What do most of you do to forestall diarrhea?

What you might do is keep a sort of diary and for every episode of diarrhea, jot down details such as what she ate, what activity level/tolerance she had that day, meds, whether she had dairy that day, and so on.

You might begin to see a pattern and then you can eliminate the cause. I do not think taking immodium regularly is going to benefit her in any way at all...especially considering her, and most all elderly folk's, tendency toward constipation. There is an underlying cause for the diarrhea and it might be exacerbated because of her age but her age is not the cause.

I went through this very same thing with my own mom and what the cause turned out to be, for her, was fatigue! When she overdid it and was too tired, she had loose stools! And she has always been constipated ever since I can remember, so I hesitated to give her immodium even just once in a while. Many older people have what I think of as 'bowel obsession' and the less articificial interference, the better.

As far as constipation, if she likes Raisin Bran. it truly works wonders! My mom is now bed-bound but eats it 2 or 3 times a week and has never been more regular in her life! Which is crazy, really...but true. You might try that for the other extreme. And if she doesn't like raisins, then I'm sure that other bran cereals might work just as well.

I have heard and read that coconut is helpful. If sugar isn't an issue with your mother, coconut macaroons might be something to try. Good fiber content, too.

The alternating between diarrhea and constipation, and sensitivity to certain foods, sounds like Irritable Bowel Syndrome.
The best ways to stop it are to remove the foods that irritate most:
dairy, and grains are at the most common top of the list for most.
Also, make sure a good multiple probiotic and good fiber are consumed daily.
That would be preventative maintenance.

Also, make sure they are not getting sudden intake of a higher-fat meal:
fats in a sudden intake, when person usually gets lower fat meals, can cause almost immediate diarrhea! Gma decided to have a couple tiny cups of real egg nog one holiday, and barely got as far as the bathroom before everything cut loose.
A High-fat meal, when one is not used to them, begets rapid evacuations!

Emergency gastrointestinal solutions might include:

===Probiotics: a product with a longer list of types.
For instance: Acidophilus can stop diarrhea, but Bifido-bacteria help keep stools loose in someone who is prone to constipation. Acidophilus is in the PDR, so it can be prescribed and covered by some insurances.
All the Probiotics help better nutrition, help stabilize moods, help overall health. Probiotics help prevent bad bacteria and other bad germs from being problems.
Having a broad-spectrum, high-count Probiotic product [capsules], that stores in the refrigerator, helps most.
For emergency episodes of diarrhea, one must use enough to do the job.
If there's an active problem with the Trots, one needs to use far more--sometimes 2 capsules several times a day to get diarrhea under control, then drop the amount to maybe 2 capsules daily for maintenance.

===FIBER is needed for probiotics to grow on--both soluble and insoluble, to grow on, to help provide bulk to keep the colon healthy--FIBER helps motility issues, both fast and slow kinds.
---PECTIN is a canning product, it's cheap, comes as a liquid or a powder, most grocery stores that have canning supplies carry it, it tastes a bit fruity, because it comes from fruit.
---CHIA SEEDS provide both types of fiber, along with protein and other nutrients. It comes as dried seeds, which you can blenderize to powder it, and either mix it into foods that need thickened, or mix it into juices, or bake it into a goodie someone likes to eat. We simply put the whole seeds--about a tablespoon, into a glass of juice, or into a smoothie, and let them "develop" their gel-coats as they soak up fluid. Mom used to put them into liquid jello.
---CAROB POWDER: has helped regulate and keep the bowels healthy and operational, for thousands of years. It is both food source, and herbal health aid.
Biblically known as "St. John's Bread".
IF an adult has flagrant diarrhea that happens several times a day, 4 Tablespoons a few times a day should bring it under control.
A small child with diarrhea episodes several times a day, might only need one Tablespoon once or twice a day.
ALSO, Carob helps regulate constipation, since it is a fiber.
Carob comes raw [tastes sweet], or toasted [tastes nutty], and is usually found at health food stores, CoOp Grocery stores, or online.
I usually buy a pound or two of the powder [we like raw carob powder], and keep it in the freezer for long-term storage.
It has a great, long shelf life, even on a kitchen shelf.
When my daughter was very little and had diarrhea, I bought the original Tiger's Milk Bar for her; she thought she was getting a real treat...and it got rid of the diarrhea immediately---those things had a chocolate-like coating on them made of carob, as well as the centers had peanut butter in them [though these days, peanuts are more of a hazard than a help, since those crops have been GMO'd, so can be far more irritant for many more people].

