Is it normal she's so negative?

Jewel, an interesting thing happens when you hit a true crisis in your own life. You have no energy or inclination to get flapped about the little stuff, and now more of it is in that category. It becomes easier to have an emotional separation from your mom because you instinctively know you have to really preserve your emotional and physical health. It becomes easier to end convos when the snarkiness starts because you flat don't want to waste precious emotional energy. One way to help your husband be able to deal with this is to make a huge effort to not discuss your mom, to try to keep calm and positive and very present for him. It'll help him to see you as his partner and not her daughter.

I agree with each of you. When it rains it pours. Today we found out that my husband lost a very important contract with his business that keeps a float through the summer months. The anguish of dealing with my mom and now this is a bit much for a person to take. I feel like heart2heart and Heidi, sometimes I think "what have I done to deserve all this"? I know really it isn't anything I have done, but it is so hard to put it in perspective sometimes. My world is crashing down right in front of me and nothing I can really do about it. I am not losing my faith, but my husband thinks we are being punished for something. I keep telling him that we are not being "punished". We have done nothing wrong. I gave up my life for my mom and now I am just trying to get it back and he has worked hard all his life to support our family and now the rug has been pulled out from him too. One day at a time. Today I have food to eat and can pay a bill or two. Tomorrow will take care of itself, I am told. When think of my mom and her negative, hateful way I get a little disappointed in how things work--she is hateful, self righteous, and doesn't have much faith;, but when it comes to paying her bills and having things she always wanted, she wanted for nothing. She has plenty of money--and I mean plenty, she was so talented, beautiful..it seemed she had it all. Now, I see that even though she had it all, she didn't appreciate it. We try to be kind to others, do the "right" things, make good decisions based on how it might affect someone else, and we struggle. It just doesn't make sense sometimes. This isn't all about money--but it does help to pay the bills, but this is also about stress in our lives. It seems my stresses are much grea than my moms ever were. She never worried about money,she did what she wanted--and so did we (what she wanted), she always had people eating out of her hands. The truth is, I know it's not that way now. my life seems to be getting harder since I took on the care giving role. Even though I am trying to back off, it just keeps getting harder. If this is a test, I WILL pass it. #movingforward. Cha Bang, Cha Bing.. :-)

You know... You have some very good points and insight here Heidi (and from your family... which now that you've said it.. I've had also). They are 'who' they are... 'we' are 'who' we are... There are very, very few people that would 'dedicate/give/love/nurture... like us caregivers... daughters/sons/spouses... The more we love... the more it hurts... That's because we FEEL so deeply... You, I and others here must be easy on ourselves ... Even though I know how you must be feeling and what you're going through... I go through the same things... I love my mother so deeply I would do anything for her and yet I've have horrible memories of shouting at her to 'try' and get her to 'listen' to me or try and get her 'acceptance/respect' as her daughter. I'm in some pain now, as the past Easter weekend we had some awful times that I blame myself for... It's a horrible feeling when you're giving up so much and the tables keep turning over... When it comes to the next day... my mother and I make up (most of the time), but the past always hurts... So, we have to do whatever it takes to keep healthy so we don't get sick. What good would that do?... I wish we were in the same town...(I'm in Denver)... But, let's keep in touch... You're a GREAT daughter/person... What you're going through is 'normal'... We're such a speck of particle on this planet... There has to be meaning in all of this... and, we gave our best... Thinking of you today...

It takes time to get through things, Heart2Heart. I still go wildly between emotions. Some days I'm angry, just unbelievably angry, and other days I feel like I could crawl into bed and never get out from under the covers. Other days, I'm rational and feel normal and sensible about it all. It's probably the stages of grief and it takes a while to get through it. Sometimes I just let myself get angry about this or that and other times I make lists of what's good (sometimes it's just good stuff I've done for my mom: She keeps telling me I'm a jerk, but I've visited her at the hospital, helped her move, lent her money, given her money, carried groceries, tried to include her for holidays, etc.) and that can help. Kind of makes you think, OK, I've tried. That's something. If they can't appreciate it or see it for what it is, too bad!
I've heard the "cause" of everything bad, too. Is it realistic, though? How did you "cause" it? I know my mom always blamed the whole family and my aunt once said "you know, we loved your mother, but we never knew what to make of her." I thought that was telling. We all knew there were problems, we just (back then) didn't know that we could call them that or label them as mental illness necessarily.

