Is worsening narcissism really worsening dementia?

qbearyq, why on earth are you taking this negative, ungrateful person camping with you?

My dad died about 8 years ago and she reaquainted with a school friend who was her companion. He passed away last Oct. He was sick all last summer and we knew he was not going to live long. My mom was not acting near as badly the last 8 years while she was with him. I knew she was going to be very lonely and she had always camped with my dad. When a camper came available we thought it woud give her something to do rather than setting home alone, and she would enjoy it. I knew otherwise she would dig me for her setting at home by herself all the time. Had no idea her behavior was going to get this bad. We thought we were doing something to avoid it - it has backfired...

You tried something. It didn't work. So you stop doing it, right?

Well that is easier said then done...she bought the camper and she has paid the lot rent for the year so its pretty difficult to tell her she can't go up there.

Try as I may, I simply cannot find a link between narcissism and dementia in either the PDR ( 2013), or the Merck Manual. I'll try to check the APA Journals, but so far, nothing has come up. I'll set aside Psychiatry and dig into Neurology to see what I can find.

qbearyq, yes, I can see where that would compliate things. But you are still not required to take her to use the camper. I can see where using it yourself and excluding her is not feasible under the circumstances. But not using it at all and doing something else (without her) that you enjoy makes sense to me. "Mother, we tried this camping business, but it didn't really turn out too well, did it? It doesn't seem to give you pleasure, and it is not pleasant for us to listen to you complain all weekend, so we're just going to stop doing this for a while."

Why repeatedly put yourself in a situation where everyone is miserable?

N1K2R3, a narcissistic person can develop Alzheimer's or Lewy Body, or ... any kind of dementia, just as anyone else can. But I don't think there is a connection between them. Did you understand that there is?

UPDATE: My MIL finally sent me an email. She had refused to speak to me for a little over 2-1/2 weeks. When I read her emails, I can hear her condescending tone. This is her email. Most of this is concerning one of my daughters, who left out the window on the night of my surgery (aren't teenagers great?). I understand my MIL was upset, but good grief. Those nosebleeds she is having are an ongoing problem, but not as bad as she makes them out to be. I can't tell you how many times EMS has been called in the past only for them to tell her she was fine. Below is her email to me. I replaced names in the parentheses. She always writes in upper case.

DEAR (ohjeezleweez)

LIKE YOU, I'VE BEEN SAVORING THE GREAT WEATHER WE'VE HAD ALL SUMMER! SURE HOPE THE ARRIVAL OF THE CHANGE TO WINTER WEATHER WON'T BRING UNBEARABLY LONG, GLOOMY DAYS!

GLAD TO HEAR YOU ARE FEELING ALMOST NORMAL AGAIN. BELIEVE ME, I KNOW WHAT IT'S LIKE WHEN YOU'RE FEELING "UNDER THE WEATHER" ! I HAD HEARD FROM (twin B) AND (hubby) THAT YOU WERE DOING O.K., SO I DIDN'T CALL AS I DIDN'T WANT TO DISTURB YOU. IT MUST HAVE BEEN NICE TO HAVE YOUR MOM SPEND TIME WITH YOU.

THE PAST COUPLE OF WEEKS HAVE BEEN THE USUAL NIGHTMARE FOR ME. MORE NOSEBLEEDS THAT I HAD TROUBLE CONTROLLING --- LOTS OF BLOODY LAUNDRY, ETC. I SPENT TWO DAYS FLAT ON MY BACK IN BED TRYING TO CONTROL THAT. FINALLY WHEN I NOTICED THAT THE ANEURYSM ON MY CAROTID ARTERY WAS SWELLING, I BROKE DOWN AND CONTACTED DR. (blank). EVEN THOUGH HIS LOOMING RETIREMENT HAS PRECLUDED THE SCHEDULING OF MORE PATIENTS, HE WORKED ME IN ONE LAST TIME. I RETURNED HOME AND WENT BACK TO BED AS HE INSTRUCTED. BECAUSE I WAS SO UNSTEADY ON MY FEET AT HIS OFFICE, HE ALSO SCHEDULED ME TO START MORE THERAPY SESSIONS BEGINNING AGAIN NEXT WEEK.