IF there is an infective agent causing diarrhea, and you have no way of knowing,
GSE might be the trick: could try using a 20 drop serving of Grapefruit Seed Extract [GSE], in water or juice, daily for a day or few.
GSE is a broad-spectrum germicidal, safe internally and externally, and can be used in solution to kill germs on surfaces.
It is non-toxic.
It usually stops all forms of food poisoning with one serving, or at most, a few servings.
It has a VERY long shelf life--I had occasion to use some stored for over 12 years at a remote cabin, and it worked very well--it only turns a darker amber color.
It tastes extremely bitter though: usually best camouflaged using citrus juice, or a packet of EmergenC tangerine flavor, in the water...
I usually use about 1/2 cup water to put the GSE and a packet of EmergenC into.
One alternative medicine office I worked in, recommend all our patients who traveled, take along a little bottle of this stuff, to prevent traveler's diarrhea--NONE of them ever caught Montezuma's Revenge; they simply used a daily serving of about 3 to 8 drops in their morning juice.
NOTE: If someone is taking meds that conflict with grapefruit, USUALLY it is still OK to use this to get rid of bad diarrhea, as it is only being used once, or at most, a few times, to stop the diarrhea. Then return to avoiding grapefruit, once the person is OK.

Usually, only ONE of the above methods is needed [not counting removing irritating foods].
There has only been one event in over 60 years, when I had to resort to using ALL of these methods, to control diarrhea [Carob, GSE and Probiotics], as well as removing dairy, sugars, grains totally from diet.

There are so many decent alternatives to dairy products, these days!
Various brands taste different and have various consistencies--it's kind of a matter of taste preference.
Many elders no longer have good taste buds, so getting them to try one might sneak right under their radar fine, as long as they do not know they are getting it...once they seem to like it fine, it becomes regular.
Soy milk, nut milks, rice milks, hemp milks, etc., could all supply a reasonable replacement for dairy. Soy milk has most protein.

OR...it might be, as so many are and just ignore it, there is intolerance to certain types of cow milk products.
Commercial dairies use the kind of cows that produce a type 1 protein, that humans were not evolved to digest. It is irritant, forms larger curds, and has more allergenic elements. UNfortunately, those cows are the largest producers, so they are profitable for huge dairy operations.
Older types of cows [heirloom herds], produce milk with a type 2 protein, which ARE what humans evolved to tolerate....but those are small producers, not found at most stores.
Goat milk is also that same type 2 protein, which humans can easily digest.
NOTE: Anyone who hates goat milk because what they tasted , tasted like a nasty billy goat, got the bad stuff...Meyenberg brand, for instance, is a collective of small producers; not all of them separate their male goats from the milking does...which causes the milk to take on that nasty flavor and smell...
REAL, fresh, PROPERLY produced goat milk, is indistinguishable from flavor of cow milk, and digests so much easier!

Modern pediatricians could give advice to those caring for elders, too...
For kids with diarrhea, Docs recommend the BRAT diet: bananas, rice, apple sauce and toast. You can look that up online:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BRAT_diet

Hope this helps!

This item appeared in today's Dr. Roach medical question column in our paper. I thought the discussion was pertinent, timely to this topic, and might be helpful ideas to those dealing with the problem.

June 25, 2013 at 1:00 am
To Your Health
C. diff infection can be difficult, expensive to treat

Dear Dr. Roach: I was hospitalized this year with ulcerative colitis. While there, I was tested three times for C. diff, and all tests were negative. About a week or so later, my doctor suggested that I be tested again and the result was positive. I have been treated twice with Flagyl.

To my dismay, I tested positive again last week, and was prescribed 500 mg vancomycin every six hours. This medication is very expensive, and my copay was $1,400 for the course of pills.

I am 62 and on a fixed income. Do you think this will kick the C. diff out of my system? It is thought that it was contracted during my hospital stay. Please give me some insight on C. diff and what can be done to get rid of it.

D.M.K.

Dear D.M.K.: Clostridium difficile (“C. diff”) infection is caused when normal colonic bacteria is overtaken by this abnormal one, whose name underscores how difficult it is to get rid of.

