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My dad who will be 80 next month had never been sick in his life until he had a mini stroke back in 2017. He really didn't have many issues with that. Then he had open heart surgery back in August. During that hospital stay, there were some complications and on top of that he had pretty severe Hospital Delirium. He recovered from that only to get an infection around the new heart valve that was found right after Christmas. It has spread throughout his body and is especially affecting his spine. It cannot be fixed without another open heart surgery. After over 2 weeks in the hospital this time, he was discharged because he was in too poor condition mentally to be able to survive surgery. He is home now and on IV antibiotics via a PICC line for a few weeks and oral antibiotics for the rest of his life. The infection will not go away without surgery. But he isn't a candidate right now. Even if his mind clears up, he would never agree to another surgery. This 2nd hospital stay he also had Hospital Delirium as well as Sundown Syndrome. It hasn't improved and he has been home just over a week. In fact, it seems like it is worse. Other than the Hospital Delirium that cleared up after the first hospitalization, he NEVER showed any signs of dementia until this hospital stay.


My sister, my mother and myself are caring for him but...


*He will walk from the bedroom to the living room on his own but ask for help getting back to his room, or vice versa. Then the next time, he will want help with it all.


*He will go to the bathroom on his own but the next time will call out for someone to help him to the bathroom. Someone will go to help him and he will say nevermind. Then he will proceed to pee or poop in the bed. Or he will call out to us and if we don't answer right away, he will scream that he is going to poop or pee himself if we don't come. And he does and we have to clean him up.


*He will say he is hungry, we will make him something to eat. Sometimes he will eat it, but more times than not, he will play with the food, break it into bits, smear it, throw it, or do other things to it.


*He will yell for one of us, someone will go in and he will say nevermind. We will go back to what we were doing, then 5 minutes later he is calling us again to just do/say the same thing again. Or he will call us into his bedroom and ask for help. When we ask him what he needs help with, he gets mad that we don't know what he needs help with and gets huffy and says nevermind.


He will call on one of us and if we don't jump up and run in there immediately, he will have a little fit and throw things. The other day he kicked everything off his bedside table. When I went in there and asked him why he had done it, he said, "I didn't do it". I said, "Then who did it"? He said, "I don't know". Just like a child would do. Or he will call one of us in there and he has taken his oxygen tube off after we had just put it on him 5 minutes before and I will ask him why he took it off. He will say, "I didn't", or "I don't know".


One of the most heartbreaking things is, he calls us names, tells us we are useless if we don't do exactly what he asks immediately, insults us, and other hurtful things. He thinks we don't love him, that we are hateful, and tells us he doesn't love us. When we have all put our lives on hold to care for him.


We are at our wits end. He and my mother are divorced but friends and roommates. She is not in great health herself and can't keep doing the things she has been doing for her. My sister works full time, has a family with a husband on dialysis at home and cannot take anymore time off. I live 4 hours away and can't continue to travel back and forth, not just because of the distance but I too have a family.


It is very hard to see our rough and tough Marine father that worked in construction all his life be like this. We promised our parents we would never put them in a home. The guilt is eating us alive for even considering it. HELP!

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Guilt belongs to felons. Not to people who are family trying to do their best. What you mean is another G word. That word is grief. I don't really care what you promised because you were not faced then with what you are faced with now.
Placement is the only answer. You are a human being with human needs for your own life, and with human limitations. You aren't a SAINT. If you were a Saint you would be filled with arrows and sent directly to heaven where you would spend eternity trying to take care of EVERYONE in the world.
I am sorry Becca. This just doesn't look doable.
This isn't about love. This isn't about promises. This isn't about guilt.
This is about the way things must be in an imperfect world.
One wonders how much can be visited on someone looking at your post to us; it looks like the woes of a modern day Job.
If the MDs are correct and even IV antibiotics will not rid this poor gentleman of this condition, then this is time limited in any case, because IV antibiotics are unlikely to be a long term answer; soon enough you will be looking at palliative care and Hospice. I suggest it be in-facility care. I am so dreadfully sorry.
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BeccaWNC--It's very possible that your father won't even remember the "Golden Promise" (about never being placed in a facility), so this should no longer constrain you from doing what needs to be done for both his and your best interest.
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First off, I'm so sorry for what you are all going through. I know how awful it is to see your father in THIS condition. Hospital delirium can't even be explained to someone.......you have to witness it with your own eyes to believe such a thing is possible. I've seen it in my mother when she was 92 and hospitalized with pneumonia; she was seeing mice running on the floor and then trying to 'pack her belongings' into the paper wrapper the utensils come in on the food tray. The delirium did clear up after she was released from REHAB 21 days later.

Your father is seriously ill now; open heart surgery is very hard on the body, then to add infection complications & sepsis into the mix is even worse. That he's not a candidate for another surgery thrusts him into another whole category of care needs. To me, this is Skilled Nursing material, nothing less. For you all to have 'promised' him that you'd never 'put him in a home' is something nobody should ever ever do, for obvious reasons. Things happen that are out of everyone's control. Health can deteriorate to THIS degree overnight, and then what? Promises need to be broken and guilt should play NO part in decisions that have to be made moving forward.

