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Can a family have someone sign papers for them when the person signing these papers have dementia and didn't no what they where signing? He takes pills for his dementia. Can we sue her shes not making carpayments.
Did your daughter know that your husband had been diagnosed with dementia? With whom does he live? '
Did he co-sign both the purchase agreement and the loan? Is his name on the title, jointly with your daughter's?
Assuming that she knew and got him to co-sign for her, you may have an out if he's considered a vulnerable adult under and has the benefit of some statutory protection in your state. This is a question for an attorney.
In the meantime, contact the lender, advise of the conditions and make them aware that your husband didn't have the necessary capacity to understand what he was signing. Mention that you're investigating your options legally, but that since your daughter has defaulted on payments you also want to address the issue of selling the car before repossession is instituted.
I don't know what to advise you though if title to the car is held jointly, assuming your daughter won't sign off on any sale.
You could call the lender as well, but start the document trail, and document all calls and contacts. The lender may just agree to some kind of plan to bring the payments current, rather than repossess the car. But it is time to get the car away from your daughter.
I suppose if you wanted to you could sue her in a small claims court, or a district court, but if she's not making payments, what assets does she have on which you could get a judgment and execute it?
You do need to act quickly though, b/c the lender is likely going to consider repossession and then you've lost the car. Perhaps you might have your attorney draft an agreement by which you bring the payments current and she relinquishes her rights to the car, then you can sell it before it's repossessed.
This is called undue influence at minimum and elder financial abuse. If you belie this is happening call the department of aging in your county government to report it. The will investigate.
I feel very bad for you, both for the theft and for the sad state of your relationship with your daughter. I hope you can at least get a remedy for the financial part of this!
If your Dad is incapable of making financial decisions and unaware of consequences of signing papers, someone should get POA and take over his finances. f not, things will get much worse real quick. Good luck.
This is a large problem that needs your immediate attention. Get started ASAP As other have stated this is a case of elder abuse and you need help from others to deal with the many aspects of this event. 1. Find a lawyer that deals with bad debt, bankruptcy, etc. Get a free hour with him/her. Tell your story. But first, find out how many loan payments your daughter has missed. Also does your father have any paper showing that he cosigned the loan. 2. Start a diary of emails, telephone conversations. etc. You need to show that you have taken action and continuing to do so. 3. Write letters to the three major credit bureaus (can be done online-I think) about this event. Your daughter's nonpayments are becoming part of your father's credit file and dragging down his score. 4. Have a "come to Jesus" moment with your daughter. Call her and give a deadline. Also send her a certified letter that she has to sign for. The post office will help figure out what type of service you need in order to get a signature. If she refuses to accept the letter, then keep that info in your diary or record-see #2. 5. If the car is located near you, then see if you can get someone to tow it to a locked facility. If you are a member of AAA or your car insurance has towing as part of its policy, then call AAA and tell them to tow the car. You need to be there when the tow truck arrives. The towing guys only want to know if you are a member, not whether you own the car. 5. As other have suggested, find an eldercare attorney if there is one near where you live. If not, find out how to get a Power of Durable Attorney, so you can act on behalf your father. But you will need a definite diagnosis from a physician. You might think that this is a ton of work. But you have stumbled into a hornet's nest. You need to protect your father by taking action. It must be heartbreaking in so many ways. Good luck and let us know the outcome.
You can sue anyone for anything just make sure you have documentation for your attorney. Your sibling is a fraud. A contract has to have the signor and/or co-signor competent.
Main question here is do you already have an activated POA, if so then you will need to send those to the loan company which will prove he was incapable of signing and then they will have no legal course against you however it will affect his credit score. It seems your daughter needs a come to Jesus talk or a good scare. If you don't have a POA in place I would recommend getting one right away.
First, the greater concern is your husband's finances. If his dementia is disabling enough that he's making poor decisions about his money, someone in the family should sit with an elder law attorney and talk about how to protect him from himself.
Now, as for the opportunistic daughter...ask yourself if you want to keep this issue in the family or not before you 'drop a dime' on her with APS. That will trigger a process that you may regret later.
