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I have Durable POA and could step in if need be. My dad is 90. He keeps reading info on the internet and fears that he and my mom's money will be taken from them. So he's looking for a safe to keep all their money in the house. OR he's looking for switching all the money into Swiss money -- or gold. Aagh!!! He is a very brilliant man who has lost the ability to do everything that gave him purpose in life (fixing everything that needed fixing in the home, teaching, etc.). So this is his way of "being in control." All that this does is cause friction between my mom and dad, and I can't help him listen to reason.
He was tested for balance issues by his neurologist about 8 months ago (CAT scans, but not MRI) and was found to be clear of Alzheimer's. But I realize that can change at any time.
I feel like I'm having to be marriage counselor as well as caregiver to both of them. When is the point that I need to take financial decisions away from him?

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The Swiss Franc is pegged to the EURO. That wont help him much but I think that your Father is not as off track as you believe. With most of the Central Banks, China, Russia, India and several of the European countries trying to re patriot their gold holdings the USD is being dumped rapidly.
The increase in the USD is a direct result of how bad the global macro economy is and obviously based on our debt and labor participation rate the dollar has gone from being used in over 70% of trade to 50% and is losing reserve currency status as all other fiat currencies have done in the past.
Several highly respected financial ellitists have upped their advise on holding 10% of assets in precious metals to 50%. To meet him half way and put 50% in pm's in my opinion is not such a bad idea right now.
I do alot of research on this subject and most of the big banks are having record setting shifts from bonds to gold and silver. You know what they say "When in Rome"
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Charmin, where is your dad and mom's money right now? Conservatively invested, t, bills? Is he worried about losing his funds to medicaid claw back (real) or some invisible force that's going to confiscate everything (delusion)?

Has he had cognitive tests of reasoning, not just memory?

Does he have a fee for service financial advisor he trusts?
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Two good answers so far....The first answer shows a lot more insight than I possess, despite having been tied to the internet nearly 24/7 looking at ways to protect/grow our nest egg up until 2005 when my wife's catastrophic illness caused us to spend almost all on her nursing home care...One caution I suggest is to avoid any product called an "indexed annuity"....They look good in the sales literature, but I have heard the contracts can be nearly 100 pages of small print....US Treasuries would be an investment of my choice for nighty year olds..No reason as I see it to take risks at their age.

Brainstorm: if dad loves classic cars, he might enjoy shopping for and enjoying a 40s, 50s or 60s car, all restored....Keep it in the garage, all shined up...for about $25K he could pick up a decent oldie, perhaps not show car quality, but still nearly pristine...

Grace + Peace,

Bob
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Unfortunately the "invisible force" is now quite visible. The new bail in rules to protect the TBTF's have been clearly written into law now. Your bank deposits and retirement funds are now considered a loan to the bank and not your money. With the top 5 banks being into the derivatives market with your "invested" deposits at the tune of 700 trillion dollars (mostly currency/ Forex markets) they have made it legal to keep your money and give you worthless promisary notes.
It is no longer a theory but a law. Remember Cypriots ended up with 20 cents on the dollar of their bank deposited funds.
zerohedge/news/2014-11-12/russell-napier-declares-november-16-2014-day-money-dies
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I can feel your concern and frustration. Just a heads up, I have POA for my 93 year old mom, but her attorney explained that a POA isn't as easy to enact as you'd think. The individual would have to be compliant and willing to let you do it, because a POA can be changed at any time unless the person is deemed incompetent by their medical team...or even a judge. I was told that even if the person is only 40% mentally competent, it would still be challenging. POA's in my book are only useful if the person is totally compliant/cooperative, or if they are completely mentally gone. Not easy, very disturbing for those who are on the border, but it's made that way to protect the senior from being taken advantage of. Good luck.
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Another thing we need to keep in mind as we take over the financial affairs of our loved ones is that for a bank acct. to be classified as "dormant" it used to be a period of 15 years. As the states have become more desperate they have dropped it to 3 or even 1 year in some states.
The states can now take that money and also what is in security boxes now in most states.
sovereignman/trends/introducing-the-newest-tactic-for-governments-to-raise-cash-14566/
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Yes. It happened to my IRA's at a credit union, a credit union I am very active with. I thought if I left them to re invest they would be a "nest egg" later. I found that after 3 years they just disappeared. It took 6 months of ridiculous paperwork to get them back. (fyi credit unions are regulated different them banks)
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If you dad is of sound mind, he should be able to do what he wants with his own money.

I'm not going to get into the financial aspects of this, although I will make one comment. Years ago, my dad told me not to take out home improvement loans because at some point the housing market would have a correction.

I laughed.

He was right.

'nuf said.
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Yikes, lots of financial advice here!

