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My mother has Alzheimer’s and COPD requiring oxygen 24/7. She refuses any sort of help. Refuses to go into assisted living or live with a family member. She doesn’t remember anything from one minute to the next. At her last pulmonologist appt….the doctor told my mother I could be arrested if she should fall or injure herself and end up in the hospital. That DCF (department of children and families) would get involved and that I could end up in jail since I know of my mothers issues. My mother and I DO NOT get along. We never have. But, I am taking her to her doctors, getting her medicine, groceries, etc. No doubt she should not be living alone anymore. But, what is a person to do? Or, does anyone know if being arrested is a reality if my mother got hurt somehow? I also have a 27 year old with autism…..taking care of him is a cake walk compared to my mother. Any advice is greatly appreciated. Oh, my mother has no money either. No savings, no house to sell to get money. Just her SS and retirement from the school district. She makes too much to qualify for Medicaid but no savings for assisted living or nursing home. I really just don’t know what to do. There is a lot of bad history between my mother and I. Mostly on her part….I could never do anything right. I’m almost at the stage of just cutting her out of my life and letting her or someone else deal with it for my own sanity, marriage and being the kind mother I need to be for my son. I have a brother in the next state, but he comes up with every excuse under the son not to come and help. I am mentally wiped out. Thanks for reading. I certainly didn’t intend to type out this much.

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The first step in this scenario is to go to another pulmonologist. It was unprofessional of him to even suggest giving legal advice, and incorrect advice at that.

Second, file a complaint and get a written record of this incident so you have it for your records.

Third, you cannot be jailed if your mother falls unless it is assault where you intentionally pushed her down. Even if someone is physically assaulting and abusing your loved one, there has to be significant evidence for this person to be brought to arrest, let alone put in jail for even one night. The incident would have to be recorded somehow as proof.

When an elderly person falls, and you call 911, a cop will show up along with the ambulence to assess the situation. The cop is there to see that it wasn't abuse, and they do have ways of knowing this. Your situation does not seem to fit the bill for abuse or neglect, based on what you have stated to this forum. Many elders are resistant to care, and your mother is no different. This does not constitute neglect. This is dementia, and poor judgement is simply par for the course.

Also, do you have Power of Attorney for your mother? If not, that is something to look into right away as you would then have a easier time getting care arrangements on her behalf. I would also contact your local Office on Aging to see if there is anything they can do to help.
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My word! The jails would be overflowing with children if we all got arrested because our parents fell!

Some would have life sentences because their parents have fallen so much!

It’s awful that this doctor said this to you. Personally, people who have dealt with this situation are the most compassionate. Once, my mom’s regular doctor was out and she had to see an associate. Mom was used to her regular doctor being extremely patient with her. The associate was not as patient and rather curt. He told her that she needed home health to regain some strength. She had been telling her regular doctor no to home health.

Well, the associate looked at me and said, “I know what you are going through. My father refused help and I had to tell him to do what was suggested or I wasn’t going to be available for any help.” Guess what his father’s previous profession was? A doctor! LOL He said that doctors don’t always make the best patients.

By the way, my mom did well in home health, which she did several times in her 90’s and rehab when she went. She worked very hard to improve. It’s tough and she was fearful but the occupational and physical therapists were terrific at their jobs.

Mom had Parkinson’s disease and it’s extremely challenging for anyone with Parkinson’s disease to have good mobility and balance. Of course, near the end of her life she lost her mobility and was bedridden for the last month of her life. Before that, she continued to slowly move with her walker.

