Grief and Death for Non-Believers
I don't know if there is any interest in a thread like this. But I am on my third round of losing a parent (father, stepmother, now mother), and I find myself so frustrated and irritated by the religiosity that is pushed on me when I'm dealing with issues grief and death. You may know the kind I'm talking about. "They're going to a better place." Or, "You'll see them again someday!" Or, "Take comfort in god." Or, "Trust in god, this is part of his plan." I know people are usually well-meaning, but I DON'T find comfort in that at all. I find it dismissive of my own belief system, to be honest.
As it is, I have a really hard time with death. Because I don't believe that I'll see them again, my grief seems all the more devastating. It also makes me fear death far more than I did when I was a believer. I notice this in my mother too - she has never been a believer, even back when I was, and now she is hanging on to a life of suffering because it's better than ceasing to exist. I don't even know how to comfort her myself. It would be easier to deal with all this if I could just believe in some kind of afterlife, but I don't. I have wrangled with spiritual issues all my life, and my conclusion is that....I HOPE there's something, but I really don't think there is.
Anyone else in this non-believer boat and want to join me in wrangling with your own death and grief issues here? Or maybe you're a believer who doesn't know how to comfort non-believers, but would like to explore that?
(I strongly urge the religious folks on this board to avoid using this thread as an opportunity to proselytize to an already vulnerable group of people.)
When my stepmother was dying, it was definitely death she feared. She was not afraid of dying itself; she was the bravest person I've ever known when it comes to dying. It was not knowing what did or didn't come next, and particularly the religious concepts of death that had been fed to her from early childhood, that caused her stress. While she had left the world of faith behind her, in her dying days, she was clearly agitated by the fears her mother had instilled in her, and continued to push on her even when she was long into adulthood - that she was going to hell, that the devil was going to get her, etc. (Edit: Her mother raised her with constant threats of eternal damnation and suffering, and even in later life, told her she was going to hell for divorcing her first husband. Her mother never let up on this, to her own dying day.)
I felt quite dumbstruck when it came to this. I didn't know what to say, how to comfort her. The only moment of death-related (as opposed to dying-related) comfort I ever remember providing her was when she grabbed me by the upper arms, stared into my eyes, and insistently asked, "Are you afraid of the devil?" My reply was, "There is no devil. I don't know what happens next, but if there's one thing I do know, it's that there's no devil and there's no hell to be afraid of." And she laid back on her bed, satisfied. Maybe more satisfied that she had successfully inculcated me against that fear, rather than actually believing what I said, though! I'll never know....
NomadSE - I've been following some of that quantum theory myself, about the connectedness of the universe. The concept that all matter is connected, and therefore one particle's action causes another particle's reaction, makes me imagine all the matter in the universe as a gigantic version of the butterfly effect! I don't necessarily think of universal connectedness as a version of god though. Maybe something bigger than god. Beyond god, or beyond our current, simplistic concept of a god. It's definitely a theory that appeals to me!
Ali - I totally appreciate what you're saying. And when someone tries to comfort me using religious language, I also try to be polite about it. What I find hard, and a huge part of the reason I started this thread, is not knowing how to comfort other non-believers. For example, as a non-believer, my mother is terrified of dying, terrified of ceasing to exist. And it's all well in theory to say: if there's nothing then you won't know you're dead, so it doesn't matter. But that doesn't help alleviate her fears. Her fear is a thing that matters. And as someone who feels similarly as a non-believer, the concept of nothing doesn't alleviate my own fears about my death, either. I can think intellectually about the idea of consciousness coming to an end, but I don't want my consciousness to come to an end, so it also hits me in a primal fear kind of way! If that makes sense. So I understand how my mother feels completely, and at the same time, I have no idea what to say to her that would ease her anxiety about dying.
