Follow
Share

My father lost our mother 8 years ago and since then the house has become so dirty. The family have tried cleaning it but he gets very angry and tells us to get out, he is 89 years old and still has capacity to make decisions. He is very stubborn. He has a dog which we take out for walks around 3 to 4 times a week, she is fed well and we'll loved by him. Pads are on the floor for mishaps which we clean up. He is hoarding and he won't let us move or take any items away, the rooms are just so filthy. We have asked him so many times to live with us and he refuses, he says he likes living in his own house. We are worried if something happened to him and the paramedics were called, the state of the place, would we be liable for this?

No you would not be liable, many people on this forum are or have been just sitting and waiting for the dreaded phone call, that are parents fell, or to call and have a parent that doesn't answer the phone.

None of us want to sit and wait for the enedible to happen, but because are parents want to live and die the way they want to in there home. We are waiting for something bad to happen so we can finally get them the help they need.

Or we are waiting for a car accident, because we can't get the keys away, and doctors don't see what we see, in a 15 minutes appointment.

This is many many of are lives.

I will say before your so ready to jump the gun and move dad into your home, think about it long and hard. Once you get them into your home it is next to impossible to get them out. You are talking a probably years of 24/7 caregiving. I would read other posters on here , to see what happens.

You could call APS that may give him a scare to at least help him clean up and his hoarding.

And if there is anyway you get him to re-home the dog, that would be best too.

Best of luck
Helpful Answer (7)
Reply to Anxietynacy
Report
MiaMoor Sep 29, 2024
I would normally agree about the dog, but it may be that taking care of the dog is the only reason that the dad is taking any care of himself. Without the dog, he may get worse.
(1)
Report
Often the first outward sign to family that a LO has the beginnings of dementia is extreme "stubbornness". It's not really stubbornness but rather the disappearance of reason and logic and executive function (judgment). This is what happens with dementia.

If your Father doesn't have an assigned PoA (and it seems unlikely he will do this at this stage of the game) then you will need to stop propping him up in his home as if he is "independent". He isn't. You all are orbiting around him. If he even agreed to move into your home his behavior and needs would probably grind everyone down to a pulp in no time (so the multitude of other posts on this forum that relate to "burnout").

I agree that reporting him to APS is your (and his) best chance at getting appropriate care going forward. He will NOT be cooperative in any other solution for himself -- especially if he is hoarding, which is a mental illness and needs the oversight of a special therapist to work with.

APS will work with a judge to have him assigned a court-appointed legal guardian so that someone can legally manage his affairs and make decisions in his best interests. He will hate this but it really is a viable solution (as it was for our family). You and your siblings just need to accept it as such.
Helpful Answer (5)
Reply to Geaton777
Report

The simple answer to your post question is NO, children are not responsible for choices that their parents make about anything.
Often a traumatic loss can trigger someone to start hoarding, which it sounds like happened with your father after your mother died.
And you definitely don't want a hoarder moving in and living with you.
Unfortunately you're going to have to wait for an incident to happen that will force changes. But until then just continue to take his dog for a walk as I'm sure that's the only exercise his dog is getting, and know that the next shoe will drop before you know it.
Helpful Answer (10)
Reply to funkygrandma59
Report

Before you involve the authorities, yes, APS is the authorities, consider what will be the outcome if the person they send is a fresh from college, going to right all the wrongs and rescue the poor seniors from their plight.

They will do an emergency guardianship and take over your dad's life and finances. They will remove him from his home and quite possibly from his children's lives, the poor dog will go to the pound and that is only the beginning of what could happen.

My mom and step-dad lived in filthy, horrid squalor and APS informed me that they can live anyway they choose, as long as there is food and running water in the house. I regret calling because nothing came of it except anger and distrust, and they didn't know I called. Then I found out what could of happened and I was grateful that nothing happened.

Sometimes we have to deal with what we can and step away from the rest. If you all are willing to keep propping him up, then I really discourage you from involving the authorities. Oh by the way, not all senior stubbornness is the 1st signs of dementia, it is a scared senior fighting to NOT be taken from their home and made to live where someone else chooses.

This is a tough situation but I encourage you and your siblings to thoroughly decide what you can and can not do, what are your deal breakers and if you are ready to have your dad forcefully removed from his home and family, essentially loosing everything because he keeps house like an old man. The idea that we can keep others safe is such a day dream.

These are truly pick your battles wisely times.
Helpful Answer (11)
Reply to Isthisrealyreal
Report
jemfleming Sep 28, 2024
Great advice and insight. Sometimes the family has the best intentions to help the LO who fights and won’t listen to sound advice. Out of desperation, the family contacts APS for help and support. Instead, what you typically get is an authoritative person who, possibly with limited experience, takes over and treats you like you are irrelevant or part of the problem instead of trying to help. The family loses all control to a complete stranger who simply makes it a matter for a court to decide. I have not personally had this happen, but have worked in government myself and know how people can be treated like just another
case rather than seen for who they are. Like many things, there is a time and place for APS. Think hard before bringing authorities in and make sure that is really what you need to do.
(4)
Report
See 1 more reply
Can you get him out of the house long enough for people to get in there and clean? Each person taking a room and cleaning it. Each bring their own vacuum. Try not to touch his hoard. That is a mental thing.
Helpful Answer (3)
Reply to JoAnn29
Report

I don't understand your question about liability. His hoarding and living conditions are in no way your responsibility. That doesn't mean that he himself would not be issued papers by the county as to his home being unsafe for occupation. In that case he would be given papers as to how long he had to correct conditions or the county would condemn the home. They may report him to APS as well, who could order hospitalization and testing.