Anyway, this associate was able to convince my mom to agree to home health! He was firm with my mom, for her own good and very compassionate to me! What a switch, because most doctors expect the children to do everything for their parents!
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ARE you POA? if so, tell the doctor the next time you take her that she can't go home because no one is there anymore to care for her. As far as the money goes, contact an Elder Attorney ASAP and they can get things set up for medicaid, etc. the money spent is well worth it. Or call office of aging and hopefully they can get you help sooner rather than later since most offices are overwhelmed also. I don't see how you could be held responsible, but if the doctor you are taking her to KNOWS that she shouldn't be alone, would also be partially responsible for not reporting and contacting someone that could help get her placed, especially if you say she doesn't remember things well. so tell that doctor you want something in writing and start your work on finding a place to put her. Tell her you need to go away for a couple days and that she will have to stay somewhere temporarily until you get back. Then do NOT go see her for about 2 or 3 weeks..........it gives you rest time, time to take care of son, and then just let her know that when you do go to see her that you are having some things taken care of at her house, like painting, etc. the white lies won't hurt and she won't know any difference. YOU have to take the power now and make the decisions for her. And if you are NOT POA.......the ask office of aging or Elder attorney how to handle things. wishing you luck.
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DEAR MJGIORDANO,
I WOULD LIKE TO ASK YOU SOME QUESTIONS.
1. MAY I ASK THE AGE OF YOUR MOTHER?
2. WHEN WAS YOUR MOTHER DIAGNOSED AND WAS IT WITH A NEUROLOGIST DOCTOR OR A PRIMARY CARE DOCTOR?
3. EVEN THOUGH YOU SAY THAT YOU AND YOUR MOTHER NEVER GOT ALONG, DID SHE AT ANYTIME INDICATE THAT SHE WANTED YOU TO BE HER DURABLE POWER OF ATTORNEY AND MAKE HEALTHCARE DECISIONS FOR HER WHEN SHE CAN'T. OR DID YOU JUST VOLUNTEER TO PITCH IN TO HELP HER BECAUSE YOU FELT IT WAS THE RIGHT THING TO DO. THINK CAREFULLY ABOUT YOUR RESPONSE BECAUSE THERE WILL BE A LOT OF PEOPLE READING THESE QUESTIONS AND THE RESPONSES.
4. YOUR BROTHER IS LIVING IN THE NEXT STATE OVER BECAUSE HE OBVIOUSLY WANTED TO GET AWAY FROM THE DRAMA AND THE RESPONSIBILITY. SO, OF COURSE YOU CAN'T COUNT ON HIM. SO, LEAVE HIM OUT OF THE EQUATION.
5. I AM GOING TO GO OUT ON A LIMB HERE AND SPEAK AS KINDLY AS I CAN BUT I HAVE TO ALSO SPEAK AS BOLDLY AND TRUTHFUL AS I CAN.
YOU INDICATE THAT YOU ARE MARRIED AND YOU HAVE A 27 YO AUTISTIC SON. I AM AN 81 YO RETIRED NURSE WHO HAS OUTLIVED ALL 3 OF HER CHILDREN BY 2 PREVIOUS EX-HUSBANDS. WHEN YOU SAID THOSE MARRIAGE VOWS, DID YOU REALLY MEAN WHAT THEY SAID?
I AM TALKING ABOUT THE PART THAT SAYS, "FORSAKING ALL OTHERS".
THAT IS BIBLICAL. OUR HEAVENLY FATHER, AKA GOD OUR CREATOR, IS THE ONE WHO WROTE THE BOOK, THE HOLY BIBLE AND HE WROTE THE INSTRUCTIONS ABOUT HOW MAN IS TO LEAVE HIS PARENTS HOME AND GO IN SEARCH OF HIS MATE OR HIS HELPMATE. WHEN HE TAKES A WIFE, SHE IS TO BE HIS HELPMATE. SO, GOD COMES FIRST BECAUSE HE IS OUR CREATOR, THE THE SPOUSE COMES 2ND, THE CHILDREN COMES 3RD, THE BOTH SETS OF PARENTS ARE 4TH, THEN THE SIBLINGS IN 5TH, THEN THE EXTENDED FAMILY MEMBERS ARE 6TH, AND THE CHURCH IS 7TH ON THIS CHART. THE JOB OR EMPLOYMENT IS IN THE 10TH POSITION OF THIS CHART. THIS CHART WAS AROUND IN THE 1990'S AND UP TO ABOUT THE DECADE OF 2000. THE WAY THE WORLD IS NOW, THAT CHART IS PROBABLY NOT AROUND MUCH ANYMORE. BUT
SPOUSE AND CHILDREN HAVE TO COME 2ND, AFTER GOD. YOUR MOTHER MADE HER BED, AND NOW SHE IS IN DIRE NEED. IF SHE IS NOT A CHRISTIAN AND SHE IS STILL IN UNFORGIVENESS AND ANGER, SHE IS EITHER WANTING TO DIE IN ANYWAY THAT SHE CAN OR SHE IS USING YOU TO HELP HER AND MAKE YOU FEEL GUILTY IF YOU WALK AWAY IN FAVOR OF YOUR OWN FAMILY.
6. MY LAST POINT...THAT DOCTOR WHO TOLD YOUR MOTHER THAT YOU COULD GO TO JAIL IF SHE SHOULD FALL AND SERIOUSLY HURT HERSELF WAS WAYYY OUT OF LINE. HE IS TRYING TO MANIPULATE YOUR MOTHER INTO COMPLYING TO BE MORE GRATEFUL FOR YOUR HELP, AND I WILL SUGGEST THAT YOU NEED TO INITIATE AN INVESTIGATION AND REPORT IT TO THE LOCAL AMERICAN MEDICAL ASSOCIATION.
BUT DID YOU HEAR HIM SAY THAT OR DID YOUR MOTHER TELL YOU THAT HE SAID THAT TO HER IN THE. HOPE OF SCARING YOU AWAY.
THINK ABOUT THIS. IF SHE IS STILL TRYING TO MANIPULATE YOU AGAIN, YOU HAVE EVERY RIGHT TO WALK AWAY. CALL THE LOCAL SENIOR CENTER AND SEE IF THEY HAVE ANY VOLUNTEERS WHO WOULD COME FOR A COUPLE OF HOURS 2 OR 3 TIMES A WEEK TO SHOP FOR GROCERIES, WASH DISHES, COOK A MEAL, RUN THE VACUUM CLEANER, ETC. IF YOU HAVE ACCESS TO HER CHECKING ACCOUNT, MAKE A GROCERY LIST AND HAVE THEM DO THE SHOPPING FOR HER. THAT GIVES YOU THE TIME YOU NEED TO BE WITH YOUR HUSBAND AND YOUR SON.
GOOD LUCK.
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disgustedtoo Jul 2021
Please turn off the caps lock. It makes it difficult to read what you are trying to say.