Are you or your mother qualified or capable of caring for a man who needs THIS level of care? Are either of you nurses or in the medical field? At the very, very least, your father needs Rehab for as long as Medicare will pay for it..............sometimes 100 days will be paid for, when it's warranted. Has that option been discussed with his doctors? That would be my FIRST discussion with his care team. That and what his long term prognosis is, and what their opinion is for long term care options. Obviously, your mother can't care for him alone, AND they're divorced!

His dementia may or may not improve. Nobody can answer that question for you, really, not even his doctors. I'd be pushing for rehab myself, and let him be tended to in a Skilled Nursing Facility for NOW, to get him back to a good baseline health status at least, and THEN see how he's doing. It sounds like he was released back HOME in bad shape, which is too much for your mother to deal with, being that she's in bad health herself. And you live far away.

So see about rehab. If not, look into in-home help with a CNA or caregiver for 4 hours a day. If he improves, great. If not, long term care in a Skilled Nursing Facility is the best answer unless you have the funds for 24/7 in home care givers to come in daily to care for him. Most do not.

Wishing you the best of luck with a very difficult situation.
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BeccaWNC Feb 2021
Thank you for responding. Yeah, my dad has some episodes like your mom. Like he asked me to cover him with the blanket but got mad because he thought I was covering him with newspapers.

We really seriously considered a SNF both times he was discharged. The first time, we were worried if we put him in rehab, his delirium would only get worse so we rehabbed him at home. It was extremely difficult but it worked for the most part. This second time, we considered it at the recommendation of the doctors. But a couple of days before discharge, the doctors told us they felt the best place for him to recover from the delirium was to bring him home so he was in his own home surroundings. It was hard the first time around but we never imagined it would be this hard the second time around.

None of us are qualified for this level of care. My sister and I have some experience working in the medical field but not to this degree. Right now, the VA is paying for 3 hours a day of in-home care, but when that 3 hours is over, it isn't any better for us. It is more like a respite which we are all very appreciative of. And yes, his insurance will pay for 120 days of in-facility care with the possibility of a 120 day extension after re-evaluation.

On that note, when he doesn't get his way, or he feels like we aren't tending to him enough, he tells us to call the VA to come get him so he can live there. We haven't done that because that is the one place he always told us to never put him. He threatens to call the police if he doesn't get his way. It is awful. He doesn't understand that we are doing everything in our power to care for him and if we didn't care, we would have just sent him away without trying.

I think we know in our heart of hearts we will have to hand this over to a SNF. It is just so incredibly difficult. On top of the decision itself being a tough one, the fact that none of these facilities are not allowing visitors because of the pandemic, makes it all the more difficult. With what seems like a diminished mental capacity, I am worried he will think we just abandoned him.
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I only see one reply so far that mentions UTI. It is possible he developed one in the hospital. The antibiotics he is on may not even touch a UTI, probably need different antibiotics. My mom had a UTI, I kept saying that was the problem as soon as her personality suddenly changed, but hell, what do I know? I'm five hours away, I'm not a medical expert, I read things online, and my friends' parents have been through UTIs and I knew from their experiences that checking for a UTI should have been done immediately. End of story (and I'm still angry, I admit that) is that mom went totally bonkers, dad had to do an ER drop (got that idea from the folks here) before she got any care at all, but by then it was too late. She passed a few weeks later.

Please ask that a culture be done for UTI immediately (takes two days to get the results back). You may have to demand it as they will say that the urine isn't cloudy or there isn't an odor or there isn't discomfort when urinating, etc. That was why my father didn't push for it even though I was saying it should be done. Certainly those nurses knew more than me who has no medical background (but I've been dealing with a disabled husband with multiple issues since 1995, so I know my way around).
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I am so sorry for what you are all going though.

Infection can cause awful confusion. But so can some drugs. With the past history of TIA I am wondering about the possibility of further mini strokes too?

Can you get his Doctor to visit (or a video appoitment)? For a thorough look at him?

Basically if his care needs are too high at home right now he may need to go back into hospital.

Forgot all that *promise* & guilt cr@p for now about care homes. That's a later discussion - there will be help on that topic later.

Right now your Dad is in crises, so just deal with the here & now.
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BeccaWNC Feb 2021
Thank you for responding. I wondered about undetected mini strokes too. We did have a video appointment with his PCP on Friday. She first suggested we take him to the ER and have him evaluated for possible inpatient care in the geriatric psychiatric floor. However, because of Covid, they aren't taking geriatric patients right now. So she suggested trying a couple of new meds to help with the sleep which have helped. We do have an appointment with a geriatric psychiatrist this week but I don't know that our sanity will last all week. I know it is about him, but as his caregivers, we feel like our mental health is suffering too. And we feel guilty about even feeling that way.
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I am so sorry to read all this--and there are no pat answers for you.

