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Dying at home is what they say. Sometimes they have no idea what that entails, which is full-time caregiving by someone else.
Then they approach the pearly gates, retreat and go in the hospital. Then they go home. Approach pearly gates, fall down and go into the hospital. Then they go home. And so on, like a cheesy board game with no prize. Dying at home is, therefore, not even going to guarantee that they really do die at home.
You might have a conversation with dad about this end result of not really dying at home. But he probably won't pay attention. It would be interesting to know what HE thinks will happen. Like maybe he thinks he'll be lying there in his clean bed all bathed and neat and happily alone, switching channels on the TV with the remote, and his heart stops beating with no pain or agony, and then he proceeds to Heaven and collects $200. Not likely.
More likely is having an attack of something, vomiting all over himself, trying to get up and falling on the floor where he stays and his bowels and bladder empty automatically as happens with death. Later you walk in to check on him and find him dead and lying in his own body fluids.
If you tell him realistically what will happen and that he should spare you the awful consequences, maybe he'll care enough about you to give up on his foolish idea and hire some caregivers. Then again, maybe not.
Thanks for your reply. You've basically summed the whole thing up pretty accurately. I am very much on board with the cynicism with which you keep it real! ;)
Who will "frown upon you" for allowing your father to do as he wishes?
It's his right to self-determination that is in play here. He's competent. If he is able to call a lawyer, self-discharhe and get cabs, he is competent to call a home health care company.
His wants do not dictate your actions any more than your wanting him in a place where he can get professional care dictates his. Step back and let him manage by himself.
That sounds quite romantic :) My Dad is the type of captain who wants to go down with his ship and wants to take his crew with him! If only he would go it alone.
TiredK, the point is that they aren't *your* options. They're your father's. When you find that the choices and decisions he makes are frustrating or risky or silly, keep reminding yourself of that.
Thanks for your reply. I know he wants to die at home which I can understand. So do I just not help him, walk away and let him kill himself with self neglect? It's very hard to leave someone in that state (even if they are a very difficult and unpleasant character) knowing they are frightened and alone. On the one hand I'm told I shouldn't put him before myself but undoubtedly I would be frowned upon for leaving him alone in his current state (elder abuse?) It's so hard.
Thanks for your reply. We have done this (9 times in as many months). He always self-discharges from hospital and gets a cab home. He can't walk now so that will be harder! I spoke with the discharge co-ordinator yesterday . She chatted with him and told me he said he doesn't want to go home and wants to live in a nursing home (I told her he's lying). I found him a nursing home place and he got angry, called his lawyer and got him to come straight to hospital to 'bust hm out'! And so it goes on..
TiredK12: You cannot nor should not continue to help a man who is so hateful and mean spirited to you, albeit your own father, lest he drive you crazy. Let him know that you are willing to help him only when he becomes a reasonable person.
So sorry you are going through this but if he is currently in the hospital, here is your exit door. Hospitals must make a "safe discharge". Inform the social worker at the hospital that he lives alone (send her/him some photos of the hoarder's nest if you have them) neither you or your sister can come to his home to help him and neither you or your sister is picking him up from the hospital. Of course he might showtime them and yell and convince them that he is perfectly capable of caring for himself and take an Uber home after discharge but at that point there is only so much you can do. You are not God and you can't make some people act "right" or be "rational". If you continue to help him you will stress yourself and your marriage. Sometimes you just have to let it go and deal with the G -- that is grief, not guilt. Wish you the best!
Thanks for your reply. This is exactly what he does! (insert laughing emoji!) I am unwell and my marriage is under huge strain because of him. My sister and I, our aunt, uncle and his best friend have all told him until we're blue in the face that he needs proper support to live at home but he argues and refuses. He just wants to recruit local young students (!) to be his 'helpers'. You are right about letting go. Thanks :)
I just read ur reply to Alva. This is the opportunity u have been looking for. He needs to be evaluated for 24/7 care and if found he needs it, you tell the W that to send him home would be an unsafe discharge. You have tried to get him help. APS has been involved but because he is uncooperative they closed his case. You refuse to care for him. Tell them you were not raised by him and he had nothing to do with you until he needed u. The State will need to take over his care because u refuse to have POA, which he probably wouldn't give you, or guardianship.
