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I am going through the same things this month with my older brother. He is trustee of the family money and some things just do not add up. The only solution is to get an Attorney. Get one ASAP! If you look into it now you won't have any regrets... if you let it go..............there is chance you will be looking back at these days with regret........ Remember....... we don't usually regret things we do DO, we usually regret things we decide NOT to take any action on.
Think again. Is this really how you want to handle the grieving period over your dad'd death, and honor his memory -- squabbling with your brother over money that is already gone? Deciding to move on is also an action you DO.
Very good point. But what about the situation of taking care of YOURSELF Finally? Often people who lie,cheat and steal can hurt you sooo bad that "mvong on" is close to impossible before the air is cleared up, expalantions are given, apologies are shared and THEN one can "move on". In oiur family there are so many secrets and deception that bros want to hide behind............ "let's put this aside until the grieving period has passed...." That is what Dad would want us all to do."
Well............ guess what?? The ones that want to "put it aside" and "move on" are always the ones that have lied, cheated and stole in this world. It is in THEIR best interest to have you "move on" asap so that they can then use the expressions.... "it's in the past" and "just get over it" and "why can't YOU leave well enough alone?" Sorry, give a hug........but it is about time we bring to light those that need justice then and THEN forgive and "move on".... The worst of offenses, like murder, I do NOT believe in the death penalty... but once a person is caught............ they are not sorry they did the bad thing to Dad and you................. They are just sorry they GOT CAUGHT.
Depending on the amount of money involved, you can ask the POA holder to order copies of all the bank statements at your expense going back far enough so that you yourself can put together a summary ( without bothering him ) of where and why the money was spent. If he refuses to do this, you would either have to have a court compel him to do so or you would have to assert felony financial elderly abuse to the legal authorities who would then compel a production of financial statements for evaluation. If the findings are that money was used inappropriately, you can sue to recover your portion of the families estate that was squandered based upon instructions in the will for the distribution of assets. There is no pleasant way to do these things and the amounts in question must be worth the lost relationship with your brother. I am involved in a similar situation presently and am requiring all bank statements also of the POA holder and credit card statements and cell phone and regular phone bills etc.
You can request the bank account statements and other verifying documents from the POA. How to enforce your request depends on your state's laws and how much you want to spend if court proceedings are necessary.
Did the Power of Attorney document include a clause that required the Attorney-in-Fact (Agent) to provide regular accountings to your father and to other family members? This is important to remember for the future, as you review your own Power of Attorney document.
Also, problems caused by Agent's who don't act in the interests of their principal are caused by money they don't spend on services that are needed to provide proper care and companionship. You can check your own motives by keeping the focus on the needs of the person who needs protection and care.
I think the best advice on this specific question would be to consult an attorney. However. If you are in the position of still being able to plan, you may want to consider, whoever in your family is going to be taking care of an elder person's finances, instead of a POA go for a Guardianship. I am my Mom's court-appointed Guardian. Whenever I petition the court for anything, a copy goes to my sisters as "interested parties". Whenever the Court mails me anything, the Court mails a copy to the "interested parties". This includes copies of my annual accounting.
I am sorry onlygirl1 for the loss of your father, however since he has passed it would be in your best interests to let what happened about finances with your brother pass also. You will only make yourself stressed, what will be gained? If the estate goes into probate, you can request an accounting, but the money has already been spent. There is an old saying that goes, never spend money to chase bad money spent.
My sisters thought my father had hundreds of thousands of dollars. They were wrong. They thought they had big inheritances coming. LOL ! What little he had all went to his beloved wife. If you leave town for 30 years, don't come back with your hand out. I told her don't even let them in the house. Things will disappear.
Also regarding the amounts of money in question, remember that getting an attorney involved which may also bring in a forensic account to do research could easily amount to costs well beyond $20,000 and sometimes up to 40 or 50 thousand dollars. Try to do as much as you can and one way to do that is to threaten legal criminal action if the POA holder does not cooperate in providing all the relevant financial documents like statements and copies of checks etc.