ON TOP OF MY SITUATION, (cat) NEEDED ATTENTION AGAIN. I FINALLY STRUGGLED UNTIL I GOT HER IN THE CARRIER BY MYSELF, AND WE WENT OFF TO THE VET. THAT CONSUMED ANOTHER WHOLE DAY.

YOU MENTIONED THAT YOU HADN'T HEARD FROM ME AT ALL --- AND THAT YOU THOUGHT MAYBE I'D CALL YOU. WELL, (ohjeezleweez), TO BE PERFECTLY UPFRONT, I WAS REALLY PISSED WITH BOTH YOU AND (hubby). WHEN WE LAST TALKED, (twin A) WAS GONE AND WORRY WAS RAMPANT.

I HAVE ALWAYS TRIED TO ACCOMMODATE THE GIRLS WHEN ASKED TO DO SO. I'VE ALSO MADE IT CLEAR THAT I HAD NO INTENTION OF BEING A PARTY TO ANYTHING THAT YOU --- AS THEIR PARENTS --- WOULD NOT CONDONE. I WAS EVERY BIT AS WORRIED AS YOU WERE ABOUT WHERE SHE WAS AND WHETHER OR NOT SHE WAS SAFE. HAVING DROPPED HER OFF AT WHAT I WAS TOLD WAS (the boyfriend's) HOUSE, I WAS REALLY CONCERNED, AND I FELT PULLED INTO THE SITUATION.

BEFORE ENDING OUR CONVERSATION, YOU SAID THAT YOU WOULD LET ME KNOW WHEN YOU LOCATED HER.. NEITHER YOU NOR (hubby) CALLED ME BACK. FURTHERMORE, YOUR PHONE HAD BEEN ADJUSTED SO THAT I COULDN'T REACH YOU WHEN I TRIED SOME HOURS LATER TO CALL YOU. I REALIZE YOU DO THAT BECAUSE YOU DO NOT WANT TO BE DISTURBED. THAT SITUATION LEAVES ME WITH NO CONTACT IN CASE OF EMERGENCY. WITHOUT MY GOOD FRIENDS, I'D FEEL REALLY UP A CREEK IF I NEEDED HELP IN A HURRY.

I COULDN'T SLEEP WITH SO MANY THOUGHTS AND THE WORRY ABOUT (twin A's) SAFETY FLOATING AROUND IN MY MIND. IT WAS A LONG, SLEEPLESS NIGHT FOR ME BECAUSE OF THAT LACK OF CONSIDERATION FOR MY FEELINGS. I DETEST THESE MOMENTS OF DISSENSION SO VERY MUCH. AND, I DEEPLY FEEL THAT CONSIDERATION NEEDS TO BECOME A PART OF EVERYBODY'S ACTIONS. WHEN PROMISES ARE NOT KEPT, I BECOME RESENTFUL --- JUST LIKE EVERYONE ELSE. BOTH OF THE GIRLS HAVE BEEN GUILTY OF FAILING TO KEEP PROMISES LATELY, TOO. AND, THAT IS SOMETHING THAT I BELIEVE NEEDS TO BE ADDRESSED.

I'M HOPING YOU WILL FEEL STRONG, RESTED, AND READY WHEN YOU RETURN TO WORK. IT'S HARD TO BELIEVE THAT IS COMING UP SO SOON.

OF COURSE, I'D LOVE TO HAVE SOME HOME GROWN TOMATOES --- CAN'T IMAGINE THEY WILL LAST MUCH LONGER WITH THE WARM WEATHER ALMOST OVER.

MY LOVE TO ALL

****I am answering back:

Hi (MIL),

Thank you for finally answering my email. I’d like to address some of the points in your email:

“I HAVE ALWAYS TRIED TO ACCOMMODATE THE GIRLS WHEN ASKED TO DO SO. I'VE ALSO MADE IT CLEAR THAT I HAD NO INTENTION OF BEING A PARTY TO ANYTHING THAT YOU --- AS THEIR PARENTS --- WOULD NOT CONDONE. I WAS EVERY BIT AS WORRIED AS YOU WERE ABOUT WHERE SHE WAS AND WHETHER OR NOT SHE WAS SAFE. HAVING DROPPED HER OFF AT WHAT I WAS TOLD WAS DANNY'S HOUSE, I WAS REALLY CONCERNED, AND I FELT PULLED INTO THE SITUATION.”

