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I'm sorry for the delay, but it's been a busy Thanksgiving with my son and his wife flying in from Washington. We went and got Jeanne on Thursday and she did have a good day with us at her late husband's cousin's house. She wouldn't let us move the dog crate to the garage "yet." She says she has started in the last few days putting the doggie door slider thing (??) back in and that she is trying to get the dog up and out in the morning. None of this sounds like it will last long, though the house surprisingly was a little cleaner than last time. Maybe the cleaning lady did more than usual? She usually just vacuums and uses a Swiffer. Jeanne thinks the lady is great. (I won't say any more.) But I did find where there were rats nesting in the pantry. My husband got her to agree to use a "biological cleaning" company that will spend the day and clean as much as they can clean in one day as they charge by the day. I will tell them to start in the pantry and work out and up. But I fully expect that, too, to be a waste of money if she cannot keep them out, even if the bioclean company can clear out the pantry. But, in her mind, it IS all about the dog. She thinks she cares for her, and at least she is fed. I will respond tomorrow, hopefully to other questions. It's 11:12 p.m. here and my company leaves tomorrow. Thank you for the comments. It's been very affirming to my being totally triggered by the horrifying conditions. It's just that she and my husband, neither one, seems as bothered as I feel they should be!
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You do know that rats would have no hesitation jumping and crawling on her, right? To the point of biting her? I’ve heard horrific stories of this happening to children in filthy conditions. Her living conditions are disgusting, dangerous, and must be dealt with immediately.
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ZippyZee Nov 2022
And if she were to pass in the house they would not hesitate to eat her.
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There are some very strange comments about pets on this site. “Most people should never have animals or children because they are incapable of caring for either”. People usually get pets when they ARE capable, and no-one can predict the future. Otherwise none of us would be permitted to have children or pets, because we might die in an accident and be incapable of caring.

People buy pets when they want them and can care for them. With many dogs and other pets, their life span is more than ten years. So the choices are 1) Never buy a pet because you may not be able to care for it in 10 years’ time; 2) Buy it now and euthanise it when you can no longer cope with it; or 3) Send it to a shelter when you can’t cope with it. However 3) is usually the same as 2), because there are few homes for old animals that are incontinent and also need expensive vet treatment. However nice the shelter people are, reality is that if the money runs out and no-one wants the pet, it will be euthanised.

Unless you want to wipe out pets, it is pointless to insult people who have loved their pet but can no longer manage, and have to say good bye.
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ZippyZee Nov 2022
The issue is when people refuse to do the best thing for the pet when they can no longer care for it, not that they bought it in the first place. The scenario described is no way for an animal to live, it needs to be adopted out or sent to a shelter.
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Sounds like MIL has put this problem in the "too difficult" tray and is ignoring it. But as problems go, it's a biggie. There's a lot more to it than the odd gnawed banana: structural damage, wiring damage, infection control... it does seem already to have got out of hand and it does need dealing with.

How did the exterminator know about the missing dog flap without coming to the house to inspect it? Is that actually what the exterminator said, or has an assumption been made? The thing is, a dog flap that can be opened as required by an elderly dog would certainly allow ingress to a rat, so I'm puzzled by this. It's the exterminator's job to advise as well as to exterminate. Has s/he had an opportunity to spell out the reality direct to MIL?

What sort of area is the house in? - rural, urban, suburban? Are there widespread pest control issues?
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Maryjann Nov 2022
She is in the middle of a surburban area in a moderately well-to-do area of Northern San Diego County. There are rats in the area. My FIL had the exterminator out when he first started seeing rat droppings in his upstairs office (while he could still navigate the stairs). Apparently even then they had an entrance from the roof somehow. The Rat Man said that he could stop that up, and I think he did. But that he could not do any more than that because until the doggie-door was secured, they could not guarantee their work. So that was that. I hadn't thought about the fact that if an old dog can push through a flap, so can rats. MIL has theoretically found the solid piece that slides into the doggie-door frame and is going to put that in at night. But my husband and I are doubtful she will remember to do that regularly. She has got to get out of that house is what we have decided, but we don't know how to get her out. As he went down to pick her up for our family Thanksgiving with her late husband's cousins, he said she was busy burning up a pot on the stove. He considered turning all the gas off to the house, but that would knock out her hot-water heater as well. So that doesn't work. She had a half dozen excuses as to why she had left the pot on and how she would prevent doing so in the future. I could pull my hair out.
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Which is more important – MIL or the dog? It’s an important question. It’s a large dog, on meds, and with bladder control issues. Would MIL be OK living alone without the dog issues (which include the rats)? If the result of APS or the police seeing MIL, is that she goes to SL, AL or NH, she’s unlikely to be able to take this particular dog. If MIL is more important than the dog, consider telling her that the dog has ‘gone missing’ and take it to a shelter. Of course she will be upset, but she is bound to be upset one way or another. ‘Losing’ the dog at least gives her a chance to stay at home. Moving where she lives makes it almost certain that she won't keep the dog anyway.
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sp19690 Nov 2022
Many shelters are full everywhere. What with the current state if the economy. It is tragic what happens to these animals because of "people."

