Follow
Share

Mom has 6 children. We've all had the freedom to approach the staff with questions or concerns about mom. This past January, my sister (the POA) was told only she can communicate with the staff. POA doesn't like nor approve of new rule. She tried to get them to change that rule but they refused. What can a POA do? As of now if I visit mom and she feels warm I can not go to staff and ask them to check her temperature. If I hear her coughing, runny nose, I can't tell the staff she may need cold medicine. Our hands are tied. What can we and the POA do?

This question has been closed for answers. Ask a New Question.
I am not certain, but I think something here is missing? You say that this happened after the manager had a problem with one family member. You don't say what this problem was, but seems to me it must have gotten a bit testy. I think that rig.ht now all facilities are living in terror of the virus and of what it will mean if the virus gets into a facility. In fact, given Kirkland WA we KNOW what will happen. I think there are likely extra precautions, extra meetings, and all over difficulty. I am not sure what is going on here, but I can say that it could come to a bad turn if it is suggested that your family may be more comfortable with Mom in another facility. Do you overall believe that Mom is getting good care? That she is in loving, caring hands? I would just do as asked if that is the case. And hard as it will be for that one person allowed (I assume the POA for Health care?) you will have to call him or her and say "Sorry, sis, but I think Mom has a fever; could you call and ask them to check". Wishing you the best. This will likely blow over with time.
Helpful Answer (0)
Report

I'll suggest another thing unless someone else has already done so. If your family becomes a problem they could ask for you to find another place to bring your mom, maybe?

Maybe it's something to consider? If you rock the boat hard enough it will dump you overboard
Helpful Answer (2)
Report

Interesting psychologically. In my first very gentle post I wrote “What you see as voicing concerns - 'could you check x, I think y' - could well double as giving instructions.” No, OP can’t see how this could overlap at all. I also wrote “think hard whether this might have happened” because in my experience with complaints like this, the complainer simply cannot see that they could possibly be at fault. Interesting that the rule has changed – simplest way out for the facility? However it’s good that OP and the five brothers and sisters are now happy. It may not last, if coronavirus starts limiting visiting to places for the highest death rate – the over 80s.
Helpful Answer (1)
Report
tf2766 Mar 2020
Easy way out? I think not. Dss said they could NOT stop a family from voicing medical concerns. All we've ever voiced was "medical" concerns. We never asked will you check on this or that. We do a lot for mom there. Lots of things like showers, change her bedding, do her laundry, etc that lightens the staffs load....things that are included in mom's monthly rate, but we do them. Why? Because we know they have their hands full. And too, she's our mother and we don't mind doing for her. We never bombarded them with questions over petty stuff. Never not once told them to do something different, never gave orders. I know some families are demanding. I've seen it. But we are the type to help others, not the demanding selfish type. Just the way we were raised. I really get tired of people "assuming" we give orders or are constantly asking questions. No. We went to them over medical concerns only. The new rule came in to play because ofone in management disliking one of mom's children. Look. My situation worked out as it did because dss said no that can not be done. Doesn't mean that every state, county, facility country wide follows same guide lines. I'm just stating what happened in my situation. No. It won't work out like that for everyone. Unfortunately.
(1)
Report
tf2766
Persevering
Tenacious
Caring
Effective
Successful
Caregiver!
Helpful Answer (2)
Report
Sendhelp Mar 2020
That was a compliment.
(1)
Report
Lawyer ! Call your local county 211-- ask the elder reps who they have who is local and who you don't have to pay first. Also the local Alzheimer Association can help.
Helpful Answer (1)
Report

IMHO, I think that they must put this measure in place of going through one adult child of the patient. Certainly an exception to the rule would be, e.g. - the POA isn't present and you ARE visiting your mother, she starts choking or some other medical emergency - RUN to tell staff! Or is the POA present every day?

Edit - I see that you called DSS and all six of you got reinstated.
Helpful Answer (2)
Report

Seems the staff are being run over by your well-meaning and loving family. They need to hear a consistent message and concerns from 1 person trying to manage mom's care - not 6 different voices with 6 different opinions. If you see a problem, tell the POA - who is the only one with power to discuss and decide your mom's situation.
Helpful Answer (3)
Report
tf2766 Mar 2020
Im going to copy and paste this message to people that have replied with an answer. First of all thank you to the ones that have been kind, understand my situation and offered information. Those that "added" to my story assuming they knew the deal. Like "we give orders, request to change medications, etc. No "thank you" for you guys. Anyway. I decided to make one message and send to all. First of all, we (kids) have never given orders. The ladies on the hall that actually care for my mom are wonderful. Zero complaints. It's the management that is shady. Due to a personal dislike to a child they think they can go around making their own rules. UPDATE: Letting all know. I called dss. They contacted the facility, told them they could not deny the family their rights to address concerns they observe while visiting. The facility called me and apologized for "the misunderstanding." Lol. It was no misunderstanding. Just covering their tracks. But yes. All rights have been restored thanks to dss. All is good 🙂
(2)
Report
You may be interpreting a preference as being a "rule."