In no way did we blame you or find you at fault for driving (twin A) to (the boyfriend's) house. We believe you were completely innocent in this regard. (Twin A) was not being truthful to us or you and unfortunately it all had to come down on the day of my surgery. The situation changed and developed multiple times and needed our undivided attention to handle. Involving you with every turning event would have caused more anxiety for you and needed to be handled privately. Had she not left her phone in your car, we would have not involved you at all.

“BEFORE ENDING OUR CONVERSATION, YOU SAID THAT YOU WOULD LET ME KNOW WHEN YOU LOCATED HER.. NEITHER YOU NOR (hubby) CALLED ME BACK. FURTHERMORE, YOUR PHONE HAD BEEN ADJUSTED SO THAT I COULDN'T REACH YOU WHEN I TRIED SOME HOURS LATER TO CALL YOU. I REALIZE YOU DO THAT BECAUSE YOU DO NOT WANT TO BE DISTURBED. THAT SITUATION LEAVES ME WITH NO CONTACT IN CASE OF EMERGENCY. WITHOUT MY GOOD FRIENDS, I'D FEEL REALLY UP A CREEK IF I NEEDED HELP IN A HURRY.”

We do not adjust our phone so that you or anyone else cannot reach us. This is not a screening or do not disturb function. I have explained this to you many many times. We have a fax machine. The phone rings 4 times and then the fax machine engages. We do not have an answering machine. You know you can leave voicemails on our cell phones as you often already do. I was flat on my back in excruciating pain from surgery and was not able to use the phone any more to call anyone. You could have called (hubby) or (twin B) or emailed. You could have knocked on our door. If you can manage to get in your car and drive where you want, you can manage to come across the street. It is your choice if you choose to do nothing and then get angry about it. I believe you were aware that everyone was fine because you had (twin B) come over and pick up the Chicken Alfredo you purchased they day after my surgery from Costco and she told you we were all fine, yet you chose to continue to be angry and dwell on it. And verbally attacking (hubby) days after that when he came over to help you with your trash with cursing and shouting at him was absolutely unacceptable behavior. This kind of behavior is very alarming. If you are having this much trouble remembering events, you should speak to Dr. (blank) about this.

“I COULDN'T SLEEP WITH SO MANY THOUGHTS AND THE WORRY ABOUT (twin A's) SAFETY FLOATING AROUND IN MY MIND. IT WAS A LONG, SLEEPLESS NIGHT FOR ME BECAUSE OF THAT LACK OF CONSIDERATION FOR MY FEELINGS. I DETEST THESE MOMENTS OF DISSENSION SO VERY MUCH.

Again, you could have called (hubby) or (twin B) or emailed or come over. This was a choice you made. You knew I was not in any condition barely out of surgery to worry about following up with phone calls. You knew we were in the midst of a critical moment dealing with the situation at hand with our daughter that took great care and attention and time as parents. Perhaps you could have taken a moment to think about what we were dealing with and considered our feelings and our situation instead of just your own. If you choose to lay awake all night and dwell, that is your decision.

Everyone is at much dissension right now. We are on edge because we do not know when you are going to have an outburst or behave irrationally. We never know which (MIL) we are going to encounter. I wish you would bring this up with Dr. (blank). If you are having difficulty controlling this, it may be a sign of something serious. All four of us are upset because of the horrible things you say about me and (hubby) to our children. Perhaps you should consider my feelings when you are busy telling my children what a liar you think I am, how ignorant you think I am, how inconsiderate you think I am, and what an awful person you think I am. Perhaps you should consider (hubby’s) feelings when you do the same about him. We have remained mostly silent on this issue, but want you to know that we are made fully aware of it every time you do this. The few times I have mentioned it, you deny it or say you do not remember saying it or say that it was misunderstood. I do not believe you. I cannot understand why a grandmother would want her grandchildren hear such hateful things about their parents. There is also no need to write that scathing letter you told (twin A) about so you can reach from your grave to strike at us once more after you have passed. We already know what you think of us; you let us and our children know often enough how horrible you think we are. You have the right to think whatever you want. You do not have the right to verbally assault me or (hubby) to our children no matter how old they are. This is also not acceptable or rational behavior. Not one of us will tolerate it. It is destructive and you know it. From this point forward, I consider all of that done and buried, not open for debate, and expect that this behavior will cease and desist.

