Experiencing a crisis of faith.
Even as I write this I am hesitant to make this post. However, it has been on my mind for a few years now. Religion is such a volatile subject and I hope this won't stir up a hornets nest but rather this will be a calm, respectful discussion. My family was Presbyterian. I was brought up going to Sunday school from the start. When I was around 10 yr old I asked that instead of Sunday school, could I go with mom to "the big room" with her. Even then I was looking for answers. The deal in my family was you had to go to church through the 8th grade but after that it was your choice to continuing going or not. I was not satisfied with what I was hearing so I stopped. When I was in college I took several religion classes as electives; History of Religion, World Religions, etc. Though not entirely sure what I was looking for, I knew I still hadnt found any answers. I developed my own religion of sorts - prayed daily, tried to be a good person - even wore a cross around my neck - not particularly in reference of Jesus but more of a daily commitment to be a giving, kind, generous person. I even went a couple of years watching "church on TV" - that's how I viewed it. I became a big fan of Joyce Meyer - who I still think is awesome. I would say as far as religion goes I am maybe a tiny bit more knowledge than your average American. Then in 2008 my dad got sick - never really made a complete recovery and began his descent into a steady decline - his CHF which began pretty passively really started to get a hold on him. Dads last 1 1/2 years were pretty awful for him physically although his mind was still good up until his final few weeks. I adored my father. While my childhood was pretty awful largely due to my mother - and my parents dysfunction relationship with each other - once I hit my 20's I was able to get past it in regards to my dad. My father was my best friend for the last 30 years of his life. We talked on the phone daily and were as close as any father/daughter can be. My father was always there for me - as well as my disabled son (who is named after his grandpa) he was there for my mother and my brothers too - although neither brother could get past our childhood and was never close to daddy. As far as I'm concerned this was my brothers loss and they never saw my dad for the amazing man he was. This hurt my father - he had tried for so long to make it up to my brothers - for the crappy childhood - and my heart broke for my dad. In the last month I prayed for God to take my father - i couldn't stand to see him suffering and I knew that it was what my father wanted - to end his suffering, to end being the weak helpless person he had become / he hated it. When my dad passed he was in a strange place and alone - it's a long story but in short my mother had him taken to a hospice center behind my back - on the one day in over two months that I couldn't go over to spend the day with him - I will never forgive her for this. My father vehemently did not want to go anywhere like that - he wanted to be at home and I had hired help for 18 hours a day and was in the process of making it 24 hours a day when mom had him moved. Mom did none of the care taking of dad. Okay - so my crisis of faith: why does it have to be like it is for so many of our loved ones as they age? It's painful both mentally and physically. They are robbed of their dignity, their independence, their minds, on and on in the most degrading ways possible. Where is Gods loving mercy? What is it we are meant to learn that has to be taught in the most heinous way possible? While I didn't really expect daddy to contact me from the other side I guess I did expect to feel his presence in some way - as close as we were. There is a thread going now - it's quite beautiful really - of story after story of long passed friends and relatives appearing to gently and lovingly help our loved ones "go home". Some even think Jesus himself is showing up. I'm not meaning to discount thoses stories - but could it be people are telling themselves this is what happens as a way of comforting themselves and their passing loved ones? This whole bit of being reunited - doesn't it make it easier on everyone to believe it's true? But what if when your dead - your just dead, gone? I just feel my dad is gone - forever gone. I've heard it said that faith is believing in something when there is no proof. I feel like I have lost faith. The whole "God works in mysterious ways. God has a plan" just doesn't do it for me any longer. What plan could possibly mean a good man - a man who took care of everyone in his life had to suffer in the most painful and degrading ways imaginable? I guess some of the Sunday school fire and brimstone lessons have stuck - I practically find myself looking over my shoulder for a lightening bolt as I write this. But beyond that?
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- My Mother (73) is losing her sight, breast cancer survivor and she is very negative. Any advice?
- What do you say to a Mom who only begs to go to her own home when she knows she can't?
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- Have you used counseling and has it helped?