Also, ask yourself if she may have seen this situation another way – does dad have a lifelong pattern of 'spoiling' her? This is something that's often seen once an indulgent dad gets dementia. The adult kid chugs along, taking and taking from dad as she always has. The difference is that now, the rest of the family will step in the way in the name of protecting dad from the child. I agree that what she's doing is selfish and greedy, but is it new behavior or is dad's dementia the only thing that's new?
Finally, if she's not making payments, isn't this a problem that will fix itself? Dad's credit will take a hit if the car is repossessed, but an elderly man doesn't have the same need for his good credit score as a younger man. Of course, you should sit down with your daughter, as others have said, and spell out your view of things (unemotionally, if you can manage that): • Dad has dementia and will no longer be in charge of financial decisions. • If she needs financial help from mom and dad, she must come to you. • You will not be making car payments for her and, if dad's name is on the car, you will have the car sold if she does not get up to date on the payments.
If your relationship with your daughter is such that you can't have a conversation like that, I'd still threaten a call to APS and give her a shot before I'd actually call them.
It seems to me she needs to refinance immediately to remove him from the financial obligation. Should you require Medicaid at any time, they will allow one car only, and the one she has with him will need to be sold immediately. Have her try One Main Financial - they will take the car as collateral and probably charge her 25% interest rate, but it would only be her on the debt and the title. Good Luck. You have many legal recourses that will help, however, he needs to be off the loan. Removing from the title does not remove his obligation on the loan.
I agree with what IsntEasy wrote. This is a problem that can fix itself. You might want to get a little legal help so it will fix itself more quickly. The first big question is if the father (your husband?) was legally competent to sign a contract. If he wasn't, then the contract isn't valid. You have to be of sound mind to enter into a contract. Then it becomes daughter's problem. I wouldn't worry about a hit to the credit score. This is important when young, not so much when older.
If he had not been deemed incompetent, then the contract will be legal and subject to the normal non-payment processes. The problem you had made me think that it is important for us to have doctors write letters that someone is incompetent when it is true. Doctors don't like to do that, but the letters would be worth their weight in gold in a situation like this.
Let's get one thing straight. A Power of Attorney does not give the holder of the POA the ability to make decisions for anyone in any capacity. Having one proves NOTHING. It only gives you the power to sign things on their behalf. I have seen this hundreds of times. If the man has been diagnosed with dementia it still is a very tough case to prove. The man will never say he was tricked by his daughter in a court of law. I have never seen this happen. He does understand that their are consequences and he will protect his daughter instinctively. The only legal recourse is to have him declared incompetent. This is a complicated process. It involves two attorneys. One for the patient and one for the person seeking guardianship. It also requires two doctors to examine him and both declare him incompetent. It's a long complicated process. If you are successful you may or may not succeed in revoking his signature as co-signer as it would have been signed before he was declared incompetent. Your best bet is to pursue a resolution with the finance company directly. with enough perseverance and constant calls you may get to a person with some power who will be sympathetic and propose some sort of resolution.
"A Power of Attorney does not give the holder of the POA the ability to make decisions for anyone in any capacity. "
My attorney who drafted our estate plans (and who's practiced successfully for years) will be interested in learning that someone who apparently has no legal training knows more than she does.
I have no idea on what you base your opinion, but you're wrong.
And my father's DPOA specifically grants his proxy the authority to enter into and execute necessary documentation for transactions, and make decisions necessary therefor, in lieu of, and in his place.
I am not sure why you believe I have no legal training. That is an assumption on your part. I deal with this on a regular basis. Yes you can execute documents on the subjects behalf BUT THIS DOESN'T TAKE THE DECISION MAKING PROCESS AWAY FROM THE SUBJECT. Only a guardianship can do that. Check your facts and don't just ASSUME things.