I have a friend who was POA for her mother who died of Alzheimer's. She spent her mother's money on her mother's care and even put some of her own money into her mother's care. At the time of her mother's death, there was $200,000 left over which she divided evenly between herself and her younger sister as specified in her mother's will. The younger sister decided to force my friend to account for every single cent ever spent on their mother and accused her of stealing. The end result, after the attorney fees, etc., was that the modest inheritance was wiped out and my friend wound up owing an additional $15,000 to the attorney. The court found that no money had been squandered and that my friend was honest and could account for every cent spent. The younger sister also lost most of her $100,000 in this foolish pursuit. The ONLY winner was the attorneys who basically wound up with both of these women's inheritance. Today, the two sisters are no longer speaking.
Think long and hard as to if this really is worth pursuing. If the two sisters above had not gotten into this legal battle, the older sister could have used her $100,000 to put her daughter through college. Instead, she is working at a hardware store in order to pay off her debt for being an honest POA, trying to pay what she can towards her daughter's college education and her daughter is also working part time to pay for her school.
Are chasing a few dollars (which you may or may not ever after attorney's fees) more important to you, and is "being right" more important to you than having good relationships with your siblings?
I feel like a lot of folks are missing the feelings associated with the problems with money and family members. I went to a trust attorney and found out about 95% of the cases on his desk are bitter family disputes. What I am doing right now in my family is letting the hard feelings come out BEFORE our mom is dead of mentally incomepacitated. It is so much more healthy to take the time NOW then after all the feelings of anger, obligation, guilt, fear, lonliness, jealousy, sadness, and I am fairly certain there are 10 or 11 other feelings that rise to the top once this change happens within a family and there is a passing of the torch from one generation to the next. There is an easy read book by Katherine Steel. Trust Me: Every Baby Boomer's Nightmare. I have read it three times now with my elderly 90 year old mom. I feel like she and I are havong to draw the battlelines.............. it is pathetic, but it is necessary to get all the deciet, lies, stealing, etc. out on the table to make a new start moving further with mom's end of life decisions and her last 10 years or so.... Let me know if this book is helpful............no money for me....just want to know I f I am on the right track suggesting others to read it....
I live in the state of Massachusetts. My sister was the POA and I was my mother's Health Care Agent. I don't believe one sibling should be both. That gives one person total control. All my mother really had was a house. My sister had to get a value of the house when my mother died. We had a lawyer from the beginning. My sister reported to the lawyer to make sure our best interests where taken care off. I lived in my mother's home for 2 more years. I decided it was time to leave. The house was put on the market and sold within three weeks. We did put the house in a trust to protect ourselves. Before we could pass papers on the house we had to put in a new septic system and we also did one more repair. What the home was valued at the time of my mother's death and what we actually sold the house for that was our taxable rate. But, doing the septic and one other repair brought are tax liability next to nothing. Everything come out at the end. Every penny in and out of the house was documented. My sister is a CPA. Everything was explained at the end. 10k was held back in case one of us wanted to challenge it. None of us did. So the 10k was divided 4 ways to 4 siblings. My mother did a will years before she died and it was very simple. 4 children divide 4 ways. We just finished doing the income taxes on my mothers estate which cost a lot of money. Another accountant had to check my sister's accounting which was correct. Then they went far back on my mother to make sure she had paid her income taxes. The IRS will get you even in death. We have all the documentation. Everything was correct. Yes you can hire lawyer and go to court. But, it does come out at the end. Is it worth breaking up a family which you can't repair. Money sometimes is not worth it in the long run. My mother was sick for 12 years. From the time I stayed on till the estate tax where done, 15 years has pasted and all four of us our together.
"Incomepacitated" - word of the year for this forum!!
onlygirl - the POA ceased upon your dad's death. To me the ? now is who is the executor or executrix as per your father's will? And what have they done to this point? If there are assets and debts all that will come out in probate court when the will is entered and the estate probated according to the terms in the will. Probate allows for an opportunity for anyone to present a claim or a concern before the court. If you feel that there should be more money than what is provided to the court, then you can file with the court this concern. The executor or the attorney for the executor will have to do posting in the local paper under legal notices or summons part of the classifieds as to the opening of probate and who to contact on this. It really falls to you to do your homework on monitoring probate. Most courthouses have all these items on line too as probate is all open records.
