Why is it so hard for some to set and maintain boundaries?

Narcissists train their children not to have boundries. To be doormats. They aren't separate people, but extensions of the narcissist. They can control them for life like puppets.
My husb is afraid of his mom. She verbally attacks the other wives. I havent seen it, but saw how they act around her. Not one son would stand up to her. One wife keeps her head down and says nothing at family visits and meals. The whole 4hr visit. I refuse to do that. I havent seen her in years or go to family functions. Im not doing it. She insulted me once in front of the other wives and grandkids. It was just my turn. She made sure her husb and sons were out of the room and couldn't hear. All 3 sons told me get over it. That i have to endure it. She's like that. I said no.

Husb was supposed to go to lunch with his mom, and then do something for me in the afternoon I needed help taking it down. He knew about it days before the lunch. It needed to be done that day. I had to drop it off at a persons house to be fixed. I thought he's gonna tell his mom in passing, and she will make sure he doesnt come home. Sure enough she planned his whole day. Driving her all over. It was to late to do it when he got home. And I had to apologize to the person I couldnt make it. It was an appt. He tried to start a fight over it, and I said nothing. I didnt want a fight for a week. So I decided side step all of it. His mom would have loved knowing she caused a big fight. I'm afraid since he's retired, she's going to start making him her servant. She is that type.

It's also weird when he talks to her, he has to go in another room or outside. I never did that when talking to my parents. I had nothing to hide. Sometimes after being with her, he'd start a fight. I think she picks his brain and sees where she can poke. Her sons cannot stand up to her. Not 1. Even the grandkids ignore her at family get together. They disappear like we are not there. They scarf dinner in 2 minutes, get up and leave the table in the middle of the meal and hide in their rooms. I've never seen anything like it. This happened every Thanksgiving/Christmas.

She flipped out one year that her 6 yr old granddaughter played with a toy my husb bought her for Christmas. She demanded the child stop playing with it, put it away, and play with the sewing machine she bought her. The child wasn't interested. Not one of her sons said let her play. It's Christmas. She made a huge stink over it. Was screaming and carrying on for 5 minutes over it. I thought Christmas toys were to play with? She was that jealous the child chose my husb toy over hers. She made a big production of showing her granddaughter sewing some fabric. The kid wasn't interested in sewing. Not at that moment. They all walk on eggshells for her.
It will never change. So you can't win that battle. I tried. It's not worth it. You have to side step the arguments because she wins then.

I suggest watching crappy childhood fairy on youtube. And how to spot a narcissist and how to deal with a narcissist. And how not be be narcissistic supply on youtube.

I say, we are all different in the caregiver role. I based all my decisions on 'what decision can I (my heart) live with'. I used the same decision making for all of my immediate family. I'm pretty much bound by helping my family first and foremost. I don't really set any boundaries, per se. I do what I can when I can and try to cover what I can't do with other means.

'... a lifetime of conditioning by her that she was always to be kept happy or there would be heck to pay.' You have said it yourself. It is incredibly hard to get away from that ingrained mindset, brainwashing, whatever you call it. It has taken me months of counselling to accept that I am not responsible for my - unpleasable - mother's character defects and life choices, but I still feel pangs of guilt that I'm not doing enough for her.

I think it depends on how much you feel you have to lose in any particular relationship. With my mom I guess some people might say we were enmeshed. I personally can't stand these psycho babble catch phrases. Truthfully after losing my dad to cancer at a young age I clung to my mom, afraid of losing her too. That relationship established itself at a young age for me and lasted all through my adult life. To change it would have been traumatic for me even though it probably would have been good for me to do so. So no boundaries there. I felt I had too much to lose.

But I have some really selfish, mean, narcissistic siblings who proved themselves to not be worthy of my time or effort when my mom got old and sick and they were nowhere to be found. After my mom's death I put up solid boundaries with them cause I feel I have nothing to be gained by letting them into my life and a whole lot of possible hurt if I did.

So, as I said in the beginning of my post. Boundaries are dependent on each individual relationship and what you stand to gain or lose by having them or not having them.

Because they were never taught to do so. Coming from a family who didn’t know how to set them you are somewhat of an enigma. Congrats. But try not to judge others.