cwillie - I'm glad to know you think the mods are pro-free speech, and I also appreciate that this thread (and the believers' thread too) has been allowed to exist. I agree totally that it's kind of impossible to talk about grief and death without also bringing spiritual concepts (or lack of spiritual concepts) into it. I can't imagine talking about one without being able to talk about the other.
jeannegibbs - I feel a lot the same way - it's not that I am offended by words of spiritual comfort. Rather, it's that those words are meaningless to me, and so they don't comfort me. I think when people offer spiritual comfort, they are often using the only tools they have at their disposal, and do genuinely mean well. And, I mean, as someone who also doesn't always know how to comfort non-believers (such as the situation with my mother I described above), I am just as interested in expanding my own toolbox as wanting to encourage others to expand theirs.
I would not mind "offending someone" into the kingdom of God, but I also believe in following the rules of the country I am visiting.
So I feel that Dorianne made up her own rules that excluded me.
Of course I was offended.
So I quietly pray for people posting on the unbelievers thread, it is like a mission field with everyone all in one thread, it saves time. I can say that, as Windyridge freely posted about lawsuits against having a cresche in the town square.
Having specific threads designated for believers and unbelievers is exclusionary, from any perspective.
When CWillie first posted, about being uncomfortable about being expected to participate in communion, my belief about receiving communion (not in an unworthy manner/brings condemnation to oneself) made me wonder what is wrong with that minister, teaching error.
However, I have not posted. Not because I don't care about unbelievers and their beliefs, but I avoid debates and disputes, mostly, often, I think. Caring, compassion, and comfort are important, and are universal. But faith in the Lord God Almighty is personal.
I can't help wondering if God is something that we just don't understand now. Some significantly advanced science as to appear as a god.
But to refer to how to comfort a non believer, I'm in favor of the simple, heartfelt "I'm so sorry for your loss". Is there any way I can help you?
The colors of the rainbow so pretty in the sky
Are also on the faces of people going by
I see friends shaking hands saying how do you do
They're really saying I love you
We express care and concern for each other in many ways, and most often people will express in a way they themselves would appreciate and want to hear.
I identify as agnostic-atheist. When someone shares their belief in the comfort of god with me, I appreciate that it's something that comforts them and that's all they're trying to convey. If it crosses into proselytizing, then I politely bow out. If politeness isn't an option (i.e., with my own mother), then I snark a little and I figure now they REALLY have a reason to be concerned for my eternal soul.
But the point is the same that's been mentioned a few times already: there's no harm meant by offering these words of comfort, and quite the opposite, it's someone's way of saying "I love you, I care about you, I wish you comfort." And so I accept that, w/o needing to police or analyze their choice of words.
That's just me. :-) It makes my life easier to approach things this way. My family is quite religious and prayers and ideas about faith are part of every gathering. I don't want them to ask me to change, so I don't ask them to change.
I've been on this forum for many years. I shared many personal stories about my husband's journey with dementia, and learned from other people's stories. But when he died I was reluctant to make a big announcement of that, because I just didn't think I was up for all the condolences I would get that would be meaningless to me. It isn't that I would be "offended" by being assumed to be a Christian, but that I would feel belittled by the assumption. Hey, it isn't only people who share your beliefs who are worthy of being comforted.
Many of the people who make assumptions about the faith of others are kind, considerate, compassionate. They would never mean to belittle. But they have no clue whatsoever how to offer comfort without putting it in terms of their own beliefs. So I think this is a good topic, but I also think believers and non-believers alike ought to try to educate themselves about it.
BTW, I think the condolence threads have improved a lot here over the years. But I still would cringe if some of the "comfort" were aimed at me.
But........................having said that, I don't post on Smashque's thread and I won't post on this thread either. Carry on!
I don't think it's harming anyone, is it? No one has to read or participate in the threads. People post bible quotes and religious sentiment all over the other threads and I don't get a choice about seeing it in that context.