Here is what will happen. You will file a complaint with the police or the local prosecutors office. Everyone will be nice and sympathetic because like you they know that this is wrong and something should be done about it. Then it will go to the prosecutor . He will examine the case based on the evidence and determine that the subject is not a reliable witness and he can not put him on the stand because he has dementia. Having dementia does not make someone incompetent. The subject may agree that he was tricked in an interview with the prosecutor but once on the witness stand he will more than likely stumble or forget or be overcome by the consequences that are about to happen to his daughter. It will be the subjects word against his daughter and the daughter will appear credible. CASE CLOSED! The prosecutor keeps his job based on his performance and doesn't like to appear foolish in front of the court. I have been dealing with this directly for over ten years. I have seen seniors with dementia duped out of cars, expensive personal items like TVs and computers. I even had one case where the nephew convinced his uncle he should buy income property with his savings. The uncle agreed and after the house was under contract and the closing date was set the nephew told his uncle that because of his frail condition he didn't need to go to the closing. Just give him the check and he would take care of everything. He did take care of everything including signing all of the paperwork as the purchaser. The nephew now owns the house free and clear. The uncle was an Adult Protective Services case with a trustee at the bank to watch over his money. Because he was not declared incompetent there was nothing ever done. My comments are not based on opinion. I live this.
SeniorAdvisor is right. Having POA simply allows you to act on your father's behalf. It certainly does not take away his right to make his own decisions, including taking away your POA if he chooses to. Designating a POA doesn't mean you've declared yourself incompetent. Guardianship is a very involved process (as it should be).
Wow! Once again I am reminded that MY daughter's faults - messy room, overweight, expensive tastes - are trivial. She would never do this unless she was on drugs. I'm sure she will never be on drugs, but who can really be sure of anything in the future?
Nahal 1018, you have my deepest sympathy. Who ever thought their sweet little baby girl would grow up to do such a thing.
I would start with the dealers salesman and financial officer. Show them proof from a doctor that ur husband is not capable of signing papers. They may be able to revoke the sale and repo the car based on false info. You may have to make the payments due, if any, then you can sue ur daughter. You may have to get a lawyer.
If the daughter is not making payments, The car will be repossessed. You can't pick up the car unless your name is on the title. That's theft. Yes it will cause the fathers credit to suffer but he won't be able to make this mistake again. Seek legal advice to minimize the repercussions. Good luck.
All I can say to this is that it must be very different outside of the UK (and I know it isn't always the case). By its very nature dementia is the issue that removes the competence levels of decision making (be that a low level or indeed total inability) MUM CAN MAKE CHOICES BUT NOT DECISIONS. She cannot articulate or think through the processes involved in decision making - i.e. the impact of spending large amounts of money. I am her POA and I have just bought myself a car with HER money. And I deem it to be in her best interests. And I can justify that. She needs transport to get to doctors appointments hospital appointments, go to church, go to day clubs, meet up with friends which means I go and collect them and take them home.
She also needs to go out to interact with the world at least twice a week to stimulate her mind, such as it is. Now yes I could pay for taxis to do all that but it would cost over 5K a year- well over 5K a year in fact if she went to all the places we go to it would cost nearer 8K a year so buying a car for 8.5K made sense - if she were to die tomorrow then she loses money (well the estate does) and if she dies in two years time then the estate balances itself (after fuel) after that we are in a win win situation.
In terms of convenience it is much easier to have a car on hand for emergencies. So as POA I made a balanced decision which my mother never could have done. She couldn't have gone through the process. So yes I have a car and no I wont be making payments back on it but it sure as hell isn't financial abuse for the car still belongs to the estate although in reality I own it. If I had tried to buy it as POA then I couldn't have gotten it for the price I did, there would have been registration issues and transfers of ownership to do later. It was simpler all round to do it the way I did and I had the full agreement of the other POA.
So before we all jump in on one side - there may well be two sides to this story or more probably 3, one person's the other's view and then the reality. I am not remotely saying anyone is lying but that perspectives can be very very different
phoenix, I agree with what you did. I think the big difference here is the daughter in the OP isn't her father's caregiver. At least that wasn't mentioned if she was. Another problem is she isn't making payments. I know you are responsible enough to make the payments, phoenix, if there are any.