I am very fortunate that I have had a great mom. You may find it helpful to listen to the Dr. Laura radio show. Satellite radio Sirius XM 109. There other ways to get her show. She really tells it like it is and she can help you move on with respect to you mom. You don't have to be her doormat. Nothing you can do will change that. Spend your love on someone who cares.

Yes Heidi that's how it feels. I am the 'cause' of everything that goes wrong in my family. I should have stayed completely away (had I known growing up). Now, these are the (bad/nightmare) memories I'll have to 'carry' all my life which isn't deserving. I used to be should a loving, happy person loving life... Every time I try to bounce back, something happens and I feel sick. I so wanted this Easter to be a joyous one... I wish you happiness...

Heart2Heart, I totally get it when you say you feel like the rug's being pulled from under you. I'm in a good spot at the moment, mainly because I'm not talking to my mom much and it's such a relief to hear all that negativity. But there are so many times where I've hoped or thought, oh, it's going well, maybe it'll be better now, and then ... the accusations or whatever come back. It's like a sandcastle getting knocked over by a wave.

I know Jewel. Somehow I feel like I have been abandoned all my life. I guess I should have been a more 'hardened' daughter, but it wasn't my mature... But, I still feel like I will never have a mother like we hear from our friends. How do we go through the rest of our life accepting that?... I feel rejected...

Oh yes the horror that we find a way to help them out that doesn't include us doing it for them. It drives my mom crazy that I may find a different way to help instead of physically doing it myself. She thinks when I do this, I am neglecting her in some way. If I am not there physically then I don't care--her words. If I don't cry with her then I don't care. I am all out of tears. She is seeking sympathy over and over, but cannot find even the least bit of empathy for anyone.

I have had a couple friends in the past week lose their moms. These are both male friends and their moms meant the world to them and their moms were so good to them. They are heartbroken. I feel so sorry for them knowing that they will miss their moms and be lost without them. Then there is my mom sitting at AL being hateful, complaining, negative and hating life as she knows it. (I do understand that life isn't as she would like it, but it never has been in her eyes even when life was good) I know I am not supposed to question, but I do wonder how some can live a short happy life and some have to live a long miserable life. My mom is soon to be 70 and that is so young but I will tell you that she will live like her mom, grandmother and great grandmother--they all lived to 90-101. Her dad died of cancer at 67, but the rest of the family lives a very long time. Which is great, but my mom will live a long, miserable life.--so sad.

I have spent the day preparing for Easter and have enjoyed the day, but then I have those instant thoughts about her and how she will not hear from again this Sunday. I am very proud of myself for taking a stand, but then the little girl in me feels like I am disobeying my mommy.

Every time I think things will get better or start to 'feel' better, I seem to get the rug pulled out from under me. You know... Like you just can't win no matter what. I feel like I'm not supposed to have happiness in the family I was born into. Does anyone else feel this way? Like nothing you do or say (after braking your back... Jumping through hoops... Living for everyone else...) just comes back to bite you. I get so depressed some times... And yes, I've seen 'counsellors' that didn't help at all.... Sometimes, I'm not sure why I'm really born.... Sad, eh? All this because I feel I' ve tried to 'fit' in and be 'accepted' in my family which will never happen... They only care about themselves... I worked so hard to make this a happy Easter and now my heart.is so sad and heavy... I also have to watch my health so I don't get really sick.... Maybe, I'll have a cry tonight...I'm just so damaged.

