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I have to agree with everybody here that your brother needs to travel that road on his own. I would also say a fall in either AL or @ home may not be predictable in the fashion one being more devastating than the other. A fall can happen anywhere. The other issue would be as a close family member can you live with your decision? Guilt seems to creep in. But most influences here would claim you need distance, I agree.
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Thanks, pst ... no support of the move from me. I'm doing as some of you suggested, going out of town during the move. Hope your MIL and especially that one son can survive the move!
Gee, for more records to be straight about my brother, he is one heck of a beautiful person and a good brother. He was so angry at Mom around the time of Dad's passing (rightfully so) that he stayed away from her until very recently. Dad used to beg me to beg him to go see her. This has been over 7 years. He told me he could no longer see his sister taking the whole brunt of Mom's ways, so he re entered her life. We've always lived just a few miles apart, but he wouldn't call her and she's be damned if she'd call him. Can you say...stubborn?

He gets nothing from her and doesn't want anything. He's assured her that she has enough money for the ALF. But he feels sorry for her that she "hates the place", "hates the food", is "wasting precious time" there, and is "wasting the hard earned money that Dad left for her".

In reality, Mom has always hated everything, and that includes most people. Because of you all here, I'm determined to stick to my guns!!! Thank you, thank you, thank you
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amy - you MIL sounds like a gem and it's good you can speak with her about all this. She totally understands that getting along with her kids choices of spouses is what she needs to do - smart move MIL. Now about dealing w/your mother & brother, you have gotten just so many incredible suggestions and ideas from others on this forum to choose from. Stay strong and consistent on whatever you do…..in those nice new big girl pants!
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Your brother is a fool. Lovely lad, I'm sure, but oh my goodness a fool.

So he's thinking poor old mum, I'd hate it too, well if she can't bear it here I can't bear to leave her here, let's get her out and to a place of safety.

Only one tiny gap in the thinking: what, exactly, constitutes that place of safety for somebody of your mother's age, in her current physical condition? That's the bit he's overlooked, not having the knowledge or experience to know what the reality entails.

We'll manage! - is the cry. Where there's a will there's a way! Well, ANYTHING must be better than a place she hates..!

Uh huh. Steep learning curve coming up. Just make sure you stand clear of the fall out.

Better yet, see if you can get him to pay attention before the deed gets done. Less of a shock for him, less long-term risk for your mother. Put him onto AC, write him a daily diary entry highlighting the points at which your mother is at risk of injury, break down the hours, labour, expertise required to keep her safe and (ha!) contented - stick this information under his nose. If he still ignores you, you can take a deep breath and softly say "do not say I didn't warn you."

Um. One more thing. I can tell you from personal experience that when you are very angry with your mother, for one reason or another, there is nothing like hands-on care and daily face-to-face contact to bring that to the boil. I think I must have missed what went on to make your brother feel as he did about your mother, but even so I can say he needs to watch it. It'll be back.
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amy - good for you. I believe that running from something, because your mum (and mine) hates it, does not make for the best decisions. That attitude tends to follow you no matter where you are, and in time she will likely hate it with your bro as well, especially if she has been like this all her life.

I wanted to mention something regarding the ministrokes. My father had ministrokes and ended up with vascular dementia. Your mother could be on that road already. The damage from ministrokes adds up over time. He had them for a number of years, related I believe to poorly controlled diabetes type 2 and high blood pressure.

When talking to my oldest son, who is always a good reality check for me, about mother and her "wants", his comment was that her safety must come before her "happiness". This is especially true when we know that that happiness is very temporary - the adrenaline high from another move and more attention for a while, and will dissipate fairly quickly as it has every other time.

