Hello, My mom is 88, has always been emotionally immature and self-absorbed (no dementia). I've never set many boundaries with her. She doesn't 'get' boundaries. Example- She's always called me and talked and talked(!) about nothing and I've listened. So draining. Over the years, I've asked her to not call so much. I don't even like talking on the phone, am a total introvert. She doesn't stop. She cries when I ask her to stop. I would describe her as on the low end of the narcissistic spectrum. But since January, things have escalated...
In Jan., my stepdad (age 95) and mom got Covid. He died of it. She is ok now, but it affected her heart and kidneys. My brother and I (1 brother, no sisters) have spent SO MUCH TIME dealing with her- doctors, hospital stays, moving her to an independent living facility, doing her finances, groceries, etc., etc. (I live 5 hours from her; my brother, 1 1/2 hrs.) My mom has always been needy and dependent. She expects us to do everything for her now. My brother? Jumps through hoops to do whatever she wants. I help, but I don't jump.
About 6 weeks ago, I reached an 'aha' moment realizing that my mom is a covert narcissist. She has many bad behaviors toward me, but they've gotten WAY worse. (And it's not from grieving.) She bullies me. She compares me to other daughters my age. I've asked her to stop. She doesn't stop. Too, she has always interrupted and talked over me. I've been speaking up for myself the last few weeks. I ask her over and over to stop interrupting me. She's interrupting when I'm asking this! It. Does. Not. Stop.
To everyone else, she's this sweet lady. To me, she's the opposite. I've been calling her out on her bad behaviors lately. She doesn't like it and turns things around and blames me. She yells at me. In July, she went into a RAGE. I hid in her condo bathroom to get away. She hides her bad behavior from others. The rage was when my husband went to do a curbside pick-up. Of course, she stopped right before he got back.
In the past several weeks, I've read 22 books (no kidding!) about emotionally immature, self-absorbed, and narcissistic parents. Wow, did they open my eyes!! They describe my mom to a T. I see patterns now over and over (from decades!). My brother, whom I felt so close to most of my life, is now treating me differently. I'm pretty sure my mom is triangulating. I see my brother is the Golden Child. And I am the Scapegoat. My brother's wife has always treated me passive-aggressively. Now, I feel this united front of the 3 of them against me. My husband totally sees it too. It's distressing and disturbing.
Last night, I lost it with my mom over the phone. She doesn't understand why I don't want to talk to her on the phone and only want to correspond by text or email. I told her I'm treated kinder that way. She doesn't listen though because she's interrupting me! She was yelling at me. And sadly, I was yelling back. I'm so very angry with her. She DENIES all her bad behavior. She denied going into a RAGE in July. Huh?! She denies comparing me to other daughters though she does it over and over. She gaslights. Her answer when I tell her something she said was hurtful? "I never said that!"
I am accomplished in my field, have a master's degree and also play the piano. My mom didn't go to college, has no hobbies, is not musical. (I'm way more like my dad, who passed away 31 years ago. I miss him so much.) On top of everything else, I think she's envious of me too. I have a good marriage, 4 wonderful grown kids, and 4 adorable grandkids. My life is good. Except for the relationship with my mom. It is eating away at me. Too, last night my mom asked 2x why I don't get along with my brother now. I wanted to (though I didn't) scream that she's manipulating our relationship and causing the rift! Everything channels 'through' her, has for many years.
My question- Do I go grey rock? Or should I write my mom a letter/email explaining why I feel so mistreated by her?
If you’ve read 22 books about this in the last few weeks, you have been dwelling on your problems and her behaviors in a way that has NOT made it all easier to cope with. It might help if you do cut contact or go grey rock for a while, without burning too many bridges. Things may feel differently in a few months’ time.
Get out of your victim mentality
Learn to forgive your mom. Understand she can only do as much as she knows. When you know better, you do better
She raised you as best as she could, with the resources she had
Instead of focusing on how mom is this or mom is that, focus on you and your healing. Make this about you and what you need to feel better.
