My sister is being investigated for taking mom's social security and pension benefits. Can we get all of my mom's money returned back to her?

Your sister has committed a crime. This must be reported to Law Enforcement (Police), and she should be dealt with through the courts.
Hopefully your mother may recover some of her lost money.

This has absolutely nothing to do with a POA.

How very sad it is when sibling rivalry carries over into adulthood and turns into greed. We are dealing with the same issue and my son is trying to not only get all OUR (his parents) retirement funds but is getting his siblings into legal trouble. It is taking a good chunk of our retirement funds to hire the attorneys to fight him but I will not let him continue this if I can stop it. He has mental problems and we have paid for psychological help for him in the past. We pray to have resolution in a few weeks and would invite your prayers too if you are so led. Thanks. Piver - caregiver for husband with Alz.

Katydid *love the name* I am so glad to be of help I am here in hopes my experience will help others. I know every situation is not the same and I am glad you have things in a orderly fashion. I really don't want to burst the bubble but I want to warn you about a few things. I had same intentions for my Mom, to stay in her comfy environment. Then reality for me set in about her condition, after a while no matter where she was physically, mentally she either wanted to be somewhere else, or thought she was in a place different than where she physicaly was. Either way she was lost and confused. So just when I thought everything was smooth It got out of control, she changed. You should prepare for the future events.

dragonflower for greater awareness, and any others interested in the POA subject (keep in mind I am not an expert) I have a very trusting, non greedy lawyer who takes all things into consideration before advisement or finalizing anything legally and he learned from my experience with POA needing to be specifically worded. My papers were written to cover all the basis so he/we thought. My Mom had an IRA type of account, and papers clearly state as POA I can use the power for such an account. When I needed to use the POA papers to arrange her finances according to Mom's needs or even discuss anything about the account my Papers were not specific. The legal department where funds were held would not accept them. They wanted the specific account name and number and any action I were to take to be stated in detailed wording. So luckily I was able to do so before Mom wasn't able to sign as legally competent. Although I am still stuck with another issue on same subject Mom set up a federal income tax amount to be withheld from her pension when she retired, not taking into consideration that this matter was also going to be an entirely different issue, although it is same company but a different matter, they will not grant me the power to change this action. Although the government is getting that money and she's now on medicaid, this is included as her income and I cannot change it. IRS does not use the POA papers either. I'm still trying to work it out. In reality if the papers say you have medical authourity you do if they don't you don't, it's all up to the words on those papers and who is interested in what the specifics are legally.They are only good during life not a second after. The words should be accurate for accounts and wishes for health needs and any fund transfers or gifts the grantor wants to agree to and leave no details out. I share this type of info in hopes someone else can benefit and ease the stress. This process from submitting first set of POA papers to approval of second set took six months before I got approval. You have to always be one step ahead.

Thank you so much Wuvsicecream for all the great information. My brother who lives 4 hours away is wonderful and he has come up when he could to help with mother's finances. Finally, finally, finally, after many prayers and being respectfully kind and gentle, we have gotten her to allow my brother to have POA and to be put on her checking account. He is going to have all her bills re-routed to his home and pay her bills from there. He's taking care of her insurance, taxes and financial responsibilities. I am the one to take her to doctor appointments, dentist and see that she is taking her meds properly and all the other chores plus see that repairs to her home and vehicle are done. She wants to stay in her own home (more like barricading) and live out her life that way. Time will be coming where I will have to have someone come in because I will need a break. You have given me a lot of good information to digest and I thank you again for sharing with me. All my brother and I want is for her to be comfortable and happy in her own surroundings.

