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My brother was a patent in LTC facility. He was hospitalized at the end of August, and returned back to LTC on September 4 under Hospice care. He died the afternoon of September 5. He only spent one night at the LTC facility. They are charging him for the entire month of September. I donated all his clothes, chair, and walker as they were brand new and hardly used (the previous LTC facility was damaged by a tornado and all his belongings were replaced). Can the legally charge for an entire month when he was only there overnight?

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That sounds very suspicious to me. I would contact the Oklahoma long term care ombudsman's office. I had a bad experience with the billing side of a nursing home, so I will from now on always be suspicious and get my answers from regulatory agencies and such, never from the nursing home.
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Reply to Wrenee5111
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I don't think it's right either. The nursing home care was great, the billing is where I am having problems. I paid the bill partially with my money as the bank froze my brother's bank account. Now Social Security wants their money back, but since the bill is paid, he doesn't have enough to pay back Social Security. This is a big problem. Seems like they are stealing to me.
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Reply to GRS2ndSister
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BurntCaregiver Oct 15, 2024
They are stealing. Never pay with your money. That was a mistake.

Social Security can go and get their money from the nursing home and they will. It's not your problem or your responsibility.
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Not right at all. Is there a per day charge for the facility? There should be a ratio that is calculated for a partial month residence with the money returned upon death. I would follow up with the facility one more time and then go to your local news station and report this. Our local news station has a reporter specifically for wrongful charging and scam and will help elderly with cases such as this.

I am only familiar with NY long term care but Medicaid and Self Pay patients are billed on a per day basis. This per day rate is calculated based on number of days in the month and any unused days is returned based on the relinquishment of the bed.

Sorry for your loss. This situation is so unfortunate and I am sure is compounding the grieving process.
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Reply to AMZebbC
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The Small private care Home we placed my dad in when he went on hospice did this. He died at three in the morning on January 4 and they refused to refund the entire month that we had paid. It was covered in their contract. I asked about it before signing, and they said that almost never happens. In our desperation to place him somewhere where we would be allowed to visit, because it was Covid times, I signed the contract. Legally, the facility was covered in what they did. Morally, I think it stinks.
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Reply to Oedgar23
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BurntCaregiver Oct 15, 2024
@Oedgar

You could have fought that if you wanted to and would probably have won. I understand why families don't fight because the last thing you want to deal with when a LO passes is tedious paperwork and court appearances. This is why care facilities get away with these shameful business and billing practices though.

When families just let them get away with it, they'll never clean their acts up.
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I would direct social security to the facility, since they took the money.
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Reply to Isthisrealyreal
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Its like living in an apartment, you live in it one day and you still owe the whole months rent. They held his room for him. But maybe you can make a deal with the NH that you only pay for the days up to his death.

SS, the payment he received in September was Augusts money. Its like working your paid afterwards. This should not be taken back. And SS needs to be called to resolve this. Not the first time they have taken money back in error. Since brother died in September, he is not entitled to the payment he receives in October. That will need to go back to SS if received.
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Reply to JoAnn29
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BurntCaregiver Oct 9, 2024
@JoAnn

If you signed a lease you have to honor the lease agreement, although sometimes you can buy it out or if the landlord isn't upholding their end of the lease agreement such as necessary repairs, adequate lighting, etc... then the tenant has a right to withhold rent until they meet their end of things.

If you're not renewing a lease you pay up until the day of the month you signed it. If you signed on the 1st of the month and all your stuff is out and the place is in decent condition, you don't pay for the month. You pay until the date you signed the lease. If you signed in the middle of the month then you pay two weeks rent and even if you're all moved out the landlord cannot legally even show the place until the time you paid for is up.

I lived in enough apartments to know this. I always got my security deposits back too. I will fight to the death if I'm owed money.

I would never pay for a month of anything if all I used was a day. The nursing home can take it to court and they will lose.
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No, they cannot charge for a month if he was there for only one day.
If I were you I would call your state's Ombudsman Office, talk this over with them or with a lawyer if you like, but talk to your brother's insurance. Don't pay them a cent until you do. Also, you're not personally responsible for any of your brother's bills. The nursing home is doing what nursing homes are infamous for.

The patient/family shakedown.

That's all it is. A shakedown. They will harass and threaten you with all kinds of legal consequences because they want you and your family to pay the month in cash. They aren't owed a whole month. They are owed one day.

Before you do anything communicate with your brother's insurance (Medicare, Medicaid, whatever insurance he had) ans ask them to send you itemized statements of exactly what they paid to the nursing home. It's almost certain they paid for some time. Get proof.

The nursing home tried to pull the same shakedown on me. Some of the days were paid in full by Medicare and secondary insurance because my parent had several hospital stays and still had Medicare days left. Yet they still tried to get it from us in cash too. I don't think so. The judge didn't think so either because I had to go to court over it.