You don’t need to justify or explain yourself to anyone. Ally with yourself, love yourself and begin to heal….
I suggest reading into books about the unmothered child. This May provide healing for you in regards to not receiving the guidance or love you’ve ever needed from your mother. Self-love, self-love, self-love!!!
You are worthy of healing. You are worthy of healing. You are worthy of healing!!!!!!
When we stop blaming others (getting out of victim) and lean into ourselves with a grateful heart, true magic and healing can come.
excited for you to take this new journey! You worthy my friend
I wish someone had pointed that out to me aged 17.. aye.. a few bottles of gin & a trip 'round the world taught me instead 😉
My daughter's friend was going through a very hard patch recently & I heard some 'it's coz of Mum' creep in. When we talked about her Mum, she had been abandoned, fostered & brought up to be the farm hand. I felt the penny drop for her & saw the blame then shift onto Granny... we then discussed her life as one of 10+ on a farm & the hardship tales she told. In the end we joked about blaming Eve!
Moving on from *this is what happened/happens* to *this is what I can do now* is such an important step.
Now that you've read so many books on the subject, you know you can't change your mother into who you'd like her to be, same as I can't change my mother into who I'd like her to be. Sad but true. So you have to do what YOU have to do to make YOUR life easier to bear. If that means you write her a letter and mail it, do it. If it means you write a letter and burn it, just so you're able to get those feeling OUT of your head and onto paper *which often helps*, then make THAT happen. Whatever helps YOU through the situation, do it.
Know that whether you tell her vocally or in writing why you feel mistreated by her, SHE will take offense to your words. SHE will be the 'poor soul' who's been mistreated by YOU, because in reality, these women are the ones who are the queens of playing The Victim card, not US. So it's an exercise in futility to try and make her understand your position. They've never made a mistake before, remember? It's always someone else's fault for what's gone wrong in their life. That's how they operate. So if you tell her she's done X Y & Z to you, she'll turn it around and make it YOUR fault. That's the bottom line. No accountability and no responsibility, that's our mothers.
So it's time now to set down some very strong and firm boundaries about what you are willing to do for mother moving forward from here. You'll call her on X day every week or every month; you'll visit on X day every month, or whatever. You'll help pay her bills, or you'll order her snacks from Amazon to be delivered to her ALF, like I do for my mother who lives in Memory Care AL. Decide what you'll do and not do, and that's it. Preserve YOUR sanity the best you can by making rules that you don't break under any circumstances. She'll try to GET you to break the rules, then say AHA! I got her! But you won't let that happen b/c you know better. And that's how you protect YOU. Mother will be taken care of by the staff at the ALF and if you're the POA or the point of contact for her, THEY will call YOU if some emergency happens. And trust me, they will call you.
Just in case you haven't read enough yet on the subject, here's a good article that pinpoints 25 signs of a covert passive/aggressive narc:
https://lifelessons.co/personal-development/covertpassiveaggressivenarcissist/#3
I found it very helpful for me, personally. I refer to it often and I like Debbie Mirza's other publications and podcasts, etc. She has some good coping strategies to use, too, which is helpful for those of us stuck in these types of relationships, God help us.
Wishing you the best of luck trying to establish boundaries with your mother and not allowing her behavior to eat YOU up inside. Allow yourself to know you're 'enough' w/o needing her validation of that fact! Sending you a big hug!
extremely helpful answer. hug!!!
i hope you’re well and your husband.
hugs!!
i think there is no solution really: only low contact or no contact.
God help us, yes.
they always return to abusing. even during calm monuments, the abuse will always come back.
part of the reason this never stops is that they enjoy abusing us. it’s fun for them, makes them feel good.
…some people feel good encouraging others.
