Is worsening narcissism really worsening dementia?

Using uncharacteristic swear words is another small sign of dementia. It would be good to have MIL evaluated. Some dementia symptoms can be treated.

But, really, the diagnosis isn't the most important element right now, is it? You need to figure out how to deal with this, and it seems to me you are doing it as well as possible. Hubby did the right thing by leaving. You are doing the right thing by letting everyone else deal with her while you are healing. You need to come first. I can understand the strong temptation to have it out with her, but you know from years of experience that it won't do any good. And it won't do any good whether this is a personality disorder or dementia or both. MIL is not a person who can be reasoned into good behavior.

You guys are doing great.

I am so sorry you are going through this. Knowing that she is sick doesn't make it any easier detach and not take it personal. Changes happen with our parents and we have to adjust emotionally, too. I try not to take things personal from my Mom, but sometimes I am just disgusted. I try not to say anything because it really does not make a difference. Most of the time she is pleasant and talks all about herself. It gets very old, but I don't see her being around a lot longer. I know, this might not help but it is just what is happening with us. I live with her and I get out by going to the store almost every day. I have to get some fresh air. I have to see other people that are pleasant to me. Usually, that is other shoppers or the store clerks. Well, I just wonder who is going to take care of me if I live so long.

Interesting question connecting narcissism with dementia.
I don't have caregiving relationship per se with my sister, but she has always had the narcissist trend. So, I've read a lot of articles on narcissism. It is pandemic in this society.
I was very fortunate not to have a narcissist/dementia phase with my parents. They were truly remarkable patients. But, after they were gone, I did respite sitting for VNA, and found out that other patients were Not so remarkable, that other patients have "sickness talking" -- dwelling on their health problems and taking it out on others. What they really need is hobbies, books to read, productive things to do that takes their mind off their health problems. We're all going that way - we're all going to have aging lesser-"golden years". As Reader's Digest says, "Laughter is the best medicine."
Yeah Patti4Mom -- I often think "I need a Me to take care of Me one day." And, even if I had kids, there's no guarantees that kids will be familial "social security" care. (I say, if family is so disconnected, dysfunctional, uncaring, unloving -- then parents should exhibit Tough Love and kids should Not receive inheritance. Inheritance should be Earned - and caregiving, thru giving-back, is a good way to earn it. Parents do a lot for their kids, and kids shouldn't be so selfish to not give-back while they have the chance. After the parents are gone - and kids haven't given-back, that's when resentments for the rest of the kids' lives set in.)

The age-old dynamic of shut-in parent feeling sorry for themselves, and grown kids out selfishly having fun with their peers rather than with the parent/patient. The dynamic especially made worse by geographically distant family. If family dynamics are so bad for caregiving, the only option is outside caregivers, thru an agency, or independent, whether covered by insurance or not. Of course, then with strangers in the home, watch out for "employee theft". Another source of patient narcissism/dementia, real or imagined thefts.

We didn't have these problems when the average age of death was 65-70. Now that people living longer, and in pathetic health conditions & sub-quality of life, we see so much more of this.

I agree with above two posts as saying something, or standing up for yourself really doesn't matter to people with a narcissistic personality with possibly dementia developing on top of it all. It is a stressful combination to deal with and often the only way to deal with them is to walk away, as your husband did. And you definitely need to recover and not take on any additional stress.

Having her evaluated by a physician would help - through my experiences, it was helpful to talk to the doctor on the phone first before the visit and discuss what is going on. Narcissistic elderly people can behave differently in a doctor's office as this is part of the disorder - and actually fool the doctor with how they can "turn it on and turn it off". And the doctor, unless previously informed, may not realize the extent of the problem. I learned to talk to the doctors ahead of time and it made a tremendous difference.

Hopefully, there will be a treatment for your MIL in the form of medication. This can take time by trial and error until a medication is found that works.

Meanwhile, since she lives across the street and is currently independent, you'll have the opportunity to be proactive as the situation will only get worse. Hugs to you and hope you are feeling better each day.

