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She's moving into an independent living facility and she's told she wasn't allowed to go to church till this pandemic is over. She a christian lady and never missed church. I don't see how they can do this it's against her rights.
lkdry, churches were one of the first things to be shut down, and that should tell you something, Now, however, many of them have opened back up, including several in our area.
Of course she cannot go to her church. She could pick up covid, which now sees 1,000 deaths in the last 24 hours alone, and which is peaking again, from congregating in her church. No facility in their right minds would let her return then to a group of at risk seniors. Trust me, any loving God will forgive her for not carrying Covid-19 into the midst of a group of elders. If the facility did anything else I would hold them irresponsible in an almost criminal way. Surely there are Seniors there who are believers, who can congregate together and celebrate the love of their God.
It is not "against her rights" at all. The residents, and your friend, have a right to not get sick and die because one person insisted she go to church. I'd think the same policy is in place across the country. It doesn't matter where she wants to go on Sundays, be it church or the mall or a restaurant. Anywhere where numerous people are in one place is too risky right now. Your friend may be willing to take that chance, but she can't risk other peoples' lives.
If they did let someone go to church and they transmit the virus, and your friend dies from it... would you be okay with that? Would other families be okay with that? Doubt it.
There's always religious services broadcast on TV Sunday mornings. Last I checked, God is omnipotent. You can pray anywhere, anytime. You can read your Bible whenever you want. You could even chat on the phone with a minister if need be.
As a person of faith myself, it irks me when Christians claim they're being denied rights or persecuted in America. Unless you're being used as a tasty snack for lions, you are not being persecuted.
Yes, but the Independent facility is allowed to have its own emergency rules. She can certainly leave and go to her favorite service, movie, rally. But she cannot return. These are rules made for the good of all. I have a friend in Independent living in AZ and a friend, ex partner of my bro living in ALF in Palm springs. They have SOLID rules they MUST obey. If they were to go to their church service there would be nothing to stop them; they would not be allowed to return to infect others. Doesn't have to be in a contract. We are in a pandemic. The facilities can make their own rules for their own citizens. The citizens choice is to stay and obey or leave. Easy.
Our church has social distancing implemented for seating, masks required while you are not seated and it has worked well.
However, we have live streaming for the ones that want to stay out of public places.
I think that your friend needs to decide if she really wants to move right now and what is more important to her.
I believe that following the guidelines keeps us safe and being socially isolated is killing our seniors, what's worse, slow lonely death or covid which has a death rate of half a percent according to new numbers released by WHO and CDC.
When we move into a facility they have rules that you agree to, so you can not really complain if you don't agree and move in anyway.
The problem isn't with HER getting covid if she wishes to run that risk. That's up to her. The problem is with bringing it back to an independent living facility. I happen to be with you on covid. I would happily get it at 78, tell them no heroic measures, and get the GOOD DRUGS and ushered right on out. My partner doesn't happen to feel the same. So I care for myself to protect HIM.
Yes, they can tell her that, because the safety of everyone at the facility is their responsibility. If she wants to self-quarantine all the time and never mingle with others where she lives, including all meals and activities, maybe they'd OK it, but in the end it's their house, their rules.
There will be coming soon more violations of a person's rights, as authorities are now administering pandemic vaccines to the elderly populations at nursing homes. (hearsay at this point, not knowing who to believe).
It has been interesting to me to watch churches standing up against the rules, the laws, the courts to protect the right to worship together. I personally, give up my rights for the benefit of others by not gathering at this time, and watch online. Take communion online.
Maybe her church has online services? Or we could find one for her. Even small churches have an affiliation with other larger churches who teach the same. I have enjoyed a wide variety of different churches from home online. They always mention those that are watching from home.
Still, I would think twice about making a move to any facility designed to be congregate but now by necessity is isolating to elders, but still carries a huge risk of Covid spreading. It is absurd, a very difficult circumstance.