Item #1 - OP's profile indicates her mother is 75yo.

Item #4 - "YOUR BROTHER IS LIVING IN THE NEXT STATE OVER BECAUSE HE OBVIOUSLY WANTED TO GET AWAY FROM THE DRAMA AND THE RESPONSIBILITY." I highly doubt that he moved to the next state over to get out of any "drama" or "responsibility." The next state isn't even that far away! I moved to the next state over, yet spent 6 years assisting and/or managing everything for my mother. Generally we live where our employment is. Yes, he makes excuses for getting out of helping, but that's more likely because this mother isn't exactly a candidate for mother of the year. I have 2 brothers - never even got the "excuses" from them...

Item #5 - although we were brought up with a religion, I'm not religious. However, that old chestnut about "FORSAKING ALL OTHERS" when you marry... Exactly how does that mesh with the Ten Commandments? Hmmm, that one doesn't even show up in the top 10 list, HOWEVER, commandment number 4 is: "Honor thy father and mother." I am in no way implying that OP or anyone else should attempt or continue to try to care for a parent who is abusive, nasty, non-compliant, etc, just pointing out the discrepancy. This "chart" you mention, the one that "WAS AROUND IN THE 1990'S" - I have never heard of it and it sounds more like some doctrine various churches/religions would preach, to try to make good responsible citizens/parishioners. Prioritizing by chart rather than by love, care and/or need seems a bit regimented.

To you and others:
Given that the doctor made his statement TO the mother, in front of OP, it sounds more like an inept doctor who is trying to help. He is a pulmonologist, not a psychiatrist. Too many doctors do NOT have experience with OR training about dementia, which makes life difficult all around. OP has enough to deal with without having to make waves over a statement like that. IF he'd said it to OP, with malice intended, then yes, take him to task. However, chasing this down a rabbit hole is in no way helping OP with her situation.

OP needs to take her mother to a specialist, even if that means going through the primary care doc first, OR if mom refuses, contact the appropriate services that will investigate, assess and deal with this woman, including assuming guardianship. That said, even if the specialist confirms the dementia, there's still the issues remaining:

OP says no money for facility or hired help (which is more expensive)
OP says mom's income exceeds Medicaid limit (legal help needed)
OP's state Medicaid only covers NHs - she would need to qualify
OP says mom refuses to move - NO ONE can legally force another person to move, not even when dementia is involved.
It doesn't appear there are any POAs, so OP's hands are tied for making financial decisions, managing finances, assisting with medical issues, etc. Even if there was a POA, that isn't enough to "force" a move - it would require guardianship, and it isn't likely OP wants to take that on.