Thank you for asking this question. My dad has always been a bit of an ass but in the last few years he has become so insanely selfish! It's driving us nuts! At first we thought it was because my mom died so we totally understood. But it has been three and half years and his behavior is so awful we can't use that as an excuse anymore. Is there dementia in her family? My dads mom died with it. Some of his sibling had it toward the end too. Is she forgetting things a lot? Simple things like how to turn on tv or her phone number? She is obviously angered easily - another sign especially with the unusual swearing. Anyway please just do what you are doing and take care of yourself and your family first and foremost. They really do become like children again. When you are well perhaps you and/or your hubby could go to doctor with her. In the mean time try and blow her behavior off. She is not the center of your world as much as she might like to be.

What alarms me in my experiences is how their narcissistic behaviors bring out such a fierce wave of emotions in me. I believe what we have to deal with and focus on is not so much their behavior but our responses. I wish I could be more of a Teflon woman and let it slide right off, but it is difficult- especially in a caregiver's position when I am all ready dealing with guilt, stress, and so forth. Be strong for each other. The emotional distress can be crippling. Peace to you my friend.

My experience with elderly people in general is that their world gets smaller and smaller, and their concerns do as well. The circle closes in, until it's just them. I think of it as them going backwards, getting more and more babyish. There are no babies who aren't self-centered, and there are only rare old people who aren't self-centered as well.

"But now I just want to fight her"....this is something that you must not do.
Ignore her. It may enrage her even further, but my suggestion stands: Ignore her.
My heart goes out to your husband, her son, who seems to bear the brunt of her anger . Thank God she lives across the street and not in your house.
Take care in your post-surgery recovery./ Bless you.

Your MIL may have any of a variety of issues. She may be forgetful and confused (dementia ?) frightened and lonely, (depressed?) A complete checkup would be helpful + some activity planning such as day care, adult ed classes, volunteer work, what ever might interest her and is appropriate for her level of functioning. . When she is angry I suggest you say, "I need to be careful of my own health right now. I do care about you. You seem upset, we'll talk about this when you are calm." and then walk away. Other family members need give her a similar, consistent answer. Being old doesn't necessarily mean being self centered --that theory verges on ageism.

harrah, I agree so much with you. As they age, many people get tunnel vision, both in their driving and in their personal lives. I have seen some think of an injustice, dwell on it and turn it over in their minds until it generates absolute rage. I don't think it takes dementia as much as it does an obsessive way of thinking about things. I have a feeling that the best cure for this behavior is for an older person to stay engaged. However, many choose to sit in the house and look at the walls or out the window, then blame others for the choice. If other people's experience is similar to mine, parents may refuse all invitations to do anything, then get mad because no one takes them anywhere. It's a no win, so it's best to just let it not raise the blood pressure too much.

Thanks to all who answered. I still haven't talked to her yet. I did call her doctor's office and spoke to the MA and let them know about the behaviors that are concerning. I have been to the doctor with her before and I know he does not know. She can turn it off and on. I know she is ok right now because she has been sending me many emails of dogs peeing on pictures of Romney and other related Romney bashing, so I know that she at least has her sense of humor right now (if we were democrats, she would be sending us Obama bashing; this makes me chuckle).

I did go to a website mentioned on another post, I think it was daughters of narcissistic mothers. I read through all of it and printed out the 24 characteristics. She was everything on there to a T except for the physical abuse. It really was an eye opener. I showed it to my husband and he will read it tonight. I think it will help him. Even though it was about daughters, it applies to sons too. I can see some his behaviors and the way he is on some things are definitely a direct result of her mental/verbal abuse. I hadn't put two and two together thinking about how it was when he was little. She has always been this way. I know that does not seem earth shattering, but when you connect dots like that, it is an ah-ha moment. There were things in there that helped me out too; some things I have said or acted like and realize that it is hurtful to my kids. I think everyone is selfish sometimes but if you can recognize and improve, do it; and I will. The best thing about that website that helped was learning the identifying factors and then realizing it really is not you. It is very hard with her to not think you are not a crazy, unreasonable, horrible, uncaring person. Now I know I am not and neither is my husband or my kids.

I hope next time she goes to the doctor that they will do something (I know they can't fix narcissism, but can help with dementia). I remember years ago when she was in convalescence they gave her some antidepressants. It worked very well until she found out what they were and immediately refused to take them because there was no way she was depressed. I believe she definitely is, but she will never admit it. Funny though, she always says everyone else is depressed, but to her that means that they are crazy.