“AND, I DEEPLY FEEL THAT CONSIDERATION NEEDS TO BECOME A PART OF EVERYBODY'S ACTIONS. WHEN PROMISES ARE NOT KEPT, I BECOME RESENTFUL --- JUST LIKE EVERYONE ELSE. BOTH OF THE GIRLS HAVE BEEN GUILTY OF FAILING TO KEEP PROMISES LATELY, TOO. AND, THAT IS SOMETHING THAT I BELIEVE NEEDS TO BE ADDRESSED.”

I am not sure what you mean by not keeping promises. I know I certainly did not say “I promise to call you back.” I never say “I promise” unless it is something I know 100% I can and will be able to do. All four of us follow this principle.

I am done with the back and forth on all of this. You have said your peace and so have I. Now we move forward.

Aside from all of that, I would ask you again like we had talked in the past to come up with a list of the things you need help with. It is important to include things that will be on a recurring basis as well. It would work best if we could come up with a schedule so time can be made for these things and everyone knows what to expect. You can write down everything you need help with and we can discuss what is and is not reasonable and doable and then make a management schedule, keeping in mind that the four of us are already operating on a full-time schedule managing our household and our needs. There must be a healthy balance obtained to manage your needs while allowing us to manage our needs and this can be accomplished if we work together. The things we cannot manage can be addressed by hiring help or exploring community resources. We are definitely willing to help you, but you also have a responsibility to act appropriately toward us if you want our help. If appropriate behavior is becoming too difficult or not manageable for you, it is time for you to seek help from your physician as, again, this may be a sign of an underlying more serious problem.

Please email me your list of things you need help with once you have completed it. We can then, as a family, review it.

Love,
(ohjeezleweez)

***So, as the world turns, only time will tell to see if she takes this well or not. I don't have my hopes up very high. I don't know if I'm handling this right or not. I do feel good about her answering me in writing. I really prefer to communicate with her that way as there is no denying what was said. I still feel deep down that maybe I can get through to her, make her take some responsibility for her actions. Am I living in fantasy land? Maybe. Probably. But, at least there is some communication again.

Sorry about the long last post. It felt good to get that out. I haven't sent that to her yet. Hubby does trash at her house tonight and I don't want him to have to deal with her right after she reads this. I have second thoughts already. Everything with her always blows up in my face and then circles around and bites me in the butt.

(((((((ohjeezie))))) I doubt that you can get through to her and that she will take responsibility, but you can always hope. I hope I am wrong, My mother has just ripped up one side of me and down the other for not giving her a lot of attention for yet one more visit to the ER where they found nothing wrong with her. She has no interest in how I am, just that I will do her bidding - what's new. It is the narcissism and it is how she is wired. Just do what you have to do to protect yourself, and your family.

(((((emjo)))) - thanks emjo. Hubby went over there and she was nice to him because she wanted something printed on her computer she could not figure out. You just never know who you are going to get. I feel for you too. Nothing like spending hours in the ER for nothing. I can't wait to go back to work next week! Oh, and I forgot to send the tomatoes and she did make note of that to hubby. Another thing I will burn in hell for, lol.

My immediate thought is "too many words." It sounds like there is a lot of anger and hurt; perhaps you need a little more time before you can approach your difficult MIL dispassionately. What are you trying to accomplish? Keep it simple and concrete when you interact with her. Don't get off subject, and tell her ahead of time that you'll leave if she is rude---and then do so. Don't argue, walk out if she isn't interested in addressing the problem and just wants to gripe.. Try something like:"Let's work together to get your needs taken care of. We can help you with some things, and help you find community resources for what we can't do." (make a list as you talk)
Good luck to you. Do something nice for yourself today.

