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I had durable power of attorney over my mother Mrs. Hart since May 18th 2011. My mom passed in January 2014. No one in California respect the forms. I cant even get personal items or knowledge of where my mom's ashes are
Crickett, I'm taking your allegation that he was an abuser seriously. For example, the fact that they were married for 24 years doesn't prove to me that everything was fine: many people do stay with abusive partners, we all know that. But, so, ok - she made you POA because she feared him and she trusted you, yes? So, next question: have you got any proof of that?
Vegaslady are you serious? The reason for her POA was she did not want to combine her income so yes she did not know what she was doing at that time. No he did not use the money for her care and the reason why I had not used it or want to, was it was to be used for her final disposition which I tried to do before she passed, 3 months prior to her passing for you see if you do not have a plan in place it becomes a bigger mess. There fore once again a spouse has no legal authority without a durable power of attorney.
Unfortunately, I think you've already been given all the answers we can provide. Based on the information you've given us, I don't think you don't have a legal leg to stand on. (I'm not an attorney, and I could be wrong, of course.) I don't believe there's any law against a parent not telling a child (or a stepchild in this case) where their parent's ashes are, and there's no law saying they *have* to give you particular items out of the home, such as pictures, knick knacks, etc. If there was a will in effect and your name was in it, you would have been notified by now. If no express wishes were stated in the will in regards to your mother's ashes and where they were placed or who was advised as to their placement, then you will not be told, and no court will force the issue. Same thing with the photos you are seeking - most wills don't even address this sort of thing, because it's usually worked out amicably amongst the surviving family members. It sounds like that didn't happen in your case.
If you believe you have a case regarding the financial abuse you're alleging, you need to speak to an elder law attorney - there should be hundreds of them in California. Grab a phone book and start dialing.
Crickett, I am still curious why the police were called in, and also Adult Protective Service, as you had mentioned the other day.
Reading between the lines, sounds like a lot of family dynamics going here. I have a feeling you and your step-father of 24 years didn't get along, thus the reason why he is not forthcoming with photos and telling you where your Mom's ashes. If there had been a lot of mistrust going on between you and him.
Let the man morn the passing of his wife, and start to mend the fences by asking him if there is anything you can do to help, and if he says "no", then just back down, be polite, and try again at a later time. Telling someone you are going to sue them doesn't make for pleasant conversations.
Crickett, the POA might have been useful if you had used it, which it sounds as though you didn't. Having a diagnosis of dementia does not necessarily mean she did not know what she was doing at the time she closed her account and put the money in a joint account with her long time husband. Did he use the money for her care? The answer to your original question about whether or not you have a case to sue is....not without some evidence of wrongdoing which you haven't mentioned here.
To answer your question on why my mother chose me is simple, it is ones right to chose the person they want. Her reason are simple he is an abuser and has spread his son's ashes in his yard and she did not want this to happen. So does this answer make the validity of her POA more or less legal? Her POA was drawn up in California by an attorney based in California and the reason I wasn't able to use it effectively is the same reason as to some of the answers on this feed. So many want to interpret it than act on it with laws in place to protect her.
Vegaslady that's a good point about the variation from state to state which I agree I hadn't considered; thank you.
Crickett I notice you're not answering questions about the validity of the POA, or why your mother chose to appoint you instead of your stepfather? Which makes me wonder if you had some misgivings about its usefulness in the first place, and would explain why you weren't able to use it effectively while your mother was still with us.
I think Vegaslady puts it very well indeed with "try a different tack." Best of luck, I hope things start to feel better for you very soon.
This is what I mean the POA is as worthless as the papers it is written on. A power of attorney may be needed to access joint accounts and conduct other transactions. Without a power of attorney, the spouse, parent or other interested party must petition the appropriate court to be appointed as guardian of the incapacitated person. Since I had POA and she was not of sound mind when my step father did this, there are laws to protect her but getting someone to do this is impossible. Since my mother had a single acct for 24 years + and at the time he took her in to close her acct she was suffering from dementia therefore when it comes to property that belongs only to you, a spouse has no legal authority without a durable power of attorney. So thank you for all your advice for it is clear now more than ever that a legal document is worthless.
Countrymouse, there are state laws, which can vary quite a bit, about who gets what when someone passes intestate. It is not just surviving spouse takes all. Crickett, in this case, since the bank account was joint it became the separate property of the other joint owner upon the death of the other owner. It's not clear to me that not transfer from a separate to joint account was done improperly. Evidence? The money issue is probably water under the bridge and would possibly be a waste of time, money, and emotional energy to pursue. Crickett, if you want certain family momentos and to know about mom's ashes, have you already asked? If not, why not? If you have and have been turned down, you might try some sort of local mediation service to work out the issues rather than suing which will probably be expensive, lengthy, and cement the ill feelings already in place. Have you checked to see which company provided services for your mothers cremation? Perhaps they will tell you if and who picked up the remains. Right now you see to be sailing head on into a storm. Adjust your sails and try a different tack.