Most Hoarders do not have dementia. This is a mental condition in the DSM-5 handbook, a separate diagnosis. You may be doing as well as you are able checking on him and his dog. He is 90. I am thankful someone is checking on the dog in case he passes in this Hoard. To be honest, at this point, pulling in the state will be a nightmare. They will want someone in the family to assume responsibility. You can't do that over someone who has no dementia.

Sadly, I am not certain that you are not doing the best that can be done here given the age. Thank you for caring about the beloved animal trapped in this mess, and watching over best you are able. And no you are not legally responsible, and I think are morally doing what you can.
Helpful Answer (9)
Reply to AlvaDeer
Report

I sure hope not.

I was in a similar situation with my parents. The even had a mouse infestation.

We have the infestation under control now and my sister and I have been able to clear out 2 rooms of hoarding since my father's passing last year.

My mother still lives in the house and is refusing to accept outside help or move. Her house is still dirty but not as bad as it was a year ago.

All you can do is try and see if someone can take him out for a few hours and clean with him out of the house or hire someone and do a little bit at time.
Helpful Answer (4)
Reply to LBlondie12
Report

Mom was in home hospice for 18 months. The RN's and social workers always liked coming to Mom's house because it was clean and neat.

I got to become friends with our main RN. Our local hospice had 260 clients in in home hospice care over a 4 county area. This was a very very poor part of the US. The vast majority of their
clients were in dirty, filthy homes with hoarding. Part of this was due to the extreme poverty.

I suspect as long as there was running water, food in the home, heat, and a toilet that worked that living in a dirty, filthy home with hoarding did not prevent home hospice care in my area and no one would be called to report.
Helpful Answer (4)
Reply to brandee
Report
funkygrandma59 Sep 23, 2024
brandee, just because someone is poor is no excuse to have a filthy house. I think you either like clean(like me)or it's just not a priority, or you have the mental illness of hoarding.
But like your mother when the hospice nurses would come to my house when my late husband was under their care, there were several occasions when they would ask to use my bathroom, which of course I never minded. They would tell me that because my house was so clean they felt comfortable asking to use it as they knew they would never use the bathrooms in some of the other homes.
(4)
Report
See 3 more replies
No. Siblings are not liable.
Helpful Answer (2)
Reply to brandee
Report

Balance the need for basic hygiene, basic temperature control, tripping hazards reduction, and workers rights to get in and out of the house in a fire evacuation, with the real risk of Guardianship stepping in and loss of choice and control in many areas. Get advice and support from Dr and Police before you commence a session of tidying up with your Dad going into respite care for a fortnight.
Helpful Answer (2)
Reply to Toughpatch1
Report

My great-grandmother always said, "It's no shame to be poor, but having "poor ways" is not acceptable. Your Dad has poor ways, but there's little to be done about it as he is angry and stubborn and will oppose your every attempt. I love reading that you and sibling take care of the dog! May I add, please, please do not encourage your Dad to live with you! Your life will be so horribly and negatively impacted, if you bring Dad into your home. Living the way he is, you are doing the best you can with these "drop by" visits to his unsanitary life. This is MUCH better than having his hording and uncleanliness under YOUR roof! Your will not be blamed or charged with any offence, for your Dad's home condition. Keep it the way it is! Manage through drop by visits and thank you for focusing on the dog. Dad loves the dog and your family cares for the dog's needs and accidents. You already have the best scenario that can possibly be had with a stubborn, 89 year old hoarder. I am sure this hurts your heart, to see your father live this way. BUT: You are doing the best you can by him, and I can assure you that no Peace Officer or agency will charge you with an offence or "fine you" for his filthy home of choice. DO NOT HAVE HIM LIVE WITH YOU!
Helpful Answer (6)
Reply to fluffy1966
Report

As a social worker, my sister in law was often called out to elderly people's homes in PA. She said dirty is not a reason they could take action to remove the person. However they would come in and do a one day clean up if needed including clearing out hoarder's trash. My mom was the same way and now that she is in a care facility we went in and took everything out and today we are going back to clean at least somewhat before we sell it. My mom's habits were lifelong and not a result of her decline. I tried cleaning her house over 30 years ago and was met with hostility. You do what you can do, but it's a hard place to be in.
Helpful Answer (7)
Reply to JustAnon
Report

Good Afternoon,

I agree with others, if you take father into your home you don't want a repeat performance.

When there is no woman around, the men go right down hill unless they meet someone.