OP never had a good relationship with her mother, but dementia can make even the most wonderful mother a bear to deal with.
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Imho, to even think of that pulmonologist's statement of being arrested is ludicrous! If that were the case, I would have been placed behind bars 15 to 18 years prior to my having to move in with my late mother from OUT OF STATE. I had so many friends and relatives saying 'why are you letting your mother live alone?' My response to these individuals was along the lines of "Don't you think that I've tried to amend the situation? She said no, no dice, can't make me, staying in my own home, etc. etc. etc." I was not that naive. For your mother's SPECIALIST to even verbalize that statement of his/her's is preposterous. You must advocate for your mother by reporting his comment to the proper authorities STAT; do not wait until the comment is forgotten/no longer on your mind.
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No, you are not responsible for your mother's safety, care, or well-being unless you have conservatorship/guardianship over her that has been awarded to you by the court.
Did you literally hear the pulmonologist doctor tell your mother that you could be arrested and face criminal charges if she falls or injures herself and ends up in the hospital?
Or are you hearing from her and not the doctor? Because no doctor is going make a veiled threat like that to a family member of one of their patients. They know better and will not risk getting sued. If one actually said this to you, I would most strongly suggest you make a complaint to the Medical Licensing Board in your state against him.
You yourself could petition the probate court in the town your mother lives in and fill out a request petitioning the court to appoint a conservator/guardian over her. If no family member is willing to do it then she will become a ward of the state and they will be responsible for her care and safety.
If you believe she is in immediate danger of injury then bring her to the ER and tell them you need what is called a 'Social Admit'.
They will send a social worker to speak with you.
You tell them that she lives alone and is at risk and that you are unable and unwilling to be her caregiver. They will admit her to the hospital until they find an available care facility to move her to.
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Llamalover47 Jun 2021
BurntCaregiver: OP states that she was present when the pulmonologist verbalized the offending remark.
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You might want to take a proactive approach and reach out to APS first. And/or contact an elder law attorney for guidance. Your plate is overflowing. Your mother appears to need someone to be her guardian, and you are doing so much for her...The doctor sounds stupid if not clueless and another reason to add to why I hate MD's list. Try to find a certified elder law attorney who works on a flat rate for things, like a consult
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BurntCaregiver Jun 2021
gdaughter,

I don't believe that any doctor would be ridiculous enough to make a veiled threat like that to a patient's family member. She should complain to the state's Medical Licensing Board about him.
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To lakin1013 re APS: I was threatened with APS and it scared the heck out of me. I was an unpaid, volunteer caregiver who was just trying to help out in a desperate situation. However, the lady's needs FAR exceeded what I was capable of doing long term and I somehow ended up in charge - even though I did not have POA. (Lady had 2 sons - both basically useless). I was killing myself just trying to help when one of the "professionals" involved blindsided me with a threat to call APS and report me. She was coming at it from the standpoint that I was neglecting the person, so it was clearly that she was reporting ME and not just making record of the situation and trying to get us some help. Trust me, I was already well aware that the situation was unsustainable, but no one would help me! I pleaded with her for solutions, but she told me to shape up or she would report me. There was no neglect - just a set of problems that were much larger than I could handle. I even had a needs assessment done (Dept of Aging, I think) and that woman seemed to have an agenda against nursing homes and told elder that "no one can force you into a nursing home" and then she left. Where's all the help I was hoping to get??

So, I had the Dept of Aging telling me it's no problem for elder to live alone & maybe we can get some meals delivered or something and promising elder there would be no nursing home... ?????? I then had another entity threatening me with an APS report for neglect.

Yes, both of these things happened within the same short time frame. How could both be true at the same time where one entity says she's fine and one entity is threatening to have me investigated? Not sure, but that's how it happened.

I can vouch for the fact that it's highly unnerving to be threatened with an investigation of any kind. Even if I were declared "innocent" at the end, the investigation itself would have crippled me and I was already so damaged just from the caregiving I provided. Plus, who will care for elder while I'm being looked into? If I had enough people to help me, there would be no question about the care elder was getting.

As it turned out, elder's life alert called 911 for her after an unwitnessed fall. Long story short, I refused to bring her home. Her POA just rubber-stamped anything I said. The whole process was shockingly revealing as to how dysfunctional our elder care system is. It's scary that a person who's doing all the work can then so easily get blamed for the whole thing - based on one person's word.
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mstrbill Jun 2021
Thank you for sharing Mystershopper, and you're right, parts of our eldercare system ARE highly dysfunctional. I had a similar experience where "professonals" did nothing to help or advise but were quick to mention APS, and I understand completely how you feel, especially when you know you are doing everything you can and are getting no help from anyone. This is why I continue to try to help others here and usually advise extricating yourself from these situations as quickly as possible before it gets too deep. Unfortunately, since there often no other solutions, this sometimes means an "ER dump" may be in order.
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If your mom's income is over the limit for Medicaid, then she would be self-pay at a NH. She may or may not have enough money for AL - but probably can't manage on her own well enough to live at AL. Those patients have to be able to manage on their own with very little facility help.

Maybe the dr was trying to scare her in to thinking about you getting in trouble and that would facilitate her making the move. Obviously, that didn't work. I would call the doctor and ask for his help in pushing her a little more. Maybe he would tell her flat out she can no longer live alone - he is required to report to the state that her abilities no longer support solo living. You mention the option of her living w/family member, yet you say you can't handle it and brother won't - so who did you have in mind for her to live with? You need a plan when you approach the doctor. As in - I found this NH that she can afford w/her income. We have this relative that says she can live w/them. Call around to some facilities and talk to social worker about her income to see where she could live.