She has never been a negative person. I think she hid a lot from her children, like trying to hide our dad's developing dementia. I realize she has had depression over the years. She would write letters about how she felt about things and never send them. She is on an antidepressant which I believe helps (when she takes her medications)

For some reason, looloo, your comments make me think of my mom's response to Meals on Wheels.
I set it up for her after her fall because I thought it'd be good for her to get some variety and a regular hot meal, which has to be nice when you tire easily or live alone. It's free in the area, with a suggested donation. I hoped she'd see it as a nice service in the area. She saw the suggested donation part and called it a money grab.
I explained and said she could give what she could afford. She tried to cancel it, saying she couldn't afford it. Again, I had to explain it, and then she started ranting about how the food was "for poor people" and it was insulting or it wasn't always her preferred meat and potatoes (my god! They delivered spaghetti! The horror!), and again, they just were seeking money.
I told her for some people that's their only contact with another person and sometimes it's the only good meal they get each day. She still insisted it was disgusting food for poor people.
My husband and I just shrugged at it. Free, charity, kindness ... it's none of that for her. It's just an inconvenience to her because it's not exactly what she wants. It was just another step in me giving up. I'll help her if I can, but I'm not breaking my back to try and make her happy, since nothing ever will.

The past few days I've seen some beautiful self-written obituaries in my facebook feed and on other sites. People who have passed away from terminal illnesses, and sometimes from old age, had written their own obits, and they were funny, sweet, full of gratitude, and very inspiring. I immediately tend to think that myy mother would NEVER feel that way, never believe for a moment that she was particularly blessed. She would never reflect on her life or herself in any way, except to feel sorry for herself.
One of the things I've been involved in for the past 2 weeks is coordinating and confirming the arrangements for her to go to her synagogue's Passover dinner, which is tonight. I had to call her yesterday for another matter (her caregiver called in sick, couldn't get hold of her on her phone, so I made sure the phone was working by calling her and she answered this time). I mentioned the dinner in order to keep it fresh in her memory, and she commented that she thought it was to be that evening (yesterday evening). I said, "No, it's tomorrow-Friday night." As usual, she dismissed what I said, and instead said something about how she'll know for sure if no one shows up that evening -- that she'll know that "they forgot about me."
She just has this poor, forsaken, victim mentality. She's had it all her life, and now with dementia, it'll never be shaken loose. I didn't bother trying to make her understand, I just let it go completely. I haven't called this morning to try again to remind her either. I'm tired of working harder on her social life than on my own, for nothing.

Looking back, I think my mom was always a negative person. She had a tough childhood, but from stories she's told me in unguarded moments, I think she's dealt with severe depression and mental illness much of her life.
For a number of years, especially after divorcing my dad, I think she drank to self-medicate. Fortunately she doesn't drink anymore, because she would drink to the point of falling over, and instead of it being sad, she always said she was being "eccentric."
Anything unacceptable (dating a married guy, getting too drunk, stealing a waitress' tip, stealing a boyfriend, accusing her boss of sexual harassment to get unemployment after quitting her job, or lying to friends and neighbors or making up a fiance or husband for me before I met my husband, it was "eccentric." If I got upset, I was the bad person with no sense of humor; it never registered to her how weird it was when I visited her with my then-fiance and neighbors thought we were married and he was an airline pilot when we weren't and he wasn't, or we betrayed her somehow to exposing her lie.)
I think she blossomed into a pretty woman at around age 14 or 15 and it got her attention and she's rode on that her entire life. It got her negative attention from the family, and I think she milked it to get attention -- other people noticing her (value, honesty, etc. were worthless, it was all for attention).
It didn't matter if it was true or if it hurt anyone else, so long as she got attention it meant she was something, even though now she's a 77-year-old woman with no contacts to family except for a very damaged relationship with her daughter and no friendships that are more than 2 years old. I think she still acts up purely to get attention, but the problem is most people have figured out there's nothing genuine there or there is no empathy or any real give-and-take. And if she doesn't get what she wants, everyone else is the bad guy in the equation and she's the victim, even if it's something as simple as no one being willing or able to go fetch her her cigarettes at that exact moment.