I understand your sadness and frustration. I'm still going to say this, though:
Any law suit is expensive, that's one thing. Next, you can't just sue as a way of asking a question; a suit would be appropriate if you were seeking compensation for some wrong done to you, which means you have to prove you were entitled to something that you were deprived of, or that some harm came to you because of another person's action or omission *when that person was under some form of legal obligation to you.* Not being funny, I'm trying to think seriously of how one might go about asking the nice judge to tell your stepfather or his agents to tell you where your mother's ashes are; I'm trying to think what course of action you could take to make that happen. You could try asking a lawyer about that, but it might not get you very far and still cost you a packet.
Clearly, you also suspect that your stepfather financially abused your mother; I presume you mean by using her resources other than for her direct benefit, or differently from the way she would have wanted him to. But you're going to have a DEVIL of a job proving that, especially if as husband and wife they had habitually shared ordinary living expenses - owned their home together, split the bills, that kind of thing. And while I appreciate that in drawing up POA documents she had taken some interest in regularising her affairs, she didn't do the crucial thing, it seems, of making a will.
Look. What you want is personal possessions of hers that have particular sentimental value for you; and you want to know where she is commemorated. Both of things are entirely reasonable things to want, which means that they in no way constitute any threat or insult. Write a polite letter - it can be as frosty as you like, as formal and official-sounding, but be faultlessly courteous - to your stepfather and tell him what you've told us about those specific requests. The worst that can happen is that he writes back in less courteous terms and tells you to get lost; but even that wouldn't leave you any worse off, just more annoyed.
If your mother died intestate, he now owns all of her property and that's the end of it. If he does agree to give you certain items, he would be doing so out of respect for her memory and he would be doing you a favour. And, in that case, any question of whether or not he was spending her money too freely while she was alive becomes kind of academic - unless you can point to specific abuses. Can you?
You say that her known wishes were violated in all ways. What do you mean? Can you give us some examples?
I'm also curious about this. They were married for 24 years. How come your mother gave you POA in 2011? And has your stepfather in fact successfully disputed the validity of your POA?
Yes I would like to get personal items for example a picture of my brother who passed or have knowledge of where my mom's ashes are. Financial abuse also includes the illegal or improper use of an elder or dependent adult's financial resources. Since my mom took the effort to make out legal documents to insure her wishes were known ,which were violated in all ways, yes I would like to sue for knowledge of where her ashes were laid to rest.
I'm just trying to work out what went on when your stepfather closed your mother's bank account. Your assertion is that at that point, in 2012, she lacked mental capacity and so your POA was in force, is it? So that, in that case, it should not have been possible for your stepfather to have access to her account, to close it, or to do anything with her own, separately-held funds, yes?
So, presumably, you did something about this at the time? And was this when you discovered that your POA was not recognised in California? So what did you do then?
The trouble is, it's all a bit late. And if you're talking about comparatively modest funds, to cover her funeral expenses and not a lot more than that, then I'm not sure what you would like to happen. What would you like to happen?
The pecking order is pretty clear: current spouse, then children. If your mother died intestate, that is to say without leaving a valid will, then her entire estate would pass automatically to her husband. That is normal; there is nothing sinister about it.
Your POA expired when she passed on and gives you no authority over anything. I am sorry for your loss, and I sympathise with your frustration if what you are looking for is mementoes of her and some way of paying your respects to her. But how is suing anybody going to help? And anyway, what for?
It sounds as if you would be averse to this, but if what you want to achieve is peace of mind over the loss of your mother, your best bet would normally be to try for some kind of reconciliation, or at least a coming to terms, with her widower. He presumably retains her possessions and knows where her remains are laid to rest. Well. If that's a current impossibility, perhaps it won't be for ever. Would you at least consider writing him a civil letter explaining what you would like and asking for his co-operation? This assumes, of course, that what you would like is not simply to erase his name and memory from your mother's life story.
It is sad that people's wishes aren't granted. But at the time these documents are written their financial circumstances are usually better.. Longevity of life and medical expenses are usually what eats up most of their money..
What is hard is to have people accept that this was my mom's wishes not mine and what is scary is that one day we all come to this and to see how ones wishes may be handled is a nightmare.