It is most common after a hospital stay or after a course of antibiotics. Having inflammatory bowel disease such as ulcerative colitis is particularly bad, since the infection can exacerbate the disease.

The first step in treatment is stopping the antibiotic causing it, if there is one. Flagyl (metronidazole) is considered first-line treatment, largely because of the high cost of oral vancomycin.

About half of people will get a recurrence, but if the symptoms are mild, then it may not be necessary to give further antibiotics. If there are no symptoms after treatment, it isn’t necessary to do another test. However, if the symptoms are more than mild, another trial of metronidazole is appropriate.

Unfortunately, if it recurs, oral vancomycin is the right treatment, despite its expense. A medical system where a person has to pay for an infection acquired in the hospital seems ridiculous to me.

There are two other options worth discussing. Adding in more healthy bacteria, such as lactobacillus, has shown some promise. And as yucky as it sounds, fecal transplant has been an effective treatment for some people with recurrent or resistant infection, and it may be particularly helpful in someone with an inflammatory bowel disease such as ulcerative colitis.

From The Detroit News

Many doctors recommend an over-the-counter product, Imodium, a green liquid or tablet, for relief of temporary diarrhea.

I do probiotics like culturelle and a teaspoon of miralaX daily with 4 oz of prune juice nightly and twice a day her prune pudding I make with her pills in it. Diarrhea is ok, constipation is not. I learned fast when I had to take mom to the ER years ago to be unimpacted! Never again will she be constipated. I started out with two tablespoons of miralaX and worked down to about 1 to 1.5 teaspoons each morning. I would ask the doctor because there is a vassal(?) nerve near the anus that's is dangerous to be pushing on so I heard. ohngood luck I knows it's lousy.

Might also try several smaller meals a day with starchy or yogurt snacks, this may regulate the system more. Also agree with many posts to limit fatty, greasy and dairy foods as much as you can. See if that helps. You might also consult with a nutritionist at the local hospital or senior center for suggestions.

Whatever you do, be sure to give her 30 days or so to get used to the diet before making a judgement on the success.

Good luck, and kudos to eyerlass for her preparative thinking for outings. Consider a plastic drop cloth or shower curtain to keep handy and an extra pair of sweatpants.

That was supposed to be nowfoods. I don't know what happened to the rest of it.
Haroldine, I also understand your issue. It took me several years to get Judy's diet balanced before the C-Diff. I just hope I am smart enough now to figure it out quicker than that.

Ridingthewaves -- Here is the web address I get stevia from. nowfoods. I have also gotten the non processed stevia at the store. It works but everything looks gross with it.
When I took Judy off soy, it took over a month before she started gaining weight again even after I increased her calories.

are you sure we don't have the same mother?!? :) oh, I could write a book on this topic but who would want to read it. I do give my mom the protiotics now also. think it helps somewhat. there is fine line between diarrhea and constipation. almost like it's one week "on" and one week "off". also, I think their intestinal issues seems to be all they think about sometimes (at least in my mom's case) in my case, if I try discussing with home healthcare or her doctor, they are really not concerned by it. my impression is this is very typical of the elderly. Good luck.

My dad is the same way,Riding The Wave! He will have the diarrhea for days and taking Immodium . Then he's complaining of being constipated and wanting Supppositories . However last week was the worst . It was around 8:00 PM a week ago Fri. and he comes out of the bathroom and wants a to know if I have any sanitary pads!!! What the hell for????? He informs my husband & I that he's constiapted and had to dig the (shit) out and now his hemmoroids are bleeding. Than about a half an hour later he asked if we could go get him diapers because he's bleeding.Since than he has gone through diarrhea and now is back to constipation, and wanting suppositories and wearing diapers all the time, which I think is his choice because he doesn't want to have to get and go to the bathroom . Help!!!!!!!!! I'd also like to know if any else has a shit digger???

Metformin can cause diarrhea. Consult your pharmacist, also ask him about use in the elderly. There are some cautions with age and kidney function (not related to diarrhea). She might be better off on insulin only.

You didn't mention what type of neuropathy she has, I'll assume neuropathy in her feet as it is the most common type diagnosed. Diabetes can also damage nerves in the gastrointestinal tract resulting in diarrhea or alternating diarrhea and constipation. Google Diabetic gastroparesis.