((((((((((hugs)))))))))))) to you. You are doing the right thing by staying firm.
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Amy, I think you need to make a written document, get it notarized, and send to your brother indicating that you disagree with this move, and that you are (from that date) not responsible for her caregiving duties. Something like that. And mail it Certified Mail, restricted delivery to your brother. Be sure to also send copies to the AL, her doctor, any other family members, any family attorney, and for good measure, your mom's local police department and Social Services dept. Tell EVERYONE that you disagree with this move, and protect yourself from being suckered into care that you do not agree to provide.
Another thought---was the rent at the AL too expensive for your mom's assets? It may be that your brother is trying to preserve assets for later care, that aspect is worth exploring. AL's are extremely expensive, and in many cases people move there without having made a thorough survey of their assets and likely years to live. Average AL costs about $45,000 per year, more for higher level of care (3 wellness checks a day), plus any resident has another $6-10,000 of other expenses (clothing, eyeglasses, prescriptions, health ins premiums, income taxes, etc). This is nothing to sneeze at.
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emjo, I always appreciate your hugs. Thank you! Also, your added info about mini strokes is helpful to know. Sometimes I wonder about Mom, but it's always short lived. For example; yesterday she told me that she went for a walk with another resident. "Yes, I know :) I was with you both " Oops! I do that kind of thing to my husband. I must begin taking notes.
Grace, I do see what you are saying, but the jury is out on that one. I suppose I'd rather suffer being dragged in (hopefully that won't happen) than do that to my family. It's a very good point, though. As for the AL cost, brother calculated everything when she went in and told Mom that she has a good 20 years. The ALF here is nowhere near $45,000/year fortunately. Thank you for taking time to answer. Everyone's thoughts give me more to consider.
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Psteigman im happy for you seems like your MIL is going willingly? I agree i think my brother is in total denial of mums dementia and as people have said to me it will hit him the hardest, hes mums golden boy yep he can do no wrong im the bully and more recently a selfcentred B?
And there i was thinking it was just IRISH WOMEN who spoilt thier sons rotten this is why im single im looking for a real man and all you meet here are mummys boys!!!
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Amy my MIL had vascular dementia and the signs are very vague at first especially if she is in a structured situation which mades the memory lapses more difficult to recognize.
As far as mini strokes or TIAs are concerned. They can easily pass unnoticed. They may mix their words for a few minutes or maybe complain one arm has gone to sleep. We noticed little about MIL while FIL was alive because he remained very sharp mentally although physically he was quite ill. He was able to supervise MIL while she could still manage physical tasks. After FIL died MIL went downhill very fast and could no longer manage alone.
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Interesting, Veronica. My ex in-laws were similar, though she did not have V.Dem. but Alz, undiagnosed till her husband died. His body gave out and hers was good, His mind was good and hers was giving out and he had always run the roost anyway, barked the orders kind of thing. As long as he was alive, she functioned fine, as far as anyone could tell. Once he died things fell part, she was diagnosed with Alz, and there was a difficult transitional period until she was placed appropriately. I agree that in a structured setting the depth of the problems may not show. Even at home, my father would appear normal, but have small incidents where sometimes he fell into a deep sleep afterwards for a short while, then wake up seeming normal, but all the time these ministrokes were causing damage that was adding up. Finally it became evident that he needed placement. as mother was still working and needed to, and as she was absolutely the worst person to look after him. (Narcissistic people with personality disorders do not make good caregivers.) His behaviour had become somewhat erratic, for example he stole her keys and drove her car not having driven for a while, he tried to shave his corns, cut himself and trailed blood all over... After diagnosis and treatment in a medical center, eventually he was placed in a tiered facility, which worked very well for him, and his life ended there. RIP my sweet and loving father. We will meet again.
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Aww Emjo, you must have loved that dear man so much {{{huggs}}}. I adored my father. He passed 15 years ago and I've always wished the evil N mother (who treated him like dirt as she did everyone) had gone and I got to take care of him. Although he worked full time, often out of town, he'd run to check on his mother and ensure she had care. My folks lived around the corner from her parents and MIL, didn't work, had a fancy house and big expensive car. She never attempted to help her MIL and refused to lift a finger when her parents were old and frail - God forbid, it would interfere with her lifestyle and she couldn't be bothered.

She wouldn't even take grandma grocery shopping so, in her 80s, grandma walked two miles to the stores and carried her shopping back again. Grandma was a wonderful kind & caring lady and I loved her so much. Over her lifetime she was always taking in stray dogs and other critturs. She had a pet duck once that would quack at the back door to be let in and settle itself between the dogs in front of the fire. I've had big rescue dogs life long and, back in the 80s, I named one Sara Jane in her honour. I'm sure she looked down and smiled :)
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Oh dear.... here's an update on Mom. Thanks to many of you I was able to let Mom know that I can not be her nurse. I paraphrased what you suggested, Countrymouse, and she accepted it without argument or discussion. I had to approach the subject a little sooner than anticipated because she fell in her bathroom in AL. Yes, another fall. This time she lacerated her arm and needed over 30 stitches. (Fortunately, she's healed beautifully.) Dressing changes were required every day and I refused to do them. That was hard, but I CAN'T be her nurse. My brother and I hired a nurse from her place to take care of it until she agreed to have the services of the home care company that is covered by her insurance. (she didn't want those nurses) When she found out that it was costing us $45.00 a change, she told us that we misunderstood about her dislike of the company staff.