I wanted to remember my Mom as that alert smart women, not someone who didn't know who she was and was in a coma state half the time. I am still trying to get those last day images out of my mind.
I believe in the reuniting, even though my analytical mind will try to reverse that way of thinking. I believe the "reuniting" makes it easier for us to believe that the person that died is now back with their loved ones who had passed prior.
We all were raised under different aspects of faith. I was Catholic but once my ex and I were divorced I was pretty much no longer welcomed by the church.... why go where I am not welcomed. I've been looking for something else, I want to leave a Mass/Service smiling, not feeling like I had been sinner :P
1. Is their life after death, and if there is, how can we know there is?
2. Why is there so much pain and suffering in the world?
3. If God does not have a specific plan for one's life, then how does one find purpose, meaning and direction in life?
I think you need to find a pastor who can help you with these questions.
Also, your asking questions is not going to get you struck by lightening.
I've had some painful experiences with churches myself, but have still held to my faith. I just keep remembering that not everything in the cookie jar is a cookie.
Yet, I wanted to believe. Such a nice story line! You could pretty much be a bastard 6 days out of 7, but forgiven and " blessed" on the 7th. Give me a break! Yet, I wanted to believe that I was loved so much that "someone" was willing to give their life so that I could know and be one with creation and the creator of all. It broke my heart not to know. But there was no proof-- for me. And then there was☺️! That is the clue, your life, faith and love (and trials) are yours.
My mother could never love me. Her dementia made all much worse. I disassociated my emotions from what was happening. I hired help, kept her home and kept her out of pain with hospice help. Now my husband is showing early signs. Oh my, this is a hard "ride" sometimes. Try to find joy, and love. A big gentile dog helps at night 🐾
If you have some time, read history textbooks from pre-history, especially focusing on civilizations and how they viewed religion, or spiritual beliefs. But the texts should be on development of civilizations as well as development of the higher functions, such as the analysis of nature, weather, mathematical and scientific theories.
Compare the Egyptian, Greek and Roman religions, the latter 2 with their very humanlike gods with personality disorders and personal idiosyncracies (more like we humans). Consider the Egyptian and other earlier civilization's gods - the various functions which they were believed to control and how the people of those eras believed the gods controlled life, harvests, weather and other aspects of life for them.
The Roman (alleged) empire is especially important because of the anti-humanistic approach toward the populace, especially those of conquered countries. Juxtapose that to the preachings of Jesus Christ, and compare how a more humanistic belief developed. This I think is one of the most critical periods for the development of a philosophy that provided an alternate to the brutality of the Roman "empire".
When you view a lot of these issues from a historical perspective, it's easier to see that early peoples who knew nothing of science needed explanations for weather events, for sickness and death, for crop failures. Their system of gods explained this, including the vindictiveness of some of the gods. Their belief in these gods provided explanations that in their primitive minds made sense. Today, fortunately, we don't believe that sacrifice is necessary for a good harvest or for benevolent treatment by the "gods".
I suggest this historical study b/c it allows a person to step outside of his or her own religious background and put the issue of belief in all powerful beings in more perspective.
I assume some will probably attack these next comments, but so be it. I've always felt that we humans have until the development of scientific and mathematical explanations felt as if we were at the mercy of the elements, of nature, and often of unstable dictators or rulers (and many still are). That's a very scary thought; just reading about the overflow of the Mississippi now scares me as I see houses and roads being washed away. Nor can I imagine living in Syria or any other county with raging political and personal violence.
What person wouldn't want protection from these vagaries of life? We in advanced or post industrial countries have technological protection, up to a point. But we can't stop tornadoes, hurricanes or blizzards. The thought of being at the mercy of these violent outbursts is frightening.
Some people provide for survival by stockpiling, building bunkers. Some people move to safer areas. Some people believe in a higher power. I think it's only natural to hope that there's something to protect us.
Then there's the reality, as you mentioned it, as well as the devastation caused by natural disasters or the pain of illness.