To sum up all of these issues is "CRASH COURSE"
{I am not an expert but I learned this all from experience}
When dealing with Dementia as a family member becomes in need of 24/7 care and needs a trusted person to step in and take over, that "TRUSTED" person suddenly becomes a nurse, dr., lawyer, secretary, personal driver, all together a brain for the Demented persons daily needs. So the "CRASH COURSE" begins.
Therefore study what these issues are. Dementia is defined as mental deterioration, impairment of mental capacity, this is caused by many things. So first step is correct diagnosis. Then comes nursing skills edjucation of meds and effects and interactions with other meds all of this, if managed correctly helps with mental stability. In order to accomplish this it takes legal papers to do so for medical and financial issues to be in "TRUSTED PERSONS" legal control. That is when POA comes in play inorder for a person to act as POA (no matter what type) they are legally responsible for any actions taken with this granted power. POA is illegal when abused, another words if not used for the "benefit of" the person who granted you POA you are responsible for misusing the power. The words on the POA are specifically stated as to what specific power. Ex: if the papers state you can cash a check for $100 and flush a $100 a day down the toilet you are legally allowed to do so no question. When the papers are signed they are in effect and legal as long as the person granting power at the time of granting that power have not been ordered by Judge in court of Law as incompetent. In that case you need to have guardianship granted by judge for the same purpose. So if you are POA and bank OK's your papers to sign in Mom's behalf as her agent on her checks, you can sign them, but, if you use that money to buy anything but something for Mom's sole benefit that is illegal. If Mom can sign checks herself (Durable POA is before or after) and writes a check to grandchilds bday for $20.00, POA is not used so no question reguardless of POA wording, as long as she hasn't been found incompetent. SS is a different matter, if SS checks are deposited into Mom's account set up by Mom prior to POA needed same law applied. If found incompitent SS does not accept POA and someone needs to become a representative payee to be granted for the ability to use the money for the "benefit of" and clear records of this logged. Abuse or mishandling of these funds also illegal. Simply if you have the Power don't abuse it. I do not know what happends if you do. I would not want to face the judge or God or live with myself after that. When I first faced this reality my head was spinning I knew nothing but I researched and learned from reading and the rest well I think My focus was Mom and an Angel was there to guide me and protect Mom, Pure heart and Good Intentions go along way. Don't focus on money, focus on life. God created man...man created money. A tree lives for sun and water and will grow stronger with age, mans disrespect and foolishness will destroy the tree for pleasure or power and will later cry because he needs the tree for shelter and the air he needs to live.

Ooops, forgot something, Katy

Yes, Mom still knows me, calls me "her baby". Most of time she doesn't remember my name, but says she knows I am her baby.

By 2013, it will be law that all SS checks be directly deposited, until then they can be mailed to the recipients designated address. A Power of Attorney may be written to encompass all aspects of your elderly one's affairs. That includes health issues as well as financial issues. POA's become effective when they are signed by both parties...regardless of the mental status of the person it designates.

POA notwithstanding, it is illegal to take the mother's social security money. By law, SS checks now have to be deposited directly into the elderly person's bank account. A POA is NOT for medical matters....that is a healthcare proxy. POA is for financial matters, real estate, etc. Most POAs for elderly people are worded so that they don't "kick in" until the person becomes incompetent. It may be that the physician falsified records to make the person appear incompetent....in which case he is in deep trouble.

Your sister has stolen from your mother...plain and simple. It's your sister's responsibility to pay back the money that she "stole" from her own mother. Your mother's pension and SS money does NOT belong to your sister....it belongs to your mother.

Wow......I cannot believe how unbelievably EVIL some adult children seem to be, stealing from their parents, finding ways to usurp the parents' SS checks and pensions to supplement their own person income. Yikes. The best prevention for all people over the age of 65 to start putting their assets into a trust so that cannot happen.

Hi, Katy

My mother first was diagnosed with moderate dementia. Her doctor said that she could not live alone, cook & drive so she moved in with me in first week of December 2008. Her house is near my place, but she does not own it. Just Life Estate. After one year of her staying with me, her stepson sued to take the house so I got an attorney to protect her rights. That's when I got POA to handle her affairs while she still had mind to be aware of things. She did not join Plan D for prescription drugs as I had discovered too late in January of 2009 so we had to pay for her meds in full for one year (I tried to fix for her, but Medicare said deadline was Dec. 31 so I was too late, they wouldn't make an exception. I hadn't known that she did not join Plan D!) Then when Jan. 2010 arrived she finally got her prescription meds reduced then quickly reached the donut hole so we used her credit card until it got maxed out plus paying for that attorney was sucking money from us.

Then she started to get confused more and more so I took her to her doctor. He said her dementia was now advanced. She still was manageable until early this month. She started to wander, wanting to go outside and crying, etc. I was so worried about her due to my deafness so I nearly had no sleep keeping an eye on her so I called her doctor. He said for me to bring her to ER which I did. She checked out fine physically so they sent her to Behavioral Health unit to be evaluated and found that she needed to go to a nursing home for her safety.

As for her bills I am going to call and ask them to reduce so that we could pay off. She only has 3... Bank of America, Shell and CareCredit. I hope they will get reduced by 60% rather than filing for bankruptcy. Maybe it's better to file for bankruptcy on her behalf, but I think it may not be a good idea, not sure of this.

As for her checking account. When SS put my name as Representative Payee, I went to her bank, they told me it would be no problem that I write checks on her behalf to pay for bills and things she need, etc. so I didn't put my name on her account. It's a small town here so they know me.