(((momsie))). You are right. My best friend read it too and said the same thing. I didn't send it because I had second thoughts. It did feel good to write it though, but I will just put it to rest now. I've got to remember to be the bigger person here and keep remembering that I am communicating with a brick wall. It hurts right now because I am the target of her anger right now. It is always at least one of us, but I'm the one who does the most and is hated the most. I know that's life. Thank goodness for all of you here and this website. I am actually pretty embarrassed that I posted that whole thing. I feel like my sanity is slipping and she is a nest of bees in my head all the time. Once I go back to work on Monday, it will get much better because I won't be sitting here dwelling on it all day.

Bless you and everyone here.

I think we all understand....and its better to let it off here....I let my mom get to me this weekend and I finally blew up and started yelling...she then calmly looked at me and said "and who needs to see a shrink". I had spent Sat with her and took her to a flea market festival out of town...When we got back we went to the camper. Sunday morning I walked my dog with my friends and her dog after checking in on her ...when we got back around 10 I went and told her we were going over to Liz's deck later to set outside. I said I was going to grab a bowl of cereal and do some other things first and I would be back after her later. I started preparing stuff for vegetable soup and Liz came back by. Said she didn't want me and mom to come by and her not be there....her dog was still wound up so she was going to take a ride down to the Iron bridge did I want to come along. Mistakenly I said yes and went. Our husbands had went into town for a "man" breakfast and were arriving when we got back. I asked my husband to go over and tell mom I would be ready in a few minutes. He came back saying she was screaming about me and how my dog was more important than her and she was way down the list. I walked over and she started in on me too, how she had set there 6 am this morning watching me out the window and I had come and gone several times and everyone, especially the dog, was more important than her. That I had told her I was coming back and instead went off with Liz and the dogs and was gone for hours. I lost my self control and started yelling telling her I had had enough. I was at the campground to rest, not be on a schedule. I have enough of that having to get up at 5:30 for work. That I not only walked for the dog but because it was healthy for me too. That I had not told her a particular time frame, and the short trip to the bridge was only 20 minutes (she kept saying it was hours). This time instead of crying or getting hysterical she was very calm which almost made it worse when she said I was the one that need a shrink...she was making me feel like I was the bad person because I was the one upset. You try so hard to be same and hold it together but we are human too.

I am an only daughter of a 86 year old father, dependent on me. He is an immigrant of poverty, who has been living in the past for years. He does not read papers, hates TV, has no relatives or friends (they are all dead) . He is a complete recluse, who says, "everything is better in my imagination" . He has been out of step with life since I was born. I have had to disassociate myself from him so as not to become like him. I have terrible guilt over this. Any advice?
Redhead

My mom says one day I will understand....I so pray I am not like her and will never get to that point...my biggest downer is her and the guilt she puts on me. I wish I could tell you how not to feel guilty but I can't help myself. Just know you are not alone, there are many in the same situation who wish you well and want to "hold your hand" to help you through.. I am sure there are many others on here who will give you better advice than I can. It is so difficult when it is someone that you love and care about and wish there was a magic pill you could give them.

I've been in similar situations all my life. Right now my 86 year old husband is probably within months of dying, - hospice says greater than 6 and won't take him, so we're on our own. For some unknown reason he is ANGRY, (He has lots he could be making amends for but doesn't see it that way) wants me at his bedside and then says mean things that are tiny bits of truth padded with lots of lies, Finally realized I have a choice - I can feel guilty or I can feel resentful - if anyone has figured out how to be neutral in such a sad situation please share the secret.

Here is my experience: Each time I get in verbal argument (and sometimes fights), afterwards I realize it was such a waste of time, my time and my emotions. Does not seem that I am learning how to ignore her. She somehow manages to get to me. My advice: let's you and me learn how to ignore. I know it is hard because I am human and and I know I will take it hard if someone I love will ignore me. But here is what I learned - she does not love me or anyone else. So if I ignore her it will not hurt her. On the contrary that makes her busy, she starts plotting new tricks to attract my attention. In fact by ignoring her, I am providing her with the entertainment she loves so much - manipulating me into her sick world.
I am really writing this convince myself to ignore and forget all the hurt she caused me throughout years