Don't be afraid of these people or their shakedown tactics. Pay them nothing until you've heard from your brother's insurance.
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Reply to BurntCaregiver
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I will emphasize, this is not your bill. It is his. And if he doesn't pay it (as of course he cannot) it is very unlikely they are going to push this one. Keep all the facts in black and white in case they try to go to court against his executor to collect from his estate.
Now if they have access to his accounts, and already automatically withdrew this from them, you may be up the creek.
I would then follow Burnt's suggestion to you.
Also carefully read any contract.
Call the administration; make a claim of return of any monies taken to his estate. Do this in writing today as a notification. The executor will have to do it when funtioning to operate his estate.
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Reply to AlvaDeer
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BurntCaregiver Oct 9, 2024
@Alva

If they did withdraw the money directly from the brother's bank accounts, they may have to refund it and they will refund it. The OP may have to take it into court. If insurance overpaid, they'll get their own money back.
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((((((((((((((((((((((((((((HUGS)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

Fight it!! They should only charge for the day(s) he was there.

This being Residents' Rights Month, maybe they will have some compassion do what is right.
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Reply to cover9339
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TouchMatters Oct 13, 2024
No, whatever or who's ever rights month it is, they won't care.
And often the left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing.
If me, I would go straight to the top - the facility administrator

and ... possibly contact their Board of Directors.
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I am very sorry for your brother's loss. And, do not send any of your own money to pay the LTC facility. The 29 days of September billing should have not been charged because your brother used the LTC facility for just one day last month. Contact an ombudsman for assistance.
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Reply to Patathome01
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My mother was in a personal care home that did the same thing. She moved from there to a LTC facility around the 10th of the month. I offered to pay them the monthly fee divided by 31 days in the month times the 10 days she was there. They wanted the whole month's fee. Since we were private pay not insurance I sent them a check for the amount I decided I owed them. Never heard a word after that. I went back to the facility a week later and there was someone new in "her" room. I'm sure they charged the new person for the whole month as well.

Just as an aside... She went from the LTC to a residence hospice where there was no charge until the resident was there for three days. My mother, ever frugal died two hours before the third day was over. They never asked for anything and I have been donating to them every year since. She died in 2008.
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Reply to Dillsburglady
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It doesn't sound fair although you need to:

Ask them - first
(ask to see or hopefully you have copy) Look at the paperwork you signed.
Call / Ask to see their County / State / Federal Rules and Regulations (to operate facility)

Contact the Facility's licensing board (state regulated).
Ask them the name of the entity, contact person ... and/or look on their bulletin board to see it or ask. (I believe) they are required to post it.
And/Or google "Licensing Board for LTC facilities in Oklahoma"

Donations have nothing to do with charges for care/services.

Don't pay it until you feel you've done your research.
Put in dispute if you have paid out of pocket (if not too late).
Call / contact the Better Business Bureau and the Attorney General

Gena / Touch Matters
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Reply to TouchMatters
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GRS2ndSister: Despite the fact that he "returned" back to LTC, which implies that he was a prior patient at the facility, the bottom line is a decedent of course cannot pay.
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Reply to Llamalover47
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I would think not. The question is why would they charge him for all that time. and why do you have to pay?
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Reply to Isabelsdaughter
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It is amazing to hear about the level these blood sucking facilities will stoop to for the Almighty dollar! No - ethically, morally and, most probably, legally he ( or rather his estate) does not have to pay for services never received. He did not voluntarily abandon his room there - he died for God’s sake!!! Besides other routes suggested here, you may want to go to one of those news reporters who does consumer protection stories. Nothing like public humiliation to get their management’s attention! You certainly do not have any financial obligation.
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Reply to jemfleming
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cover9339 Oct 14, 2024
Business. It depends on what the contract says. It should cover all scenarios including death.
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This is an interesting question and I hope OP returns to tell us what they found out.
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Reply to JoAnn29
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When my father was transferred to a LTC facility he only lived a week. I was only charged for a week.
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Reply to lkdrymom
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He cannot pay. This is not your bill to pay.
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Reply to Elainera
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Never allow a facility to do automatic withdrawl from a bank account that receives your Social Security payment. When I placed Mom in LTC, I allowed the facility to become Moms payee for her SS and pension. Her SS and pension went directly to the facility. I did this because if SS clawed back a payment too early after her death, and they have done this, the NH could deal with SS trying to get it back.
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Reply to JoAnn29
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LTC I assume is an assisted living. I live in California but the rules are pretty much the same. If he was in an AL they can charge for the first 5days of the month. Now if you did not take he's belongs out on the day he passed they can charge you for each day until his personal belongings were removed. Its unfortunate as its a storage fee. They may not charge you OVER for what ever days you accounted for. So if he came back on the 4th passed on the 5th you removed his belongings say the 8th he and his money will owe for eight day of that month. You personally owe nothing.
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Reply to LoniG1
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JoAnn29 Oct 20, 2024
LTC is not an AL. Its where you go after an AL and MC are no longer able to care for you. Much different rules especially if Medicaid is involved.
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