But, back to your question about Dad. It could be that he's still thinking critically about his finances (as many answers here assume), but I'm gonna make an experienced guess that this is a dementia symptom. Illogical or extreme dealings with his finances were the first sign of his dementia and we didn't see it because everything else was 'normal' (or so we thought at the time, looking back, I can now identify some signs). By the time we inserted ourselves into his finances, he had literally nothing left but the roof over his head. Even that was compromised by his failure to pay his real estate taxes. It's been five years of mess and stress that I wouldn't wish on anyone.

So, if Dad was always one to consider the 'road less traveled' with regard to his investments, maybe that's all he's doing here. BUT, don't stand by until it's too late.

Has he always handled every bit of his investments? If not, and there's an investment counselor he trusts, take him for an appointment to discuss. Also, if you haven't already, while he's still pretty sharp, take him to see an elder law attorney. That way, you can get their estate in order and secure what he and Mom will need to live on should they need care. Maybe if you set aside some 'mad money' for him to shuffle around it will alleviate his anxiety about controlling his money. That's a VERY common thing among those who suffer from dementia.

I have a family friend who has always been very sharp with investments, now that he's in his late eighties he spends as much as 8 hours a day puttering around on his computer, watching and moving his money. A fleeting anxiety and a few clicks of his mouse and he could jeopardize his whole future.
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You may think this is crazy, but I don't think keeping your money at home in a safe is necessarily a bad idea. The interest rate at the banks is less than 1%, so it's not like he's making a whole lot on the money that he is letting the bank use. My opinion is that if you want to make sure you know where your money is, keep it where you can see it.

With the way things are going in the economy & the power that the government is exerting on this country's citizens, they could possibly take control of the banks & the money. There's been plenty of talk about the government taxing retirement accounts (thereby, taxing them twice). There's nothing wrong with being in total control of your money.

I don't putting the money into a Swiss bank account or gold is a good idea.
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While it's possible that your dad has some valid ideas, it sounds to me as if your concern is that he wants control over his money no matter what. Is there a way that you can give him a small amount to "play" with? A lot depends on assets, but if he has his own account of some kind maybe that would satisfy him.

If your parents have a financial counselor this person may be able to reason with your dad. Getting things out of the family can be a big plus - it takes away the feeling that he's being bossed around.

Good luck with your struggle. This isn't uncommon and it is very, very frustrating.
Carol
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@Isn'teasy - I know . I'm not comfortable giving it. This is certainly not the forum to be listening to financial advice from people we don't know. I added my dad's advice just as an example of how I laughed at him. I wish he were alive to have seen the stock market crash and housing plummet. He died a few months before. That deprived him of telling me, "I told you so" and I can see him smiling.

I like your answer about the financial attorney. 'DAD" just may be worried about his assets being taken by the government for his care and your moms at some point.

That being said, I have a problem with that in that nobody is entitled to an inheritance and quite frankly, the government is paying out much money for nursing home care (I've seen nursing home care as high as 12,000 a month. There are ways to 'gift' money (I believe it's at least eight months before a person needs the care) and ways to spend that money down to care for individuals involved. Only an attorney can tell a person how to do this. I know I've spent some of my mother's money down on items for her care (and items that will make her feel better. She was never one to spend on herself, so I did it for her :) That may not be popular with the government, but I'll deal with that later. And if I have to, I'll supplement whatever they hit me with by just paying from my own accounts.

This is not going to be popular, but I believe the parents' money needs to be used to care for them in their time of need. I used to be angry that the government would take money, but when you think about this, once either half the money is spent down (leaving the other half for the spouse) or whatever, then they kick in. Nursing home fees are expensive. Thank God we don't have to pay for that is all I can say. Let's just say at some point, I'm not going to get an inheritance, not even a small one. :(

Oh well, not too worried about that because we all know what happens in the end anyway :) We're all facing it, we might as well be honest about it.
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I totally agree Too Young except for one point. Since I bought gold has beat every market and allows complete control without management fees. Im up over 440% even at these manipulated lows.

"For the past decade, the gold price increases tremendously from merely USD270 per ounce (oz) in early 2002 to USD1,664 (RM5,089) per ounce (oz) at the end of 2012. That was 516% increase in US Dollar"
This was written January 2014.
Fiat money acquires its value from government decree. It has no commodity value. Gold/silver is independent of government failures and has retained its value for over 5000 years.
Like JP Morgan stated:
"Gold is money. All else is debt"
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I cannot comment as to whether charmin's father has a legitimate issue, but I've seen two extremes with some older people. Some become gullible and give money to anyone who asks for it whether legitimate or not, and others are certain that everyone around is a crook.
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Gold really!?!?! Well…...

Today's spot is $ 1,216.92 oz

High was $ 1,900.85 on September 5, 2011

Drop of 1/3 of value. Add in mint & distribution 10 - 15% to reduce even more.