Keep checking up on him, it will come to head. Sometimes decisions are made for you.
Helpful Answer (2)
Reply to Ireland
Report

Hospice workers in poor parts of the US regularly visit clients with dirty homes and hoarder conditions. It is not cause for removal. The hospice RN shared this with me. She said there
was nothing they could do. We had a clean house and clean bedroom for Mom so she liked coming to Mom's house.
Helpful Answer (2)
Reply to brandee
Report
funkygrandma59 Sep 28, 2024
Again brandee, it's not just "poor parts of the US" that people live with dirty homes and hoarded conditions. It is in every walk of life and from every rung of the societal ladder.
I know a woman who is a millionaire and lives in an upscale neighborhood, in a beautiful home and who is a hoarder. She does have a cleaning woman come every other week to clean the areas that she can get to, but the rest stays in a hot mess. And because the hoarded areas can't be gotten to dirt accumulates.
The mental illness of hoarding does NOT discriminate.
(6)
Report
Worriedsibling2: His living conditions including the hoarding aren't your responsibility.
Helpful Answer (2)
Reply to Llamalover47
Report

Nope, you are not liable for your father’s health and his other situations. Do not take him into your home, as you are not responsible. Leave him alone as is and as said in other forums, let the chips fall where they may: some emergency from an injury or illness may happen to land him in the hospital.
Helpful Answer (2)
Reply to Patathome01
Report

No, you are not responsible, legally or morally. Most of us love our parents and want to do the right thing for them. But, we are not obligated to be their caretakers, especially when we ourselves are reaching the ages of slowing down and having to take care of our aging selves more and more. We ALL judge people and the way they have chosen to live their lives. When it becomes a danger to themselves or others, that is when we must step in. I remember as a young women going to my cousin's house, and the moment I stepped in the wave of urine odor hit me. She had three children, all of them in diapers. I remember thinking this is NOT how I would let my household get. Then when we brought our first child home, I remembered what I thought of her house, and realized how overwhelmed she must have been with three of them in diapers. We won't understand another person's way of handling the stages of their lives until we are faced with the same situation in ourselves. I know that taking care of my (very persnickety) 95-year-old mother for the past five years has taken a huge toll, not only on me, but my husband, and the relationships I had hoped to have with my children and grandchildren in our retirement. So, think very, very carefully about having that parent move in with you. We tried having my mother live with us, but it quickly developed we could not handle it at all. She had her own mind, and she was endangering herself, as well as us, with her choices on what she thought she was capable of doing. She is now in assisted living, but is very close to having to go to a nursing home. No matter what you choose, it will be expensive, financially and emotionally - even in your own home. My husband and I tried to prepare for our very old age, but no one knows what the future holds. If your dad is safe and not endangering himself, then let him live in a messy, dirty house, as long as it is not dangerous. It is so good of you to care about him and his precious dog (they are family, too). We all have standards that others may not agree with, but don't feel that you need to change his chosen way of living as long as he is okay. I wish you well, and hope that you can find peace in your lives. I think that is probably what your dad wants, too, for you and for him.
Helpful Answer (4)
Reply to asfastas1can
Report

Absolutely not. You have tried. That's all you can do.
Helpful Answer (0)
Reply to westernKentucky
Report

Ugh, sounds the direction my husband is heading. He refuses to clean up behind himself, gripes at me if I pick up behind him, puts dirty dishes in washer etc. he rarely bathes or changes out his clothes. Ugh, so frustrating
Helpful Answer (0)
Reply to FOTONUT
Report

Self-neglect can happen due to many reasons. Senses diminish with age, sometimes eyesight & loss of smell are factors. Sometimes apathy & depression. Sometimes hidden issues eg TIAs, stroke, other brain changes.

Dad's in change of his own life at the moment.

Do you & your siblings have thoughts about if / when / how you may step in? A 'line in the sand' so to speak?
Helpful Answer (0)
Reply to Beatty
Report

No. Hoarding is a mental illness. It is linked to depression, and one causes the other, so it's a vicious circle. You cannot possibly be responsible for your dad's health.

I would do whatever is possible to alert a doctor or social services to help your dad's condition. Although, at his advanced age, it may be impossible to effect any change in his hoarding or level of cleanliness now.

I know that it's difficult for you to let go, but there's only so much you can do. Stressing about something you cannot change will only affect your own health.

You can't get your dad to counselling, so I think you should do it for yourself, so that this situation doesn't overwhelm you.

Look after yourself.
Helpful Answer (3)
Reply to MiaMoor
Report
emccartt Sep 29, 2024
Wow! Great response.
(1)
Report
I agree with Isthisrealyreal,
Of course, you are not liable for the way your father chooses to live.
And, I would simply let him live as he wishes. It's not up to your standards,
but it is his way of living. I don't think it's necessary to call any authorities, unless he is in dire danger. And even then, if he dies in his home, with his beloved dog by his side, would that really be so bad? He has lived a long life, and has already lost his wife. Let him live on his own terms.
Helpful Answer (2)
Reply to CaringWifeAZ
Report

Ask a Question
Subscribe to
Our Newsletter