To be honest, I started this thread because I was often being consoled or comforted with religious sentiment in other threads - I hoped to encourage other ways to respond to someone's grief and loss. And I wanted input myself on how to console or comfort a dying non-believer (like my mother).
I think we are being pretty respectful to one another here.
Do you have any specific concerns about it, besides general policy?
I am a strong believer but I have no interest in getting into a discourse with fellow believers or non- believers on the Aging Care website. Privately maybe, but not on a public forum.
And I totally get why you are mad. I think it's harder for believers to understand our experience.....it's often quite alien to believers. We - and especially you folks in America - live in a culture where belief (and in America, the Christian faith especially) is still the norm, so I think trying to explain things in faith-based language (and again, in America, the language of Christianity) comes automatically to believers.
I know you need time to grieve, but I hope, when you're ready you can come in and tell us what this experience has been like for you, what might be more helpful or compassionate to you as a grieving non-believer. We (non-believers, or even just agnostics, which I think is closer to what I am) are the minority in a dominant culture of faith, so it's up to us to educate others on HOW to console or relate to us and other non-believers.
Bill Phipps "was elected to the post of Moderator at the 36th General Council of the United Church in August 1997. Only a short time after his installation, he ignited widespread controversy inside and outside the church when, in an interview with the Ottawa Citizen editorial board, he questioned the resurrection of Jesus as a scientific fact, said he was undecided on the question of the afterlife, and "I don’t believe Jesus was God." (Bill Phipps wikipedia)
And by "new age" I was referring to the modern tendency to pick and choose which parts of doctrine to believe, discarding core tenets and often adding in practices and beliefs from completely different religions.
cwillie says "I love the "new age" christians, they sort of just make sh*t up as they go along.... add a little of this, subtract a little of that.... kinda like when the head of the united church said it wasn't necessary to believe Jesus is god..."
I don't know anything about the united church and couldn't find much. Is it "new age"? Does it claim to be Christian?
The Unitarian Univeralist Association does not require faith in Jesus or even in God. This is definitely not a "new age" organization. The "Unitarian" part is a claim that there is only one god, and rejects the concept of a trinity. The "Universalist" part embraces spiritual/religious concepts from many sources, including but not exclusively Christian sources.
Most members do believe in god and some members believe in Jesus (as a wise spiritual leader, mostly). But there is no creed that says they must. Saying you don't need to believe that Jesus is god is not in this case "new age Christian" because they aren't claiming to be Christian. No irony here.
There are 7 principles that are the core of UUA belief. Beyond them, members may have differing views of god or gods.
And Dorianne you open great conversations. I’m a believer (not proselytizing in your thread) but I guess I’m in the middle lane, why? Because I get the feeling that this seems to be divided in two groups, the group of I need to see to believe and the other of I believe therefore I see.
I actually have always believed, but believe even more now because I’ve seen, plain and simple. And I know I didn’t convince myself that I was experiencing something...I was experiencing something, no shadow of a doubt. Like I said I’ve always been a believer, raised catholic and will always be because that’s part of my identity; yet I’ve also always been open to getting to know other people’s beliefs from other religions or no religions. All is so interesting!
Yet, personally I’ve no doubts, and like I said I’m a mid lane type of person in this group, because I’ve been privileged enough to say I’ve seen God’s footprints in my path, tangibly. How situations have been presented in front of me, or changed -drastically, unbelievably!- as a response to my prayer..or even without prayer. Things that otherwise would have no explanation. Thing that make us have that feeling we are all familiar with, believers or not, when we know, we feel, that something is true and is happening.
I had a conversation with my mother not long ago, where she -who’s very, very religious- told me that to be honest she hadn’t been privileged to receive any miracles in her entire life. While I can tell you, in my half-her-life time I’ve experienced at least three tangible miracles...yes, not shying away from recognizing them as such, and that’s not even counting the daily ones that I tend to oversee.