I actually remember the whole Krugerrand & Hunt brothers metals craziness of the early 80's. Going to Europe & bring back some Rands….it was loco. Ladies standing in line to sell their flatware & tea sets. Crazy. I would love for it to be 1980's again as I was a size 6 and one some kinda hot babe. Not happening!

Gold, she is pretty though. Can't deny that. Blanchard has some wonderful coins, especially the Republic shipwrecks (I'm in New Orleans, their HQ is here).
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very snappy answer...I will refer to you as "6" as in size from now on..
Thanks for good laugh..
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"You know what, Dad, you're right -- things are volatile, and it's a good idea to revisit the financial plan. I want to learn, too. So I found this very highly recommended financial adviser, who spends all day thinking about this stuff. Will you go with me, so we can both here what HE or SHE has to offer to the conversation?" EVERYBODY needs another brain to bounce their ideas off -- as all the advice here shows!
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I had the DPOA and my parents with dementia (was undiagnosed for years even through doctors were "testing" for it) did some crazy and unreasonable things.

This is more about control. He's lost so much and is going to fight for what he still can control. If you think he is of sound mind, than you need to let him continue to make choices, even through you think they are bad ones. I'm sure your parents thought the same of you at some point in your lives.

If you suspect dementia because these are now uncharacteristic of him, then you need to pursue other methods to keep them and their assets safe. I got to the point where we were days away from pursuing conservatorship (which can be very expensive).

Are you paying the bills already? If so, consider how to set up a system to include him in the process. Best wishes. I spent much time dealing with this verry issue and you can see the many attempts, failures and progress made at dealingwithdementia.org
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many good answers are given. My only suggestion is take half and let him buy the gold. You should be legal guardian and with POA all assets would be your responsibility. I have had dads dr. Write a letter stating mom and dad are not mentally capable of handling finances therefore if needed at some time I would be made executor of all health and finance/assests. their ss checks will go directly to me.
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NH care in Connecticut is $15,000 a month. With a roommate. Middling place. Not 5 star. Private pay. Just so you know.
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I think you're right to be concerned. It may turn out not to be dementia related, but just in case it is, I would suggest that you start making some formal records of your father's statements, especially if he says or does something very uncharacteristic or that indicates his executive function is slipping. I also think the advice to have him discuss his idea with a trusted financial advisor is very good. Someone who he trusts, but who will talk to you as POA so that you can keep tabs on what he's thinking. Hopefully for your sake this is not a sign of anything other than a brief flirtation with the idea of putting his money in gold (not the first time anyone's ever thought of that, for sure!) -- but if it is, forewarned is forearmed. If you have kept a record of his statements and actions that seem out of character, if it does seem to be getting more extreme, you can set him up with a neuropsychologist for an evaluation. They do a thorough 3-hour assessment that can give you a more definitive diagnosis than your doctor or even another specialist might be able to do, and it's well worth the time if you suspect he is slipping. If you have your list of strange occurrences/statements handy, that will be helpful for the assessment and can be shared privately with the neuropsychologist if you don't want to hurt your father's feelings or alarm him. Best of luck to you!
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The elderly person's mind is not the same, of course. We all know that. Many elders are targets of scams via the telephone, mail, etc., e.g. the company asking for donations. Sadly, if not told not to otherwise, the elder will send his or her last dollar to the company/organization. This activity needs to be monitored by a family member. I had to with my Mother who lived in a different state, but was giving out donations on a VERY limited income!
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Charmin...

I can offer you some advice from my own experience! I am close to your father's age..."87" and I have been the "financial" advisor in my own family since we were married.

My wife recently "passed" and I am responsible only for myself alone. I have 3 children, 6 grandchildren and 6 great grandchildren. All of my family fortunately are not waiting for my demise.

I like your father, have few years to go even if our health is ok. I have quite a bit of assets that are liquid and am only concerned with saving them for as long as I need them. I'm not worried about my children.

My solution to "where to put the money" is this ===. I have a (revocable family trust). It is a trust where I am the only trustee and my daughter is next in line in case of my death. She has "POA for all of the financial & my two sons are 3rd & 4th in line in the event my daughter becomes unable to manage her affairs. Plus she has a POA for my health affairs.

The only reason that I am concerned about all of this money is in case I require " long term care" or "assisted living", I will be capabile to pay for it. If anything is leftover after my death, all of the trust money and assets go to my children as the "Will" states which is also attached to the trust.

I suggest allowing your father the "right" to know that he still has control of his money but it is locked into the trust.