Sounds like lactose intolerence which means any milk products, and usually high fructose syrup goes with lactose intolerence. Read labels carefully, no milk, whey, etc, its in most breads and things you cannot imagine. Withhold those all for a week and see what happens, this happened to 2 of my children who are adults now and it stopped. They still will have it with any milk products, muffins, breads, chocolate, etc. Also get the probiotic pills which are like a million times better than yogurts for her, even though yogurts are great also. Good luck

Ferris, mother is 89. She's diabetic, Type II, has neuropathy and some other ailment from diabetes that I can't recall (because doc never mentioned it). Takes Lantus at night, Novalin in daytime, and Metformin twice daily. She has pulmonary fibrosis, pulmonary hypertension, and chronic pulmonary failure, only requires oxygen at night, Symbicort am/pm, Preventil prn, nebulizer prn. She has a past history of diverticulosis and diverticulitis, but since I've been caring for her, it doesn't seem that this has been an issue, at least her doc hasn't thought so, and her BM's don't appear as they did, when she had difficulty with those things, years ago. She came out of her accident with Lance Adams Syndrome, so she had to take medications to help ease the tremors which effect her speech (though little), posture, ability to walk, and control of her hand movements. Her particular strain of that is myoclonus, or intentional tremors. She takes klonopon, keppra, and gabapentin for her tremors. We've tried taking away and adding to, and the dosages she's now on are at a level that best control her symptoms, without adversely effecting her mental capacity. She's actively still persuing additional help with her tremors, through a movement disorder center, that her neurologist referred her to, but we had to take a break, as the first med caused confusion (jibberish speak) and we had to have her checked for UTI, which she did have, and which contributed to her confusion. Soon to restart with them again. She also takes various supplements.

Thanks for the info on the electrolytes, I'll check that one out. I sometimes give her Emergen-C which has electrolytes, but I am not sure if it is sufficient during bouts of diarrhea.

I have thought, before, about having her tested, and I think it's time I set her up for that. Thanks for mentioning that.

We got rid of sorbitol and zylitol products, and I even changed her thickener so that there'd be no forms of sugar, like maltodextrose (think that is the name of it). I have to say, I think I may have stumbled on one of the culprits, and that's her Truvia. I've tried different sorts of Stevia, and settled on this one, due to the other having either sugar or artificial forms of sugar, which I knew could cause diarrhea... but I didn't know what erythritol was, which is in it... and I just read that it can cause rumbling stomach, which she's had more recently, and diarrhea. May just have to take her back to regular old sugar, and adjust her insulin, just to keep her digestive from being out of sorts.

Thanks for all the suggestions!

cdeh61, you are right, it's in soy milk products. I've been trying to tell everyone about it, but nobody seems interested. I have a niece who has lupus and the irritable bowel syndrome that goes along with it, and even she didn't seem to think much of it. They do include it in products that are deemed organic, even though it is altered ridiculously, and is nothing like the seaweed it started out to be. Don't even get me started on GMO products :0

mpatricia - b4 l posted about celiac and gluten sensitivity later down the thread, l searched the prev pages for "wheat", couldnt find it, then erroneously concluded that no one else talked about it. I should have searched for gluten and I would have found your post. We are on the same page regarding gluten. Yay!

Bob, in reading about the medication you give her for gout, sounds like you have to be on the alert for side effects which could be detrimental, such as kidney stones and lowered blood cell counts, that help fight infection. It's such a juggling act. We do use stevia, I've tried different types, right now it's Truvia, as the others had either sugar or other types or artificial sweetener. Turns out, Truvia does, as well... in fact, it may be the culprit, as it says side effects of erythritol, is "rumbling" stomach, and diarrhea. She requires to much of it to get her to drink her fluids, that I guess it's backfiring on her. Well, ONE of the culprits.

I totally agree with Kathryn. Your mother needs some probiotics to restore the healthy flora in her intestines. Antibiotics not only kill off the bad bacteria in your body, but also the good bacteria in your intestine that it needs to function properly. Immodium is only treating the symptoms, but not the cause. A good quality probiotic will restore the balance in her digestive system and will not cause constipation like the Immodium. I would recommend Jarro-Dophilus EPS made by Jarrow Formulas, which has 8 strains of bacteria essential to healthy gut flora and 5 billion organisms per capsule. It is enteric coated which protects the bacteria against your stomach acid until it gets to the intestine where it is needed. It is also gluten free and vegetarian, if those are concerns for you. I take it every day and it helps my acid reflux. I gave it to my elderly father recently when he took antibiotics and had terrible diarrhea and it stopped it. You can find it at a good health food store. Hope this helps.