Was she always a negative person? She may be afraid or depressed. Maybe a very nice psychiatric NP could evaluate her. Maybe she could benefit from an antidepressant.
Anyway, cut yourself some slack from her visits. Many people would be grateful to have the care she is able to receive but does not appreciate

jewel, it's really good that you've reached out to your aunt. My dad's family also had my mom's number and interestingly, I've connected with a cousin in the past few years who's been enormously supportive and loving. Never to late, kiddo. And good job on being a functional adult with the birthdays.

I know somedays it doesn't feel like it, but you've come such a long way.

It's so sad how mentally ill your mom is and always has been. Glad that you're going to be seeing a therapist so that you can get some validation that indeed, this is not "normal". This need to see the world and people as black and white, good and evil, the need to control every situation, the inability on her part to be nice to both you and her sister...it's textbook. Move on. Learn techniques to deal with her while you're inevitably with her, but don't expend any energy in trying to please her; whatever you do will be turned against you.

Ha ha Heidi..I know it's not really funny, but it is so true. My mom dictated my kid's birthdays. My parents are divorced and she refused to come to the parties if my dad or his family was there, so like you, I had two parties the first two years of my daughters life. I had a first birthday party with my dad and his family, then did it all again with my mom and her family--now grant it, I had to invited my inlaws to my "moms" party because my mom needed to know she was as important as they are. If I had invited them to my "dads" party then the party was not real--does that make sense? Shew. Finally, when my daughter was 3 I told my mom we would have a party for everyone at meet at a restaurant that had a playground. She agreed that was fine--surprisingly--but after the party, I heard about it until the next birthday. She complained how uncomfortable she was and she wouldn't do that again. So, I decided no more parties for adults only children. I stopped inviting everyone. My dad and his family were crushed--and I do regret it, and my mom was mad because now she was left out. Then when my son was born and had his 1st birthday, I decided I am having ONE first birthday party and who ever could and wanted to could come. Guess who did not show up? You got it...my mom!!! She pouted at me over the party, but I told her she was invited and she chose not to come. She got mad and said that I knew she couldn't come with my dad there and I decided to invite him anyway--again, my fault. Well, this was my son't birthday not hers! I had him a birthday party until he was 8 then it started just being friends night over. My mom refused to come for 8 years. I don't even think she missed out. She would usually show up on the Sunday after his birthday with a cake and gifts, throwing her own party. I didn't like it, but never showed it to my son because he enjoyed the attention.--but she was really the one craving the attention on her own.--selfish!! She only allowed us to be with her on Christmas day, Thanksgiving Day and I had to pick another day to be with my dad--listen, I was an adult when my parents divorced, but I still gave in to her. I have missed out on so many of my dad's family because of her control. When I was pregnant with my son (my daughter being almost 8) my friends had me a baby shower. Once again my mom said she wouldn't come if my dad's mom and sister were there. (how mean) but once again I took her side and didn't invite them. A couple weeks after the shower my aunt called me and asked if anyone was having me a shower since I didn't have any baby things. I told her that one of my friends surprised me with a shower--I didn't have the heart to tell her. It broke her heart because she wanted to give me one or be involved in giving me one. It broke my heart that she was hurt. I regret all that to this day. Now my grandmother is gone and I miss her like crazy. She loved me no matter what. I have since talked to my aunt (my dad's sister) and explained everything. She told me that she and my grandmother knew that my mom controlled the situation and kept me from them. My heart aches when I think of my grandmother and how I didn't stand up to my mom then. I was and am still afraid of my mom. It is scary how someone has such control even from 2 miles up the road.

My mom always showed up when invited when she thought my dad might have a chance to come, she always said yes first. Now, every time she is invited somewhere the answer is always NO! I am glad, but then she accuses me of never asking her to do anything.

If someone looks at my mom she takes it wrong. Someone is always being rude to her and giving her a "look".--her words. Your mom and my mom have the same ideal life. She would love for me to give up my kids, my husband and my life and move in with her; do what she says and do it how she wants it.--I still don't think it would be right because I did it.