You will need a competent attorney to take care of setting all this up.S

Good luck and God bless,

Sonny
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I completely agree 100% with you, 'Litldogtoo Give a Hug'. It isn't a topic friends want to get me started on when the complain about being fearful their parents won't have anything left after paying for their assisted living/nursing home expenses. PLEASE, PLEASE PEOPLE they earned their money, they are entitled to use it for themselves!!
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Well, first of all about all the financial advice....I think that is important at this stage. Perhaps Dad understands more about markets and politics and world economy than you know! In our family, we are saving in gold and keeping money at home. We dropped accounts at banks a couple years ago and all is with a credit union now, because the fed gov't has their hands in banks. I would say, a good time to help him understand that an app't with an eldercare attorney or a financial advisor is appropriate because so much can change so fast with the elderly as far as health goes, and it wouldn't hurt for you to sit in on the discussion as POA so you understand Dad's wishes AND the other's recommendations. My understanding of my own POA, is that it is acceptable to have the parent keep control of whatever they are able, and just be their eyes and ears, help them write checks, keep financial stuff organized, if they are able. If it's frustrating them, or they are not able, then you move to sharing it. I sort of share with Mom. She doesn't want to pay bills, but she wants to know what's happening. She's made some not so good decisions with money, so know accepts that a good answer with sales people is to say, 'Give me your number and I'll have my daughter call you because she pays all the bills' if she's not wanting to deal with them. Or if she thinks it's something worth looking at, she will get the info and have me check them out. She agrees to nothing by phone or at the door. But she has her credit cards and she has an OK to go to the bank and draw money out of the account when she needs money and she is essentially happy if I just tell her...." Mom, just want you to know all the bills are paid..." But when she wanted a new floor, or new hearing aides....she wanted to be involved in all the pricing, visits, choosing designs and all that.....so fine.....we go with what she wants as long as it makes sense. Sometimes she fights potential decisions, and then I have their attorney call her in for a meeting and he becomes the teacher, the 'explainer' or sometimes, even the 'bad guy' who says, it's time to sell something she doesn't want to sell....or that this or that is the way to look at the investments in order to prepare for Medicaid applications down the road. There are just too many things that cost in the end of life, and some decisions can totally delay getting approved for benefits if a person must be placed and money is running low....so for everyone to look at all the possible things up front is good. My parents had a very specific living trust for the elderly that was so helpful in all this they've faced....as it divides the estate and saves half for the spouse at home if one has to be placed in a facility. One can be on Medicaid and placed, while the other one still has half of all the assets to provide for them as time goes on....It was put together by their eldercare attorney.
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I got the impression that Mom was NOT in line with Dads attempts to manage the money? If mom of clear mind? Mention was made of becoming a marriage counciler too? So don;t let Mom out of these debates, she has a right to worry about her own future security
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I totally agree with Sonny. The reasons not to keep your money at home, even in a safe, are theft, fire and scams.
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Sonny...sounds like you have a trust similar to what my Dad set up for he and my Mom. At least it seems to be set up in a very similar manner....except there is only you in at this point. Once Dad was placed in memory care, and we used his half of the assets, and he qualified for Medicaid, then all the remaining assets went into a new trust, just in Mom's name, to provide for her. That just happened last April. Now, it's time to consider how to redo planning to assure she can remain in the home, with helpers as a short term goal, but as resources run out doing that, she would also have to get qualified for Medicaid to, if she lives long enough and her Alzheimer's gets too much worse....at that point, if both are still alive, my long term goal would be to have them both placed in memory care together. My mom is so sad about all this, with Dad being gone from home for two years now....all she really wants is to be able to sleep in bed with him again....yet it's not possible for him to be at home with her as the expense of 24/7 care is more than they have. And she cannot do any of his care herself. This end of life stuff really SUCKS in lots of ways!
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Your Dad or Mother or both could possibly need that money in the near future for assisted living/nursing home. So he should keep it where you all can get quick access to it. Keeping it in the local bank is probably the best place at their ages. Not really sure why he is so worried about it...but I think the elderly do get that way whether they have dementia or not. I'm kinda getting that way and I'm no where near 90! I have to keep telling myself why have I saved all this money..I need to start spending it!!
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Don't wait like I did. I now had to put hubby in nursing home. We are only on two ss checks. W two pension checks. .have nothing in bank. He spent his whole retirement monies 35,000 on lottery tickets. I am trying to make ends meet now he is on mass health medicaid low income prescription Medicare. .get to your pocket. Physical. Have him get evaluated by. Cognitive psych. Dr..get in touch w an elder army. Sign a no pay waiver to them if needed lk us..now I can at least sleep peacefully. W/out worrying that he w be buying more tickets..registry got called by Ddr regarding his dangers of driving. .he can't now..we sold his truck...now its where it shd be..in a place where I don't have to worry anymore. Make yourself POW and health care proxy.. just do not wait lk me
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