If he is dying, best place for him now would be Longterm care. That way when Hospice is called in, he still has round the clock care. In home, family does most the work 24/7.
Please, do not have any guilt in this. He has made his bed and now he has to lie in it. You reap what u sow. He has brought this all on himself because he is stubborn.
Just saw your response to Alva. I’m sure this is horribly stressful for you and your family.
At least he is in the hospital right now and receiving care. I am not sure that you can do anything other than wait it out. It’s very sad. I’m so sorry that you are in this situation.
Wishing you peace as you continue on this difficult path.
Are you his POA? If so you are able to do certain things on behalf of your dad. Does he need 24/7 care, otherwise, why would you have a live-in caregiver? Most home care agencies do not have live-in employees. Tell him smart people get help so they can remain independent. There is no shame in not being able to do certain chores, or simply not wanting to do them anymore.
"Tell him smart people get help so they can remain independent".
Wonderful advice!
Hits the pride nerve plus gives a great reason he can accept to change his mind. Love it.
So many people view *accepting help* as a weakness don't they? What if they viewed *flexibility* as a strength? What if they rose to the challenge of old age by becoming more flexible instead of more stubborn?
Reasonable suggestions. I might add to look into what you would do if the call came from a hospital. I routinely ask people who like a caretaker or agency for the name to file away. Hospital social workers in my experience are diligent and will look into your suggestions AFTER YOU STATE YOU CANNOT PROVIDE ADEQUATE CARE
Thanks for your reply. I'm in the UK and I'm afraid our NHS health service is really struggling (at breaking point) at the moment so our experience is that there isn't as much diligence, communication and care as there ought to be in this situation right now.
Tired--you don't sound like a whiner. You sound like someone who is being used and is finally tired of it. I saw comments suggesting that your dad didn't take care of you as a child (he wasn't a dad). I'd have a hard time doing anything for him under those circumstances, and especially if he isn't appreciative and kind to you now. He wants to call the shots, so I think you should let him, and stop riding to the rescue.
Walk away. Tell him you can’t help him anymore because he won’t help himself. Next time he calls with a medical emergency call 911. Once he is in the hospital you tell them he is an unsafe discharge, neither you or your sister have medical or financial POA, and you are unable and unwilling to help him further. The state will step in from there. Live your life. You have done enough.
If Dad is in the hospital this is the opportunity for placement. You’ve done enough and clearly know you can’t help someone that refuse to help themselves. Please don’t accept POA or any level of being responsible for him. Don’t let social worker con you into anything.
To echo what a lot of people have said... The best way to "care" for him at this point is to care enough to STOP doing all that you have been doing for him. That may be the only way that he will realize that he has to accept help OR something will happen that will force him to accept. Honestly what would happen to him if your sister went on vacation and you were sick at the same time? What would he do? What you could do is next time he is in the hospital, of if he is still there tell the doctors, Social Worker, Discharge Planner that he can not be discharged to home as it is not safe. You can invite someone to come an assess the home if they wish. This might provide a brief spell in Rehab if that is needed. But at this point if no one is willing to document that he is not cognizant there is not much you can do but back off and wait until something happens.
From your profile: "...due to logistics I am now helping him with everything, when he won't help himself. He calls me with a medical emergency every few days and claims he can't breathe and is dying. When I rush over he perks up and sets me to work!"
Back in late October, you stated you'd cut the visits down to once per week.
I take it your visits have greatly increased.
Your father didn't even pay child support until you were 16. Why do you feel you must try to look after and save this man?
What happens when he leaves the hospital after this latest hospitalization? Will you be able to stay away?
