What are caregiver rights when dealing with elderly parent with borderline personality disorder?

I can't believe it.. I feel like I'm reading my OWN story.. my mother is also (undiagnosed) BPD and has abused me verbally & emotionally for the better part of my adult life... now she's in a SNF, I am her ONLY caregiver on the outside and yet I am constantly berated by her.. so sick of it.. I do EVERYTHING for her & get nothing but grief. I wish they'd take her phone away from her.. in that place! take care of yourself~! and take it easy ~

Is there any way you could get her evaluated for a psychiatric facility?

Here's something hope people will take as funny.

A clinical social worker saw an earlier discharged patient return to the psych ward after just gotten out. The social worker remind the person that they had just put together a good day, bad day plan, but obviously had not applied it. The next thing out of her mouth was __________ these exercises for a good day and a bad day are not intellectual orgies for you to only think about, these, dear are to live by.

"intellectual orgies" that is a good down to earth phrase that describes well what "intellectualization" is :) ha, ha, ha, :)

Not my wife but her twin sister tries reason. I think her high education makes it easy to hide behind "Intellectualization"

It is not the same as being reasonable or using reason well.

"It is a defense mechanism where reasoning is used to block confrontation with an unconscious conflict and its associated emotional stress."

She knows the material in her head and tell you what it says, plus agree that is what needs to be done. That's intellectualizing! She may have some problems with some of her mother's personality disorder fleas that need removal or she has her narcissism of her own. I can't tell or maybe I don't want to.

Your mom may one day need to go to a nursing home that is adequate for a mentally ill person with a personality disorder.

Vent all you want, but protect yourself as well. Don't let a drowning person pull you under with them.

Cmagnum,
Thanks for more info. It struck me when you said your wife always tries reason. I too try reason and often am blindsided by mom's rage which comes from nowhere 0 to 100 in less than 60 seconds. After reading your post, I know that I am lucky. I left home to marry at 17 years old and Mom moved 10 hours away for 26 years. I have had time to heal and separate from the madness. I believe perhaps this is why after so many years I find myself Mom's POA after a broken hip at 83 years old. Geography is awesome. I just moved Mom 2 hours away from me. Albeit, it is not far enough, but it has given me some breathing room. I am an only child and there is no one I know who would DARE take her on, so I am stuck. After her last insane outburst, I refused to call her for 3 weeks. I finally checked on her last night. True to BPD, she picked up where she was last normal. Acted as though nothing out of the ordinary had taken place. Mom already flushed her last episode of throwing the Administrator of her Assisted Living Home's cell phone up against the wall. In her mind, it is over for her, therefore it should be for everyone else concerned. The destruction she has left in her wake is phenomenal. I realize that my frustration comes not from the knowing, but the over-developed sense of responsibility that I have always had. Knowing that there is no one for her if I totally walk away. I know her days on this earth are limited and I don't want her to me miserable. In a sense, I try to rationalize that because she is ill, she does not know better. But, dear God, it is hard to remember when she is in full blown insanity! Thanks for allowing me to vent. Nooge

One writer who has done interesting writing that appears to include BPD is M Scott Peck. His first book, The Road Less Traveled came out 1978 and describes neurotics and what he calls "character disorders" which are very difficult to treat because the patient doesn't admit there's anything wrong with them, it's all other people and other circumstances, and they tend to make other people miserable.

I had not seen the NEA BPD before. Thanks for sharing it.

Easy? I'll ask my therapist next week. We have treatment means now that help people to get into recovery but not cured. I would not describe it as easy. I know a person who had to go through DBT twice because they intellectualized things instead of dealing with emotions.

"Intellectualization is a defense mechanism where reasoning is used to block confrontation with an unconscious conflict and its associated emotional stress."

People who are very well educated do this all too easily.

Here is something from BPD Central which I think is the oldest online web site on this topic. One of its pages describes three subcategories of people with BPD

People with the same BPD diagnosis can act quite differently. Researchers have been trying to categorize them for decades. One "real world,” subjective way is to divide them into three groups:

Lower-Functioning/Conventional

Higher-Functioning/Invisible

Combination (a mixture of both styles)

No category is "better” than the other. Each category has four dimensions: coping techniques, co-occurring mental health issues, functioning, and impact on family members.

The possible Co-occurring Disorders include.

Substance Abuse and BPD (This true of many with a mental illness. Some self-treat themselves that way.)

Eating Disorders and BPD

Narcissistic Personality Disorder and BPD

Bipolar Disorder and BPD

This is really not a comprehensive list for I've seen more on other sites. These are probably the more frequent ones.

Each of these are described on the BPD Central site under the Borderline Disorder Tab.