I will find out more what Nursing home will do with her SS and how soon they start taking it. Medicare pays for her care up to 20 days then Blue Cross Blue Shield pays up to 100 days before Medicaid kicks in. It's been so gruesome for me having to deal with all of this. I hate to deal with my deadbeat siblings. One sister in Texas, I haven't heard from her for over a year, her son in California, he never came here for two years and another sister in Ohio has been very nasty to me via facebook and emails, calling me "manipulative and controlling". Ugh! Since I found this site I am amazed that it's very common for siblings to treat caretakers bad.

oh it was not my sister (I only have a brother). It was Italianbabs sister.
I would like to know what I am looking at for advanced Dementia. Since my mother has not had it but for about 1 1/2 years, I am beginning to see the decline now. Is your mom able to care for herself at all now? They say Dementia goes on into Alzheimer's. Can your she remember who you are now? My mom knows me for sure, still, and my brother. She knows my sons, but has to study them to make sure she knows them. She does not know who was in sequence order by birth though. As far as their names, she usually does not remember their names. She knows my daughter but since she saw a picture of a rose tattoo on my daughter's leg , my mother now thinks my daughter is the scum of the earth. She is very ugly to her, so my daughter prefers to not want to be around her anymore.
About your paying your mother's bills, are you on her bank account. If you have POA that is some plus for you, but if your mother cannot sign you onto her account, you will have to go to the bank and show them the POA. If they know she is in a nursing home, the bank may allow you to be on her account. If not, you will have to get a doctor to sign off and write a letter for you. If that doesn't work, then you can get an attorney and that will solidify everything. You can get all her mail changed to come to your house after this, probably after she is in the nursing home. You know she is not going to be able to have bills sent to her in the nursing home, your the one that is her POA, so this will help you. Good luck with this and I hope this may be of some help. She is lucky to have you on her side!

My mother has advanced dementia so I am her POA and Social Security Rep. with my name on her SS checks, but they're always deposited in her own account without my name. Has been this way for two and half years now. She's heading for a nursing home this coming Monday. I did paperwork at that nursing home, they will take over her SS money if I understand this correctly, but will need to ask questions later here because I am unsure how to pay her bills. I hope you can get things resolved soon. The way your sister is doing doesn't sound right to me.

I think your sister will have a hard time trying to persuade the Protective Service People to be on her side. After an allegation like this is filed, they will look at her disapprovingly. Of course, they have to look at it like a judge and jury will, but once an allegation like this is filed, usually they will really watch your sister closely. If she tries to convince them she is innocent, they still have that allegation as their first suspicion of her. Trust your instincts, don't be afraid and pray, pray about this. Rightousness always wins out in the end. As far as the stolen wages, only a lawyer can answer that question. Maybe the Protective Service People could lead you to the right person to contact. I'm on your side hon, so stay calm and confident, God is on your side and so am I.

Your mom getting her money back is going to depend on the wording of the POA document. It could be that your sister's action conformed to the demands of the document. If this is the case it will most likely have to go to court for a judge to rule. Regardless, if your sister did take the money for her own benefit, she is the lowest form of life I can think of. As for Protective Services, it has been my experience that they are very much on your mom's side and will do everything they can to help up to and including the State Attorneys Office. Good Luck. I hope your sister simply returns the money.

Itallianbabs,
You all just got screwed and so did you Mom. It is always interesting when people get into a position of control. (Especially the 8 weeks notice things would change.) It will be expensive but get a good lawyer who knows the courts and 'elderly issues'. I don't know if you can retrieve the money in the long run, but what she/he did is wrong. There are few legal rulings. Most are on a case by case bs... Have experienced this with my Aunt and her stepdaughter and found there is noting that could be done. However, if the money needs be there for her upkeep & well being, then you have a case in any forum. Pursue all legal options.

Wow, what a mess! Okay, here is what I would do if faced with this. #1...hire a new attorney if Mom's current one doesn't get this straightened out immediately. #2...make a complaint with the State Board of Healing Arts against the doctor. #3...have the attorney draw up a new POA giving you all financial and medical responsibility. #4...call the bank and get all information from them that they used to give the money away. #5...get a new doctor. #6...call Social Security and have Mom's check mailed directly to her. #7...press theft charges against your sister. It takes 5 min to sign a POA and it's legally binding. Why 8 wks? The doctor and your sister cannot make a new POA. If the doctor did that refer to #2, that is unethical and he is in deep trouble.