See Jessie thats why I posted - there isn't enough info in that original post is there and to be fair Jessie I have no intentions of making payments to Mum as she doesn't pay me for caring for her which I do 24/7 and if that sounds awful to anyone then walk a mile in my shoes peeps....Jessie I don't mean you when I say that hun x
In NJ its called co-ownership. My daughter got credit for the payments but the title is in my husbands name. If she didn't pay, my husband would be responsible same thing with co-sign.
As mentioned here, definitely contact the lender. Another thing to do when you contact the lender is to remind them of the elder laws for your state. Let them know you're taking legal action through an elder care lawyer and you intend to hold all involved parties responsible for the incompetent patient having consigned for a car that he never should've been cosigning for since he's incompetent. If your name is not somehow tied to the car, I'm not sure you're going to be able to intervene with the car itself. However, you can take guardianship of the incompetent relative who cosigned for the car. I would also contact the three major credit bureaus a fraud alert on his credit and dispute the car which is most likely on his credit. If you must hire a consumer protection attorney, they are more likely to be able to get desired results. I found one by accident years ago and it didn't cost me anything. In fact, I actually won $500 out of an incident where I paid off an account but it was not removed as derogatory from my credit report. You may try searching the web because consumer protection lawyers are out there but you must find them.
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Did your daughter know that your husband had been diagnosed with dementia? With whom does he live? '
Did he co-sign both the purchase agreement and the loan? Is his name on the title, jointly with your daughter's?
Assuming that she knew and got him to co-sign for her, you may have an out if he's considered a vulnerable adult under and has the benefit of some statutory protection in your state. This is a question for an attorney.
In the meantime, contact the lender, advise of the conditions and make them aware that your husband didn't have the necessary capacity to understand what he was signing. Mention that you're investigating your options legally, but that since your daughter has defaulted on payments you also want to address the issue of selling the car before repossession is instituted.
I don't know what to advise you though if title to the car is held jointly, assuming your daughter won't sign off on any sale.
You could call the lender as well, but start the document trail, and document all calls and contacts. The lender may just agree to some kind of plan to bring the payments current, rather than repossess the car. But it is time to get the car away from your daughter.
I suppose if you wanted to you could sue her in a small claims court, or a district court, but if she's not making payments, what assets does she have on which you could get a judgment and execute it?
You do need to act quickly though, b/c the lender is likely going to consider repossession and then you've lost the car. Perhaps you might have your attorney draft an agreement by which you bring the payments current and she relinquishes her rights to the car, then you can sell it before it's repossessed.
Is she addicted to something?
I feel very bad for you, both for the theft and for the sad state of your relationship with your daughter. I hope you can at least get a remedy for the financial part of this!
As other have stated this is a case of elder abuse and you need help from others to deal with the many aspects of this event.
1. Find a lawyer that deals with bad debt, bankruptcy, etc. Get a free hour with him/her. Tell your story. But first, find out how many loan payments your daughter has missed. Also does your father have any paper showing that he cosigned the loan.
2. Start a diary of emails, telephone conversations. etc. You need to show that you have taken action and continuing to do so.
3. Write letters to the three major credit bureaus (can be done online-I think) about this event. Your daughter's nonpayments are becoming part of your father's credit file and dragging down his score.
4. Have a "come to Jesus" moment with your daughter. Call her and give a deadline. Also send her a certified letter that she has to sign for. The post office will help figure out what type of service you need in order to get a signature. If she refuses to accept the letter, then keep that info in your diary or record-see #2.
5. If the car is located near you, then see if you can get someone to tow it to a locked facility. If you are a member of AAA or your car insurance has towing as part of its policy, then call AAA and tell them to tow the car. You need to be there when the tow truck arrives. The towing guys only want to know if you are a member, not whether you own the car.
5. As other have suggested, find an eldercare attorney if there is one near where you live. If not, find out how to get a Power of Durable Attorney, so you can act on behalf your father. But you will need a definite diagnosis from a physician.