…some people feel good kicking others down.
mothers are sometimes very cruel to their daughters.
loverofbooks, i don’t think you have a victim mentality at all. you are a victim, plain and simple. i also understand you reading about the subject a lot. i did too. reading, just like this website, one feels understood/empathy.
not obsessive. you’re simply in pain, looking for ways out.
these abusers don’t change.
as long as there’s contact, they’ll keep abusing. with low contact = less opportunity to abuse us.
loverofbooks, in general, i think it’s better not to say one is doing low contact. everything you say/do, she’ll use it against you.
by saying less, there’s less to use against you later.
hug!!!
they abused us as a child…then we became adults/left home…then they became elderly/need help…we kindly help/they re-start all the abuse.
courage to us all.
bundle of joy
I agree with the poster who said to stop with the victim mentality. It's a label for yourself just like "narcissist" is one for your mom. Again, what's the value in that?
I also agree that you're worth more than all this, and frankly you've wasted far too much of your time obsessing on it.
Just dumb things down to this: As your mother's children, you and your brother are responsible for ensuring that she is safe and cared for and has a roof over her head. Anything else you give to her is just gravy and entirely of your choosing. I suggest you get into some therapy to learn how to actually make this happen, and put the pop psychology books away.
Get some help from an actual professional, and stop arguing with an almost 90-year-old. It's like a dance between the two of you, and you need to learn how to change YOUR behavior, because you won't change hers.
Actions speak louder than words -- don't HER actions tell you who she is?
Just go grey rock or low contact and don't give her any of your emotional energy.
How often do you go see her? You mention her going into a rage because you and your H were doing a curbside pickup? Was this because you refused to do in-store shopping? Because you refused to take her to the store?
If you live 5 hours away from her and your brother 1.5 hours away, does he go to see her more than you do? You wrote that he jumps through hoops for her. What kinds of things does he do for her? Does your mother live alone? Just curious...and he has a good relationship with her? Do both of you have POA/HCPOA?
A lot of your mother's actions sound so much like my mother's. I was never a good enough daughter for her, I came to find out. A lot of things come out in dementia when the filter is lost.
The only thing that is a shame is the deterioration in your relationship with your brother. Do you think that can be repaired eventually?
I feel for you because I too have a mother with NPD, and I get the damage they do. But to the outside world, she was just fine. She made sure her children knew to keep her secrets.
It takes a long time and a lot of mental work to understand the damage and get past it. Some things we may never get past, and that's why things like grey rock or no contact are needed-- for your protection. Good for you for being pro-active and doing research to better understand this complex and sick disorder.
You probably read in your research that gaslighting is a common tactic used by those with NPD. They deflect blame, and try to make it look like you are the one with the problem, the one who has a "victim mentality". Stay far away from those types.
THE NARCISSIST'S PRAYER:
That didn't happen.
And if it did, it wasn't that bad.
And if it was, that's not a big deal.
And if it is, that's not my fault.
Good luck loverofbooks, and I hope you will stick around. There are MANY of us here on this forum that get you 100%.
But any time I confronted her? "I never said that! I never did that!" It makes me insane. Denies, denies.
One thing that has helped is considering how she grew up. Her parents fought constantly. Lots of yelling and anger. I think her means of coping with her home life was to keep the peace. Smile, be nice, be quiet, be pretty, don't make waves! Be a good girl! She survived by ignoring the bad things and pretending they weren't there. I think she lied to herself so much, and has done it for so long, that she's fooled herself that bad things never happened. I can't convince her to face things, so no point in bringing them up anymore.
That said, I have an issue with "she did the best she could". So many times people confront their parent's wrongdoings, and the parent throws their hands up and says "Well, I did the best I could!". NOPE. Doing the best you could would have meant seeing how you were hurting your kids and at least tried to resolve those issues with yourself. Knowing to not take your anger or issues out on your kids. To not make the mistakes your parents did. Or that your kids deserve an apology.
I also don't subscribe to the "you have to forgive". Some things just are not forgivable. Of course it’s not beneficial to let anger and hate fester either. Maybe one get to a point when they forgive, and that's great. Just saying it's not always required to heal. Accept that bad things happened, that you won’t get the apology you want and need, and leave it behind.
