it's not as much change as he thought, he will adjust.
My prayers are with you, I know how frustrating it is when you are stuck in the middle and are the only one that can see it for what it really is.
Yes, I feel like Cassandra!!
Medicaid will never ever pay for indy living. If he runs out of money and has to go on Medicaid he will have a conniption fit. And there will be nothing I can do about it because hubby and I do not have the money to pay for even a 1-bedroom in that community, and we do not have an extra bedroom into which he could move. And I will never agree to liquidate my retirement savings to keep him there.
I have compromised and sacrificed for my husband and FIL. I agreed to move to be closer to my inlaws! I have done so much more for my FIL than his other children combined. I have my limits and will make no further compromises.
God help everyone if FIL runs out of money because they chose to enable his stubbornness and idiotic spending. That will be the day I take my leave, go home to my old house in the mountains, and let FIL's children figure out how to solve his mess.
If you want to downsize, go for it!
We want my FIL to remain in that building just in a 1-bedroom rather than a 2-bedroom/2-bath. He never uses the second bed/bath. It's where the caregivers seem to hangout and where the washer/dryer is. It's an extravagant and awfully expensive hangout!
In a 1-bedroom the washer/dryer is between the bedroom and bathroom in a spacious space near the linen and walk-in closets. Bathrooms are just as spacious and ADA-accessible as the bathroom FIL uses now.
The CPA is a powerful ally because if he's got a relationship with your FIL, HE can talk the numbers to FIL in a way that you and dh can't.
FIL's knee jerk reaction to moving is "I don't want to", and he's never been a saver. Part of the problem is that my husband has done such a wonderful job managing his parents' money that FIL might be under the impression that he does not need to tighten his financial belt.
My husband always rescues his dad. He once drove one hour while he was away on business to put money into his dad's checking account because his dad dropped off his rent check and bounced. If my husband weren't POA I still would care but his financial woes wouldn't be in my face every single month when it's time to pay the rent on an apartment that is just too damn big and expensive.
I knew my mom had assets. My brother was POA; his wife, my wonderful SIL has an MBA and has a much better handle on money than the rest of us. So she was always gonna be in charge of what mom could afford.
So 5k per month for IL for two years, then 10k per month in the nh, plus maintenance on her house, which we didnt sell until year 3 in the NH....I kept thinking, she's running out of money, right? We must be getting close to Medicaid, yes? Dad was an engineer and mom didnt go back to work until she was 60. Worked as a secretary for an insurance broker, so not all that much from her side of the equation. My parents were frugal, but she MUST be running out money, yes????
What I didn't realize was that my mom had a wonderful INCOME stream from my dad's pension and SS which apparently paid for IL in its entirety and fully half the NH fees.
You might want to sit down with the cpa, dh and the numbers. I suspect if CPA says fil can afford it, he's correct.
CPA has been doing their taxes for 45 years. He knows the lifestyle to which FIL has grown accustomed. CPA is not the one who has to shuffle around money and bills every few months - that's on my husband.
I'm not convinced the CPA sees the big picture, or maybe he's assuming that my FIL won't live much longer. I think my FIL could very well live another 10 years. I know his mother lived to some ripe old age - 97 or 98 or so.
My husband sold their house and invested the money for his parents, which pays a tidy sum each month, but he still needs to take money out of his dad's IRA to cover the shortfall on his expenses. The big nut is FIL's rent in the 2-bedroom that is approaching what your mother's NH cost.
See if they will match a lower price. How long has FIL been a tenant there?
It’s ridiculous how often rent is raised.
He lives in one of the most expensive places around. They will not match and they will not lower the rent on a 2-bedroom because they have a waiting list for 2-bedrooms. It's a 55+ building and they have active seniors who want bigger units so that their grandkids can come and visit and stay over. If he moves, they will rent his 2-bedroom in a heartbeat.
So yes, talk about the numbers, show him the numbers in black-and-white. project it out for him. if it’s only mild dementia he can still grasp it.
You also have to talk up the positives of the new place and follow through. That is if you promise more visits then visit more etc.
If it’s really expensive for where he lives and it’s far away from you, this is one thing I would recommend: go ahead and make the major change now instead of doing this incrementally on him ( moving again if his memory gets worse- which it will. ) it will be worse for him the more you move him.
Familiarity is very important to the client with dementia because as his memory goes, those things that he recognizes are what gives him some sanity and peace of mind as he sees himself declining. So do please avoid that as much as possible.
My heart breaks for you. Watching this progress is hard on everyone. But the least amount of changes possible is the best choice.
Thanks for your reply! We are trying to balance his sanity with reality. Reality is that his rent just went up (again) and by a lot. We live only a few miles away and can pop over for a quick visit.
I think by combining your suggestion of showing him the numbers with Countrymouse's of getting him a great new deal, we may be able to sell him on the idea of a 1-bedroom close to the elevator. He still can grasp numbers but he doesn't necessarily grasp the big fiscal picture. He always loved to spend spend spend.
He would still be in the same building, see his neighbors and friends, do his daily routines, etc. The apartments all "feel" the same - have the same kitchenette, same bathrooms, same floors and carpeting, etc. The pieces of furniture he uses every day will all fit. His formal living room, which he's never in anyway, would not.
How is a smaller apartment going to work with the two shifts of caregivers? Will there still be enough living space during the day?
I never thought of approaching the manager and negotiating. That's a brilliant strategy! Thank you so much for the suggestion. I'm going to pass it along to my husband when he gets home from work. This has been weighing on me all day because he's getting his dad's taxes done this week.
There will still be enough space for the caregivers, but their comfort isn't my priority. Currently, the caregivers hang out in the second bedroom while my FIL watches TV or takes a nap. Both caregiver shifts would nearly be paid for just by the savings of moving to a 1-bedroom. FIL's 2-bedroom is CRAZY expensive and the rent just went up again.
Often we resorted to telling mom, " now it's time to" rather than " do you want to", which always produced a " no" response.
If he asks why, you tell him the doc said "now it's time to move closer to the elevator".
"Now it's time to..." may work. I need to remember that phrasing.
"Now it's time to look at a 1-bedroom closer to the elevator."
We cannot tell him the doc said so because his neurologist wouldn't back us up. His neurologist wouldn't do anything for the 2 years I was telling him that my FIL was cognitive decline and losing his balance. FIL will not switch doctors. He likes this neurologist because he's young and "respects his elders".
My FIL still knows what buttons to push in order to get my husband to back off. When it comes to money, my husband is vigilant about doing everything above board and doing nothing that could lead anyone to accuse him of any impropriety.
With your FIL having dementia....it's very difficult to convince, persuade or get them on board something they are against. He may not be able to process the information, so that it makes sense. If he is deemed incompetent by his doctor, then, his DPOA would make the decisions, regardless. I know you want him to be content, but, sometimes, that isn't possible. I'd explore compromise, though, that is probably not something that he would be open to, based on what you have said. I hope othesr will have some suggestions for you.
Thanks so much for your reply!
His dementia is very mild but I hear what you're saying. My husband seems to waffle between recognizing that his dad has dementia and treating him as if he's still fully competent and not forcing him to do anything he doesn't want to do. I feel like I'm between a rock and a hard place, and never know which approach my husband is going to take with his dad - the "my dad's brain is broken" or "I can't force him". It's maddening.
What kind of specialist? My husband already has spoken with his dad's financial advisor, and liquidated an old IRA to pay for his rent. He's also spoken with his dad's accountant but all she says is "he can afford it."
No way that FIL's neurologist will declare him incompetent.