Here is today's problem. Two days ago she told my brother that she was going home the next day. That day would have been yesterday. He asked her if she called the people on her list to help, has a list of things she needs at home etc. etc. "No, I can't think about that. I don't know what I need 'till I get there." He has said all along that when she has it all planned he would take her home. My brother was having a little chest tightening when he was with her and that is just not acceptable. She's killing him. She did absolutely nothing for her preparation to go home except pack up her room. Mom and I never talk about her leaving because she knows how I feel. I hate our seemingly superficial visits because I know there's that underlying current of "I'm getting out of this God awful place."

My brother could not go to see her yesterday. He's having a hard time dealing with her and he knows when he shows up she'll have her coat on. What can I do?? We have been living day to day around her, but I am worried about his health. I will be going out of town next week and he will be stuck. I have to see her today and or tomorrow before we leave.

Thank you for your support
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Amy.... he needs to set his own boundaries. You cannot set those for him. He already told her she needed to set up what was needed. If he is having chest tightness it could be anxiety but still needs to be checked out. With your medical background, you should be able to guide him to cardiologist. You just need to continue to stick to your guns. Good job!
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It sounds like you and your brother are starting to form a more united front, which is good (if I'm reading that the right way). Like Norest says, your brother has to be able to deal with mom on his own...it sounds like he's getting there but it's hard for him (as it has been for you). Just support him and back him up, but don't step in for him. He has to deal with this on his own. But do encourage him to get his chest tightness checked out. I'd probably get him to an ER myself. Good luck and thanks for the update - and keep us posted. You two are making great progress!!
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Amy, this is one of the rare occasions when I could wish I were more like my sister. Because this is what she would do (I'm not kidding). She would blast into your mother's room like a whirlwind and say "Mother, you are not going home, you are staying here and you had better get used to it. Now STOP making such a ridiculous fuss, you are making everybody ILL and we are SICK of it." Then she would whirl out again, slamming the door behind her.

Short, unanswerable, effective. And in the long run, better for your mother in that you could all settle down and plan her care properly and with certainty.

The trouble is, my sister's a bitch and I don't want to be like her. I'm sure you don't either. What we somehow have to devise is an equally plain message without the barbed wire coating: does that help, at all?
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Brother is starting to realize his mistake. He may have to tell Mom he is having chest pains and his doctor says he can't take her home until he gets it checked out. SO sorry, but she will just have to unpack again and hang up that coat. Then when he feels the relief maybe he will realize that he's going to have to say no and be firm like you. THANKS so much for the update!!
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He will pick her up, and he will be dead before she is. Thirty percent of caregivers die before their patients do. Alert the ALF to his cardiac issues and recommend they do not release mom to his care.
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Fortunately brother is doing very well. No cardiac issues. Yay. .... Unfortunately he brought her to her house last Monday while we were out of town. We've been back for 3 days and the cold shoulder from Mom isn't pretty. How are you? MUCH BETTER NOW THAT I'M HOME. Brother tells me that he asked her when I got home, who got her coffee etc..... "Oh, Amy did.... don't know when she got home.... she wanted me to die there....."

She packed a bag of every pair of pants I got for her (including some that were mine, but too short for me) and handed them to me. Mom, you'll only have 2 pair to your name that fit you. They're too hard to get on. OK, Mom. (They're gym/yoga pants.) There's more. Kids are here, want me to pick you up for dinner? "NO" Want us to stop by" NO"

This is really one lousy way to be communicating with Mom.I cringe at the thought of calling her. Have to, she has a Dr. appt. tomorrow and a family event on Saturday.