Imagine you're the staff.
Sister 1 says, "Mom is spending too much time in her room. Why don't you bring her to activities?"
Sister 2 says, "Why are they forcing Mom to go to activities, she wants to watch TV in her room."
Brother 1 says, "Mom eats nothing but pastries, cookies, and candy. Don't give her that stuff."
Sister 3 says, "Mom loves sweets. She's 90 years old, let her eat what she wants."

My guess is there is no RULE that says you can't voice your concerns, but rather they're strongly encouraging the six siblings to reach a consensus BEFORE they communicate to the staff and to do so via ONE spokesperson.

ps - this situation happens ALL the time.
Helpful Answer (5)
Report

Imagine yourself in their shoes and 6 different children approaching staff and multiply this by 100! If that were the case the level of care will suffer dealing with all of the various family members. When I was in a situation with 3 children at a SNF they informed me they would talk to one appointed family member who could also distribute any info or updates to the rest of the family so they could do their jobs!
Helpful Answer (3)
Report
gemswinner12 Mar 2020
She’s already playing the know it all; annoying to the hilt, even on this message board. Imagine her and five comrades at your place of work?! I feel sorry for that facility....
(3)
Report
Yes, you and your siblings are probably labeled as "PIA" family members. That's code for Pain in the "Behind". Caregivers try to mainly focus on the actual patient, but too much noise, confusion, sibling rivalries, and drama can overshadow quality care for the patient. I remember sisters and daughters would call at all hours to interrogate me about who else had visited, for how long, and what they said.... I finally just told them you all need to have family meetings and discuss your issues amongst yourselves; I need to take care of my patients, not play referee for one patient's family. I'm not even mentioning HIPPA concerns. I apologize in advance if this sounds harsh, yet I speak from experience. Please try to see the situation from the facility caregiver's points of view.
Helpful Answer (5)
Report
tf2766 Mar 2020
FYI. We do not call the staff with such ridiculous questions. We don't call staff at all. We are only talking about concerns we see while there. Medical "concerns." We don't bother them with such things as are you taking mom to activities or don't take mom because she doesn't want to go. Don't compare my situation to other situations. Yes I'm sure there are families out there that can be a pain with such petty stuff. Six kids....we are there a lot. So we take her to activities if she wants to go. If you work at a facility, I'm glad it's not the one my mother is at because it sounds like you think all families are the same....a pain in the behind. Shame on you.
(0)
Report
then I would call the authoritys and find new place to put mom
Helpful Answer (1)
Report
worriedinCali Mar 2020
call the authorities? Not an issue for them. Get real people! Bad advice!
(1)
Report
See 2 more replies
Yes they can stop you. Only way this might work is that all 6 children be on a call list with the facility. This happened to me with my father. Once I put my wife on their call list she was able to talk to them and my father.