When my mom told me that, I looked at her thinking and realizing that in life what we perceive and believe all depends on our perspective. Because all the miracles I count involved her, yet she doesn’t realize them. Yes, we lived them differently, maybe I got a clear first hand response kind of thing, but she was definitely involved.
So, we each believe and therefore see what we each have set ourselves up to see or believe.
You say Dorianne that you wish you could believe and have faith, and I think that’s completely up to you. Really. It requires a lot of humility to accept that not all that happens in our lives is determined by our human condition, and the epitome of that is exactly the point of your topic: Death.
If we are it, the highest power of existence, then who handles death? Do you all think it is logical that life really ends there, and that’s it? What was the purpose of existence then, just going through the motions of life and then..The End?
From an strictly logical point of view, I don’t find that logical!
Actually I find that pretty much more illogical than what any religion may teach, because through their prisms at least life has a purpose.
None of what I’ve shared here is meant to convince anyone to believe or not, that’s a very personal decision. I’ve just shared my reality, not even my faith, but my reality.
As to the core question, I don’t know. Really don’t know what could be said that could provide some sort of consolation, other than maybe being grateful for having had the opportunity to know the person, and love the person -by the way, love is intangible too and defiant of logic, yet we all love!-.
I do believe that most of my agnostic friends are actually great human beings that do good not because the Bible or Koran or anything or anyone tells them to, but because they like doing good. They are also very intelligent (therefore their inquisitive and challenging nature).
One thing I know religion or spiritual beliefs are not meant to do is to separate. Whoever feels that believing makes them superior, meaning better than others, is mistaken. If anything, we are lucky, very!, because God is an amazing resource to have. But we are not better.
Thank you for starting interesting conversations that get people thinking and sharing ideas, questions and responses. Best way to learn is to learn from one another!
Ps. Very sorry about your mom Dorianne, reading this thread I realized she’s really not well, but I know she’s lucky (very lucky!) having you by her side, walking down this path of life with her! A hug sent your way)
We spoke about the gardens she had made and flowers she loved .
We told her we loved her and that we were there
And I believe that we all have a soul. It is separate to the brain.
And we are alive with our first breath, perhaps that’s when the souls enters and it leaves with our last ( according to my Jewish friends mother) a
And where the soul came from, it goes back to ( according to my grandfather)
And there has to be something greater than us, be it spirit, love, energy
We are small pieces of the bigger part. That’s where we go ( according to me)
That’s how far I’ve got!
SueC1957: I don't go into the believers' thread to write "there's no shred of evidence of god and if you want to believe a talking snake that's your choice" or "if you choose to worship a god who'd allow a good person to be tortured by disease that's up to you" as that would be rude. I don't understand why a believer would come onto a non-believers' thread to parrot these beliefs.
From my perspective, as a non-believer, when someone talks to me about god's role or motives in my LO's illness and death, god's mercy or whatever....it doesn't matter if there are 275 different spiritual explanations for why. When I'm in my moment of fresh grief and loss, it just upsets me, period. I personally don't CARE what god's role or motives are, or whether god wants people to wear black or white to funerals, because I don't believe in god. And when I'm in that overwhelming moment, the last thing I want is to have to engage in a conversation about something I consider false, and then have to find a way not to be rude about it.
What I hear in those moments is someone who has no comprehension of MY experience of grief and loss. What I hear is someone who is incapable of offering me comfort, because they can't understand MY experience. I feel MORE disconnected from the person trying to offer me comfort through spirituality than I did before they attempted it, and now I feel responsible for their feelings on top of my own.
I mean absolutely no offense in saying this. And I'm speaking more from past experience, trying to explain what those moments feel like from my perspective.
MY experience of grief and loss is that of a big empty hole inside my heart and a permanent void in my life. That person (or even animal) is gone to me forever. I will never see them again. Ever. I will never laugh with them or cry with them, touch them or hold them, never share any new experiences with them, never have another chance to atone for mistakes I've made with them. The only part of them I have left, or will ever have again, is the part that exists inside my memories. And the main source of comfort to me is that their suffering has ended.