Sad thing is that personality disorders can't be cured. We can only treat the symptoms and some are easier to deal with than others if the anger/rage stuff and suicide/self-harm stuff gets under control.

Sorry that my post was so long. I did think about dividing my long essay into parts. I'll do that next time I get that long. Thanks for reading it.

I spent a while last night on the bpd website. After watching some videos, I felt a lot of compassion with the people with bpd. After seeing some of the people and learning more, I don't think my mother has the full-fledged disorder. She just has many of the traits. They don't really bother her. They just make me crazy and make it so I can't trust things she promises.

cmag, I usually don't read long posts, but I read all of yours. Much of what you wrote is on the bpd website. I did appreciate the bpd website because it let me see things from the other side. And what really stuck out was the people at NEA BPD said that it was easily treated, so that people could be helped. I had always heard just the opposite. It seems like a low-dose antidepressant, a mild sedative, and DBT are the things used. I saw a short session of DBT on a separate video and have to admit I would hate that type of talking, boring room, face to face. I think we ought to have therapy out in the wild somewhere, maybe riding horses or canoeing.

Cmagnum, thank you for taking the extra time and effort to post the above. No edits necessary.

I really should proof read for their are problem with word choice, bad sentence structure and poor grammar. I can write better than this. I wish we could edit or delet after we right like you can on facebook.

"Why women need to do this to their daughters, I don't know? Jealousy? Or maybe just dislike? I think it is mainly an ego saving measure for themselves."

Basically women with BPD do this to their daughters because they have BPD and live a life of "I hate you, don't leave me" They live with an extremely sensitive fear of abandonment. It is so strong that they will sabotage a relationship before that person has a chance to abandon them.

We once thought that rape or a certain type of family with a strong narcissistic mom and a weak dad created someone with BPD. Some moms threat their daughters just like their moms treated them and the chain needs to be broken. What is basically commend with people with BPD is a sense of never being validated.

Many with BPD view their children young and adult as an extension of themselves. Thus, they get jealous and dislike their daughter or son who seeks to create their own identity. Why? They feel abandon and fear it will be ultimate. Sometimes it is out of a need to survive.

From what I've seen and read, borderlines tend to have a very low self image which they project perfection from because they handle seeing their own imperfection.

These projections are often masks that seek to appear what they perceive that the other person want them to be. These masks only last so long. However, these masks make them very seductive.

They use their seductiveness to manipulate and control with money, possessions, various promises or anything else they perceive is an area that the adult child may be vulnerable to be treated such. It could be called the positive side of their hoovering because it feels good at first, but always ends painfully.

While they may sometimes praise you to your face in trying to hoover you back in or in deeper, they will talk to others behind your the worst daughter or son that any mother has ever had.

I don't have any idea about it being under diagnosed but that would not surprise me. I've heard that most of your males with BPD are in prison and women who have are the most frequent visitors to hospital psych wards when they become a danger to themselves and are around those who can dial 911 for them.

I do know that those with BPD have a track record of not sticking with one therapist very long at all or quitting all together. The individual therapy and the group therapy in Dialectical Behavioral Therapy, also called DBT, involve hard work that some do, but I'm afraid that more do not.

No one deserves to be treated the way that the young and adult children or someone with a personality treats them.

My SIL keeps believing her mom's promises and other seductive statements. I don't and after my wife worked very hard in therapy to get her freedom, she doesn't believe those deceptive lies either. Her therapist told her years ago to keep a certain geographical distance from her mom and to never be involved in the direct care of her mom in old age.

Her identical twin sister went to a therapist for a while who outlined some boundaries for her and offered her support. She's quit therapy, calls us to complain as if we can rescue her, says she's ready to quit being POA which gets our hopes up about her maybe living by boundaries, but then she chokes at the end under the burden of needing to honor her mother.

I think there is more and is the desire to see mom change into the mom she never was. Her husband is hurting but she can't see that.

Often, running away geographically, obtaining several degrees and being very successful in one's career does not quiet the voice of the borderline mom even after death. This is why adult children of people with such personality disorders need therapy so that their parent is not ruling them from the grave. Another reason for getting therapy is that it is almost impossible to live with a BPD parent and not pick up some BPD fleas which are small traits of BPD but not the real disorder.

I've read books about this where the emotional territory of someone with BPD is called the land of Oz and reality is called Kansas. Very seldom do we visit my wife's mother. We can each feel the Oz around us when in her presence and limit our time which is followed by going back to the hotel or visiting her sister and her husband.