You can send it just don't expect her to respect the boundaries you establish.
Frankly from what you described I am surprised you answer the phone when she calls and not let it go to voicemail. I am surprised that you don't hang up the phone when she goes on and on. A simple "mom, I gotta go" then a hang up. no explanation needed, just hang up.
Bottom line...you do what you need to do for yourself. And for your family.
I think you should tell your mother you can come once a month with her items and that is it. She can balk but she is mistreating you and you don't need that in your life. Does she have any interest in your grandchildren?
Let your brother decide what he wants to do since he is adding more difficulty to the situation. This can drag on if you let it. Hope you arrive at a solution and can stick with it.
i agree! hug!!
For the difficult phone conversations:
1 - let it go to voicemail
2 - answer and say that you can't talk right now
For difficult in person conversations/rants:
1 - Leave the room
2 - Go to the bathroom
3 - Tell her that it is time to end the visit for that day
4 - Try to change to another topic when you see the escalation starting
For your brother and his family:
1 - Build the relationships around everything that doesn't involve your mom
2 - Limit discussions about "touchy subjects"
3 - Make an appointment with your SIL to talk things over
These are just examples of tactics you can take. You can do this!
Mare sure you do not holler at her and remain calm.
Let her know what ya'll both need to do to be able to continue you seeing her and if she doesn't think it can happen or doesn't want to change then let her know whatever you decide like you're only going to text or e mail her or you're not going to have phone conversations with her and only going to visit once a month or whatever, just let her know what you feel you can do.
Maybe your brother will understand once mom starts calling him too much.
why did she do this?
i think because of jealousy. i don’t think she would have told the truth as to why she did it.
why did she do it?
because some people (often a mother) feel good/great kicking others (normally the daughter) down.
1 woman against another woman.
hug!!
As others have noted: if she will not stop when you ask her to, then the only option is to remove yourself from the situations that you want to stop. Tell her you'll call her at a specific time but that you will not pick up at other times. Only go visit her when others are present. If she's trying to turn others against you, then talk to them frankly about the situation, (you don't need to convince them, just inform them - they then have another side other than hers, and can do what they want with that information) and tell them what you're doing as a result (changing contact methods, reducing contact, etc.) so that information comes through YOU rather than her. If you write her a letter, then send them a copy, too, again, so they know what was said and what your boundaries are.
That's all you can do. You can't control her, and you can't control your brother. You can only control what you do and what you are present for, and removing yourself from an abusive situation is your right. Good luck.
She is a narcissist and will twist everything around so she is the victim while you are the bad one.
Just do it and walk away with no contact until she is prepared to repent ( repent means you admit what you did, apologize for it, ask for forgiveness and make amends where appropriate ). Speaking from experience that will be the last contact you have with her.
It all sounds great but the mother will never as you say "repent" or apologize, or try to make any amends. If by some chance she actually does, it would be a miracle.
The only time a narcissistic and abusive elder will ever make some effort at contrition is if they need or want something and there's no one else to get it for them. None of them are actually sincere and will resume the abusive behavior and manipulation until the next time they want or need.
Write the letter to her- but do it for YOU! (since realistically, that is the only one who will care about the words written, YOU). Forgive me if I sound harsh, that is not my intention; I just want to emphasize that you will not convince her of any wrongdoing, she will not change, and I hate to see another daughter, so hopeful amid the insanity, go through the hurt and disappointment that only a mother can bestow upon them. Do not continue to hope that there must be something you can do to make her understand or change the way she treats you; doing so will lead to your own destruction. Instead, hope for acceptance- your acceptance of the way she is and will always be. Knowing and accepting are very different things and I have found that until I accept something, I cannot get over it or handle it in a non-self destructive way. You are at the best place you can be here on agingcare.com; you will find the best people who will unconditionally give you their opinions, thoughts and care. The things our mothers are/were totally oblivious to.
Writing can be very therapeutic. It was for me. I wish you the best.
susan xoxoxo