There's somewhat of a corollary to be seen in the development of civilization and a law enforcement venue. The Catholic Church played a role during times well before development of a formal police force, in creating a system of acceptable behaviors and social mores. Medieval life and development of the feudal system began to affect that role. Now we have laws, made by men and women, to govern behavior. The bad Sheriff of Nottingham no longer reigns terror over innocent civilians.
So, in today's society, where does religion fit in? Can it explain the questions you asked, to your satisfaction? If not, can anything, and I think that's where science and medical theory come into play.
As I read some of the posts here, in AARP bulletins and in news media, it's clear that facing the vagaries of 21st century life is still very uncertain, and some people rely on religion for answers. Others don't; some rely on themselves. It's difficult to accept though that we are essentially left to our own devices to protect ourselves from literally anything. For those people living in poor areas, with little chance of advancing past basic subsistence, what hope is there? Perhaps that's where their religious beliefs give them hope to belief that there's a better life after death. They certainly don't have it here.
I think the questions you pose are valid, thoughtful, insightful, and certainly worthy of analysis. I don't think there are any answers, though. I do believe each person has to decide for her or himself how much to rely on herself or himself, or whether to place faith in a deity that, as you wrote, has "mysterious ways", his/her (and I won't concede that any deity can only be male) own plans, etc.
Nor do I feel that anyone who feels as if she or he has "lost the faith" should be subject to criticism. Believe in deities or a god(s) isn't mandatory. The choice to believe in a religion is highly individual, and for many, there is no "proof".
Seeking counselling from a pastor gets you banal platitudes and bible references that boil down to the "how can you not believe, just look at the wonders of the world around you" kind of thinking. I was taught that faith is a gift of the holy spirit, so I spent many years praying for the gift of faith. I went to church hoping I might catch it through osmosis and I still receive communion in the faint hope that it may bestow a miraculous transformation. A good friend has urged me to explore other kinds of spirituality as she has found her faith outside of organized religion. Bottom line is that I don't feel it, anywhere, but I wish I could.
Life can be an ordeal. My family history is about as tragic as it gets. I understand the need to believe there's some reward beyond this life and I in no way disrespect these beliefs. I just ask that people respect my right not to believe. I'm not arrogant about this. I'm not an intellectual or educated person. I could be dead wrong. Imagine my surprise if I wake up some bright day in heaven, or hell, (more likely) and there's my town drunk uncles and all the rest of the gang!
Rain moms post is heartfelt and thoughtful as are the responces in the thread. It's a good discussion to have.
"God never gives you more than you can handle."
"Poor Coy! Too bad he married me."
"Oh, no! It was perfect that he married you. You are so strong and compassionate."
"Yes, but if he'd married someone who couldn't handle his care, God wouldn't have given him dementia. He wouldn't give her something she couldn't handle, right?"
That particular saying drives me nuts!
You inspire me to carry on.
At 47, Bill had a nasty heart attack, bypass surgery, pacemaker. He recovered and went right back to work. We were grateful.
Two years later, he got cancer. It was aggressive and merciless. We chased that cancer all over his body........chemo, surgeries, etc. His pain was horrific. The kids and I were helpless. His pain was agonizing and long. (BTW, Bill saw angels the day before he died etc but I wanted MORE. Doubts kept coming - "it was those pain meds......that's all it was. No angels.....just drugs")
When he died....................I went to a very dark place and my faith was ?? gone.
I had hoped that somehow Bill would let me know he was all right.
But all I got was deafening silence. Where was God?
Emotionally, I curled up into a ball and covered my eyes and stayed there. I doubted everything. It was dark. It was awful.
About 7 months into grieving, I remember thinking I should try to pray again. But I was afraid to do it. If I tried to find God again, and He wasn't there................then it would be true. Bill was gone forever and I would never see him again. So I stayed in the dark. Afraid to look.
Finally, months later, I dared to look for God. I peeked out of the darkness and tried to pray. I was sincere and I was ready. Started reading and listening to some Christian apologetics teachers. (Not the goofy ones - yikes). My faith came back.......hope came back..........a wonderful way of life came back. Living in the light and with hope brings peace to a troubled soul.