Other than that, I would suggest sending her to ER at the first episode where something goes wrong and talk with staff at that point. Tell them she needs to go to rehab or NH because she is no longer safe in her home and she has no other options. -Some folks call it an ER dump, but often it's the only way to move on to facility care. You refuse to take her home from hospital and case managers at hospital assist in getting her out to a safer place.
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disgustedtoo Jun 2021
"Maybe he would tell her flat out she can no longer live alone..."

This only works on rare occasions. I don't think it will work in this instance.

While making arrangements for MC, I needed to change docs for 2 reasons:
1) the move would be too far from the previous doc
2) despite promise of a letter needed for mom's federal pension to appoint me as representative, 9 months of phone calls and portal postings, plus supplying the required documents (requirements, POA, etc) both before and after seeing the doc resulted in nothing.

So, we brought her to see the place and get her into doc office. She got a little testy, partly for being there, partly for them trying a headset to assist in hearing. When this doc said "It isn't safe for you to live alone.", mom got nasty and demanded we leave NOW!

Generally I should think nothing a doc says will work when dementia is at work. A different doctor (treating Mac Deg) wrote on scrap paper "It isn't safe for you to drive." when we were trying to take the car away. She didn't say anything to him, but dismissed the note, several times (I made a copy of it.) None would get involved in the whole license debacle! We just took the car anyway - she kept her license, still valid for several years.
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Comment re: Adult Protective Services

We were put into their files by my mother. She was in the hospital for some procedure and proceeded to tell the nurses and doctors that she was all alone, nobody cared for her, she felt bad ...and so on.

Next thing we know, we get a call from Adult Protective Services telling us we are now on 'the list' and should expect visits, some scheduled and some surprise. At the time my mom was on her sympathy tour, she already lived full time with one of her kids and saw the other one regularly. She regularly went shopping, spent hours at the mall, and pretty much did whatever she wanted by forcing one of us to take her. I was amazed that 90yo with alzheimers could self-report and automatically become an official victim.

Things all ended very badly but I did want to share our experience with Adult Protective Services. Plus there is the very crummy feeling that you have been reported to the state for being a bad caregivers when it is not true.
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my2cents Jun 2021
You have to remember that some 90 year old dementia patients can sound quite convincing at times. APS has a responsibility to investigate, but usually after a family gives the details, the investigation is closed.
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Since you are a regular part of your mother's life and know about her condition and qualify as next of kin, her doctor is correct is saying you may be held liable for her sustaining injuries. I told my BIL as much when he left his mom with Alzheimer's in Hawaii without daily supervision.

So the next step is how to minimize your liability and provide mom with safe care:

1 - See a lawyer that specializes in family law, or even better would be one that specializes in elder law, where you live. Allow the lawyer to draw up legal documents for your mom: will, power of attorney for medical (name you as her medical representative), power of attorney for financial (name you again as her representative), and probably "end-of-life document". The last one covers topics such as do not resuscitate orders, giving or withholding fluids, medications, food if she is in a vegetative state.

2 - Once you have those documents, take mom to see her doctor for evaluation of mental competency. Since your mom probably has some mental health issues as well as dementia, do not be surprised if her usual doctor makes referrals to a neurologist and/or a geriatric psychiatrist. It would probably be worth it to repeat this type of exam annually until mom is deemed mentally incompetent.

3 - If she is deemed mentally competent, keep a copy of those doctor's notes in a safe place in your home. Those are your alibi if mom hurts herself and somebody wants to come after you.

4 - If mom is deemed mentally incompetent, keep copy of those doctor's notes in a safe place in your home. Talk to local department on aging or social services at local hospital to get 24/7/365 help for your mom. She should not be left alone - ever - and there are many ways of accomplishing this: home health aides, assisted living, full time residential facility (nursing home).
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rovana Jul 2021
So far, so good. But what if mom refuses to go into care? You do not want guardianship or the expense of it, so what do you do next to force her into care? The thing is: how do yo go about getting the authority to force the situation without going into hock to lawyers for guardianship, which you do not want in any case? Any ideas on nuts and bolts steps to take?
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Find a new doctor. Report the current one to the appropriate state agency.
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Did the dr say you can go to jail or did your mother make up story? You did nothing wrong, so I’m inclined to believe that your mother made it up. If you can’t properly care for her, then look around for a facility. An elder law Atty can help with the Medicaid application. Hugs 🤗
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Mjgiordano Jun 2021
Thank you. I was at the appointment and in the room with my mother when the doctor told her this.
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It gets me so aggravated when I hear of a doctor saying such things to a daughter or son who's trying SO hard to do their best for a stubborn parent who refuses to do ONE single thing to stay safe! That pulmonologist should be reported for his inappropriate comment, in my opinion. If he'd have said such a thing to me I'd have had a FIT right there on the spot and let him have it! You were taking your mother to an appointment, for petesake, and here he is telling your mother you'll get arrested if she were to fall & be hospitalized? What a horrible thing to say.