Ikdrymom: Perhaps the answer to your question lies in the fact that there has to be at least two persons within the boundary, e.g. the setter and the receiver. I had instructed my mother that it was imperative to let me know when she fell, but oh, no, she did not do that. Also, there was the boundary for her taking her medication, but even that was not followed per se. My mother's 'style' was that she didn't need any help. My response "Not so true, mother. You're blood pressure is SO LOW that you're going to pass out. You must call a friend until I can arrive from out of state with MY AUTO."

It’s also largely time-related. My mother was a strong-minded capable woman who annoyed some people, but her daughters were also allowed to talk back. I turned my life on its head when her cancer came back after 10 years - no boundaries at all. I visited the hospital daily, then moved into her flat with her, full bed care, managed to finish off most work in hand but didn’t tender for more so just about went broke for the next 6 months. Major row with exH, who objected to taking the children for extra time. sleep two hours at a time. Sisters flew in at the end but really didn’t help. Stayed with her as she died, organised the funeral and sorting out all the possessions. Then collapsed.

BUT death came on 27th March, after hospital admission just after Christmas. I simply couldn’t have done it for longer. This is so different from coping around the clock for months and years – for her and for me. She really needed me, she knew it, and she was grateful. Without that, I don’t know how or why people turn themselves into doormats rather than fighting back. I think that negotiating on time-length is probably under-stressed.

Hello, I really applaud you!
I think as adult children we step into new roles and there is no rule book for this.
I feel some can not or do not fill those roles adequately. It may be due to conditioning, quilt, shaming or maybe even brain washing ( smiles). But, when one travels that journey it’s eye opening for sure!

They same way our parents sacrificed, set boundaries, made arrangements for our well being etc… So must we!

With your mindset you may be able to reach out and help those who cant handle the journey and are struggling with ill and unhealthy feelings and so on. It is not healthy to live that way, and when I say healthy, I’m speaking of mental and emotional health!
Best wishes to you 💕

Neither a psychologist nor a psych major, I'm just a senior who also wonders what the heck makes us do what we do. 

Years of observation mixed with my own screwy experiences have brought me to some maybe faulty conclusions, but this is all I’ve got on this subject for now. In a couple of years I may learn to think differently.

Parents are our first encounter with god. We trust, we must trust that this giant is a wise, awesome, benevolent, loving thing and it exists to dedicate itself as the absolute source of all our personal good and welfare. And it lives because we live. Not the other way around. We are its god too.

We expect from them righteousness in our favor, food, comfort, protection, and the best guidance. After all, aren’t we who they live for? We are born selfish creatures, naturally, to survive. It’s normal.

It is a train wreck to our emotions and minds when the parents are themselves damaged. 

Beside imprinting on these beings, (parents), our attachment is compounded because we are, on the most part, creatures of habit and the familiar, even if it is not in our best interest.

I knew someone who worked for a car service company that had a contract with the Dept. of Social Services. Social workers were driven to homes to remove neglected and abused children. As a driver he saw malnourished and neglected children fighting and screaming as they were being taken away from their abusers. They were taken away from the familiar.

The hope is that if we grow up in unfortunate unhealthy circumstances we learn to reason for ourselves. We read, observe other families, judge, branch out, stand comfortably tall and strong and not afraid of going it alone and making our own tribe, and oasis' according to the ideals we've come to admire. Hopefully we create a family of solid, responsible and respectable level headed friends in the least to replace the void, but often we take what the heart needs without thinking for lack of good examples. No one taught Boundaries 101.

I’m not sure but emotional health may be the better springboard to mental health rather than the reverse. That may be correct because we are emotional beings first. As babies we haven’t had a chance to collect information to intellectualize our condition. Our boundaries are set, loyalties instilled via that basic of all glues, the familiar.

Habit and brainwashing is a tough thing to break regarding family, politics, religion and many other things that, actually, wouldn't end our lives if we didn't follow in lock step. It’s perplexing.

I clashed with my parents. They were rough in many ways. I heard that I was a hardheaded kid by all accounts including other friends of my parents who found it admirable and funny. I was more rebellious than my European severely damaged also harshly raised parents could manage.