I know we can't change her. I expect the tide will go out again soon and then come crashing back in with her. I will continue to recover this month from my surgery and then I go back to work on October 1 to a new job, in Aging and Disabilities of all things. Reading through and through this website will make me a better case manager. It will help me understand more about family dynamics and issues with elderly care. It will help me with the MIL too. My goal is to get the anger out of me and help my husband get the anger out of him too. She gets us so riled up all the time we are just balls of stress, but it doesn't have to be this way and we will work through it, and it will continue to storm and calm, storm and calm.

Bless all of you and this website. I am so thankful I found it.

From my experience with my 100 yr old mother who has been diagnosed with Borderline Personality Disorder, and is narcissistic, I have to think that your mil has developed some dementia. I can't say that my mother's narcissism has worsened in time, though her paranoia has. She doesn't lose her temper any more often than she did when she was younger. She has never uttered a swear word, and, if she started, I would work to have her assessed for neurological disease.The comments about people getting more self centered, and being more focused on their own small world as they age, certainly ring true. Their, and in my case, as I am 75, my world does become smaller, and it is tempting to focus on the increasing limitations, aggravations, health issues that accompany aging. However, I have seen seniors who maintain an interest in a larger world until they die. An aunt, for example, who lived until she was 97, was up to date on world news, major sports etc, even though her vision was failing and she had other health issues. Her personality did not change. "They" say you die as you live, and I would add, in the absence of neurological disease, you age as you live.
ohjeezleweez - You are protecting yourself, which you need to. I have seen my mother become pretty agitated when the attention was off her and onto someone else, due to illness, holidays or whatever, but not to the point that she would exhibit uncharacteristic behaviours. It would be her normal behaviours somewhat exaggerated. Getting a narcissist evaluated in another thing, as they will resist and think that everyone else has the problem. To me, you all are doing the right things,, but that does not make it easy. Gettng her to an evaluation in the future sounds like a good idea.
(((((((lynmac))))))) I know you have been through a very rough time, and hear what you are saying. Having lived with narcissistic behaviours all my life, I think I have become more of a "Teflon" woman. It has taken many years to get there. The emotional stress certainly can become crippling. It is so important to look after you by drawing boundaries and emotionally detaching and distancing - important but not easy. Detaching, and distancing allows for healing from abusive behaviours, and prevents, or at least, decreases additional hurt. Allow yourself time and space to grieve your losses.
jessie -my mother dwells on events from years back, and works herself into a rage - but then she always has. She will not join into activities her ALF offers, and like yours, then complains that she is alone too much, when there is a wealth of socializing outside her door. I agree, you can't let it bother you too much.
Letting go of guilt when "attacked" by a narcissist is not easy, but very important for maintaining your wellbeing. ((((((((Hugs))))))) to everyone with this problem Joan

ohjeezleweez -just read your recent post and am so glad you found the site "daughtersofnarcissisticmothers". I have found it so helpful, and validating. Yes, you tend to feel that you are crazy, uncaring etc. and yet the feedback you get from people other than your mother is so different. Growing up as a child of a narcissist is very difficult. I am glad you now have some insights into your husband's childhood., and also how to be a better case manager

To prevent new anger- detach and distance. To deal with old anger - deal with the hurts. I found writing them out was helpful. It is important to have your hurts validated, tio accept that the way you were treated was a bad as it felt, and still feels.It is also important to recognize that she is not a "sane" person but a person with a serious mental disease, and one that is not easily treated. I think my mother is depressed too, but she would not take meds for it either. Since antidepressants have helped mil in the past, could the doc give those meds under a different guise? Unfortunately my mother researches every med, and would find out quickly, and refuse them. It will not get easier. I wish you the best and prayers. ((((((hugs)))))) Joan

Ohjeez is the motherdaughter site where you found the list. I would like to have it when I take mom to the doctor next time. I picked her up for lunch today, even though she made it clear she was not hungry and because I am trying to get her to take the depression pill by the "half" since the full pill makes her too sleepy, that she couldnt keep her eyes open. She is giving the same trip, it is useless to take the depression pill because it is not going to make the things go away that she is depressed out. Tried as usual to discuss non important stuff, telling her about girls at work....as soon as I mentioned one girl was still wanting to move out of state where her son and daughter -in-live...she started being sarcastic...maybe they don't want her to move there, maybe they don't want to have anything to do with her like your brother. Then she started the same old "when I die I don't want you telling him ...if he can't come see m alive I don't want him here when I die". I told her this was not how I wanted to spend my lunch....I finally gave up and shut up and didn't say anything else the rest of the time. Yep, feel guilty every time I do something with my family or without her, but when I take her she still is miserable and makes everyone else that way. Back at work and can't concentrate on work......how am I going to keep dealing with this....Cant even talk to my husband anymore because he is so angry at her it just makes it worse.