You can't "fix" this one. I am sorry you are going through this. It isn't what you signed up for, is it? Walking away, quietly, is the right move. Live your life, and do the best you can to move forward. He doesn't seem to be willing to do anything to help himself, help you help him, or find any joy in whatever life is left in him. It will get better for you. Hang in there.
I agree with the others . Stop doing anything for him etc. I do want to add that you have in your profile that you don’t want him to go to a care home . A care home is exactly where he belongs. Who would be willing to be a live-in caregiver in the filthy house that you described? I would be speaking with the social worker at the hospital , tell him/her that there is no one to provide care for him at home , and that you are not taking him home. Either he goes home on his own or hopefully it would be deemed unsafe discharge and social worker finds him a care home . Either way you walk away from this . You don’t have to take care of him . He’s being stubborn .Don’t visit him in his house . If he ends up in a care home you can visit him there if you like , but I question if that is wise either. He will be angry . He’s ruining your life with his stubbornness, as well as he’s a bully . You said in your profile that you feel guilty that you should be doing more. There is nothing for you to do . The man refuses care. That’s on him .
Thanks for your reply. My profile needs updating. We now want him to stay in a care home and you're right, we're not sure a live-in carer would cope with such a rude and difficult man in such a dysfunctional and dirty house! I guess I have been struggling for years with setting boundaries. Your words (and others) make a lot of sense and I'm going to try and heed them, thank you :)
Leave your dad and let him folly in his house. Stop seeing him and stop taking him home from the hospital. If he is still home, the time may come when he will get injured and be forced into a nursing home for his care. Let The State welfare service decide.
You're absolutely right (we never take him home from hospital by the way, he always self-discharges and gets a cab). Have got him his care home place and am now backing right off!
You leave him to rot (your profile doesn’t mention any kind of dementia so I’m assuming he is of sound mind and just the typical stubborn old fool).
If he calls you and says he’s having some sort of health crisis, call 911 and do not involve yourself any farther.
Stop providing even a few hours a week care, he most certainly does not deserve that much consideration from you. Do not go to his home at all.
If he dies alone in his home screaming in pain because he was too stupid to accept outside help, then that’s exactly what he deserves. I believe the Dickens terminology is “reduce the surplus population”.
You can't help him. He wants what he wants and d**n with everyone else. Next time he calls you for a health emergency, tell him ur calling 911. You now know what he is doing, stop reacting.
There is a reason he was not in your life. Old age does not erase that he wasn't a Dad to you. He should expect nothing from you. You either walk away or have strong boundaries like Mountain said. You do not owe him anything and you aren't responsible for him because he is your bio Dad.
Next time he is in the hospital do not pick him up. Tell them you cannot care for him and there is no one in his home who can. Its an unsafe discharge. Do not take on POA. Call APS, let them evaluate and take over his care. Explain that he did not raise u and you are not willing to be responsible for him. The State will take over his care. If APS evaluates and thinks he can live on his own, then u back off.
Your option is to walk away. He isn't going to change and will never accept help until there is a disaster.
If walking away is too harsh than set strict boundaries and stick to them. Agree how often you will visit and don't help for any other reason. He will quickly discover he needs more help.
I read your profile and it sounds like your dad needs lots of help in many ways and just not with his daily care. Sounds like he may be a hoarder as well, and that is a mental issue on top of everything else. He requires more care than you could possibly ever provide and the fact that he's not a very nice person and never has been, even to you, tells me that you should not be the one caring for him. If he continues to refuse to hire help, then you must just walk away and call Adult Protective Services and report a vulnerable adult living by himself. They will then come out and do an assessment and take things from there. If you continue to do even the littlest of things for him, he will continue to believe that he doesn't need any help. So you must stop. And realistically you already know that he belongs in a facility. 24/7 care will cost him much more than a facility will. Your dad needs help. Please call APS.