From what I have read there is no vaccine as of yet. Our Governor, NJ, has said it will be voluntary but he hopes 70% of the population gets the vaccine. It cannot be given to those who don't want it. Me, I think all the politicians should get it first then we will see if there are any side effects. 😊
When Louisiana was a hot spot our governor shut down all church services. Churches were sensible and opted to conduct online services.
There was a large non denominational church in Baton Rouge, Louisiana that did not comply and there was a COVID breakout. It was awful. This church owns shuttle buses that are used to pick up individuals that don't have transportation. He continued this practice of picking up passengers to bring to his church.
The pastor did not want to do online services because he claimed that he had to touch people as he prayed. He insisted on continuing the practice of 'laying on of hands' and COVID cases kept rising.
The pastor was given a warning and he still refused to listen to the governor so the police were sent over to his church to enforce the governor's restrictions in our state.
Our (unbiased) national news today says that 500,000 new Covid cases were reported in the USA last week. Illinois, with just under half the population of Australia, reported 30,000 new cases last week. That’s more cases than Australia has had altogether since January. I doubt if people who catch it in Church are guaranteed automatic entry to heaven. No vaccine is ready yet, and any site that says so is deeply suspect. A few vaccines are being trialed on very brave volunteers, Deep sorrow for America and for everyone in the world facing such difficult times.
Not only do they not get an automatic entry to heaven, meanwhile they are spreading Covid to others. Not worth the risk. If her living facility is opposed to it, why make waves? That is their policy. It is different if a person lives alone and they go home to an empty house.
Sort of reminds me of the people who move next to a train track or an airport and complain.
She has the right to attend services in person if she chooses to however the facility also has the right and obligation to set rules that proactively protect their residents, hence restricted in person visitations and outings. She does not have the right to potentially infect other people or cause harm to others. This virus can be and has been deadly for many. She can attend mass by watching it on TV, that's what dh and I have been doing. If she is religious she will know that the building is not the church, the people are. God does not want his people to put themselves or others in harm's way, she can pray and worship from the facility. He doesn't judge if you went into a building for mass, he listens to prayers regardless of where you are. I know that these are hard times for many people, lack of socialization, extra precautions when you do need to get out to the store or appointment. If it's the after service socializing she misses there are always phone conversations and texting. Have her check her church's website, some are doing virtual bible studies and group meetings. Something like this may help her feel involved but still keep her and others safe. Please stress to her that she really doesn't want to contract this virus nor will she want to be the one to spread it. It affects different people in different ways, we have lost a good friend, another may need to be on oxygen for the rest of his life, going from an active, fit person who now lives his life hooked up to an O2 hose, diminishing his and his wife's quality of life. No more ski trips, running marathons, or snorkeling on vacation. Can not perform his job as an industrial electrician any longer either. Is going into a building really worth the risk to her and others?
The death total for the 1918-1920 pandemic was 25k per month.... oh wait, the U.S. is at the amount right now with close to 1k deaths per day !!! My gosh, didn't anyone learn anything from that pandemic of 100 years ago?
I am still amazed at how many people are not taking this pandemic seriously. Do they believe that the death counts are fake news or what? I saw interviews on TV where some people still believe the virus is a hoax.
What is happening this year with the virus is running parallel as to what happened with the pandemic of 1918. Some people didn't want to wear masks [back then the masks were gauze].... some people didn't want to distant themselves from others.... and there were some Mayors of big cities that still held parades which crammed in thousands of people, which spiked the virus. Sounds like history is repeating itself.... [sigh]
As history repeats itself, people still won't listen or take precautions for themselves or others. The virus has already mutated many times and is not to be taken lightly. Going to a simple trip to the grocery store means masking up, safety glasses on because of side shields don't touch anything unless you are purchasing it, car keys in a plastic bag, no purse, no cell phone, hand sanitizer waiting in the car, shoes off in the garage before entering the house. While in the store quite a few without masks and no idea that 6 feet distance does not mean 6 inches. It's frustrating when others claim it's their constitutional right not to wear a mask, or to have a large party because they can, later on finding out their party caused a major outbreak. If everyone would take precautions and preventative measures maybe this could have been contained by now with fewer deaths.