i am the POA and so I was the one that had to do it. From their prospective I understand why. Otherwise they would get inundated with calls from all members of the family.
Helpful Answer (5)
Report
tf2766 Mar 2020
No they can't. I called dss. Dss got involved. Our (kids) voice/rights have been reinstated. Facility was told they could NOT deny a family member the right to voice a concern. I even got a call from the facility apologizing for "the misunderstanding." Lol. They are calling it a misunderstanding now. Covering their tracks. Thank you for your reply although it is incorrect information.
(0)
Report
See 1 more reply
With 6 siblings, there may have been too many conflicting issues being brought up. If you feel your mother needs some sort of attention, text it to sister to address with staff as soon as the need arises.
Helpful Answer (1)
Report
tf2766 Mar 2020
Im going to copy and paste this message to people that have replied with an answer. First of all thank you to the ones that have been kind, understand my situation and offered information. Those that "added" to my story assuming they knew the deal. Like "we give orders, request to change medications, etc. No "thank you" for you guys. Anyway. I decided to make one message and send to all. First of all, we (kids) have never given orders. The ladies on the hall that actually care for my mom are wonderful. Zero complaints. It's the management that is shady. Due to a personal dislike to a child they think they can go around making their own rules. UPDATE: Letting all know. I called dss. They contacted the facility, told them they could not deny the family their rights to address concerns they observe while visiting. The facility called me and apologized for "the misunderstanding." Lol. It was no misunderstanding. Just covering their tracks. But yes. All rights have been restored thanks to dss. All is good 🙂
(2)
Report
Does your mom have dementia or can she make decisions? If she can make her own decisions then I would have your mom fill out a HIPPA form listing you and her children as individuals whom she gives permission for the home to speak with and give information too. If your mom is not competent at this point to sign a HIPPA form then the home legally only has to speak with the POA.
Helpful Answer (1)
Report
tf2766 Mar 2020
Edit
Im going to copy and paste this message to people that have replied with an answer. First of all thank you to the ones that have been kind, understand my situation and offered information. Those that "added" to my story assuming they knew the deal. Like "we give orders, request to change medications, etc. No "thank you" for you guys. Anyway. I decided to make one message and send to all. First of all, we (kids) have never given orders. The ladies on the hall that actually care for my mom are wonderful. Zero complaints. It's the management that is shady. Due to a personal dislike to a child they think they can go around making their own rules. UPDATE: Letting all know. I called dss. They contacted the facility, told them they could not deny the family their rights to address concerns they observe while visiting. The facility called me and apologized for "the misunderstanding." Lol. It was no misunderstanding. Just covering their tracks. But yes. All rights have been restored thanks to dss. All is good 🙂
(0)
Report
If every resident had 5 or 6 children asking questions the staff wouldn’t be able to do their job and actually tend to the residents. It sounds like this decision was made because too many family members were asking repeat questions. Facilities today all have tight staffing with nursing staff stretched thin. I’m sure that if you observe something seriously wrong your concerns would be addressed.
Helpful Answer (2)
Report
tf2766 Mar 2020
Im going to copy and paste this message to people that have replied with an answer. First of all thank you to the ones that have been kind, understand my situation and offered information. Those that "added" to my story assuming they knew the deal. Like "we give orders, request to change medications, etc. No "thank you" for you guys. Anyway. I decided to make one message and send to all. First of all, we (kids) have never given orders. The ladies on the hall that actually care for my mom are wonderful. Zero complaints. It's the management that is shady. Due to a personal dislike to a child they think they can go around making their own rules. UPDATE: Letting all know. I called dss. They contacted the facility, told them they could not deny the family their rights to address concerns they observe while visiting. The facility called me and apologized for "the misunderstanding." Lol. It was no misunderstanding. Just covering their tracks. But yes. All rights have been restored thanks to dss. All is good 🙂
(0)
Report
With all due respect, could it be that there were too many, "complaints," and staff felt overwhelmed by all of you. Your sister with POA should have a meeting with facility manager to ask why the change.
Helpful Answer (2)
Report

I understand how they could chase their tail with several people “giving orders” so to speak, but you’re acting in your mom’s best interest. Seems silly to have to call the contact person and have them voice the request. Call your local ombudsman and see what’s possible. It’s yourMom’s and your right to contact them if you feel she’s being neglected or wronged by the facility. I always try and be as cordial as possible, even with complaints so no one gets ticked off and takes it out on my Dad. He’s in a great MC place, but caregivers are human and some are thicker skinned than others, you know.
good luck-
Helpful Answer (1)
Report

I wish I had an answer for you but this same thing happened to my family. I am one of 7 siblings and my older brother was POA. Unfortunately he is a poor communicator and didn't tell us when mom was dying. As a result, my mother died with no family members present.

At the very least I would advise people to pick an alternate POA in case the POA decides to bail.
Helpful Answer (2)
Report

Each facility has its own rules, but they should have an authorization form that your sister (PoA) can list names of people who can visit or take your mom out or to discuss medical issues with the staff. Ask for that authorization form and have your sister fill it out.
Helpful Answer (3)
Report
Judysai422 Mar 2020
Also a HIPPA form.
(2)
Report
See 2 more replies
That doesn't seem right to me. It sounds like the facility is misinterpreting the privacy act. The privacy act limits the dissemination of information in order to protect the person's privacy. I would speak to the administrator of the facility as well as the ombudsmen.
Helpful Answer (2)
Report
tf2766 Mar 2020
Im going to copy and paste this message to people that have replied with an answer. First of all thank you to the ones that have been kind, understand my situation and offered information. Those that "added" to my story assuming they knew the deal. Like "we give orders, request to change medications, etc. No "thank you" for you guys. Anyway. I decided to make one message and send to all. First of all, we (kids) have never given orders. The ladies on the hall that actually care for my mom are wonderful. Zero complaints. It's the management that is shady. Due to a personal dislike to a child they think they can go around making their own rules. UPDATE: Letting all know. I called dss. They contacted the facility, told them they could not deny the family their rights to address concerns they observe while visiting. The facility called me and apologized for "the misunderstanding." Lol. It was no misunderstanding. Just covering their tracks. But yes. All rights have been restored thanks to dss. All is good 🙂
(0)
Report
We need visitors must wash their hands keep viruses out. We can visit at there.
Helpful Answer (0)
Report