If I were you, I'd go get a free consult with an Elder Care attorney and get all your ducks lined up now. Before a crisis hits, and a crisis WILL hit b/c your mother is stubborn as an ox and has dementia which will only worsen with time. Your brother is of no help at all (aka useless) and you have enough on your hands as it is caring for a child with special needs. Let the EC atty tell you what to do/not do, and how to go about it all. I went to see one back in 2014 after my father fell & broke his hip and that meeting was priceless. The atty advised me about getting dad VA benefits and all sorts of things about Medicaid down the road, etc.

It blows my mind how exhausting these women are and how wiped out WE become as a result of their shenanigans. My mother is 94+ and lives in Memory Care AL the past 2 years, and regular AL before that (since 2014). We have a difficult relationship (to put it mildly) and she wears me out after ONE phone call. The head games she plays, even with moderately advanced dementia, are horrible, and I spent 20 minutes on the phone with the ED this morning about her latest crisis du jour. I feel like I need a nap just from that. Sigh.

Wishing you the best of luck and some level of PEACE with all of this. Stay in touch with this group b/c it's a great source of support from lots of people who 'get it.' Sending you a hug and a prayer today, my friend.
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mstrbill Jun 2021
agree 100%. The Doctor was completely inappropriate, even if his intentions were good.
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The Dr may have made the remark to make mom more compliant into finding a better environment to live in. IF your mother were living with you, AND you the environment you provided for her were unsafe, the MAYBE APS might be able to hold you responsible. My cousin's daughter and SIL had dtr's grandfather living with them. He refused to eat and was losing weight - someone called APS on them - It was found that dtr & SIL were not abusing or starving GF and case was dropped. My theory was GF was in end of life (EOF) and just no longer hungry. GF died the night before he was to go into nursing home.

My father wasn't a fall risk - HE FELL - a lot. He fell in IL; he fell in AL, he fell in Rehab (2Xs within 24 hours); he fell in SN. By the time he went to SN he was falling at least once a week. No charges against anybody.

If her living situation is unsafe, call APS and have them do a wellness check - unless you can call the Area Council on Aging/or Social Services to meet with you mom in her home to do a needs assessment.

It sounds as if your mom has no assets and if she were to go into SN/NH she should be able to get Medicaid. Find Social Services in Mom's area and see if they can guide you an medicaid eligibility for NH/SN placement.

Yes it is very emotional draining. Take good self of yourself while dealing with your mom.
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OP's state, per profile, does allow Miller trusts (for now - who knows what the future will bring?

See the following for more general information and a full list of states (last update listed as January 2021):

https://www.medicaidplanningassistance.org/miller-trusts/

This is for general info only - OP doesn't have any authority (that I'm aware of) to process this and it isn't likely her mother will cooperate. This is best reported to APS (even better if her doctor would report her as a vulnerable adult - as I noted in another comment, it sounds like the doctor was trying to coerce her mother into accepting help from OP, and knows full well that she shouldn't be alone. If that is the case, HE should be reporting her to APS.)
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I also don't think you need to worry about jail. Certainly if something untoward happened and mother couldn't explain, they might look to you for answers, but you don't live with her or she with you, and it seems the doctor already knows she refuses your/any help.

"...the doctor told my mother I could be arrested if she should fall or injure herself and end up in the hospital."

Playing another side of the coin... Perhaps he was trying to get HER to comply? You say he told HER, not you. This sounds more like a concerned doc who might be trying to help you, but it doesn't sound like it's working.

If you have POA, resign, in writing. If she is truly someone in need, the doctor should be alerting proper authorities to get her help. APS would be a possible source for help if you and doctor can report her as a vulnerable adult. IF they choose to go check on her and she refuses to let them in, they may not be able to do anything. However, if a medical professional reports her, they should do more.
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BurntCaregiver Jun 2021
disgustedtoo,

That's not a concerned doctor trying to help the caregiver out by making threats against them to the patient. This is a doctor who should have a complaint made against him to the Medical Licensing Board for inappropriate conduct.
How disgusting to make a veiled threat like that.
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We as a group throw out the words AL and MC a lot. I try to say, if you can afford it, but not always. Both MC and AL are private pay. Its been about 5 years but when I checked out prices for both it was $5000 a month for the AL side and $7000 a month for the MC side. Even with the sale of my Moms house I would never have made the 2 years of self pay my State requires before Medicaid would pay.