You might think that this is a ton of work. But you have stumbled into a hornet's nest. You need to protect your father by taking action. It must be heartbreaking in so many ways. Good luck and let us know the outcome.
Now, as for the opportunistic daughter...ask yourself if you want to keep this issue in the family or not before you 'drop a dime' on her with APS. That will trigger a process that you may regret later.
Also, ask yourself if she may have seen this situation another way – does dad have a lifelong pattern of 'spoiling' her? This is something that's often seen once an indulgent dad gets dementia. The adult kid chugs along, taking and taking from dad as she always has. The difference is that now, the rest of the family will step in the way in the name of protecting dad from the child. I agree that what she's doing is selfish and greedy, but is it new behavior or is dad's dementia the only thing that's new?
Finally, if she's not making payments, isn't this a problem that will fix itself? Dad's credit will take a hit if the car is repossessed, but an elderly man doesn't have the same need for his good credit score as a younger man. Of course, you should sit down with your daughter, as others have said, and spell out your view of things (unemotionally, if you can manage that):
• Dad has dementia and will no longer be in charge of financial decisions.
• If she needs financial help from mom and dad, she must come to you.
• You will not be making car payments for her and, if dad's name is on the car, you will have the car sold if she does not get up to date on the payments.
If your relationship with your daughter is such that you can't have a conversation like that, I'd still threaten a call to APS and give her a shot before I'd actually call them.
If he had not been deemed incompetent, then the contract will be legal and subject to the normal non-payment processes. The problem you had made me think that it is important for us to have doctors write letters that someone is incompetent when it is true. Doctors don't like to do that, but the letters would be worth their weight in gold in a situation like this.
I have seen this hundreds of times. If the man has been diagnosed with dementia it still is a very tough case to prove. The man will never say he was tricked by his daughter in a court of law. I have never seen this happen. He does understand that their are consequences and he will protect his daughter instinctively.
The only legal recourse is to have him declared incompetent. This is a complicated process. It involves two attorneys. One for the patient and one for the person seeking guardianship. It also requires two doctors to examine him and both declare him incompetent. It's a long complicated process. If you are successful you may or may not succeed in revoking his signature as co-signer as it would have been signed before he was declared incompetent.
Your best bet is to pursue a resolution with the finance company directly. with enough perseverance and constant calls you may get to a person with some power who will be sympathetic and propose some sort of resolution.
My attorney who drafted our estate plans (and who's practiced successfully for years) will be interested in learning that someone who apparently has no legal training knows more than she does.
I have no idea on what you base your opinion, but you're wrong.
And my father's DPOA specifically grants his proxy the authority to enter into and execute necessary documentation for transactions, and make decisions necessary therefor, in lieu of, and in his place.
Perhaps you're only familiar with springing POAs?
Designating a POA doesn't mean you've declared yourself incompetent. Guardianship is a very involved process (as it should be).
Nahal 1018, you have my deepest sympathy. Who ever thought their sweet little baby girl would grow up to do such a thing.
She also needs to go out to interact with the world at least twice a week to stimulate her mind, such as it is. Now yes I could pay for taxis to do all that but it would cost over 5K a year- well over 5K a year in fact if she went to all the places we go to it would cost nearer 8K a year so buying a car for 8.5K made sense - if she were to die tomorrow then she loses money (well the estate does) and if she dies in two years time then the estate balances itself (after fuel) after that we are in a win win situation.
In terms of convenience it is much easier to have a car on hand for emergencies. So as POA I made a balanced decision which my mother never could have done. She couldn't have gone through the process. So yes I have a car and no I wont be making payments back on it but it sure as hell isn't financial abuse for the car still belongs to the estate although in reality I own it. If I had tried to buy it as POA then I couldn't have gotten it for the price I did, there would have been registration issues and transfers of ownership to do later. It was simpler all round to do it the way I did and I had the full agreement of the other POA.
So before we all jump in on one side - there may well be two sides to this story or more probably 3, one person's the other's view and then the reality. I am not remotely saying anyone is lying but that perspectives can be very very different