Jeweltone, my mom tries to dictate holidays, too. Now that she doesn't talk to any blood relatives, except for me from time to time, she's tried to direct how my holidays go with my in-laws. She belittles and puts them down frequently, too, behind their backs, even though they've always welcomed her with open arms, given her nice gifts, etc.
They know there's no other family because I took my mom's side in her feuds 20 years ago before I realized my mom was the problem, so I think they invite her for my sake and for her sake, too. And still, she puts everyone down.
One time she thought my father-in-law was falling in love with her and my mother-in-law sensed it and was resentful of my mom because my MIL "refused" to give my mom a piece of cake -- basically I think 8 people were talking over each other at a holiday gathering and my mom took a "no" answer to a question from across the room as an insult even though it wasn't directed at her. She brought up this imagined slight for years!
My mom has tried to take over for holidays that my husband and I have hosted, too, throwing her plans and opinions into everything.
One time she decided to take over Father's Day for my father-in-law (my dad is dead) and tried to get everyone on my husband's side of the family to go to a Chinese buffet restaurant, saying she'd treat everyone (which would be about 15 people). My father-in-law doesn't even like those $6 buffet places and thought it was odd for her to host anyways. Of course she was already complaining about what it would cost her, and then was insulted when they declined and refused to go to the family gathering at my in-laws' house.
Maybe an even stranger example of how my mom tried to steer my life: She told me I should dump my husband (when I was engaged) and "go after" his brother because she thought he made more money. Now his brother is a nice guy, but I love my husband! Then when my brother-in-law married, my mom said his wife was exactly what she pictured, this "used-up slut," which I didn't get at all. She's a sweetheart, always is polished and cheerful, and always fun to be around!
Most of the time now, if we are going to my in-laws my mom always agrees to go and then cancels last minute due always "having the runs" or something similar, or she slept badly due to anxiety and simply can't go. If we host, one of us has to pick her up and it's always on her schedule, never ours.
Finally last Christmas, we invited her to the big gathering and she as usual cancelled an hour before we left (which is a running joke now, not if she'll cancel, but when), so we just ignored her. I used to feel bad, but as my husband pointed out, she's been invited by us and his family, and a neighbor always invited her to her Christmas dinner, and she turned both down. It's not like she didn't have options.
I think my mom's ideal family would be me getting her what she wants when she wants it, and a bobble-head that just nods its agreement while she natters on.

Heidi: My mom has done the same thing to almost everyone in her family too. She only allows her sister to do things for her when she is mad a me. When she is needing me, then her sister is out and vice versa. Now she is calling on her sister that lives 1 1/2 hours away. She does her best to come and I have told her not to make it her responsibility. My mom just knows how to manipulate and has done it for years. I wish so many times we had put a stop to this non sense many years ago. My mom has always dictated holidays, birthdays, get togethers, etc. If something didn't go the way she wanted then the whole day was ruined for everyone. She would either stay and be mad then complain about it later, or she would get so mad that sometimes she would "storm" out and let me know all about it later about how everyone was rude to her. I used to kind of believe her about things until I have been care-giving for her and see how it REALLY is. Her aunt would love to come visit her, she is only a few years older than my mom, but my mom won't have it. she doesn't like her right now.--imagine that. She thinks everyone is against her--once again responding to the negative world around her.

Linda: I agree with you 100%, why would we want to go and spend more time when the time is spent in misery. My mom too lets me know what wonderful children the other residents have.--Hello? Am I invisible here? She told my aunt the other day that she is lucky to have kids that care about her. Ugh! Really? My aunt tried to tell her that she is the lucky one, because her kids only call her when they want something, but my mom seemed not to hear her...HA! She only hears what she wants and believes what she believes. I too cannot fathom the thoughts of being hateful to my kids. Mine still live at home so I know they think my rules are mean, but you know what I mean? (my daughter in college and my son in high school). I cannot imagine putting that much guilt on a child. I struggle through being a Christian and I have read the Bible over and over trying to find that it is okay to walk away from all this. The Bible does say to honor our parents, but it also states n Ephesians 6:4, Paul writes, “Fathers, do not provoke your children to anger, but bring them up in the discipline and instruction of the Lord.”--To “provoke . . . to anger” suggests a repeated, ongoing pattern of treatment that gradually builds up a deep–seated anger and resentment that boils over in outward hostility.
My mom truly believes, like your mom, that it is acceptable and okay to say the things they say and treat us with such disrespect. It is NOT ok!!