If the executor has already filed the initial letters, etc. you can go on-line and for a very nominal cost download all the documents. Go over them to see what may be incorrect or omitted. Often what is omitted is the deceased tax records and that is a pretty easy & justifiable request to do and include for probate and submit to probate court to want to be included in the estate documents. That move alone will get you maybe 4 months of time as IRS tends to move glacially on those requests. You can do this on your own or pay a retainer to a probate savvy or estate attorney to do this for you. As others have said if this comes down to getting forensic expertise that means a CPA with that speciality, it will be with significant cost. Good luck.
Are there any POAs out there who have been sued by a sibling? I have only one sibling, who has not spoken to me for over seven years because he is upset that I had been named POA, and he couldn't get to mom's money. Even though it is unlikely that there will be much (if any) of mom's money left in her estate, I worry that my brother will sue me, if for no other reason than to make my life miserable. Although I try to document everything, I am never sure that it is enough. I have tax returns, bank statements, bills from the pharmacy and AL facility and receipts for things like Depends, soap, etc. I am probably missing a few receipts because my husband or my daughter occasionally pick up things for my mom, and sometimes I don't get the receipt. I have an overflowing file cabinet of stuff collected over the years. How far back do I need to keep this paperwork? What about the years when my mom was writing her own checks? She was sending money to some questionable charities. Am I responsible for that even though she had not been declared incompetent? Does the fact that I have been doing all the caregiving for these years while my brother does not even call mom mean anything to a court? Is there anything I can do now to protect myself in the future? Caregiving is stressful enough without worrying about a lawsuit lurking in the future.
If you have a friend or family that is a CPA, that is wonderful. If you don't, you can ask for an annual review (cheaper than an all out audit) from an independent third party. Ask your banker to recommend someone. Send a copy of the review to family annually.
When the horse is out of the barn…anyway, your dad was the one who made him POA. I guess you can pursue this but I am not sure what good that would do. I think in the future for anyone who can change anything now, it's a good idea to have an account set up as "trustee for_________" rather than a joint account with the parent/elderly person and the POA. Then accounting is required and there is some recourse. My husband and his brother who never planned for his retirement, as he told my husband, were joint POA. We are pretty sure he 'helped himself' but MIL died six months ago and there is just no point now in taking an 'investigation' further. Live and learn and do better with your own grown kids; have your eyes wide open and consult a lawyer about the right way to set stuff up and do it before things get too far down the line. To another's point above, so you find out. Then what? Who is going to pay for the attorney's fees, filings, you name it. Can't bleed an anemic turnip.
My mother years ago made my sister POA and executrix and I was made my mother made me her Health Care Agent. She did this before the onset of her dementia. I believe now it is never good to give one child total control. My sister was Business Manager and a CPA. The lawyer who made all of this possible was then my family's lawyer at the time of my mother's death. My sister and I had one argument. I am a RN who worked in Geriatric Care. I worked on the units for 15 years and for 17 years I worked in Research for 32 years. I knew exactly what to do for my mother. I moved into my mother's home the last 8 years of her life. My mother had dementia for 12 years. I worked during the day and my husband worked at night. So some one was always with my mother. My mother was pretty independent in the house with keeping her house routine going. We where very aware when she was at the stove. I had a work related injury in August 2008. I had 5 nerves operated on both wrists up to my elbows. I tried to work for almost 2 years. On June 30, 2010. I worked my last day I could not take the pain. I guess everything happens for a reason. My mother was also diagnosed with MDS 10 years prior. I noticed her rapidly failing the following fall. I got some in the house 3 days a week to give her a bath as she refused to have her 3 daughters help her. In January 2011 my mother took a bad fall and cracked her head open in 2 places and needed sutures and staples. She was admitted. I did not want anything invasive as my mother was comfort care only. DNR. My husband went with my mother in the ambulance. I needed to bring my car. By the time I got to the hospital. They where giving my mother a blood transfusion. Even though it was clearly noted she was comfort care only. No invasive care. She was put on the trauma unit for 5 days where again I made it quite care her advance directives