This woman is still going to have problems with filth and everything else with taking the dog out of the equation. Why cant this woman walk her dog properly or pay someone to come and do it? A 70 pound dog needs exercise. Or hire someone to train dog to use doggie door? It can be done if a person isn't a lazy sack of crap.


And yes getting the dog out of that hell hole of an environment is probably better for the dog if you can find a decent home for him. A shelter should be the last resort not a dumping ground when an animal becomes inconvenient.

Most people should never have animals or children because they are incapable of caring for either.

And this is why the elderly should not be given a pet as a panacea to their loneliness. It's not fair to that dog or cat.

MIL needs to be in an assisted living at the bare minimum.
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One question I have for the OP. Do you think someone with memory issues would hold still in a tube for close to an hour? I thought a mini mental test would come first.
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Fawnby Nov 2022
The doctor is the one to make that call. Doctors - at least geriatric ones - are evaluating and diagnosing from the moment they encounter the patient. Or even before, if the informing responsible person has specified concerning issues and behavior.
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Maryjann, the doggie door lets the dog out into the garage, correct? I assume the large garage door itself is closed, so why is there a doggie door going into a closed garage? If the yard is fenced, someone could let the dog out into the yard, watch the dog, then bring the dog back inside. Problem solved after the doggie door is closed off.

If the large garage door is closed, the problem is that rats/mice are coming into the garage from outside the garage. Time for a handyman to check around the garage [inside and out] and seal off the cracks where a mouse can easily slip through. Maybe the rubber flap under the large garage door needs replacing. If rats are coming in, then there must be large openings in that garage as rats tend to be the size of a small squirrel.
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Countrymouse Nov 2022
You would be amazed at what size space a rat can get through. Google it.
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Here's what you do for an instant response:

Call the police on a day when the caregiver isn't there and ask for a welfare check on Mom.

They'll be out there fairly quickly (faster than APS), and if she allows them in the house, they'll see rat droppings, rotting food, and you'll be hearing from them pronto. That's ammunition for you to get a doctor to declare her incompetent. (It's not your fault that she's being stubborn and not controlling the rats -- you live 100 miles away.)

Someone called for a welfare check on my parents who were functioning perfectly well on their own. We still don't know who called, nor why they did, but the police came. They asked if they could come in and look around. Dad willingly let them in, and they talked to each of my parents separately, asked to see the inside of the refrigerator to ensure they had food, and requested contact information for both me and my brother.

It was a mortifying experience for my dad (Mom had dementia and slept through most of it), but I was pleased with how thorough the police were in ensuring they were safe. It also turned out that the police had a program where we could give them a key to keep at the station in case they needed to get in in an emergency. We did give them one, since I lived more than an hour away from my folks.

Call for a welfare check. It can be anonymous, so your Mom won't be told who called, but the police will know via your caller ID.
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We'd report this situation, yes. But there's no blame attached and I really wouldn't worry about it. The problem seems to be that the dog needs letting in and out regularly, yes?
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Maryjann Nov 2022
Yes. The dog needs to be let out in the middle of the night. We are going to try moving her dog crate from the kitchen out to the garage when we are down there this weekend. The doggie-door would then have a piece of board screwed over it. MIL will have to let the dog in and out when she wants to be with her. MIL tends not to move around much during the day, so we're not sure how she will handle it. But I guess things can't get much worse. (The dog had bladder control issues as well. She's on meds that my MIL of course forgets to give her. Not sure how that will affect her being in the house without an open doggie-door.)
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If I was her caregiver, I would have reported her sitauation to APS and the police on day one and not return to her home. I always refused to work in a place that had vermin or roaches or if it was a hoarded mess. Not happening.
Ask the police to go to your MIL's house and do a wellness check. They will do regular wellness checks on her. The cops will have no problem. Sometimes a caregiver will be hesitant to report a client living in a dangerous situation because they are afraid their client will get placed and they will lose paying hours they can't afford to lose. Or the client is nice and easy to do for and those care clients are often few and far between in this line of work.
The cops don't worry about losing their jobs if they report to APS on a dangerous situation involving a vulnerable or elderly person.
So they do it. Please talk to the police.
Your MIL is out of it with dementia. Yes, out of it if she saves and eats spoiled food or fruit that has been chewed on by rodents.
Let me tell you something about leaving out food, cooking utensils, and plates when there are rats and mice. They piss and crap on everything they touch. So that banana MIL cuts the bite marks off of has been pissed and crapped on. The bite marks are the least of her problems because you can get very sick from exposure to vermin and their waste. I know because I was always sick when I was a kid.
Please tell her caregiver that is she uses her pots and pans to cook or serves her on dishes, they have to be washed before they are used. Also where there are rats, there are also mice. The vermin is not just confined to one area of the house. Encourge the caregiver to call APS.
APS will call you and your husband if you are her next of kin. That's okay. You won't get in trouble. Call APS yourself and explain to them plainly what's going on that your MIL needs help and refuses. Also, make sure they know that you and your husband are unable to move her into your house to care for her. MAKE SURE you are most emphatic that she is mot moving to your place because APS will try to get you to take her.
You'll see it will be all right. Either her house has to be professionally cleaned and exterminated then a live-in caregiver moved in who can look after things, or she will have to be facility placed. These are the only two options.
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The caregivers should report to APS.
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BurntCaregiver Nov 2022
The caregivers are legally obligated to report to APS. In my state anyway.
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Good grief! If APS gets called even better. Let them worry about what to do with this subborn elderly person. There are plenty of them like this. They don't want the help. As someone stated, let Medicaid pay for a nursing home.