When my aunt tried to talk to my mom and tell her that a mother has a responsibility to her daughter as does a daughter to her mother, my mom said--verbatim: "Well, we must have different views on how to raise children and what children should do"... apparently my mom thinks that I am only responsible for her--the narcissistic mother.

I really like the idea of the demo!! I wish I could get her out of my head. If I could stop thinking about it day in and day out, I know I could get on with my life and be a bit happier.

There's nothing about this that's easy. My mom recently acknowledged that she knows she's in a miserable mood the whole time, when the visit is too short in her opinion, and there was no mention of that changing. My response was to ask then why would I want to increase the frequencies of outings if I know she's going to be miserable the whole time. No answer.

But longer visits, like this Easter, will give her so much time to get in all the talking points and lay on about all the marvelous daughters of relatives and other residents. I love the time with the family, precious as the kids are adults and get togethers are less frequent. But my force field will be up all day, waiting for the next salvo.

It truly saddens me that there are so many daughters out there, dealing with moms who go thru life "scorching the earth." I have two daughters and cannot for the life of me fathom ever saying or doing to my girls what my mom has found quite acceptable.

We need to keep reminding ourselves that we are darn good daughters, in many cases doing far more for our moms than they did for their own mothers. That we have a healthy sense of balance, knowing that we need to care for our spouses and kids, not making Mama #1 for our whole lives. We need to remember that nothing we do will make them happy so we need to let that go. We need to remember that we aren't going to have their love/approval so let that go to.

We need to do a demo project and eliminate the apartment that our mothers occupy in our heads.

Your story sounds so similar to mine, Jeweltone. I get the same things: "Oh, you're checking I'm alive." "I could die here and you'd never know." "At least strangers like me, since my family doesn't." (Never mind that she has told every member of her family to basically f--- off over the years.)
I usually feel torn up about it. I wonder, if she falls, who will help her. If she feels sick or dizzy or weak or whatever, I know I would hope someone who loves me is keeping an eye out. But she makes it difficult. I've devoted a lot of time to helping her and I'm still the villain because she wants it all her way, which is utter devotion and a heaping side of guilt. I don't expect a statue put up in my name, but it would be nice just to not be treated like the bad guy. If she wants help and charity she needs to accept that it's a kindness and not bad service!

Thanks looloo. I hope it does. The torture just eats at me day after day. I try very hard to put it behind me. I do not feel any different though than I did when I had to talk to her every week and see her every week. It is just a different kind, I guess. It is a gnawing effect that I get wondering and wishing how things could be different. I am with you on how their demeanor starts to change after the day goes on. When I would first go visit, she was tolerable and after an hour or two it become unbearable. She won't just let me visit for an hour or less, I have to hear how I only come for a short amount of time and why do I bother. If I stay all day then it doesn't end well, if I called more than two times a week, it was an argument or the words cut like a knife. There is no "win" in this situation. She loses by being alone and I lose by a guilty conscience. I will continue to move forward and pray for the courage. Thanks!!

Hi Jewel, I felt the same way when I went no contact with my mother for many months. Now, I only call if necessary--and I dread every time I have to do it!
I would also stress out about how to handle major holidays and birthdays and whatnot. Just give yourself time to figure things out, and know that you're never going to "win." Just do what's best for you. It might backfire, but you may surprised to see how little it matters. I send cards, flowers, and gifts. But no more visits. I am relieved that we seem to be civil toward each other when I do have to see her in person, but I don't risk it by staying any longer than necessary.
When I last saw her about a month ago for her doctor's appt., I could "observe" what was taking place without getting sucked in. I could see her mood start to go downhill as I was driving her home, I could sense her trying to provoke a bit, and was grateful like always, that the day's mission was almost accomplished. It will always be exhausting though, because she's always been an emotionally draining person. But that feeling of torture? It WILL fade, I promise!