First, Brava to you and your siblings for (1) being so attentive to your mom, (2) for not being intimidated by facility management, and (3) for getting along! This process often splits families so it's great you're all hands on deck for your mom.

I can understand that these busy places don't want to have to deal with a slew of family members. But: they are dealing with FAMILIES, and should be grateful for the concern. I can't imagine why anyone would take offense at a visiting family member who brought something they were observing in real time, to the attention of the proper staff member. There are ways to smooth routines so they aren't getting too many or conflicting signals from people. And take into account that they probably aren't dealing with thirty families who have multiple members involved. You are probably one of only two or three families that is this involved. Keep it up.
Helpful Answer (3)
Report

I'm one of 7 kids. As POA for my mom, I requested facility only take instructions from me. Other sibs could address concerns but no changes could be made to her meds or routine without going through me. Keeps things simple for the staff.
Helpful Answer (6)
Report
tf2766 Mar 2020
Thank goodness my sister (poa) did not do that. We (kids) have never bothered the staff about medication changes. They can't do that. Only her doctors can. We (kids) either call the doctor or address it at a visit. All mom's kids are on the hippa at all her doctor offices.
(0)
Report
See 1 more reply
Does anyone have durable POA?If not u can get MEdical POA.Just regular POA is only financially responsible.If you have Durable POA that cover both financial n medical Power of attorney.If things are not going well with her,call the relative that has Medical POA n tell them what's going on and they can enforce whatever you have told them.All 6 of you can get MedicalPOA so they have to do whatever you want them to do.Sometimes it takes the whole family to make sure she's getting the proper care.Im sure all 6 of y'all are not there at the same time so different situations happens when ya there by yourself or whatever.I strongly suggest y'all get that MPO.I hope this helps yall out.God Bless You.
Helpful Answer (4)
Report
Judysai422 Mar 2020
A DPOA, whether for medical or financial, as they are separate documents in most states, allows the named person/s to act on behalf of the person giving authority without that person having to be incapacitated. A POA, more correctly a springing POA, is only effective after or while a person is incapacitated.
(0)
Report
See 1 more reply
Well done! Everyone needs advocates like you and your siblings.

So happy for you that the situation has been rectified.
Helpful Answer (4)
Report

Not ONE person has suggested that having six kids is a bad thing.

What *everybody* can see is that having six people giving their opinion at different times, in an uncoordinated way, is a lousy, messy, chaotic approach to communication.

Your sister cannot delegate her authority as your mother's POA to anyone else, no matter how many documents your sister signs. ONLY your mother can give that authority to anyone.

If your mother is able to create a new POA, she should - she can make one of the other five of you joint POA with your sister, stipulating that the POA should be "joint and several" - then your sister and the new POA can act individually as well as together.

If your mother is not able to create a new POA, and there is no alternate named in the original documentation, then the family had better take advice on what to do. It is not reasonable to expect your sister to manage full-on POA responsibilities alongside her demanding and important job - especially as it prevents her from communicating freely with the outside world.
Helpful Answer (9)
Report
tf2766 Mar 2020
Wrong
(2)
Report
See 1 more reply
Too many cooks spoil the broth. The five of you can channel your observations and requests and concerns through the POA.

If you're not all in regular touch with her, you can place a journal in mother's room and record your observations for the POA's information. Assuming POA sister visits often - ? - she can then pick up on any points that seem to need it. And if it's urgent, you can call her and she can treat it as urgent. But ONE point of authorised communication, please, not six different ones.

You certainly can't instruct the staff to give your mother medicine - or at least the staff certainly can't act on your instructions. Do you know what their state regulators would do to them if they allowed that? Not pretty, let me tell you.

At the same time. If a visitor visits a resident and observes that the resident seems feverish and unwell, and the visitor informs a member of staff, I would expect the member of staff to say "oh dear we'll certainly have a look at that." I can't imagine what rule could be imposed to prevent such an exchange of information. But six of you, all chipping in in a free-for-all? Chaos!