My mother has narcissistic personality disorder, and dementia, the only difference in her behaviour these days is that the narcissistic traits are on display for everyone to see, because she's lost the ability to hide her contempt for me. This may be what's happening with your MIL
((hugs))

I am continually shocked how the people who do the most for their elderly parents are similarly, the same people that get treated the absolute worst. My mom has always been a narcissist, and manages to dismiss anything that anyone else has to deal with as somehow being less bad than some experience she has had. So in essence, there is never any empathy. You need to recover from your surgery and I applaud you and your husband for not getting "sucked in" to another useless argument with a person who is either too sick, too elderly, or too unable to evaluate any larger situation than their own. Keep disallowing yourselves to get sucked in.

Does anyone know what are the best resources for evaluating your senior parents' mental state and what legal options you might have to get them into a situation-like assisted-living-to prevent them from harming themselves--like not eating or becoming too depressed, etc???

Others are so right in that as people become more & more isolated - they center more & more on themselves. The only elderly I have seen that do not become wrapped up in their own little worlds are those who stay active in providing services for (ie helping) others (especially those who are active prayer warriors in their complexes, neighborhoods, etc). Unfortunately, most TV shows feed the narcissism and that is the only input many of them receive. I'm so encouraged by how thoughtful & concerned so many of you are! Thanks!

It's like trying to argue with a hurricane! You can stand on the beach and shake your fist in defiance and DROWN!

OR --- You can take cover, try and survive the "howling wind(bag)" and clean up the mess afterward.

So well stated, Hank!

I didn't know that there may be a connection between Dementia, Clinical Depression and Narcissism. I have not heard of this.
I'll research this next week. My medical contacts are not as available as they once were.

Can you find it in your heart to refer to her as your MIL instead of the MIL? When our people act out it is only natural to push them away for their bad behaviour - I did - but out of desperation I tried the opposite approach and it has helped me/us. I have made a sincere attempt to be closer, more compassionate and less judgemental, not easy when they are cursing you out, but I kept it up steady and we have turned a corner. Things are better, not saying there won't be more histrionics in the future but we are able to enjoy each other more now. Better for the whole family. Good luck to you, I wish you the best in your efforts to understand this difficult family issue.

You are an unusual person, Grace7.

Hi gbearyg - it really has been a great help to me. The list is under characteristics of narcissistic mothers. Even though she is not my mother, my husband is her only child and we have been married for 18 years, so in my case, a lot of it applies because she has been there nearly all of my adult life. Like I said before, it has also opened a window of insight into my husband as well; why he reacts the way he does, why he has a steel shield, and how he handles relationships with others. It breaks my heart to watch her treat him with such hate and contempt, and now I know it has been his lifetime of mental abuse and rejection.

Grace7 - what an interesting point you brought up. I didn't even realize I was referring to her as "the" MIL. When I talk about her, I say "my" MIL, or use her name. I wonder if this is a subliminal detachment at work here or it simply just flowed from my typing fingers. It is true my heart is hardening. I have tried and tried the compassionate approach, but there are certainly blocks of time where my feelings are cold and I lose any compassion at all. Because of her narcissistic personality, I don't believe she can differentiate between me being compassionate or autonomic, nor do I believe she cares as long as her needs/wants are being met. We are the 'hired for free' help. If we don't do exactly what she wants, we are 'fired' until she needs us again. Chores are nitpicked to the bone "my gardener would have know what to do" - "my housekeeper always does it my way" - "so-and-so will go out of his way to do anything for me." We tell her they are doing exactly what she wants because they are professionals and she is paying them, not because they care. She says we are making her waste her money away because we don't care enough to do it right. It is so hard to work with her because nothing is ever good enough. She will literally stand right over me, inches from me, and nitpick my every move and get me to do it over and over again until it is perfect (things in my eyes that don't matter, for example, a vase on a table must be measured to the center, not just placed in the middle). I suppose this is another personality disorder - OCD?