Heidi--sounds just like something my mom would say. I am not going to call her unless, like you, something happens. If I have to talk to her it will be the same way. I can hear her now--"I am still alive, I have been here and you never checked on me" "I could be dead and you wouldn't even know it". I do not want to hear those things, so I am not going to call. she tells someone that lets me know, that I haven't called and I probably won't come back--but by no means will she call me and apologize. It is just not in her. If she calls me, it will be because she needs something. I am not angry either, just disheartened that it has to be this way. I wake anxious and sad each day and wish for a "normal" life. One free of fear, anxiety, and sadness. I know we all have those things in our life at one point or another, but everyday of it wears on a soul and a body. I think about how Mother's day is approaching soon and what will I do? Will I mail her a card? I have no idea. If I mail a card, I don't want her to call me and make some remark about it, if I don't mail her a card, she will make a remark about how I don't care. Torture, pure torture.

You know, for once I didn't feel angry at my mom.
I hadn't spoken to her in two months after repeated fights.
I called about a couple mundane details and spoke maybe 10 minutes, updated her on some details, like my father-in-law's heart attack and a promotion I got at work.
In those 10 minutes she told me "It's been nice not to hear people talking nasty to me," (meaning me, of course); about my father-in-law, who's recovering slowly but doing well, "well, no one lives forever"; and about the promotion, she wanted to know how much money I was getting.
My approach was to ignore the dig, say "well, he's slowed down some but doing much better" about my FIL'; and "I'm happy about the promotion." It honestly felt like talking to a stranger, and I swear she didn't really give a crap that I'd called.
I almost think she wanted me to get angry or to shame me into thinking poorly of myself.

vsetafans: you said it well. Thank you! I know all these things, but living it is a different story. She has such a hold on me that I cannot even explain it. The counselor called back and I missed her call. I will not give up getting some answers for myself. You guys do a great job giving me the courage and strength I need to continue forward. I cannot tell you how good it makes me feel that you can read exactly what I am trying to say. Each of you always hit the nail on the head.

I will say a couple years ago, when my mom thought she was dying, she did ask me for forgiveness. I always thought she didn't really know what she was doing, but she does. Now that she didn't "die" she has gone back to herself. In my eyes she has retracted the asking of forgiveness. Have I forgiven her? Sure I have, a very long time ago. I do believe that is what gets me through--knowing I do not hold a grudge against her. I am a forgiving person, and I do realize though that forgiveness means that I have let go of what has happened, but I do not have to be around it anymore. I am very glad I can let go of the past, unfortunately my mom holds on to everything that has ever happened to her and continues to build on that mountain everyday. So sad. When she is gone, I will cry for her sadness, not mine.

Jewel - she is getting way too much mileage out of staying depressed, in terms of not having to take any blame or responsibility onto herself. So, now she has driven you away. And now she may or may not even be capable of any insight at all. It may be too late for her to learn that one can be forgiven and one does not have to be perfect under their own power, therefore one can accept whatever blame and responsibility really IS yours, and just try to do better the next day. In other words, join the human race.

BUT - it is not too late for you! Glad you are getting counseling, because your mom's bad life decisions should not take you down with her. You have sen to it she has decent care, and if the whole world does not realize when there are people whose children or grandchildren seem distant and neglectful, sometimes there is a reason for that that lies within the person who is complaining, well, anyone who has been on here or has been through it themselves certainly knows. And it is hard to believe that she has succeeded in making you feel you have done nothing, and yet hard for you to simply believe in your heart as well as your head that her point of view is simply not valid.

Let Mom live her own life where she is as she chooses now - there may be people at the facility who will keep an eye on her and update you, and they will probably tell you she is happier than she puts on for you at least at times. Make sure you let them know you want updates despite going to no direct communication at Mom's request. It is her story, not yours, after all. Yours is still in the making, and you will make it a better one by far.

I know what you mean. I am facing a very similar situation. Sigh....you guys are awesome. Do you all use an app to communicate?

----as far as antidepressants, she has been on so many and nothing works.