What breaks my heart about my SIL is that 14 years ago when she was fighting for her life and coming by our house on her way to cancer treatments at the hospital, I took the time to teach her about BPD, pointing things our from various books that read just like her life which I often loaned her to read. She got a lot of insight and saw how her mother was trying to destroy her marriage back then. I'm somewhat amazed that her married has survived given how enmeshed she is with her mom. Many adult children of a mom with a personality disorder loose their marriage. The spouse gets tired of getting beat up, they can't fix anything and the relationship dies down to being just roommates if that much in the very end. For those unfortunate, abused souls, the intimacy of marriage dies completely.

I've read in the book, Understanding the Borderline Mother, that they've common physical illnesses that adult children of a BPD parent often have. Trauma has been shown to impact the brain. I is not surprising that the result of growing up, if you can call it growing up, with a BPD parent causes the adult child to have a diagnosis of anxiety or depression mainly.

Another diagnosis is a codependent personality which arises from an enmeshed relationship with the BPD parent that they create in grooming their child for the future so that can control them and hoover them in using Fear, Obligation and Guilt which the literature on BPD and even one web site calls the F.O.G. Those who are strong in the F.O.G. almost seem as powerful as Darth Vader being strong in the power of the Dark Side.

Some are avoidant of intimate relationships because of the abuse.

I've concluded that there are four types of enmeshed relationships which an adult child of someone who has a parent with a personality disorder. I've discussed these with my wife who has a PhD in Social Psychology. She likes my categories and reminded me that some of these can overlap in one person. I know that is true personally for she had to fight through being groomed to be her mom's parent to take care of her and as her mom's partner as an emotional substitute for her father. My mom made me her emotional substitute for not having a man in her life and things stayed that way after marrying an alcoholic man like her dad because they never had that great of a relationship.

Here are my 4 types of enmeshed adult child/ BPD as well as narcissistic parent relationships.

1. The eternal child who has been groomed by a parent to always respond like they are still the little girl or little boy. Technically that is called infantalism. I have a relative who is still in bondage by this in her early 60's and somehow her marriage has lasted, but not well. She's been to therapy, but quit. She at times wants someone else to fight her war for her, but she want fight. I've seen adults who literally change into a child personality in the face of their BPD parent. It's that powerful!

2. The hurting child. They seek to compensate for something that was absent from their childhood. They very often will endure abuse that not one else would in order to possibly see the parent become the loving, non-abusive parent that the never were. Sad to say, but they never will despite all presumptive hope that they will be the exception The hurting child sticks it out because of the codependent, enmeshed relationship. Everything, and I mean everything that is part of their life and their personal well being is sacrificed at some point.


3. The parent/child. The overly responsible parent/child who is groomed emotionally to feel responsible for the parent almost as if there were their parent. That's called parentification.


4. The partner child. This is called covert incest. In my opinion this is the absolute deepest and by far the hardest to get out of.

It rightly is labeled as covert incest which some call emotional incest. This can happen with either the same sex or opposite sex parent. This can really mess up a person in the future just like overt incest can. They share some of the same after effects from what I've read.

Sometimes in this covert incest their is a complicit parent who sees what is going on but is powerless to do anything. My wife's dad was that way. He even told his twin daughters when they were young that he saw what they were going through, but could do nothing about it. I know it sounds harsh to say he was complicit or enabling her by doing nothing, but he was.

The partner child is when a parent makes a child their emotional partner either because the spouse is gone because of divorce or death.

Some do this with a child because they are not getting such emotional support from their spouse and it is easier to do this than deal with the marriage problems.

Very often in this relationship the parent will share things with the child that should never be said. I have a very close relative that this happened to. Their same sex parent told them all about their sex like with their other parent. I'm surprised they got their own life and got married, but I'm glad they did.

All can be gotten out of with effort and the help of a therapist. But like those above they have to hit a point of desperation that something needs to change like wanting their life back, but are not always sure where to begin.

There is a book about the partner child. Silently Seduced: When Parents Make Their Children Partners by Adams.

As I pointed out in the thread on Emotional Blackmail, the only one you can change is yourself. As their adult children, we must remind ourselves until it really sinks in, that we did not make them that way, we can't control them and we can't fix them. We can stop being their emotional blackmail dance partner.

When we stop dancing with them, we can anticipate a fiery reaction. Sometimes, you wounder if this stuff does not come from somewhere like hell. That's when it is very important to have a therapist who can give you tips and encourage you to move forward with a take no prisoners outlook that like that victories Naval Admiral said, says dam the torpedoes that will be sent against your labor to get free. You have to keep before you that the painful labor that you are experiencing is worth the joy of a new life, your own new life on the other side.

We've seen people on this site get free and we've seen those who have not get free. We seek to love people where they are in their journey. Someone who has never experienced this kind of abuse as a child does not understand how difficult it is an adult to get free.