As long as she is of sound enough mind and has enough money, this will continue. I believe it would be easier if she actually were completely dependent and we had control over her care, but I also know that is a caregiver fantasy. It is so maddening because I do really feel I should be doing all these things for her and taking care of her because she is my husband's mother, and she is old, and we are her only family; because, because, because.

I feel so down today. She is refusing to speak to me or my husband because he walked out on her the other day with the trash incident. She will keep this up until one of us calls her or goes over there to see how she is doing. Then the the guilt trip and the blame will start all over again. I feel like crying today. I feel defeated.

Oh yes I understand this well. My Mother was always self-centered (well we all are to some degree) but she is now completely consumed with herself. I guess you have to be when you age but it is sooo hard to deal with at times. When I was in the hospital it actually made her angry because the focus was not on her for a little while. It would not be so bad if she just had some interests beside herself. The way I handle it is to not take it personally which is really hard. If I was an employee of her - actually I am - just don't get paid -haha, I would let it roll off my back but it is my MOM who knows every little insecurity I have. The dynamic is strange but she really is childlike now. I have to remember that when she says totally off the wall stuff and I start to react like a teenager. She is not who she was anymore - sad but true. Hang in there... enjoy your new job and try and balance out your life. It is still YOUR life. Much sympathy....

emjo - Great info on the Narcissistic Mothers website! (and I'm a guy!) Mom and I have the Henry and Edsel Ford thing going.

(Just Google "Daughters Narcissistic Mothers" and it should come right up)

The author is into "acupressure/tapping" as a treatment. (Reminds me of the guy in Remo Williams... "Lesson 22 - Blessed Silence!" If it were only that easy...)

thx Hank. I know you are a guy, It works for sons too. As I recall there is a family busines in your situation, which complicates things for you. I don't think it is as simple as EFT (tapping tehniques), but they probably don't hurt. I have given up any emotional ties to whatever material inheritance I may or may not receive. There is too much opportunity for manipulation attached to that. It was freeing.

I find I need distance and detachment to heal.

ojeez and grace - with all respect to you, Grace, for what you have achieved, being "nice" does not work with everyone. I have found that drawing boundaries works better for me and mother. The "nicer" I am (and what being "nice" is is up for interpretation, I know), the more mother walks over me. She shows me more respect when I maintain boundaries, and sees caring and compassion as weaknesses, and opportunities to "pounce" and to take advantage..
I find being informed about her condition is very helpful, and also not playing into her "games" or enabling her illness.
ojeez - I know the criticisms of not doing things her way, or dressing the ways she thinks I should etc etc. How do you respond to her? I find that drawing a boundary -for example - if she wants to hire people to do things her way, it is her choice, if she wants to save money and allow you and your husband to help her, you will so the best you can to do it "right", but you don't want to hear criticism of your efforts. Useful feedback is one thing, continual criticism is another, and not acceptable. I have told mother that I do not appreciate her negative comments about my appearance, and she has for the most part, stopped making them. I also told her that I did not want to hear about so-and-so and how they mistreated her any more because I had heard it many times before, and all her negative comments did was spoil the time we had together. It was in the past, nothing could be done about it, and it is over. She has spoken about this person must less. since. By the way, this was a live in nanny who worked very hard to help mother, and look after her, and was met by nothing but criticism and nastiness. She finally quit. Mother referred to her as a sewer rat. I don't want to hear anyone referred to like that from anybody. You are being emotionally abused by your mil's OCD or whatever it is. Please draw some boundaries. I do hear you are feeling guilty and for what? She is a person with sone serious problems. You don't have to go back and take more of this. Please work on detachment. recognising that you are not in a "normal" situation, so the "normal" epectations don't apply. jeannegibbs has quoted from a book by a psychologist who believes that children of abusive parents (and that includes emotional abuse) should not be caregivers directly, but only oversee the caregiving. So please accept that your mil is not mentally healthy, and that skews your situation considerably. You are not a failure as a caregiver. Please take the steps you need to, to feel better about yourself. A few session of counselling for you and your husband may help you to see what you are dealing with, and give you some ideas how to better manage it. People with these problems set you up in a lose lose pattern, and you do feel defeated continually, until you start to set your own guidelines/limits Good luck

hadenough -yes it is your life and you (we all) need to take your (our) life back from people who try to turn it into a downer. Your mother sounds narcissistic, if she got upset when you were in hospital because the attention was not on her. Mine is the same. Emotional distancing is protective.
(((((((hugs))))))) to all - it isn't easy.