I've had a stubborn person that hollered and screamed at me constantly. Sure, the brain is broken, but I'm not here to be abused and let you break me in the process of trying to help you. You either want the help or not. You can't force anyone to accept help.
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BurntCaregiver Nov 2022
Amen to that, Scampie. I have never tolerated abuse from any client dementia or not. That's why I was successful in this line of work and able to do it for so long.
With dementia their brain is broken. We all know that. When a client is abusive to the caregiver due to dementia this is when the caregiver has to establish dominance and absolute control of the situation. There have been many times were I had to be somewhat intimidating to a dementia client. Sometimed you do have to force help on them, even when they don't want it. I always say a person recovers a lot faster from a bit of intimidation to get something done then they would from a UTI or incontinence sore because they're left filthy. I have had demented elders flip out and call me every name in the book for throwing away spoiled food, rotting garbage, or collections of soiled Depends and pads that they were planning on reusing. I've had to do the drill sargeant's yell in many a face when things got abusive and it works. I never use obscene language or profanity. I do not make threats either. Stubbornness and abusive behavior will result in them going to a nursing home. I;ve said this many times. It's a fact not a threat. I don't tolerate abuse from anyone though. I don't care how old someone is or what their health conditions are. I get the work done because I won't leave someone filthy or with rotting food.
I've had families at their wit's end in tears because of an abusive elder with dementia. Others who minimized the seriousness of the care situation by half jokingly calling their abusive elder a "handful". There are no "handfuls" with me. I get it done any way I can. I've been on camera many times and always explain to a family up front that there may be times when I have to use intimidating language and tactics with their loved one if they are being stubborn and abusive. When the caregiver is alone on the job they have to have total control of the situation. Many of these demented elders are still mobile and physically strong. So you can never let control get away from you. If you have to out a little fear in their hearts, do it if that's the only way to get the work done. Its for their own health and safety.
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There are some folks you can't help.

As stated above, let the inevitable sad fall/illness happen and make sure the hospital discharge people know that she lives alone, will not cooperate and the vermin in her home.

Do NOT show up at the hospital and do NOT take her into your home.

I know this sounds hard, cruel and cold. I am not an uncaring person. My mom was a cooperative elder; she got good care.

My MIL wouldn't hear of having help and threatened to call the authorities on my husband when he became frustrated with her continued self-neglect, so he walked away. A crisis ensued and she got the care she needed. Not what she wanted, but sometimes it's the only way. Step away.
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ZippyZee is spot on. Let the ship sink, and don’t you go down with it. You said, about this obstreperous, cantankerous old MIL, “she won’t”this, “she won’t “ that…well, fine, then! Let her “she won’t” her batty old self right into whatever nursing home Medicaid will pay for. If you plonk one dime of YOUR funds into her maintenance, well, you are out of your mind. Let APS do what they will. Find a new home for the darn dog, and deal with the rats before you sell her house. Really, what else is there to do?
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Scampie1 Nov 2022
Family get tired and flustered dealing with them.

I had an old guy for four hours. I was a fill in for his regular aide. This guy had a pile of used bandages, and used tissues and such almost to the top of his ceiling. The place smelled. He couldn't open his windows but he did turn on the air conditioner. He was suppose to have a shower and clean clothing, but he dressed himself without washing himself. I only had him for the afternoon, so I just sat and talked with him.
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Probably, they're usually mandatory reporters. You should call APS yourself and have her evaluated. If they refuse to intervene, at least you've done your due deligince. Best just to leave her to the fate she's created for herself in the meantime.
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