. Without it, I have nothing.
When my mom was dying in the hospital I too had my moments of doubts. But my faith sustained my Mom all through her life and she had a very tough life. But she endured all with her faith and good spirit intact. Her example that she set for me was what helped me throughout my life. Who am I to question God and why the things that happen happen? His wisdom is infinite. He knows the end from the beginning. I know that I've learned more from the tough times in my life than the good times. Did I enjoy the tough times when they were happening? Not at all. But I can look back with confidence now and see why I had to go through them.
If what I have said sounds trite and naive to some of you, sorry. But I truly believe that there is a reason for everything that happens. Its our job to do good here on earth. God works through us.
I can look at the beautiful cloud formation and think in terms of atmospheric conditions, heat, moisture, and whatever else might contribute to their stunning beauty. Someone else might say it's a god given creation - take it on faith.
Some people need proof (I'm one); others don't. Not everyone wants verification on a nonfaith based level that certain things exist. And I those people can be served by religion because it isn't scientific. But for those who need and want proof (and I fully support that position), there needs to be something more than what religion offers.
So many of Christianity's foundations are based on extraordinary circumstances that don't really exist other than in the world or religion. Is that revealing? I think so.
I guess its a bit like Santa for me (Sorry and no offence intended) but I used to believe now I don't. Call me doubting Thomas if you will but that is the way I feel It is said God only gives us that which we can endure. Well Im sorry but that doesn't wash with me.
Why should people ENDURE why should my amazing father be put through the indignity of pain and a slow lingering death while other more vile people get the swift heart attack. Why should anyone have to endure the atrocities of holocaust or genocide or religious fatwahs or any other thing done in the name of religion. Why should innocents have to suffer the appalling atrocities that others foist upon them?
I do however believe that for those who do have faith then it is a wonderful support through difficult times and in times gone by and even today I can understand their reliance on it but it just isn't for me
RainMom, have you ever read any of Nietzsche's writings, or Karl Marx, who in some ways viewed religion as a means to cope with oppressions of unjust societies (simply put - his philosophies were much more complex).
I think one can always ask oneself for what purpose you feel you should or must believe in a religion? Does it help you cope with life or does it impose a set of beliefs which you find challenging? Does it give you comfort or provide solace? What value if any does it add to your life? I would think those would be some questions to ponder when trying to decide whether or not to accept the basic principles of Christianity as well as the wide variety of differing principles of versions thereof.
No one is obligated to believe in a religion; fortunately humans have free will and can exercise it without being obligated to accept religion which in its various forms often has mandatory principles of belief.
Adherence to human made laws is mandatory, as is compliance with IRS regulations. That's more than enough mandated obligations for me.
Having had many experiences in my life, I do believe in the spirit world but I can't condone religion in any shape or form when so many wars and killings have been done under its guise. I defend anyone's right to believe in what they wish but when they push it in other people's faces it's a deal breaker.
I have a crazy bible thumping woman across the road ... unfortunately the only house for a mile. When I first lived here, almost 3 years ago, she was all over me quoting scriptures, trying to take my life over and dictate how I should live and what I should do with my property. One summer afternoon, as she jumped up and down screaming about satan, I snapped and threw her off the front lawn. She hasn't come near me since except for some blistering, accusatory, threatening emails containing scriptures and comments proving that she spies on me with binoculars.
She hides in her house with some 40 unfixed, unshotted cats, doesn't work and doesn't drive. Hubby, a harmless sad little man, takes her shopping for groceries and umpteen cases of beer on Saturday morning. There is never a visitor. I don't watch them but my little dog parks herself in the front window and screams at anything that moves and, with incidences of rabies in the area lately ... I had a sick racoon come after me recently ... I check out what she's screaming at.
I've saved her emails in case I have to ever get a restraining order but, since she discovered my career was in the legal profession, she'll be too scared to come near me. I find it sad and feel sorry for them both.
I saw something recently that sums it up ... "Religion is like a p*n*s. I'm happy for you to have it, love on it and worship it but whip it out and wave it in my face and we have a problem".. Sorry folks, but that's just my feeling. You can murder someone on Saturday and trot off to church on Sunday ... excuse me?