Continued her PCP and Hematologist was involved and I was told my mother's MDS had progressed and her ability to make red blood cells from her bone marrow at this point I called Hospice. They meet my mother and family. It was decided to bring my mother home to live out the rest of her life. My mother died on July 17, 2011. My mother's will was quiet clear. Four children everything 4 ways. Her will was probated and it was put in the local newspaper. Our lawyer mailed us a copy of my mother's will and paperwork. We decided to put my mother's estate into a trust. I decided to live in my mother home for 2 years. I took care of the property for the time I was living there. There was no mortgage. I paid the house insurance and taxes and all utilities, landscaping and snow removal. My sister being the CPA documented every penny in and out. She also had to have the house assessed at the time of my mothers death. When I decide to move out of the family home which had been in our family for 49 years. We had put the house on the market and it sold within 3 weeks. We had to put an updated septic system done and we did other work on the house. Our taxable rate was what the value of the house at the time of my mothers death and what we sold the house for. We where able to deduct the septic system and the other job we had done on the house. Which left are taxable rate next to nothing. We paid everything off when we sold the house. The balance to the lawyer and the realtor. The money was divided 4 ways except for 10k. My sister needed to complete the paperwork. Everything bank accounts, her monthly checks and the 2 years I lived at the house of every penny in and every penny out. With an explanation. We where lucky to have an accountant in the house and she kept good notes. We received all the paperwork. At this point we had to release my sister as POA or challenge her. We release my sister as POA. Then the 10k was divided 4 ways. Maybe at this point the lawyer looked for accounts in my mothers name. I am not sure. But, at tax time. It cost is a lot of money. We needed a tax account to re check the numbers from the time of my mothers death. They also look for other money or accounts. They went back years to make sure my mother paid her income taxes. Every think comes out at the end. No need to hire lawyer and go to court and have this break up a family. It will come out. If these steps are not followed. The IRS will find you.
Sounds like POA brother may have been the one dealing with dad. Were you involved in the caregiving? Visiting frequently, attending doctor visits, dispensing meds, cleaning up after CDIF infections, checking on NH, general day to day worry about dad's care? If so, and you feel wronged, think if the battle is worth the possible payout and associated consequence. If you were not involved in the day to day, thank your brother and accept any decisions he made, whether you believe they were good or not.
As an adult when you choose an action you choose the consequences. So, not being involved while dad was alive and not having a relationship where you could provide input to how money is spent, has a consequence. Accept it.
Sounds like there might be more going on here than financial between you and your brother. Anyway, this is what attorney's live for. I have two attorney friends and both live for probate, they love it and outright admit they'd rather bill for every hour they can milk from fighting siblings than help resolve an estate in a timely manner, so be prepared for that, it'll be long, drawn out and costly, and you will lose a brother, you might not think so, but you will. Even so to each his own. First; is your brother smart enough to have prepared for this from you? If he was then you'll be hit hard legally when you pursue this, he won't be. If he saved every check, receipt, etc... and it all went to your dad, if he can even provide a calendar of activities as well, you are screwed, you'll have a large legal bill and will be known for doing this to a brother, all of your relationships will be compromised to some degree because if you'd do this to a brother, would you sue a friend? Just saying, lots of things roll through peoples minds. Don't know if your dad had anything beyond enough to cover his expenses, but if he did any smart caregiver with POA is smart enough to roll it all into a living trust too with a will as a spill over of sorts for some personal items that might be squabbled over like dads push mower, and there's usually someone who's going to do that. If brother didn't do his paperwork properly or he did take from your dad what he was not legally able to, then what? You sue for that amount over what was needed for your dad's care or what your brother was legally entitled to, and you are legally required to split that between all siblings if the brother can provide the funds, which he may or may not be able to do, of course if you pursue this now immediately, and your dad has just recently passed, then you might have a chance of getting all those funds back before your brother spends them.
I take offense at Ismiami's response and several others to onlygirl. How do you know she was not involved or even allowed to try to help with her father's care? Many children take advantage of their parents and make it sound like they were the only ones who did anything for them just because they were the ones with POAs, when in reality - all they were concerned with was the POA and taking over the finances.