Attorneys are going to have a heyday with this for years to come. Infringement of civil rights, spreading due to noncompliance, employers not requiring any protections or requiring protections, knowingly spreading when already diagnosed, etc, etc, etc.....
I would not set foot in a church, especially here in rural, rogue America.
So, does anyone ever get the flu anymore? Common cold? Pneumonia? Of course not - it's only Covid! Not only have masks been proven and on some of the boxes it even SAYS that they are not that effective, but they cause respiratory problems from breathing in carbon dioxide, coughing in them (from the FLU), etc. Not a Hoax, but a real illness, very like H1N1 and SARS, that has been hugely inflated to terrify everyone into total compliance with any weird rule or "law" that local governments can come up with. Remember that the tests have been shown to be inaccurate pretty often, and most, if not all "Covid19" deaths were of people who were already really compromised with serious illnesses. I personally know of 7-8 elderly people in my area who got over it with little trouble; they were fairly healthy to begin with. Not being ridiculous; just saying watch carefully what's happening, especially in the UK and Australia; pretty scary, and I don't mean the sickness...
What do you think is pretty scary happening in Australia, please? I'd love to know. We have no community transmission in the Northern Territory where I am, nor now in South Australia where I have spent the last 6 months. One community transmission death in SA, resulting from a tour group from a cruise ship in March. That's it. All the new cases are people returning from overseas, while they are still in isolation. We are coping pretty well, thanks. We are more concerned about deniers where you are.
I think it’s a reasonable request from the IL facility as the resident will be exposed to many risk factors in a church congregation setting and can possibly bring that virus back to the other residents. She has to “take one for the team” so to speak. I’m surprised her church is even holding in person services. The only reason I can see for any church having in person services at the time of this pandemic is to collect donations (sorry but that’s how I feel).
The resident can watch services virtually as many churches are providing services this way.
God is everywhere. I understand those that feel like they will be committing a sin if they don’t physically attend but in reality God gives us the ability to make rational decisions - this unfortunate time is one of those when I believe God will forgive those who decide not to go in person to help assure the well being of their community.
Margaret, not talking about the virus, but about the mandatory lockdowns and mask mandates in Victoria, especially in Melbourne, that keep changing and getting tougher and tougher. I get some of this from Sky News Australia; is it all lies?
Mally, thank you for the question. Melbourne had the only 'second wave'. It was caused by outsourcing hotel quarantine to private companies whose rules and workers were inadequate. All of the detainees were overseas 'residents' who came back with the disease. The bad quarantine meant that many of them had breaches that finally involved big gatherings of 3 extended migrant families, then spread from their communities outwards. Like Singapore's wave with immigrant workers, the Victorian government had not managed to get enough information into communities with poor English (particularly to the religious leaders). Then didn't react quickly enough. Yes things did get tougher and tougher till Victoria bit the bullet on total lockdown. It took some big fines on breachers (and some huge public reactions to phone videos of dingbat deniers pulling silly stunts) until everyone got the message. We're just finishing a Royal Commission to find who was responsible for what.
Victoria's lockdown was lifted just a few days ago. They had no new cases yesterday, and the Skynews you read in the past is now out of date, thank heavens. Everyone, inside and outside Victoria, is hugely relieved. The way they finally did it is giving lessons internationally, including some brilliant contact tracing technology, and the way they got it wrong is also giving lessons about what not to do. Of course they learned from international experiences too.
Skynews probably wasn't wrong at the time, although their slant on it may have been unhelpful.
Dorothy's friend, if you are still reading here I think you find that there is a very good and justifiable reason that AL will not allow residents to attend church. And your friend is not being singled out. She is not permitted to put other residents at risk. This rule applies to every one and all over the country.
Maybe friend would prefer to be quarantined to her room the remainder of the week? Somehow I don't think so.
Independent living is not the same as assisted living. I think that is the misunderstanding that is taking place.
These are regular apartments that these people live in, no activities are even taking place at the facility, because people are coming and going at will to buy groceries, go to medical appts, etc..