My brothers MIL was able to live in an independent living. Her SS and pension paid for her apartment. At the time she moved in it was $2000 or $2500 a month. Meals included, transportation and activities. But, at the time, could not afford AL because it was at least double.

Only those that plan ahead and are able to put money aside can afford ALs and memory care. Some people live from pay to pay. When your a widow your monthly income drops drastically upon a spouses death. Mine will drop about 1/3 of what we bring in as a couple. OP has said her Mom only has her monthly income. Not too many peoples monthly income can cover an AL. So OPs only option is a Nursing home. Medicaid rarely covers ALs and MC.
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mstrbill Jun 2021
This is all correct, but what happens to the elderly who need memory care, cannot afford it, and have no family to help? They likely end up in the hospital, and a State social worker takes over and ensures the safety of the elder.
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Does anyone have POA?

There is something called a Miller Trust. May be called something else in your State. The Medicaid cap in my State is a little more than $2300. If my monthly income is $2500 I am over the cap by $200. That $200 will go into the trust and when Mom passes the money in the trust reverts back to Medicaid. You need a lawyer well versed in Medicaid to set this up.

ER dumps. My daughter, RN, does not recommend this and has worked in two states. She says that Hospitals aren't under the same rules as Rehab/nursing homes. They do not have to discharge safely. So check your State laws.

If Mom is hospitalized and Rehab is suggested, send her. While she is there have her evaluated for 24/7 care. If found she needs it, tell the SW after Rehab Mom needs to be placed in a NH. Where I live they are in the same building. That you cannot care for her because you have a challenged child. If no POA, tell the SW that too. Tell her Mom refuses any help and you do not have the ability to force it. Yes, you can request that the state take over her care. Things will get done much faster if the state takes over.

No, you won't be arrested and a Dr. should never have said this. You may just have to let the chips fall. Eventually, something will land her in the hospital.
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You say mom is living in Independent Living. I am surprised with a diagnosis of dementia that they have not suggested a transfer to Memory Care.
Along with all the other suggestions talk to an Elder Care Attorney, or you could talk to the Social Worker and go about getting a Court Appointed Guardian. This way you are not responsible. the draw back is that you will have no say in if or where she gets transferred, her medical decisions. The court will notify relatives and if no one steps up to become her Guardian then the Court will appoint one.
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Mjgiordano Jun 2021
She lives totally on her own in an apartment. Not in any assisted living. She refuses to go into any facility. She cannot get out of her apartment to shop, get her mail or take her garbage out because it’s so hot here in Florida, that she can’t breathe. She has COPD. She can’t get to doctors, pick up her meds. I would say right now she is basically homebound.
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I feel for you!

So no one has POA for her? When you say, " She refuses any sort of help. Refuses to go into assisted living or live with a family member." I hope you haven't offered YOUR home!

That pulmonologist should be ashamed of himself! I found that when a child accompanied the elder to an appointment, that as long as the MD knew there was a child somewhere in the picture, that they figured out that child should take care of things. It was the subtle implication.

At one appt. with my mother, I told the MD about her anxiety and obsessiveness, and said weren't there meds for that? The MD replied that she didn't like to put her older patients on those meds, and said that my mother needs someone every day to contact her to ask what she wants. ?! (No) thanks, Doc! (The MD was from Nepal, and in Nepal people take in their elders.)

There is so much expectation from society that the elder's family will take care of them.
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Thank you all for your replies, insight and advice. Very much appreciated. You’ve put my mind at ease…as much as it can in this situation. This forum has been very helpful in making feel not so alone in this.
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BurntCaregiver Jun 2021
Mjgiordano,

Being homebound is one thing, but if she has Alzheimer's and is alone that cannot continue.
She has to be in a care facility unless there can be a live-in caregiver for her or she moves in with other people.
I have yet to meet the senior with dementia or without that will go willingly into a care facility. For her own safety, the choice cannot be hers to make.
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Did the doctor tell her this in your presence or are you getting this comment second hand?

Without knowing the context, the best interpretation I can put on it is that the doctor is trying to influence her to accept residential care rather than put her daughter at risk.