Thanks for your reply. Dad has always been a very difficult character but now its off the scale. Yes he's a hoarder. He hasn't thrown a single pair of pants, socks or other clothing away since 1966! Or anything else for that matter. Adult and Social Services (APS) have assessed him twice. He has repeatedly refused their advice and assistance and kicked them out of his house. They told me they closed their file on him due to his repeated refusal of help. On top of that we are concerned about a potential safeguarding issue. A neighbour has befriended Dad and is enabling him to think he doesn't need full time care. There is evidence of coercive control and this person now has free access to Dad's house and garden (they are 'keeping an eye on things' for him). We have had to report it to authorities.
Sorry, but we need more information. Does Dad have dementia, or is he otherwise disabled in some physical way?
Does Dad live alone?
Does Dad have a POA working for him in his behalf?
If Dad doesn't have dementia with incompetency in his own safe decisions he is able to make his own life decisions. We can better answer you with more complete information. Am wishing you the best.
Hi, thanks for your reply. Dad is back in hospital. He hasn't been diagnosed with dementia but we and doctors suspect early stage dementia. He regularly has delirium so hard to diagnose dementia at the moment. He now has a UTI and LRI on top of stage 3 heart failure and chronic kidney disease. Basically he's dying and we know it but he is in a state of anger and denial. He was diagnosed as not having capacity last week but that has been reversed. Doctors say just because he makes unwise, eccentric or unsafe decisions does not mean he doesn't have capacity. They can't re-assess his capacity while he has infections. My sister and I are both now ill from stress as this has been going on for 3-4 years. Dad has refused to give us POA. His bills are going unpaid and his house is empty at risk of burglary/squatters. I sound like such a whiner!
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Then they approach the pearly gates, retreat and go in the hospital. Then they go home. Approach pearly gates, fall down and go into the hospital. Then they go home. And so on, like a cheesy board game with no prize. Dying at home is, therefore, not even going to guarantee that they really do die at home.
You might have a conversation with dad about this end result of not really dying at home. But he probably won't pay attention. It would be interesting to know what HE thinks will happen. Like maybe he thinks he'll be lying there in his clean bed all bathed and neat and happily alone, switching channels on the TV with the remote, and his heart stops beating with no pain or agony, and then he proceeds to Heaven and collects $200. Not likely.
More likely is having an attack of something, vomiting all over himself, trying to get up and falling on the floor where he stays and his bowels and bladder empty automatically as happens with death. Later you walk in to check on him and find him dead and lying in his own body fluids.
If you tell him realistically what will happen and that he should spare you the awful consequences, maybe he'll care enough about you to give up on his foolish idea and hire some caregivers. Then again, maybe not.
Because he wants to die at home.
Very sorry, Tired. It's difficult.
It's his right to self-determination that is in play here. He's competent. If he is able to call a lawyer, self-discharhe and get cabs, he is competent to call a home health care company.
His wants do not dictate your actions any more than your wanting him in a place where he can get professional care dictates his.
Step back and let him manage by himself.
When out to sea in a storm, the ship's Captain can radio for help or battle on without.
Maybe your Dad is the type of Captain to choose to go it alone, even if the risk is high to go down with his ship.
It's his ship afterall.
Tell them dad lives alone and that you and your sister are mo longer able to assist due to health and safety issues.
Tell them it will be an unsafe discharge if they send him home.
Do not sign his discharge papers.
Do not provide transport.
He has capacity, right?
Then let him capably find himself home health care and pay for it.
hospital-rehab-home*crises*hospital-rehab-home*crises*hospital-rehab*switch*Nursing Home
(And sometimes 'demise' breaks the loop instead)
Wish you the best!
If he is dying, best place for him now would be Longterm care. That way when Hospice is called in, he still has round the clock care. In home, family does most the work 24/7.
Please, do not have any guilt in this. He has made his bed and now he has to lie in it. You reap what u sow. He has brought this all on himself because he is stubborn.
At least he is in the hospital right now and receiving care. I am not sure that you can do anything other than wait it out. It’s very sad. I’m so sorry that you are in this situation.
Wishing you peace as you continue on this difficult path.
Wonderful advice!