Yes, Mally. Here in NYC, we are no longer gathering in synagogues/churches because even with precautions, these places are responsible for spreading.
Outdoor services and demonstrations, with masks and distancing are not.
Rallies, services and other outdoor events WITHOUT masks and distancing are demonstrably spreading.
The total numbet of dead in NYC is now approaching the total of three waves of the 1918 flu, when NYC had a total population of 5.6 million. We now have just over 8 million and have 24k dead after less than a year of infection.
I am orderering everything online as I did at the beginning and am no longer venturing out to stores.
Mally kind of used the "hoax" word. It was at that point I knew I would not get far with Mally. I have decided if people wish to go to rallies it is fine with me. In all truth, their kids and their grannies know what is coming home to them, and can make their own decisions about masking up. I have given up. At this point I wear the mask to protect ME. I hope Mally will take comfort in knowing that as difficult as even the very occlusive N95 masks are, few in medical have died of MASKS, while many have died of covid. Mally will be treated with the same excellence and loving care as anyone else entering hospital if enter Mally must. In my daughter's neck of the woods a friend decided it would be OK to go to a Seattle Sea Hawks party. 17 people. 7 with it went to now 10. 1 dead. Even our President knew early on how lethal, how easily spread, and told Bob Woodward that on a tape. Very lethal; very easily spread. Esp. to certain populations. BUT we will never convince some of this. Sam Donaldson had a wonderful saying (remember him and his eyebrows?): "There are two kinds of ignorance: simple and willful. With simple you lack information or the abililty to understand information. With willful you choose to ignore information." Straight out of my commonplace book. Anyone now not taking the precautions to mask up, social distance, hand wash, and protect selves and others are practicing willful ignorance. All the information is there. 230,000 dead. I have told my partner it is not that we are having too MANY die, it is that, given our enormous population, there are TOO FEW dying, and we cannot yet see it. No matter how many people show up ill, or having lost a family member, and now having been converted to true believers, we are not yet enough touched. Some here are. Joel certainly is. Some are. More will be. Sad we have to have it right in our face to get it. Sad we cannot learn by the heartbreaking stories we see around us.
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Surely there are Seniors there who are believers, who can congregate together and celebrate the love of their God.
I truly love your insight! Your answers always make me smile.
Is her church having in-person services? If so, can she negotiate with the facility that she will isolate until the virus is over?
If they did let someone go to church and they transmit the virus, and your friend dies from it... would you be okay with that? Would other families be okay with that? Doubt it.
There's always religious services broadcast on TV Sunday mornings. Last I checked, God is omnipotent. You can pray anywhere, anytime. You can read your Bible whenever you want. You could even chat on the phone with a minister if need be.
As a person of faith myself, it irks me when Christians claim they're being denied rights or persecuted in America. Unless you're being used as a tasty snack for lions, you are not being persecuted.
I doubt she will find an IL without similar rules.
In Michigan and Ohio, religious services are exempt from Covid restrictions, as are BLM and other protests and Trump rallies.
She should check the facilities policies and the contract she signed to see if she agreed to restrictions.
I am not saying congregating is advised, I am saying it is exempt, there is a difference.
However, we have live streaming for the ones that want to stay out of public places.
I think that your friend needs to decide if she really wants to move right now and what is more important to her.
I believe that following the guidelines keeps us safe and being socially isolated is killing our seniors, what's worse, slow lonely death or covid which has a death rate of half a percent according to new numbers released by WHO and CDC.
When we move into a facility they have rules that you agree to, so you can not really complain if you don't agree and move in anyway.
It has been interesting to me to watch churches standing up against the rules, the laws, the courts to protect the right to worship together. I personally, give up my rights for the benefit of others by not gathering at this time, and watch online. Take communion online.
Maybe her church has online services? Or we could find one for her. Even small churches have an affiliation with other larger churches who teach the same.
I have enjoyed a wide variety of different churches from home online. They always mention those that are watching from home.