Have you all been much in the habit of asking the staff to check your mother's temperature?
Helpful Answer (4)
Report
tf2766 Mar 2020
First of all. I used the fever thing as an example. I was so sure most mature and educated adults would pick up on that. My bad. Second. Don't assume having 6 kids is a bad thing. And don't ASSUME we give instructions. We never have. But you can best believe if I walk in and my mother looks flushed and feels warm I will ask the staff to please check her temperature. Key word: Please. We have always been respectful. Monday my sister visits. Checking mom's feet because she's a bad diabetic. Finds an open wound on the bottom of her foot. She sends me a pic and I call her, tell her to break the rule and go ask the med tech if they were aware of it. The answer was no of course. Just so happens at that moment I was on the phone with DSS and after 2 conversations with DSS, we got our rights to "address" not order medical concerns. Then I got a call from the facility apologing for "the misunderstanding" lol haha there was no misunderstanding of their new rule. They knew they were breaking policy and tried to smooth it over as a misunderstanding. We (children) do her laundry, change her bedding, give showers among other things that help lighten the load of the staff. We do realize they have other residents to care for and many that have no family that comes to help. So don't always assume that 6 kids is whoa! That we give orders or instructions. All we have ever done was voice a "concern." But it has been taken care of. Thank you for you reply although it was totally out of line.
(6)
Report
See 2 more replies
I work in a Memory Care ALF. We will only speak to POAs about medical issues because otherwise, it's a three ring circus, as you can probably imagine. We have one daughter who calls here continuously. And I mean CON-TIN-UOUSLY asking for one thing after another for her mother, or asking the same questions on her behalf, etc. and it's just too much after a while. We do speak to her, of course, but we will only speak about medical issues with the resident's son who is her medical POA. In your situation, with 6 children approaching the staff with their concerns, it would be a full time job for them to keep track of everything! What if you were to tell the staff your mother has a cold and needs medicine, and then another sibling calls and says NO don't give my mother cold medicine, it's no good for her!!! See what I mean? Only one person should have the power to speak for all.

If you have a concern about your mother, call the POA, express it to her, and let HER call the ALF with the concern. If she doesn't like this new rule, then perhaps she would like to relinquish her role as POA and ask your mother to give it to you instead. Otherwise, I don't think you have any recourse with the new rules.
Helpful Answer (6)
Report
tf2766 Mar 2020
Thank you for your reply. As a matter of fact. I called DSS yesterday explaining everything. After her calling the facility, she called me back and said our right/voice has been restored. Then I got a call from the facility apologizing for "the misunderstanding." Lol. It wasn't a misunderstanding. I need to make it clear. We (kids) never gave orders or instructions. We are all on the same page as far as our mother. If we walked in and seen her flushed and she felt warm we have the right to go ask the staff to please check her temperature. Keyword: Please. We've never been disrespectful nor demanding. We do realize the have other residents to care for and some that have no family that visits nor helps. We do her laundry, change her bedding AND wash it, help with her showers, etc. We lighten the load for the staff a lot because we know their hands are full. Again. Thank you for your reply.
(2)
Report
See 1 more reply
Please try to see things from the facility 's point of view. They could get sued if they did something against the POA's instructions.

And receiving instructions from six different people, even mom's children, could be very confusing to staff. (Think if you had six supervisors at work.)

Unless it's a lifesaving emergency, have siblings communicate with your sister, who then calls the nursing staff. In an emergency, it is highly unlikely they will ignore a sibling who is in the room with mom.

This is a difficult and emotional time. I wish you peace.

As stated, another option may be changing the medical power of attorney to another sibling who is more readily available.
Helpful Answer (6)
Report
Isthisrealyreal Mar 2020
6 supervisors? Yikes! That would be like working for the government.
(2)
Report
See 1 more reply
If the POA cannot be the one family spokesperson, assign one person as the go-between that staff can communicate with.
All the others go through this one family member.
Helpful Answer (1)
Report
tf2766 Mar 2020
My sister (poa) did give them a legal document this morning handing rights to me and my other sister to handle all medical issues due to her unavailability. Also, yesterday I called DSS. We (the children) got our rights/voice back. Then I got a call from the facility apologizing for "the misunderstanding." There was no misunderstanding. Covering their tracks. But all is good now. Thank you for you reply.
(2)
Report
This question has been closed for answers. Ask a New Question.
Ask a Question
Subscribe to
Our Newsletter