Over the years I became more aware of their wounds. This has nothing to do with love, and so I didn't put in place many boundaries out of pity. And though I solidly knew better a very tiny part of my heart thought that I might see in their end days a soft look, and maybe kindness would beget kindness but reality was my stalwart and I was not disappointed. Too sad for them.

Why is it difficult to set and maintain boundaries. Everyone wants a mommy and daddy. Everyone unconsciously hope that if they keep giving, Mary Poppins and Robert Young may appear.  

Many people need professional counseling regarding this as many rather think wrong of themselves than their parents. 

In the beginning we all live and breath for parental affirmation, love, compliments, praise & appreciation. Some people continue to suffer from never having that hunger satisfied even those who have achieved personal success will perpetuate their own pain. Mourning pain that comes from this awakening, & letting go of the needy child within is far more frightening than maintaining the familiar and so we never grow up, and never, in an adult manner and without malice, set boundaries.

Whomever is in charge sets the boundaries. Kind of like: “When I want your opinion I will give it to you” Let’s get the job done correctly and move on. Save the drama for your mama! Is best to avoid emotional conflicts when it comes to safeguarding a helpless person.

Because we are human.

Know what you mean, it is hard cause parents some of them thinks that nothing is wrong with them and they are going to fight you like a child and wont want to do or listen to you. They going to keep fighting until they get their way with you until you do something drastic to change the situation. My inlaws was that way until we, me and my husband put our foot down and told them no more. They tried to live with their daughter but only lasted one month. They came back home and was so nice for a little while and started again. There is no winning in this situation..lol. The worst is having a nurse sister inlaw who doesnt help or do what she knows to do to make things easy, she just turns things off and dont really care now..

Why are boundaries so hard to establish? Because in social circles, there is not a clear right or wrong answer. If there was a clear right or wrong answer, those boundaries are easier to establish and maintain.

I also think the reason why boundaries are so hard to establish is because it is like learning a difficult lesson. First you have to be aware that a boundary can or should exist or should be taken down. Then after that, you try, observe the consequences, try again, observe more consequences, repeat until satisfied with the consequences.

As life evolves and changes, the great part about forums like these is the fact that we get ideas of how we might be able to change our boundaries, and ways to enforce them or notify others that the boundary has changed.

I am an only child. Few friends were allowed into our house. There was perfect public mother and private critical mother. Her list of boundaries and requirements was lengthy. I was not allowed any. Events were never as *I* remembered them, and I was frequently set up to be wrong and punished. (ex: told the wrong time, punished for being late) I was to attend all her functions while she ignored mine. All my vacation days were to be spent with her, or else.

It was my “normal” from the day I was born. And I learned tremendous survival skills. My husband is constantly astounded at how much I can read from body language, spoken tone and nuance. It was necessary.

I knew I did not like how I was mothered, and decided to parent very differently, which brought on mocking and criticism from my mother. I have discussed some of my mother’s behaviour with my older kids (20ish) to give them context.

But it took me until my 50s to truly understand there was nothing “normal” about my childhood or our relationship.

Dementia poked holes in her few filters and she eventually expressed herself freely to me, in front of others. “Do what I say, or I’ll make your life miserable!”

She’s been in care for a year and I am trying to wrap my head around a lifetime of damage. I cared for her longer than I should have (to keep her safe through the pandemic) and my conscience is clear.

Good for you being able to establish strong boundaries with your parents while still maintaining a relationship. That's not easy to do especially when our loved ones get elderly and needy.
Your grandmother was a bully and at the heart of every bully is a coward. That's why she didn't go after you too hard if you spoke up to her and called her out on her behavior.
It's very sad that your father could not have done the same. It often happens like that when parents are abusive to their children. The children fear the parents when they are kids. Then they grow up and spend their lives tolerating atrocious behavior from them because they are forever trying for that validation, love, and respect they long for but will never get. So they never set any boundries with their abusive parents.
I set serious boundaries with my mother and others very early on.
I grew up in abuse and as a family scapegoat. I was able to throw that off in my adult life though. I do not tolerate abusive behavior from anyone. I don't care what their story is, how old they are, or what their reasoning is.
Your father set a good example for you about setting boundaries and respecting yourself. You grew up watching your grandmother's abuse and your father jumping through hoops to try and make her happy. You learned a valuable lesson.