The thing is, I'm totally capable of talking to my spiritual friends, during their times of grief and sorrow, in a way that supports their belief systems, and I can do it without betraying my own beliefs. I can talk to my friends about what the bible says, what this interpretation or that one might mean, what direction their faith might be telling them to go in....I can ask them questions and offer sympathy and encourage them to continue to seek comfort in their faith.....without ever once feeling the need to say, "But, you know, I believe there IS no god, and the dead are gone forever and we'll never see them again, but that's just my beliefs." Because I can imagine how they might feel if I did.
I hope that makes sense. Again, I really mean no offense, and I don't want to discourage you from posting here. I just hope we can all come to a way of understanding one another a little better.
Oh....on the grief rage thing, yeah. I'm experienced, lol. When my stepmother died of breast cancer, the first thing I saw after leaving her hospice was a cardboard "pink ribbon" display in the convenience store next door. The kind designed by the breast cancer "industry" that promotes "awareness," selling overpriced, be-ribboned merchandise made by corporations whose products are part of the cause of breast cancer. My stepmother hated that pink ribbon nonsense, and believed strongly that "Pink Ribbons" was an actual industry built around the premise of profiting from her illness.
No one will ever know how close I came to hurling that pink cardboard display through the window that day.
Also when my dad was dying, and the nurse told me the minister had been to see my father, I whirled around and growled through my teeth, "HE'S AGNOSTIC."
Now that I'm in menopause, I'm pretty sure somebody is going to need to duck on the day I lose my mother.
Grief rage is real!
I found a topic on AC about this; Is rage part of grief? by Missouriflower written 2 years ago. (I'm kinda' not too good at giving the link, sorry.) I googled "grief rage" and Missouriflower's post on this board popped up first. You might be interested in the thread. I'm so sorry that your mom is terminal and you have to cope with that.
From grief.com;
"The five stages, denial, anger, bargaining, depression and acceptance are a part of the framework that makes up our learning to live with the one we lost. They are tools to help us frame and identify what we may be feeling. But they are not stops on some linear timeline in grief."
Elisabeth Kubler-Ross and David Kessler wrote some good stuff on this very subject. We had to study it as part of our nursing program back in the 70's.
Mountain Moose,
I don't want to make you madder. I probably have no right to post here, as I am a believer and this thread is for non-believers. However, I do not give my views expecting that anyone should believe them.
I, too, am disgusted that my mom has dementia. It seems so unfair that someone looses their mind then slowly dies from it. The same with people dying from other diseases.
IMO, what I've learned about God from reading the Bible, is that God doesn't GIVE people the illnesses and but He ALLOWS them to happen. Yeah, that still sounds pretty mean but I think there's a big difference. What I read was that when Adam and Eve went against God's 1 rule, sin entered the world. And disease is part of sin that people suffer.
Yeah, I know WE didn't disobey God but man's nature is part sinful. Believers and non-believers both reap the effects of sin sealed thousands of years ago. Believers believe that they will go to Heaven, where there is no sin. So, while we won't see a perfect world here, we are promised a sinless existence (for the soul) there if we believe.
I have no problem with whatever anyone believes (or doesn't) and I'll honor your right to have it. I hope you're not offended by what I've said. Just trying to give a different perspective.
I think I might violate AC code if I start talking about Darth Trump on here.
I am also sick of the internet memes with Jesus standing behind Trump saying a new moral compass for our country. I don't think so.
My neighbour at home told me yesterday she'd put my mom in her prayers, and it didn't really effect me. I guess I'm getting used to it.
But there's something about adding it into the mix of emotions you get with fresh grief - especially the rage - that makes it extra frustrating to hear that kind of stuff. It's not helpful, and I wish people would think about how they sound sometimes.
Grief rage is real.