But how does one reconcile the beliefs of Mormons with Baptists for example. Both groups have starkly different views of heaven and hell and what gets you to either place. Both groups have absolute faith (there's that term again) that their beliefs are correct and spend time praying for the souls of those who don't share their views. I'm not picking on these two groups, we could list hundreds of popular religions and the sects within many, but it's just mind boggling when you consider all the vastly conflicting "faith based" doctrines that are totally incompatible with each other, let alone any rational thought.
As a kid I was taught that only those that attended my church and believed as we did would get into heaven. All the rest would perish in everlasting hells fire and brimstone. It seemed to me that heaven was going to have lots of elbow room.
Even within Christianity there is a spectrum of fundamentalist, evangelical, moderate, modernist, and extreme liberal.
There are also books that make an intelligent case for Christianity itself and those which do so in contrast to other religions.
The biggest challenge to belief is the problem of suffering in the world.
Personally, I don't think that God has an exact, predetermined map or plan for each individual person. That removes free will and removes any responsibility for one's choices. No where in the Bible does it say that God will not allow suffering to come into out lives that is more than we can bear. Some follow the suggestion of Job's wife to curse God and die. However, others chose to not curse God and give up even with the suffering not making any sense like Job did.
I also get very tired of those who try to explain some lesson that someone is supposed to learn from suffering for there is not always an explanation for the suffering. My second cousin died from a bullet fired by a policeman at a criminal that missed him and traveled as a stray bullet which killed my second cousin who was delivering the mail in a troubled neighborhood. Who is at fault? Why did this happen? There aren't any clear answers. I put puzzles like this in God's hands who is much greater than me.
From my perspective, life is risky, painful, often chaotic and sometimes one breath away from catastrophe or death itself. Often what takes place in my life and in the lives of others can be because of something I did or did not do or because of my human limitations or moral condition. Or things can take place in my life or others because of what others do or don't do depending on their human limitations or moral condition. However, that still does not answer for all suffering. We live in a fallen world in which the last enemy is death.
Personally, I believe that there is no suffering so dark or problematic catastrophic hole that God's love and presence is not deeper yet despite regardless if we feel his presence or not. There were many times in Mother Teresa's life that she did not feel God but she kept believing. No where in the Bible is faith defined as a feeling, but as trust. To live by feelings is very shaky ground for me.
Can you imagine what life would be like if we didn't have free will. We would be like robots. Yeah, there would be no starving, genocide, war etc. but if we were all the same, what would be the point. I believe and I know that if I didn't have my faith, life would of been even harder than it has been.
But, its the age old argument. Plus there are fanatics in every walk of life. People who take a simple idea and turn it into a cause. There are many christians out there who don't jump on you with their thoughts and try to ram them down their throats. I don't go around preaching to people. If someone asks I'll tell them.
As for me, I realize through my experiences that I've been given more than enough reason to believe...there is scripture and the Mass which is always the Mass even when the music is bad or the sermon boring. My son and I recently reread Job together...has not quite convinced him to come back to the faith, but I see goodness in him and pray every day. The abuses of religion are a major reason people leave the faith, because one would suppose that given the truth and the desire to to good, all religious people would, but, well, one would seem to be wrong. Churches are more like hospitals for sinners than museums for saints as the saying goes. And in my Church, its a special jubilee Year of Mercy...Lord knows we need it!!
I think one of the hard answers to suffering is this: to make the world free of suffering, God would have to control us to the point of having no life or will of our own, like Camazotz in the old Madeleine L'Engle story, and that would be a greater evil from His point of view. So, He did what He did instead, and part of Christianity's answer is that He then chose to share our suffering with us, promising to be with us in it and a way to triumph over it all in the end.
I often run into 2 extreme views about suffering. .