It sounds like you found a good balance. Some people are more conditioned to be "good children" to their parents, and there are also social and ethnic conventions that put pressure on people to do certain things. For example, Latin American families have expected the younger daughter to care for the parents. I'm not sure if the younger generation still buys into this. Some children are concerned about their inheritance, and don't want conflict with the parents for this reason. I like to think about the singer Billie Holliday's phrase, "Papa may have, Mama may have, but God bless the child who has his (her) own."

There's really two issues with boundaries, one being the boundaries one puts in place and maintains, and the other being the respect that other people show for those boundaries.

Generally, if Peter seems to have very healthy boundaries in relationships, and Paul seems to have serious problems with boundaries in relationships, usually, Peter is better at boundaries than Paul. But not always. In some cases, person Peter may just be very *lucky* to be surrounded by decent people who *respect* boundaries, while Paul is surrounded by impossible people who stomp on them. There are cases where it is entirely by chance.

Because whatever the negative reaction, I am the one that will have to deal with the consequences. Ever hear the expression "walking on eggshells"? My mother has a controlling personality and an anxiety disorder. Reactions to not doing what she thinks is best (and she always knows the best way to do anything), range from an explosion of anger or hurt feelings that last and last. Both also affect her attitude and physical health. When she is emotionally distraught it can lead to depression, panic attacks, and physical problems. And who has to deal with these problems? Yes, me. I try to set boundaries, but sometimes it is easier to give in to deal with the short-term and long-term consequences. She cannot see the problems with how she sees things. I have tried for decades to reason with her, and at 91-years-old, I have very little hope for positive change. She has positive qualities as well, I love her and feel obligated to take care of her. Every person and situation is different. No one can say with certainty that what they have done is necessarily what would work for someone else,

Wait!
I have boundaries!

Just like my temporary garden fence outside, my boundaries are collapsible
and moveable.

People who are trying to cope with narcissists may notice that there is never a question or request coming from them that can be answered with the word "NO".

Boundaries are for you, not the person(s) who keep trying to breach your boundaries. Once established, you need practice and awareness to maintain a boundary.

Boundaries-how much is too much and how much is too little? Can it ever be just right? I struggle with boundaries all the time. I’m in my late 60s and it wasn’t until the 2020 Covid isolation that I found out that I come from two narcissist parents and my sister, the golden child also exhibits these same ME characteristics. My sister has done next to nothing for my aging parents and I have done all I could reasonably do. I refused to sell my home and take care of them, but I have taken on the responsibility for doing for them what the facilities won’t. I would like to be just the daughter rather than the one they call when they “need” something. However, I can’t help but think doesn’t everyone deserve to have someone to care for them when they can no longer care for themselves? Even if your parent is in a facility, with today’s staffing, you have to continually monitor care or it won’t be done! According to my research in narcissism, they don’t recognize this disease within themselves. So basically they have done the best they could. Isn’t caring for another human the very least we can do? Boundaries come into play when you are taken advantage of and in a way, I have set myself up for that, but I don’t want to be like my sister who told my dad “to get over it” when his wife of 66 years died. All my life, my family has belittled and controlled me, but still I don’t think it’s right to abandon them completely when they have no one else. Boundaries are like walking a tight rope. Can you have both-your own life and care for someone else? I’m working on it. Of course, I’m sure it’s different if you come from a “healthy” background where boundaries are learned and respected at a young age and your childhood is loving and your parents never used you for their gain.

The question below this one on my feed reads : my father refuses care from anyone other than his family.
When you start conditioning your kids in childhood it's a hard thing to break.
I moved across the country, however my mother is vengeful and I was worried if I did not acquiesce on certain things she would take it out on my sibling. I still call weekly and when I do go home to visit I have to spend 1/2 my time with them or she'll harass my sister.