Hits the pride nerve plus gives a great reason he can accept to change his mind. Love it.
So many people view *accepting help* as a weakness don't they? What if they viewed *flexibility* as a strength? What if they rose to the challenge of old age by becoming more flexible instead of more stubborn?
The best way to "care" for him at this point is to care enough to STOP doing all that you have been doing for him.
That may be the only way that he will realize that he has to accept help OR something will happen that will force him to accept.
Honestly what would happen to him if your sister went on vacation and you were sick at the same time? What would he do?
What you could do is next time he is in the hospital, of if he is still there tell the doctors, Social Worker, Discharge Planner that he can not be discharged to home as it is not safe. You can invite someone to come an assess the home if they wish. This might provide a brief spell in Rehab if that is needed.
But at this point if no one is willing to document that he is not cognizant there is not much you can do but back off and wait until something happens.
Back in late October, you stated you'd cut the visits down to once per week.
I take it your visits have greatly increased.
Your father didn't even pay child support until you were 16. Why do you feel you must try to look after and save this man?
What happens when he leaves the hospital after this latest hospitalization? Will you be able to stay away?
I do want to add that you have in your profile that you don’t want him to go to a care home . A care home is exactly where he belongs. Who would be willing to be a live-in caregiver in the filthy house that you described?
I would be speaking with the social worker at the hospital , tell him/her that there is no one to provide care for him at home , and that you are not taking him home. Either he goes home on his own or hopefully it would be deemed unsafe discharge and social worker finds him a care home .
Either way you walk away from this . You don’t have to take care of him . He’s being stubborn .Don’t visit him in his house .
If he ends up in a care home you can visit him there if you like , but I question if that is wise either. He will be angry . He’s ruining your life with his stubbornness, as well as he’s a bully .
You said in your profile that you feel guilty that you should be doing more. There is nothing for you to do . The man refuses care. That’s on him .
Don't pick him up from the hospital, don't do anything, back off, let the chips fall where they may.
Sounds like he has been the man in charge all his life, he always wants his way, the order giver.
You owe this man nothing. Move on.
If he calls you and says he’s having some sort of health crisis, call 911 and do not involve yourself any farther.
Stop providing even a few hours a week care, he most certainly does not deserve that much consideration from you. Do not go to his home at all.
If he dies alone in his home screaming in pain because he was too stupid to accept outside help, then that’s exactly what he deserves. I believe the Dickens terminology is “reduce the surplus population”.
There is a reason he was not in your life. Old age does not erase that he wasn't a Dad to you. He should expect nothing from you. You either walk away or have strong boundaries like Mountain said. You do not owe him anything and you aren't responsible for him because he is your bio Dad.
Next time he is in the hospital do not pick him up. Tell them you cannot care for him and there is no one in his home who can. Its an unsafe discharge. Do not take on POA. Call APS, let them evaluate and take over his care. Explain that he did not raise u and you are not willing to be responsible for him. The State will take over his care. If APS evaluates and thinks he can live on his own, then u back off.
If walking away is too harsh than set strict boundaries and stick to them. Agree how often you will visit and don't help for any other reason. He will quickly discover he needs more help.
He requires more care than you could possibly ever provide and the fact that he's not a very nice person and never has been, even to you, tells me that you should not be the one caring for him.
If he continues to refuse to hire help, then you must just walk away and call Adult Protective Services and report a vulnerable adult living by himself.
They will then come out and do an assessment and take things from there.
If you continue to do even the littlest of things for him, he will continue to believe that he doesn't need any help. So you must stop.
And realistically you already know that he belongs in a facility. 24/7 care will cost him much more than a facility will.
Your dad needs help. Please call APS.
Does Dad have dementia, or is he otherwise disabled in some physical way?
Does Dad live alone?
Does Dad have a POA working for him in his behalf?
If Dad doesn't have dementia with incompetency in his own safe decisions he is able to make his own life decisions.
We can better answer you with more complete information. Am wishing you the best.