1. One is that everything good and bad that takes place in our lives was predestined to take place anyway.
In this outlook, God becomes responsible for making everything predestined in our lives and we nor anyone else has any responsibility for anything that takes place. One of the most common expressions that I've heard of this outlook is when someone tries to comfort a grieving parent by telling them that God needed another angel in heaven which makes God the heavy for the child's death.
2. The other is that since we have free will, that we are totally in control of everything that takes place in our lives and if it does not take place, it is entirely our fault and ours alone. In this outlook,
In this outlook, God becomes viewed as either irrelevant or the means by which we gain and/or accomplish everything we want. This is practical atheism and a utilitarian view of God by others. While some live like God does not exist, that does not mean God has ceased existing or that people do not need God in their lives.
While some live like they think they can control God to make them prosperous and successful, that does not mean that God is a gene in a bottle or a teller two machine that we just have to plug into with the right formula. I hear this often when someone is told that they are not healed from their depression because they don't have enough faith or that they are not prosperous because they did not claim certain scripture passages to make them prosperous as if those verses were the access code for getting into the teller two machine. Trying to manipulate God to get what we want is not faith, it's magic and magic is not biblical. An attempt to relate to God magically leads ultimately to a person acting as if God died and left them in control which is not true.
Unlike the rest of the people around them, magic was looked down upon for Israel. Also, contrary the religious culture of the ancient near east and elsewhere where idols were worshiped because of a belief that they controlled the weather, crops, fertility, etc, Israel was commanded to not make any idols and when they did, they got in big trouble. Idol worship is also a form of magic. People who live with a magical view of God are worshiping an idol of how they have shaped God to be in their mind. We don't find a magical approach to God in the Old Testament or the New Testament as being on target.
For me, faith in God is a relationship of trust which recognizes God as God and does not try to reshape God like we want God to be or by making the world the end and faith the means. It is a relationship in which we realize that God is our creator and that we live in a world like it is because of the risky business of free will which God gave Adam and Eve which they messed up by sinning against God.
So, neither absolute determinism nor absolute free will really fit with either the Bible or today's world of good and evil which is only more technologically advanced, but human nature remains the same.
This is where I'm coming from.
Barnacles are like the tragedies of life.
On a wooden ship they destroy its life.
Those who run into barnacles are diced.
Barnacles can shipwreck your or another’s life.
Ever hear that hurt people, hurt people too?
How can this not be true of me and you?
If we refuse to feel the pain and anger of being diced.
We end up numb and dumb just like ice.
To forever nurse the pain,
Leads to never being free to love again.
We cannot chose to be or not to be hurt by the barnacle like tragedies and people in life.
However, we can chose not to let them make us like a barnacle in another’s life.
To be or not to be a barnacle is the question for tonight.
To feel hurt and anger, but sin not is a difficult fight.
However, it is the biblical way to a better day.
Yet holding on to it and nursing it digs a dark and dreary day.
People, we do this as if it will somehow accomplish something.
But in all honesty, that choice accomplishes nothing.
The phrase "scientifically proven" is a great marketing tool, but science does not prove anything absolutely. A good scientist will say something along the lines of "the evidence supports the theory that ..." but will never say "my theory is proven, look at this data."
While truth is the absolute goal, we can always gather or discover more data which means that perfect certainty cannot be known. Thus, scientists often use statistics to measure the confidence level that the data gives in support for their theory.
This leaves one with a confidence or probability level for explaining something based on the ranking of the evidence which either adds or subtracts from the probability of something being correct. Not all evidence is of equal probability rank just like in a court of law.
Everyone has presuppositions and those will automatically preclude some evidence while including other evidence. Therefore, a person's presuppositions will shape their reasoning about the evidence which means that complete, impartial, objective reasoning is not totally possible. Anyway, we humans are not as rational in how we live as much as we would like to think that we are.
So, looking at the basis of one's knowledge claim and one's presuppositions behind those claims must be thought through by means of critical thinking.
Otherwise, one is left with easily believing something or easily not believing something without the hard work of thinking either through.
It is far too easy to skip inductive thinking with its focus on observation, questioning, and interpreting and jump right into deductive thinking with selective "proofs", upon which conclusions and applications are made.