Riding the Wave - check out Dr. Andrew Weil's website and do a search there on carrareegan. He has suggested for many years that it causes bowel inflammation and is a potential carcinogenic. He is pretty mainstream and not as off the wall as some of the interent "doctors". It is often found in Soymilk and I had to search to find one without it!

Riding the wave -- You should be able to give substitute stevia for sugar. I get stevia balance for a sweetener and use it in recipes, etc and for making jellies. If you put it on fruit, they will juice like regular sugar was put on it.
I gave Judy her regular supper last night then gave her an allopurinal with breakfast this am for her gout. She had such a good day yesterday I thought I could take a chance. She slept most of the morning after breakfast and is sleeping again after lunch. I am guessing it was the allopurinal. Could be I just was giving her too much fiber also.

58yearoldchild... this made me want to cry, his mother making him eat poop! But it does seem like the elderly can be obsessed with bowel movements. My mother has always been this way, and I really do NOT think enemas are her best choice, so I stall... many times there just nothing there, so it's a bit tricky getting her over that hump, and just waiting for mother nature. What a messed up system your dad had going, so glad it's worked out now!

Denise, good idea about the calendar. I did annotate, in a notebook, at least one day, the number of times she peed and pooped... I need to get back to that... and keep account of what she ate... I try to do that with her blood sugar as well.

Helenk, when she had that bout of diarrhea, from the wrong antibiotic, I had to figure out something, so I made my own electrolyte drink from a recipe I found online. Only thing is, she's diabetic, so the sugar was a no go! I am not sure if sugar is needed, as part of the electrolyte, or if it's just for flavor... does anyone know? Someone brought me some Pedialyte, but it was very sugary, as well. I tried to figure out how much insulin she might need by converting the sugar grams to carbs or vice versa and best I could figure is that it would be some inhuman amount of insulin to counter the sugar in the drink! Of course I did not administer that much, I really need to take a class in how to do those conversions. Thanks for the info.

Ashlynn, I haven't been through that with mother, the C-diff, but looking it up, I am so sorry that your loved one has this issue. When she was still recovering, in various facilities, she did have lotsa UTI's as well as lung infections, and infections in her blood. I forget the names of them, but the blood infection, as I recall, was something which is common in community settings, such as nursing homes. It seems, sometimes, that our elderly just don't stand a chance, when it comes to fighting off infection. So much care has to be taken, and antibiotics are like a double edged sword, in many circumstances. We always felt that infection was one of the reasons that one facility passed her onto another, against our wishes. We did all that we could to keep them from moving her, because she still had a trache and we knew the other facility did not offer 24/7 monitoring. It was a rehab facility and we knew that she was not ready. We wanted her off the trache, they were only concerned with getting her off the vent. Their excuse was that Medicare would not cover her to stay there any longer, but we knew what her plan covered and did not, and had even spoken to Medicare, on the phone, to confirm that they would continue to cover her. It was impossible to get a conference call, however. And we constantly had to be on our toes, and making sure proper paper work was sent and received between facilities. Bottom line, they didn't care if Medicare would cover it, they wanted her out. It is my understanding, from what I've been told, by those more in the know, than myself, that if she has an infection, of any sort, that they are responsible, if it was contracted in their facility... and when she left, she did have one that was contracted there... so, they would want to boot her out as soon as possible. It's a sad state of affairs, the way our health care system is run. And guess what? She coded in that other facility, because her trache occluded and the nurse did not get to her in time, but delayed in responding. It was this incident that would change my mother's life for all time. The auto accident she was in had broken and fractured various breakables, but nothing that would not mend. She was not rendered unconscious at the time of the accident, instead had been awake and alert, and was able to give someone my name and phone number, to call. Anyway, I'd better cut this off here, because I can really get worked up thinking about it, and I'm going way off course... but all this to say, I'm sorry for what you're going through with your loved one, and wish you peace and comfort during this time.

I was just reading in Health magazine GNC has a new probiotic with 25 million cultures complex with enzymes and no refrigeration required. And then there is Electrolytenment by Nestle which is spring water + electrolytes + 50% recycled plastic. Try them and see if they work.