I agree that reading these posts you cannot tell 'how much' people care, are involved in their parents' taking-care-of and all of the oftentimes crazy dynamics that come with families. My husband and I would have gladly taken in his mother and she would have gotten better care in the larger, southern city we live in that has so many choices and amenities for elderly folks. But his brother, who was joint POA, held on like a vise to his 'authority' and was a bully to her. She was afraid to make him mad, would retract complaints she made to us, etc. We had to allow her 'choices' to rule the day; many things were not in her best interest in the way things went but rather than start WWIII and then have her retract we had to pretty much let things go. It was very hard on my husband and also on me, but what can you do? Yes, you can go 'get a lawyer' but from a realistic standpoint for too many reasons to list here, it would have been fruitless. The best many of us can get from these exchanges is to do better when our times come. I am positive that my brother in law has badmouthed my husband and me for living elsewhere, positioning himself to look martyr-like. My loving husband was a dutiful son who called his mother almost every night. When she did visit us we washed her and cared for her like a baby and yes, with adult dignity. We both visited her as often as possible, which for BIL was always a guilt trip about never enough. Nothing short of actually moving to her town of 15,000 was enough and we have our own grown kids, grandchildren and work. This is hard enough without being judged by strangers here who don't know others' situations, only their own. I do understand how heated and personal much of this can feel but I think we'd all do well to be as supportive as possible and realize there are several sides to every situation.
I sure can relate to your pain. So much of what you are saying is what is going on with my mom. (except on I am the one keeping our mom from them....) So much goes on month by month, week by week, day by day, and hour by hour... The problem with "them" and how they see me as Mom's caregiver and "brainwashing" mom is that they are wrong about what the TRUTH is. I suggest you and your husband stay a week at a hotel near your Mom. Go to her home each morning for breakfast lunch and dinner. Tell BIL that you will be visiting a lot during the week. Tell BIL that it is up to him if he uses the week to take a break from caregiving and go enjoy himself at his friend's house, etc., or if he wants to be tied at the waist to hear/see everything that goes on between you and your husband say/do with Mom.
Remeber that the definition of insanity is doing the same things over and over and expecting different results.
From the post..... I can hear your pain, disgust, anger, guilt, annoyance, feelings of obligation, sadness, fear, lawyer talk, accountant talk, therapist talk, etc. etc. etc.
Money is usually the root of 98% of family problems. It is sooooo true. The problem is no one wants to admit that money might be about the love/support/caring/hope/and of course RESPECT for others. I am so interested in how your story goes in the next 2 4 or 6 yers. Here is sending you prayers that hopefully you 4 can figure out something NOW since in ten years it would be great if after your elder dies.... you, your husband, and BIL can sit down for Thanksgiving dinner................ I guess I am probably asking for too much................. but maybe a higher power can help........................................GOOD LUCK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Thank you foxxmolder for your comments. You may have not seen my first post, but she passed away last summer. We did not go get a lawyer; I was answering the person who posted the question as to what to do here. We very often did actually o what you suggested as far as visiting her goes. I mostly felt bad for my husband; in a way it was hardest on him. He is a very Christian and forgiving man and we both believe she is now in a better place. We would have liked to have made her last years a bit nicer but we honored what she seemed to insist was what she wanted. BIL has to live with himself. As for sitting down with them for Thanksgiving, probably not going to happen! We live very far away from them and have six kids and 8 grandchildren. The main thing is that there is no animosity on our end and we fortunately prepared for our own retirement to whatever he helped himself to (BIL) it doesn't matter. That was my point. Let it go.
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Remember....... we don't usually regret things we do DO, we usually regret things we decide NOT to take any action on.
In oiur family there are so many secrets and deception that bros want to hide behind............ "let's put this aside until the grieving period has passed...." That is what Dad would want us all to do."
Well............ guess what??
The ones that want to "put it aside" and "move on" are always the ones that have lied, cheated and stole in this world. It is in THEIR best interest to have you "move on" asap so that they can then use the expressions.... "it's in the past" and "just get over it" and "why can't YOU leave well enough alone?"
Sorry, give a hug........but it is about time we bring to light those that need justice then and THEN forgive and "move on"....
The worst of offenses, like murder, I do NOT believe in the death penalty... but once a person is caught............ they are not sorry they did the bad thing to
Dad and you................. They are just sorry they GOT CAUGHT.
requiring all bank statements also of the POA holder and credit card statements
and cell phone and regular phone bills etc.
Did the Power of Attorney document include a clause that required the Attorney-in-Fact (Agent) to provide regular accountings to your father and to other family members? This is important to remember for the future, as you review your own Power of Attorney document.