Still, I would think twice about making a move to any facility designed to be congregate but now by necessity is isolating to elders, but still carries a huge risk of Covid spreading. It is absurd, a very difficult circumstance.
There was a large non denominational church in Baton Rouge, Louisiana that did not comply and there was a COVID breakout. It was awful. This church owns shuttle buses that are used to pick up individuals that don't have transportation. He continued this practice of picking up passengers to bring to his church.
The pastor did not want to do online services because he claimed that he had to touch people as he prayed. He insisted on continuing the practice of 'laying on of hands' and COVID cases kept rising.
The pastor was given a warning and he still refused to listen to the governor so the police were sent over to his church to enforce the governor's restrictions in our state.
Sort of reminds me of the people who move next to a train track or an airport and complain.
I am still amazed at how many people are not taking this pandemic seriously. Do they believe that the death counts are fake news or what? I saw interviews on TV where some people still believe the virus is a hoax.
What is happening this year with the virus is running parallel as to what happened with the pandemic of 1918. Some people didn't want to wear masks [back then the masks were gauze].... some people didn't want to distant themselves from others.... and there were some Mayors of big cities that still held parades which crammed in thousands of people, which spiked the virus. Sounds like history is repeating itself.... [sigh]
https://www.history.com/news/1918-spanish-flu-mask-wearing-resistance
I would not set foot in a church, especially here in rural, rogue America.
The resident can watch services virtually as many churches are providing services this way.
God is everywhere. I understand those that feel like they will be committing a sin if they don’t physically attend but in reality God gives us the ability to make rational decisions - this unfortunate time is one of those when I believe God will forgive those who decide not to go in person to help assure the well being of their community.
Victoria's lockdown was lifted just a few days ago. They had no new cases yesterday, and the Skynews you read in the past is now out of date, thank heavens. Everyone, inside and outside Victoria, is hugely relieved. The way they finally did it is giving lessons internationally, including some brilliant contact tracing technology, and the way they got it wrong is also giving lessons about what not to do. Of course they learned from international experiences too.
Skynews probably wasn't wrong at the time, although their slant on it may have been unhelpful.
Maybe friend would prefer to be quarantined to her room the remainder of the week? Somehow I don't think so.
These are regular apartments that these people live in, no activities are even taking place at the facility, because people are coming and going at will to buy groceries, go to medical appts, etc..
Outdoor services and demonstrations, with masks and distancing are not.
Rallies, services and other outdoor events WITHOUT masks and distancing are demonstrably spreading.
The total numbet of dead in NYC is now approaching the total of three waves of the 1918 flu, when NYC had a total population of 5.6 million. We now have just over 8 million and have 24k dead after less than a year of infection.
I am orderering everything online as I did at the beginning and am no longer venturing out to stores.
At this point I wear the mask to protect ME. I hope Mally will take comfort in knowing that as difficult as even the very occlusive N95 masks are, few in medical have died of MASKS, while many have died of covid. Mally will be treated with the same excellence and loving care as anyone else entering hospital if enter Mally must.
In my daughter's neck of the woods a friend decided it would be OK to go to a Seattle Sea Hawks party. 17 people. 7 with it went to now 10. 1 dead. Even our President knew early on how lethal, how easily spread, and told Bob Woodward that on a tape. Very lethal; very easily spread. Esp. to certain populations.
BUT we will never convince some of this. Sam Donaldson had a wonderful saying (remember him and his eyebrows?): "There are two kinds of ignorance: simple and willful. With simple you lack information or the abililty to understand information. With willful you choose to ignore information." Straight out of my commonplace book.
Anyone now not taking the precautions to mask up, social distance, hand wash, and protect selves and others are practicing willful ignorance. All the information is there. 230,000 dead. I have told my partner it is not that we are having too MANY die, it is that, given our enormous population, there are TOO FEW dying, and we cannot yet see it. No matter how many people show up ill, or having lost a family member, and now having been converted to true believers, we are not yet enough touched. Some here are. Joel certainly is. Some are. More will be. Sad we have to have it right in our face to get it. Sad we cannot learn by the heartbreaking stories we see around us.