With no assets to speak of, she should be able to qualify for Medicaid. Her SS, pension, and any other income will go towards her care with a small personal needs allowance remaining available to her.
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JoAnn29 Jun 2021
Not if her combined SS and pension are over the cap. In my State its a little more than $2300. Anything over that amt disqualifies you for Medicaid.
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Who told you the Dr. said that to your mother? It certainly is not the case so someone is lying. I can't imagine a Dr. would say such a thing. If the Dr. really had concerns, he should have contacted APS. That is what he is obligated to do. What you can do yourself is contact APS and report a vulnerable adult. You are in no way obligated to care for her if you can't or don't want to. Let the social worker know you can only do so much and not anymore than that. The State will help.
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Mjgiordano Jun 2021
Yes, her pulmonologist said that to her during her appointment. I was sitting there with her.
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No, I do not believe you can be put in jail. Are you POA? If so, resign the position.
EVEN if you know that ANY ADULT is not safe (alcoholism, dementia, etc) you are not responsible to make them safe. The doctor is lying and should be reported for his lies.
If you feel your Mother is unsafe then what you need to do is call Adult Protective Services in your area and report her as a "senior at risk". Tell them you are the daughter, that your mother will not allow you to intervene and that there is nothing you can do for her, and that you request a wellness check. Tell them that you do not believe your Mom is competent, believe she is a danger to herself and possibly others, but cannot and will not be handling the situation. Tell them that if your Mother requires guardianship you are not going to do it because you are neither "mentally, physically or emotionally able to do it". Request guardianship by the state. Know that at that point your Mom, is adjudged as incompetent, will be appointed a fiduciary in the court system; that person will have her evaluated and placed if necessary or arrange with home support if they believe that appropriate. They will arrange where placed. You will have ZERO to say about anything at all, which I assume is your wish (and which I most heartily agree with).
I wish you luck. Your parents are responsible for you until you are of age. You are not responsible for them or their actions at any age.
This doctor should be ashamed of himself. Tell him I, as a nurse, said so.
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Mjgiordano Jun 2021
Thank you so much. This is what I what I had been looking into before I took her to her doctor appointment. I’m not sure if her doctor said this to scare her a bit. But, she also didn’t pull me aside at the end of the appointment to let me know that was indeed what she was doing. It was the end of last week so there was no one I could call to find out this information, so it scared me a bit as well.
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Others here in the past have suggested an "ER dump." You call an ambulance, have her taken to the ER, and tell them she has no safe place to return to. You refuse to take her no matter how much they offer to help you work it out, and you leave.

Your mother isn't competent to make the decision whether to go to a facility or not, but if you don't have power of attorney or a conservatorship, you can't force her either. You'll have to turn her over to the county, and they'll find a place for her.

Tell your brother you're done, and the ER dump is your next step. If he doesn't want to deal with her, then take her to the hospital.
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disgustedtoo Jun 2021
FYI to all:

POA doesn't give us the "power" to make that decision either (facility or other move.) Too often others will say get POA to facilitate the move, but this is NOT what POAs are for/about.

POAs give us legal ability to manage certain issues like finances, medical treatment/access to medical info, signing legal documents, etc. if/when the time comes that it is needed (some will specify what criteria must be met to become active.)

When my mother refused to allow the aides in (less that 2 months at 1hr/day weekdays only), we needed to move her. She REFUSED to consider moving anywhere, esp not AL. The EC atty told me we CAN'T force her to move and suggested guardianship. I doubt she would have fully qualified for guardianship, as she wasn't that far down the dementia path, but far enough that it wasn't safe for her to remain alone. It was irrelevant anyway, as the MC place selected would not accept a committal. Thankfully a big fib worked.

Just trying to clarify for anyone out there who is in this kind of bind - a POA isn't likely going to help you. The courts/laws consider that we all have rights and choices to make and that we can't be "forced" to do what we are refusing to do, dementia or not. Even staff at mom's MC told me they are not allowed to force any resident to do anything they refuse. You just have to get adept at working around the refusal, coax them into it, get them to think it's their idea, or use a fib that will work.
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Mjgiordano, no you cannot be arrested if your Mom should fall and get injured. If that was the case, then everyone here would be in jail right now.

Also, think of it this way, how many parents are put in jail when their child falls?

I remember numerous times I was with my Dad in the ER due to a fall. Not once was I ever quizzed about my part in his fall. My Mom [late 90's] was in the hospital twice for her falls, even one time where she spent her final few months in a nursing home.

You mentioned your Mom is 75 years old, that is so young.

Call your local Agency on Aging and ask for some advice. Maybe your State might have "waivers" that can used along with your Mom's retirement so she could be placed in a memory care facility. At this stage of her condition, it isn't her choice anymore since she is unable to make a clear choice. You need to do what is best for her, and what is best for your family. Hope everything works out.
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Mjgiordano Jun 2021
Thank you.
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