A POA can be written in any manner....some are only for medical, some are financial, some are both. The one that we have for my mil gives us control over every aspect of her life.

I wish you luck with this.....it won't be easy, but you will be able to overcome this for mom.

It is illegal. I have a special needs son. I have POA. I am his pay representee under Social Security. Even with these, my son's SSI must be deposited in an account with his name on the account--it must be his account. It cannot be a joint account with anyone. That is what Soc Security Reps told me. That is the law. My name is also on the account as payee representative--but I am not a joint account holder. There is a very specific way this bank account must be opened. If the Social Security Rep hasn't done this already telling your mom, you can take your mom to a bank, open up an account in her name, and give that bank information to Social Security for direct deposit into that account that is in her name only.. If you have POA for financial stuff for your mom and she needs help with financial stuff, you can have Social Security designate you as a payee representative and then have the bank open the account that way so that no one can put on a joint owner. The Social Security reps were very clear with me...that SSI could not be deposited even in a Supplemental Special Needs Trust because the account MUST be in his name. I'm not sure about if your mom was declared incompetent and your sister is the guardian. Even so, as guardian, she would have to give an accounting of how the funds were spent.

If your mom is considered incompetent, I believe you can set up a guardian and a separate trustee who could also be the payee representative. Put her money in a trust with the trustee being the one who writes the checks/pays the bills. There is probably a kind of trust for this situation which provides accountability and oversight.

Once Social Security has done the investigation my guess is that not only will the money have to be returned but your sister may also be prosecuted. Unless your mother is declared incompetent, the Social Security people will require that they talk to her directly.

If your mom is ok enough mentally, you may need to talk with her about who she allowed to be put on her accounts/CD's. If your sister is on these accounts this has to be changed also.

thats good well i hope everything goes well for you

We have a new doctor's appointment next week. She did have an active POA from 2002 but she should never have put it into effect as mom is not incompetent.

ok there are several .p.o.a there is the medical and there is the d.p.o.a yes there is a difference but i was in a situation like this recently and yes i was on my dad accounts thats what you need to look at ..is ur mom incompetent or is she able to make decision there is where you WILL problem trust me i know. my family ended up taking me to court but they didnt get anything i admit i made mistakes but i didnt think with me giving up my life for 7 yrs and not working no income my dad gave permission to use his money i hope your sitituation is not like my family all they wanted was money they did all the legal way of pulling eveyrthing from me but my dad sighed on his own he was competent to do so. but my family was looking for money for them and it didnt work i had d.p.o.a i had medical p.o.a and there was nothing they could do but get a lawyer and they ended up with....nothing he lawyer took their money and still really didnt accomplished anything it will be hard to do IF your mother signed anything over to ur sister you will half to get a corut order a lawyer and so forth so good luck cause i ended up not paying nothing why??? cause they were all full of GREED...

IB:

Like I said, I'd lock her up together with that Quack. For the moment, the Lady you're talking about seems to be an ally that you can't trust. Believe what you feel and have a Plan B. ... Money can make people do strange things, so read everything thoroughly -- especially the fine print. Good luck.

-- ED

First off I would change doctors for sure, he should be in some kind of trouble as well, if she was not incompotent and he falsified info to say that she was he could be in big trouble. Did she actually have a active poa or did she just act like she did?

She is not incompetent but my sister works for the doctor and he wrote some kind of note that was not in my mother's chart. Sister had my name taken off medical information so I didn't know what was going on. Mom had it re-instated. She took over mom's finances and that was fine but now she is trying to get back at me for money that mom gave my family during medical crisis and it's all about control. She had info from the doctor that something legal was coming and that is when she changed all the accounts.

If your mom is not compotent, her poa was not active in the first place. How was she allowed to get all of this money from your mom. Also I thought poa was only for medical I thought for the money issues it was called somthing else? Your sister may be in for some trouble if your mom is compotent.

She was POA in the beginning. She did the $30,000 just recently while we were waiting for the POA to be changed. She is a friend of the doctor and he told her mom's lawyer contacted him for competency issues related to my mother. He never did answer the attorney so they just changed the POA anyway. So she knew she was probably going to be revoked and had 8 weeks to remove all mom's money from all over the place. She also tried to get money out of her IRA but the company rejected her. I just want to know if I can trust this lady as mom has had enough. Lady said mom is no way incompetent and her new POA request must be honored and sister must turn it over.

IB:

Did she have POA? ... Permission or not, what she did is outright immoral. I'd lock her a__ up and throw away the key. Stealing from your own mother?