Thank you everyone
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Amy, I think you need to step back from this situation just for a little while. Give "them" adjustment time. Remember, what ever the outcome of this, you are not responsible for it! You are doing great!
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Don't call her or visit. bro got her into this let him handle the Drs apt family event and anything else for a couple of weeks and see how things go.
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I agree with Veronica. Let mom and brother settle into their new routine and stay away for a while. Otherwise, you're right back into the fray.
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Amy hi I just found this page today and want to know how this arrangement worked out you can get ahold of me on facebook Rhonda S. go to message and you can tell me all I work in a nursing home took me longer to regester to send this off
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Amy, they are both about to learn a hard lesson. Stay away. Let them deal with the consequences. Ignore the phone calls. Any help you give now only enables a difficult patient and a brother in denial. Make them see the reality.
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Mom may heve won this battle but she is far from winning the war and her trusty steed (bro) will soon get battle weary as her demands increase
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For strength, I am reading and rereading everything you are all saying to me. The biggest problem I have is the human aspect of the whole situation. Mom was the mom that we'd all feel more than blessed to have yesterday. Husband keeps telling me that it's a ploy, that she wants something and that she hasn't changed one bit.
Yes, I went to her house with food. Couldn't help it, always did that. She looks terrible for a woman who always took pride in her knack for style. Maybe she will get back to her usual routine, but for now, no one is telling her when to get up and get dressed or when to eat. She has one big beautiful "I won!!!!" smile on her face.

I told her I'd call for a hair appointment and did. Rats, at AL the salon was right there. Why can't I stop doing things like this? I will be taking her to today's Dr. appt. because It was planned that way before I went out of town. It's just not right to back out on that one. The event this weekend is a shower that I would have taken her to anyway. When I asked her about going she said, "It depends on how I feel." My plan is to remind her of the time, call her 1/2 hour in advance and if she won't be ready I'm going alone. ... when she was in AL she was always ready for everything, and that included lipstick and eyeliner. Nothing there depended upon how she felt. I just don't get it, she's the same person on the same meds.

Being firm in a kind way is terribly difficult. And, I do have one heck of a good brother who I don't want to hurt. When he walked in yesterday the first thing he said was, "Mom, you better not be being mean to my sister."

Countrymouse, may I borrow your sister for a few hours?
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One of the hardest transitions I've had to make with my mom is to go from daughter to "parent-like" in some situations. I'll go over to help my mom shower and she won't want to. Sometimes she'd cry. I'd be loving but firm, "Mom, I'm here to help you and you'll feel much better after we're done...I'll do all of the work, etc." I'd cajole her and finally get her into the tub. Afterwards she'd feel great and totally forget her earlier resistance. Same goes for taking her out to lunch. "No, I don't feel like it, I'm tired, etc." "Mom, let's go, I'll help you get dressed, you'll enjoy it." And she did. My mom is at the point where she just can't make good decisions about her own care. So I step in and help her out. Does she want my help in the moment? Heck no! Is she happy when we're done? Heck yes!

My point is that your mom may be at a point where her cognitive function doesn't allow her to make good decisions about her life and you and your brother need to step in to help her. And that help (from your side) may be letting her realize she's better off in AL where she has more care. Is it easy? NO! Becoming "the parent" is very tough. But I know in my situation I'm absolutely doing the right things for my mom.
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Amy, do what suits you, what you would normally have done before, and don't lift a finger more than that. But don't go to the other extreme of folding your arms and refusing to have anything to do with her at all, because your mother will gleefully attribute it to your sulking because you didn't get your own way.

Au contraire, she's got her own way. On her head be it. And when, God forbid, she falls flat on her face and winds up back in ER you must at all costs reject all temptation to say "told you so."

Look, she's happy at her home, yes? And you've done all you can to explain the risks. Well then. Anything that happens from here is not your responsibility. Rise above the intense irritation and frustration and be gracious.

Your brother sounds a sweetie-pie - can we swap??! x
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Amy, at some point, talk to mom's doc about a neuropsych evaluation. It sure sounds like she's got some cognitive issues which often present as inability to plan and to see consequences of actions. I'm not like CM's sister but when our mom was insisting she she could live on her own with one of us kids (ha!) getting panic calls several times a day, I sat her down and said " mom, brother is gonna drop dead of a heart attack getting here to rescue you". She got that. Sounds like there needs at some point to be a discussion between you and brother about what is best for mom, not what she wants. Hope he gets there in one piece.
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Nobody can volunteer you without your consent.

If you agree to any part of this crazy new scheme -- ANY LITTLE PART -- than you will get what you deserve.

You need tough love for your mother and brother, but first, and most important, you need tough love for YOURSELF,
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That sounds harsher than I mean it to, but the point is made.

Wishing you the strength that, being the daughter of a narcissistic mother, I often struggle to find myself.
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