People with a personality disorder cannot be reasoned with. My SIL continues to think it will work with her BPD mom, but it does not. One thing that is very true of BPD thinking is that it is extremely impulsive, can break into an irrational rage from nowhere and then become the most wonderful sweetie in the world who does not remember just raging at you and cannot understand why you are upset. It is incredible how syrupy sweet they suddenly can be after treating you like worst than the devil in their irrational rage.

Fortunately, there are high functioning borderlines who are not as sever as what I've described but they are still very dysfunctional and abusive. They still need serious help.

Going directly to the person who has offended you and confronting them personally, maybe by private message would be one way to express one's anger in a healthy way. Sometimes that may not be possible, for whatever reason.
That is understandable if one is used to getting their feelings hurt. People on this entire forum are very supportive, kind towards other caregivers, bend over backwards to find reasons to support everyone else's efforts. It would be almost impossible to start out as a mean person and also to help others as a caregiver.
Then, everyone has bad days now and then. My own therapist taught me to lighten up, and said things like: "Life is too serious to be taken seriously."

Ashlynne I'm so sorry you went through so much with your mom. And I'm so sorry you lost Codybear too. I hope you can find peace and happiness now - you deserve it. Hugs...and more hugs...

Oh... and how well they can deal with anger.

sendme, the problem is that we can't go to the doctor for the person to be diagnosed. And they aren't going to go, so there is no way to be diagnosed.

I do have to add that I said it may not be wise to be a caregiver to people with the disorder because old wounds may reopen. No generalization was intended. I'm sorry if it was taken that way. It really depends on how tough someone is and how vulnerable they are to being hurt by the changeable behavior.

I forgot to add that the child has to have lived with the parent for a while and consider the house their legal home.

partsmom, there are cases where it is totally okay to transfer ownership of the home to a child who has been caregiving for a while. The transfer can be made free of taxes and look-back penalty. It is something that I would not do without consulting a lawyer. I would want to make sure all the t's were crossed and i's dotted so it didn't come back on us.

In my personal case, my mother could legally transfer title of her house to me without penalty if she wanted to. She does not want to, because it is important to her that this is her house. Also, her friend lawyer said that I could put her out on the street if she does it. He's not an elder lawyer, so doesn't know about things like life estates. But... my mother doesn't want to do it, so maybe it will still be left to me in the will. (I know she could change her mind between now and then, though, so nothing is guaranteed. Nor does it matter much if anything is left in the will.)

The fact that a relative comes after you physically to hurt you may cause you to run, or give pause about one's ability to caregive that person. However, it should not become an over-generalization that someone with parents who are BPD 'maybe should not be caregivers'. I say, know your limitations. And once again, repeating: Get an accurate diagnosis, the best treatment and medication.
The majority of caregivers have to call in help or place a person who becomes physically violent, that doesn't make them unwise as caregivers.
Jessebelle, thank you for your post, I was wanting to ponder the same thing: "what diagnosis do the adult children have after experiencing the wrath of BPD and NPD or even a parent who has sociopathic personalities? Something that I always advocate for is that you can only change yourself.

I just found a good site about bpd with many resources. It is borderlinepersonalitydisorder on the web. I am going back to it this afternoon. Other people dealing with something that looks and quacks a bit like bpd may want to look at it, too.

I was thinking about something I did a few months ago. After dealing with my feelings, I started to wonder if maybe I had bpd, instead of Mom having something like it. I took one of the quizzes and found I was very low on the scale of bpd. I also found that I was high on the avoidant scale. I wonder if children of BPD or narcissistic parents tend to be avoidant. Big ole huge boundaries. All these thoughts are interesting. I don't know if they are useful, but I like to ponder these things about how things got the way they are.

I do want to say that I feel the pain of the people writing on this thread. Children of BPD or NPD parents can have some deep childhood wounds. It may be wise for them not to be caregivers. Even when the wounds are healed, there are the reminders of how it used to be. No one needs to live with the anger and the chance that the healed wounds will reopen.

The first thing that struck me is that if Mom were to sign over the house that would cause several problems: there would be tax liabilities--both possible gift tax and in the long run, capital gains when sold. In addition, if Mom ever needs medicaid, the gift would be interpreted as a ploy to hide an asset. And she would probably be capable of accusing the daughter of fraud and coercion and who knows what else. Not a can of worms you need!