Also, problems caused by Agent's who don't act in the interests of their principal are caused by money they don't spend on services that are needed to provide proper care and companionship. You can check your own motives by keeping the focus on the needs of the person who needs protection and care.
easily amount to costs well beyond $20,000 and sometimes up to 40 or 50 thousand dollars. Try to do as much as you can and one way to do that is to threaten legal criminal action if the POA holder does not cooperate in providing all the relevant financial documents like statements and copies of checks etc.
Think long and hard as to if this really is worth pursuing. If the two sisters above had not gotten into this legal battle, the older sister could have used her $100,000 to put her daughter through college. Instead, she is working at a hardware store in order to pay off her debt for being an honest POA, trying to pay what she can towards her daughter's college education and her daughter is also working part time to pay for her school.
Let me know if this book is helpful............no money for me....just want to know I f I am on the right track suggesting others to read it....
onlygirl - the POA ceased upon your dad's death. To me the ? now is who is the executor or executrix as per your father's will? And what have they done to this point? If there are assets and debts all that will come out in probate court when the will is entered and the estate probated according to the terms in the will. Probate allows for an opportunity for anyone to present a claim or a concern before the court. If you feel that there should be more money than what is provided to the court, then you can file with the court this concern. The executor or the attorney for the executor will have to do posting in the local paper under legal notices or summons part of the classifieds as to the opening of probate and who to contact on this. It really falls to you to do your homework on monitoring probate. Most courthouses have all these items on line too as probate is all open records.
If the executor has already filed the initial letters, etc. you can go on-line and for a very nominal cost download all the documents. Go over them to see what may be incorrect or omitted. Often what is omitted is the deceased tax records and that is a pretty easy & justifiable request to do and include for probate and submit to probate court to want to be included in the estate documents. That move alone will get you maybe 4 months of time as IRS tends to move glacially on those requests. You can do this on your own or pay a retainer to a probate savvy or estate attorney to do this for you. As others have said if this comes down to getting forensic expertise that means a CPA with that speciality, it will be with significant cost. Good luck.
With an explanation. We where lucky to have an accountant in the house and she kept good notes. We received all the paperwork. At this point we had to release my sister as POA or challenge her. We release my sister as POA. Then the 10k was divided 4 ways. Maybe at this point the lawyer looked for accounts in my mothers name. I am not sure. But, at tax time. It cost is a lot of money. We needed a tax account to re check the numbers from the time of my mothers death. They also look for other money or accounts. They went back years to make sure my mother paid her income taxes. Every think comes out at the end. No need to hire lawyer and go to court and have this break up a family. It will come out. If these steps are not followed. The IRS will find you.
As an adult when you choose an action you choose the consequences. So, not being involved while dad was alive and not having a relationship where you could provide input to how money is spent, has a consequence. Accept it.
I sure can relate to your pain. So much of what you are saying is what is going on with my mom. (except on I am the one keeping our mom from them....) So much goes on month by month, week by week, day by day, and hour by hour...
The problem with "them" and how they see me as Mom's caregiver and "brainwashing" mom is that they are wrong about what the TRUTH is. I suggest you and your husband stay a week at a hotel near your Mom. Go to her home each morning for breakfast lunch and dinner. Tell BIL that you will be visiting a lot during the week. Tell BIL that it is up to him if he uses the week to take a break from caregiving and go enjoy himself at his friend's house, etc., or if he wants to be tied at the waist to hear/see everything that goes on between you and your husband say/do with Mom.
Remeber that the definition of insanity is doing the same things over and over and expecting different results.
From the post..... I can hear your pain, disgust, anger, guilt, annoyance, feelings of obligation, sadness, fear, lawyer talk, accountant talk, therapist talk, etc. etc. etc.
Money is usually the root of 98% of family problems. It is sooooo true. The problem is no one wants to admit that money might be about the love/support/caring/hope/and of course RESPECT for others. I am so interested in how your story goes in the next 2 4 or 6 yers. Here is sending you prayers that hopefully you 4 can figure out something NOW since in ten years it would be great if after your elder dies.... you, your husband, and BIL can sit down for Thanksgiving dinner................ I guess I am probably asking for too much................. but maybe a higher power can help........................................GOOD LUCK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!