Yogurt. When my son was a baby his Dr. suggested this and it worked. So now I have a new baby (this ones a 74 y.o. toddler) and it still works. I have also found that the BRAT diet can be cleverly disguised as breakfast;)

My father had become completely dependent on laxatives for a number of years, he is 85. He drank excessive amounts of prune juice, took laxatives, Metamucil and ate a weird concoction of bran, prune juice and applesauce he said he found in the newspaper. He thinks a normal bowel movement IS diarrhea. Consequently, his clothing, the bathroom, everywhere, was a disaster. Last year, he was hospitalized for a major case of cellulitis, almost lost his leg to it. The hospital and the rehab put him on 2 senna tablets and one dose of Miralax every evening. This really pissed him off, but I can see the benefit of this regimen and a healthy diet (he was eating fast food twice a day for over two years,) in the year he has been in my home. Riding, my dad also thinks it has to happen at a certain time and will force himself to go and then want an enema went he can't. My mornings revolve around his bathroom issues. He also will not use a public restroom. Sadly, he told me out of the blue that his mother made him eat his own feces as a child because he was having trouble with school work!!! So, I believe this trauma has led to this problem. Only God knows what else she did, but she would be in jail these days for child abuse, I have heard other stories from my uncle. I think probiotics are are a great idea. A reputable health food store can help you with products, also talk to your doctor. Mention mom's expectations of a bowel movement, wanting enemas, etc. Believe me, I know this is a tough issue on top of all the rest of what you/we go through. I thought it was just us. . .

My mother has had this problem for MANY years and I think we finally found a solution. She would alternate between embarrassing accidents and constipation. She would use enemas and suppositories any time she didn't think things were just right.
I took her to a gastroenterologist and he said she had eosophil colitis.
She drinks lactose free milk and if she wants ice cream, etc takes a pill called lactaid, I think, before she eats the ice cream, etc..
She is now taking a prescription called Entocort every other day and a senna every evening with dinner. She also takes probiotics every day.
It took a long time to come up with the right dosages. We experimented with an Entocort every day, then every third day and after many many months this seems to work for her.
I also put a calendar up on the wall and a pen attached to a string in the bathroom right next to the toilet so that she could keep track what she did because she would sometimes forget:. ie: small loose, medium hard ...you get the picture. I hope this help you.

RidingTheWave- I am interested in how old your mother is and does she have dementia? It is really hard to diagnose a problem without a full medical history, and I do not want to be accused of practicing medicine without a license. That said, I can only give you some suggestions that I have found for me, particular to me and only me. As a nurse I have seen what medications can do and usually they are constipating. I would recommend an allergy test first. There is something (or many things) she is eating upsetting her natural flora. Probiotics are a bandaid if you keep eating the things in which you are allergic. Until I was tested, I was eating eggs (almost every day), corn, yeast, oats, and soy. No wonder I would get headaches and diarrhea! I am allergic to all of these foods and now it takes forever to find something without these ingredients. Even though the advice normally is to eat your fruits and vegetables, most of them can cause diarrhea. Blueberries cause my diarrhea. Being a detective and trying different foods without allergy testing is exhausting. If she is on Medicare, they will pay 80% to get tested I believe once a year or two (check on that). I had a blood test by York Laboratories which was very thorough for foods, plus skin (slight) pricks (cats, dogs, grasses, hayfever). I usually go the health food store route when I need something, and I bought charcoal to aid with diarrhea. Any of the commercial psylliums, yogurts with sugars (I get Stonyfield), and do not forget anything with Zylitol or Sorbitol can cause diarrhea (those are sweeteners). Adding fat to her diet could help too as the brain needs fat to function and it will slow down digestion. Yes, I know those of you who are offended by that word, but I eat fat all the time and am 115 lbs. Also, remember when your mother has diarrhea to replace the fluids lost with a good electrolyte drink (I buy Body Armor or Pedialyte). Best wishes!

What great help and responses from everyone! You guys made me realize that just as I felt that I was at the end of my rope, I realized some of us have some really harsh and raw challenges to overcome, worse than mine at this time. I thought I had it bad, well it isn't good, but I think this would push me over the proverbial edge, my hat is off to you too Bob, what an example of for better or worse.