SSister, "most people who have parents with BPD do not discuss it".
I know that I don't want to, and the only way I have ever been able to survive is to 'run' away from family and live my own life, always wary of the personality disordered people who continue to be a consternation to my spirit even after death. When others are encountered who have the same behaviors, well, it is not only painful, there is a pause, and an "Oh, I've entered the land of oz" ( to borrow from cmagnum's reference) and how do I help that person, before reality kicks in and again, I'm running to literally save my life.

Most people who have parents or a parent with a BPD, do not discuss it. It is often too painful on so many levels. My parent has more than a PD, she has displayed sociopathic tendencies. I have left my job and home, moved across the country to assist her and to a lessor extent my dad. As they too are reasonably comfortable, I too was promised a house and 10 acres of land.
Although I knew better, my heart told me to give them another chance. Everything was wonderful for about three weeks and then all the old behaviors returned. One sibling against another, telling individuals stories which were either untrue or exaggerated to the point of lunacy. Crying, apologizing, promising and eventually, not speaking were the familiar pattern. Although unpleasant, after she requested various siblings to leave her house, they did.
I maintained a separate house, due to past behavior.
Oftentimes it is not right that you may be treated a certain way, however, that does not remove the right of your parent or parents to assert their authority over their home and their possessions.

I honestly believe those promises and possessions are often used as a means of control.

Someone wrote, "Where does it say anywhere that you can get the title for her home just by living there" Thinking that's what would happen is an acceptable belief because HER MOTHER OFFERED IT TO THEM. Do you all walk around not believing anything your family members tell you? NO. You who have NEVER lived with a mentally ill person have no right to judge. My mother has lived with us 6 different times. Has played me and siblings against each other and has never cared if we were hurt in the process. I look at her as the boy who cried wolf and never again will I believe any "offer" she presents to me. And to the latest who said yes her mom has a right to ask you to leave and the right to take away a gift - IMO - I read that as stating the obvious with disdain for this girl. None of you know what the low down is here. Lots of people love to support the elder because they are ill and frail. They haven't experienced the dark side of how some elderly can truly be. You are so blessed to not have a parent like this. So, her mom has the right to kick them out and deny the "gift" she offered. Even though she wrote "in order to get us to come, she offered the title." YES she has the right to rescind. But, her mom needs to do the right thing and have consideration for everything they gave up to be there AT HER REQUEST.

cmag, you are so right. From my experience, people with borderline traits don't think they need any help. The fault is with the people around them. I do think that even within themselves, they believe that to be true. I doubt that many people with BPD ever see a therapist or psychiatrist, so it is probably under-diagnosed.

A few messages back I used bipolar when I meant borderline. The two are twisted in my head -- not so much because of the letters as the changeability of the people.

Your mother has the right to ask you and your family to leave. She may or may not have BPD, however that does not deprive her of the right to say who can and cannot stay in her home.

Although she may have said she would give you title to her home, that is considered a gift and a gift can be ungiven.

Nothing harsh about what I wrote about a mother with borderline personality disorder and how one deals with it plus the resources that are available.

I have a MIL with it and other family members. The dynamics are all the same. I do wish that bipolar disorder and borderline personality disorder did not share the same initials, BPD.

I feel more sorry for the people still walking on eggshells around someone with that personality disorder. They can make some changes in their life. The person with disorder can't or want. Some high functioning people with borderline personality disorder can be helped with meds and intense therapy which is more hard work than many want to do.

Ashlynne, I didn't know your mother died. I know you had a long, hard trek with her. I am sorry.

It is hurtful what your mother was telling people. Mine does the same thing to me, but she does it to my face. She tells me that she took me in when I had no place to go and that she is taking care of me. Neither is true. She has a great need to belittle me. I wouldn't be surprised if she has really convinced herself that his is true, since it might be too damaging to her ego to accept the truth. Why women need to do this to their daughters, I don't know? Jealousy? Or maybe just dislike? I think it is mainly an ego saving measure for themselves.

Oh and I later discovered she was telling everyone I'd lost my job and she "saved" me ... meh

When my narc mother manipulated me to quit my career, sell my home and move to care for her 200km away I made the mistake of selling my city condo instead of renting it off. I had nowhere to go back to, most of my furniture had had to be ditched and all I had left was my old dog Codybear. And so began almost four years of pure h*ll.

When my dog died her attitude was "Oh well". I had nothing left and seriously contemplated suicide as the only way to get away from her. She went into a NH three years ago and, purely out of duty, I made sure her bills were paid and she had all she needed and then some.

She passed away a week ago. I'm the only family and she had no friends. I'm finally free and can shut the door on a lifetime of misery.

Maggie Marshall you most likely did not grow up with this type of mother and know the damage and manipulations done your entire life, that was a nasty response, from a person who has no idea of the shoes we walk in and the damage done to the child of such a mother....