Your dad's brain has somehow become 'rewired' probably due to all the trauma of surgery, infection, hospital delirium and who knows what else!

Obviously he is not the same man as he was--and no one can tell you if he's going to become the same man again.

I think you may have to accept that he is not.

If there is a chance for a break in your CG--as mentioned by several posters, take that chance for a time to re-group and see how he does. Putting placement in a NH of some kind does not mean you failed--it just is what it is. A sad set of events.

YOU ladies all need a huge break.

Please don't allow one moment of 'guilt' to enter into this, OK? You're not guilty of anything whatsoever, and moving dad to a better care situation is nothing to feel guilty about!

Good Luck--please do try to get a break! And give your mom a HUGE HUG for caring for a man she divorced! I know that I could not do that!
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Please don't guilt yourself into thinking a nursing home is a bad thing. Sometimes you feel guilty for not doing it sooner, because they're very skilled at handling these issues, and there you were flailing about trying to do your best for weeks or months.

Nursing homes are not the horrific places they were back in the day, and the staff members are well-trained. All this stuff that is so draining and exhausting for you just bounces off them, because they've seen it all before, they know how to handle every situation, and if they can't, they know what to do next. Lean on the people who would care for your dad, look into several places, and ask questions until you're satisfied. I think you'll be pleasantly surprised when the burden of caring FOR your dad is lifted, and you can just care ABOUT your dad instead.
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Hi I totally feel your pain and I had the same situation with Gpops. Same scenario- fine mentally before surgery but complications with anaesthesia meant his heart stopped and resuscitation. He was very confused during hospital stay. I had to demand an assessment and referral to the memory clinic. Scan revealed vascular dementia. Obviously I’m no medical expert but given the heart problems and your description I would want to get your dad assessed for dementia. VDem is v common as we get into our 80s and above as it’s simply the heart not pumping efficiently enough to get enough blood to the extremities of the brain causing the brain to shrink. I’ve done a lot of research and questioned the medical professionals at length but you must get your own advice and assessments done. Hope this helps. X
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So sorry you are dealing with this. Your dad is not suffering from hospital-induced delirium. Hospital-induced delirium happens when people are out of their usual environment, go through a lot of procedures or have a lot of equipment that is not "usual," and tend to not get enough sleep. Hospitals are very busy, noisy places; I have worked all shifts as an RN and the few hospitalizations I endured as a patient were not restful.

Your loved one is most likely experiencing infection-induced mental alterations and maybe another insult to his brain (mini-strokes in the areas that handle executive functions). The infection creates toxins that affect all his organs, including his brain. If the infection does not clear, this is probably his new reality. If he is not getting anticoagulants because of his defective heart valve, he may be at risk of developing mini clots that can lodge in his brain - and cause these distressing behaviors.

The best way to manage this behavior problem is consistency. Try to create a routine that everybody follows when caring for dad. The routine will eventually help him to relax as he knows what is going to happen next. If he has problems in the evening with agitation and confusion, try getting him into the sunlight during the day for 30 minutes or more (reorients his circadian rhythm). Also turn on more lights in the evening, but dim them about 1-2 hours before bedtime so his brain will say to him "it's time to wind down and sleep". Some folks find medications for anxiety helpful to calm the agitation that leads to outbursts. Some folks find using over-the-counter sleep aids and/or CBD oil helpful. Before starting any new medications, consult his doctor(s).

If you find that his behavior is making it difficult for others to function, you may need to place him in a residential facility. Every family member should be able to get 7-9 hours of uninterrupted sleep, 3 healthy meals at a reasonable pace. "time off" to meet their own health needs, and time to have healthy interactions/social life without dad (consider this mental health breaks). If you find that the majority of family are having mental anguish with dad's presence, and can not get their basic life needs met (see list above), then I suggest finding a nice residential facility close to home to care for him. Try to find one that will allow you to visit frequently. Talk to his doctor(s) about whether or not he should be placed on hospice. Hospice would allow family to visit more often and would focus on quality of life rather than curing incurable health problems.
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Unfortunately your father has developed serious physical and mental conditions that are NOT going to be fixed and go away - they will get worse. Do YOU really want to live like this with him in your home? It will become sheer hell for you and you will have no life. When life causes such severe mental and physical problems in someone else and it has a terrible negative effect on us, we should NOT feel guilt because we promised never putting them into a home. Facts change and new decisions must be made for the best of all involved. No family should feel guilt for placing a man with these problems into a facility - that is where he belongs. Think not of what he once was - look at what he is now. He does not belong in your home. You must be strong and glad you care but circumstances require a different outcome now. And I doubt he would know what is happening.
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my2cents Feb 2021
Rusty/Riley2166 You have absolutely no common sense about dealing with dementia and no way of knowing what this poster's father has developed. I suggest that you share all of the things you post with a counselor to find out why you have a need to post things like this. The posts seem to have gotten a little harsher in past few months, so reach out for help. -- That's what this site is all about, offering suggestions on getting help.
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