I think it’s a combination of temperament and conditioning. One child may habitually knuckle under to a parent while their sibling fights being overwhelmed by the same parent every step of the way. The sex of the parent and child may figure into it as well as how much alike the parent and child are temperamentally. A parental bully might back down when a child with a similar temperament reacts aggressively or double down and punish the child severely, get physical or both. When a parent instills fear by striking, punishing and/or withholding love or basic care, the child either learns to avoid these dynamics or their spirit becomes broken from habitually trying to escape their parent’s control through their own aggression or passive resistance. Inevitably some kids grow up to have personalities that are very similar to the abusing or coercive parent. Others seem scarred in ways that seem inexplicable like your dad.

If your father still fears his mother, think of it as part of his psyche and try to accommodate him when this relationship impacts you. He may have had a really rough childhood he doesn’t want to talk about, But that doesn't mean you have to acquiesce to your grandmother’s tyranny if she is still behaving the same way.

Your father may experience very troubling emotions or finally feel free for the first time when she dies.

Because when you were a newborn they fed, diapered, and hopefully loved you.

It can be conditioning, grooming or even systemic.

My great, great grandpa was a bigamist, fundamentalist Mormon who married sisters. I’m not quite certain what caused his son to marry only one woman. Pretty sure his daughter (my great grandma) was a Baptist.

BUT, the FMormon belief of “keep sweet” and “women are caretakers” has been passed down through the generations, even as society and the world changed.

My parents passed on the belief that I was meant to work/caretake 16-18 hours a day. My brothers had chores, but theirs were “as needed” chores. Mine were daily. My brothers played more sports than I did, so their after school jobs were maybe 8 hours a week total. Meanwhile, I had a paper route and was babysitting every Friday, Saturday and often on a weeknight when I was 11.

Inadvertently, I married (and eventually divorced) a man who had the similar belief. Not exactly the same, but very close.

I was not able to establish boundaries when I turned 18 just because I was legally an adult. My parents were still very controlling - best guess is one of their biggest fears was that I would become pregnant, you know, something that wouldn’t happen to my brothers.

My mother has a spotty memory now. How events played out are now vivid and very detailed…but often wrong. A couple weeks ago she came to visit me with a friend and we had a difference of opinion how I reacted to no longer taking dance lessons at age 14. She said I cried and sobbed, meanwhile I know I was very, very relieved because I was terribly clumsy, unskilled and in a class with 11-12 year olds and felt like a overgrown ape. I made my case, she argued about it and I decided it wasn’t worth the effort. But as I told her friend, “If I don’t concentrate, I will forget I agreed to this rewrite of MY life and there will be a second argument.”

That mentality of just giving in and going along with the gaslighting isn’t good for boundary setting. The dance class story is inconsequential, but it springboards into more serious issues of what I said and agreed to.

As a person who has had no children by choice, I am amazed at what many will put up with. Dad ad Parkinsons's, got very suspicious of everyone, was hard to deal with, etc., and I believed, shorrtened Mother's life in his constant demands and her devotion to his wish to stay at home when he obviously couldn't and shouldn't. I hope I am not a burden to my family and hope to stay in my home and take care of my self, possibly with some outside help if it comes to it. I am ashamed for those abusive parents (those w/o dementia, which cannot be helped), and I will close by saying that way too many people have kids that shouldn't.KBHKBH

I think a child wants a stable environment. If they have a volitile parent, they learn to please & soothe the parent to keep them stable.

A stable parent is reassuring. Is safe. An out of control yelling parent is scary & unpredictable.

Certainly before I started school I knew how to smooth my world somewhat, from distracting a crying baby, or toddler & listening to & soothing a venting yelling Mother.

Conditioning is a big part, and there are so many ways to condition a child. For instance, mom is always right, and if the child knows better and says so, mom says “Don’t contradict me!” and starts hitting the child. Being physically hurt teaches the child that she’d better not differ with mom - ever.

Some children never grow into adulthood when it comes to their parents, they never achieve the status of being their equal. It is always the childish nomenclature of Mommy & Daddy.

Also, religion clouds some children's ability to move on, they have been brainwashed by the churches must do's and interpretation of the written word, they are conditioned to follow the churches lead without questioning anything.

For the reasons you said plus the fact that I have a minor disability

My mom doesn't want me to wear "revealing" dresses or other outfits which I think is stupid so I'm going to the therapist today to learn how to set boundaries