I feel horrible and I am pretty sure it is my blood pressure up....such a stressful weekend...I'm going to have a stroke and my mom is going is really going to be up a crick...ug....She sat with her head on her chest and her arms crossed and pouted all weekend yet again..took her for a golf cart ride and she she starts ragging that if she owned this campground kids wouldn't be allowed to drive them, she complains non stop and is always screaming at my dog because she hates dogs. She doesn't like it because I walk Cosmo with my girlfriend so we do not eat breakfast until about 9:30 at the camper...she wants to eat when she gets up at 5 in the morning..I have to do that every work day so my weekend should be my weekend ..We used to stay Sun night but don't anymore...its miserable enough getting thru Sunday day....My husband says she would like nothing more than for us to get a divorce so she can have him out of the picture and me at her beck and call. When I dropped her off she childishly informed me she had moved her thermostat down to 60 because she was tired or my husband complaining how hot it is in her apt....he always teases because she has it so hot in there and I am the opposite and keep our house so cold....she also told her friend she wasn't going to have anything else to do with her because Mike doesn't like her. Mike feels like she uses my mom because my mom has worked for her at the last 2 jobs she has had and doesn't pay my mom. She does get my mom out of the house though so I tell him to keep his mouth shut (which doesn't work). But he is right, it doesn't matter what he says, or I say, she finds a way to bring something negative out of it. But the same conversation she ripped me again about how she was going with them on vacation in 2 wks because she hasn't had a vacation in years (because we don't take her with us on ours - but we found her a camper next to ours so she could go every weekend - of course that doesn't county - never ever enough)....I read what everyone else says and I don't know how you are all keeping your sanity....I feel like I am going to lose it soon....

Ohjeeze, you all have ur hands full! Thinking of u n sorry to hear about surgery. Glad u r staying focused on ur recovery, rather than MIL's constant issues. I'd let mr nosey neighbor know that in spite of how things might appear, u all do LOTS for MIL, rather than justify other obligations? Maybe he'd like to help w those compression stockings, hahaha!! Congrats on the new position. Keep up the good effort protecting ur immediate family!! Kimbee

qbearyq - please look after you. and let your mom know that the negative comments are not acceptable to you. You need to draw some boundaries with her. Have you looked at the "daughtersofnarcissisticmothers" web site? Google that phrase and learn about yourself and your mum. She will drag you down and only you can put a stop to that. You and Mike need some relaxing time away from her. No matter what you do it will never be good enough, and she will always compare you negatively with others -her problem and don't let it be yours. So take charge of your life, do what is reasonable for your mum, but also do what is reasonable for you and Mike. If taking her with you camping every weekend is a downer, don't take her every weekend. You don't have to. Cut yourself some slack, and take some time for you. She will complain whatever you do - you know that. You can't make her happy. Work on making yourself happy, and keeping your own sanity. Counselling helps too. I go when I need to. Being brought up by a mother like yours, and mine, makes life much harder, and we need all the help we can get. ((((((((((((((hugs)))))))))))))))

Thanks Emjoy.....Most of my moms downgrading is about everyone else but she does jab me in other ways. . . she downs everyone who is not working every minute. I always hear, you need to do this, you need to do that, why haven't you separated your lillies, you need to paint this, you need to clean out your garage, why is Mike sleeping until 9 on Sat morning he gets too much sleep. She thinks you are supposed to work non stop. I try to explain to her there is not enough hours in the day for me to get this stuff done. Easy for her to say because she has not held a regular job for 50 years...she worked for a short time in a factory. Rest of her life my dad and her were self employed and she would ride with him as he worked on vending machines, did the books and counted the change. We bought the camper because I wanted somewhere I could go and get away from the work - out of site out of mind.....but I can't relax because I have to be entertaining her nonstop or listening to her complain about how she wants to die. I felt lousy yesterday and I know it was because my blood pressure was up. I'm probably going to have a stroke before she does.