Ok I will attempt this one more time. If a person becomes incapacitated and failed to appoint an attorney-in-fact, then no person may sign deeds, make gifts, or make other decisions without court intervention. A power of attorney may be needed to access joint accounts and conduct other transactions. Without a power of attorney, the spouse, parent or other interested party must petition the appropriate court to be appointed as guardian of the incapacitated person. When it comes to property that belongs only to you, a spouse has no legal authority without a durable power of attorney.I was her attorney in fact and a POA is not a will.• For 24 Years they maintained separate bank accounts, bills, etc. The POA would over rides the spouse pertaining to accounts/assets that are held solely in my Mom's name. My mother was unaware of financial decision that she was made to do. These documents are to insure that ones final wishes are carried out. So the small amount of funds were to pay for her final expenses. A well-drafted Power of Attorney will give your Agent the authority to act on your behalf and to protect your physical well being as well as the financial well being of you and your family. Instead of respecting a legal document he was allowed to manipulate her when she did not understand what she was doing. Your representative has rights to her property and certainly can check her own finances or have her agent do so for her. She is entitled to her personal property. Even though they remain married, that does not give him the right to withhold her property or assets from her. So again she maintained for 24 years a single account and the little money that was in there was to carry out her final wishes as stated in her POA.
Crickett, why were the police involved???? I have a feeling there is a lot more to this story then what is being presented. Did you have to pay for the funeral instead of your mother's husband?
Anyway, it was your Mother and Stepfather's business how they handled their bank accounts. And it was up to your Mother what items you and any other relative would receive. Why not ask your step-father for a picture of your brother?
For 24 Years they maintained separate bank accounts, bills, etc. • For a few years I provided her with phones and purchased a computer for her as well as clothing. I stated this for he told the police her funds were used for shared expenses which they had none. • My Step father closed my mom’s acct in 2012 (May 11, 2012) and they have a joint acct. My Mother was unaware of or did not understand what she was doing • He stated to me that they came to that decision together but he told A.P.S. This was done on Attorney’s advice. Yes the Durable power of attorney had ended upon my Mother's death except the medical which I was suppose to direct her funeral which the funds were to come from her acct. These forms had clear instructions and yes APS was notified but as I said no one respects these documents for he was able to do this even with her having dementia. Yes I would like items of sentimental like my brothers picture for he had passed.
Was your mother competent to make decisions about the accounts? If attorney advised her to combine funds and she was incompetent that could be trouble. Do you know for certain this was on attorneys advice?
Did you object to Mother's money being moved into a joint account? Mother must have consented, especially since someone other than her husband had POA. Do you think this was forced on her against her will?
Im so sorry Crikett as i know how much this hurts you should at least know where she was laid to rest its so cruel. i am worried as to what the witch is going to put on my own dads headstone it dosnt seem right as i knwo shell put something horrible to hurt us even more. Sorry to rant a bit but this is so RAW still with us. She even called herself his wife and the paper announcement hurt like h*ll we were mentioned at the bottom like who the h*ll were we my sisters friends found this very confusing i know she was his partner but she was never "his wife" why say youre a wife when youre not its just making a fool of yourself oh she will get her payback in life.
stegman is right here in Ireland my father died last Dec my mum and dad were seperated not divorced so my mum has all the rights now i was horrified to see that children actually have no rights here you see a parent does not have to leave his children anything by law BUT you cannot leave nothing to your wife even if there was no will my mum is still entitled to 2/3rds of his estate which we are now battling with.
FYI....... In France children are protected in a will against a step parent which i think is right as my fathers partner treated us so badly and took over everything we had no say in his funeral i cant tell you how hard that was for us and still is BUT hopefully we will get her back now as she has no power now as my mum is still his wife. Its hard when a parent does not sort this crap out before they die but like in my case his partner controlled all this way in advance but why didnt he just go and see his solicitor on the quiet without her knowing and be a man.
We are so hurt and dont think we have been mentioned in his will but he has probably left stuff to my stepsister that will hurt like hell but we will have to move on from this. I was hoping for a letter or even that he left his watch to my brother his eldest son? but this witch has not even offered this to him and i know hes deeply hurt its not about money its did he even think about us even once and how this would hurt us?
Now my mum can contest anything my stepsister gets BUT if he left life assurance this is considered a voluntary "gift" so mam cant touch it but she can have his "assets" we dont think there is anything but it would be nice to get back at that smug witch.
The law is a funny thing when it comes to this and us children dont seem to be treated very fairly.
We cant even demand to see the will if we are not mentioned on it we have to wait a year until it goes to probate so if my mum died soon we would have no rights im sure my fathers witch is hoping my mum dies before she can contest pray to god this dosnt happen.
Why dont parents sort this out when there is a second family involved its so unfair and the french are right to protect a childs assets if there is a new partner thats fair.
Sorry, but when she dies, her husband has more power than a POA. If you had been in her Will, you would have been notified. She named an Executor, which again was obviously not you. So as soon as she died, you and your POA ceased to have any function. Your services are no longer needed and there is nothing to sue anyone for.
Who is you want to sue? Yes, I suppose you could sue your step father. He is your mother's next of kin. Unfortunately, he isn't required to tell you anything.
Your Durable power of attorney had ended upon your Mother's death [so sorry that she had passed on]. Did your Mother have a will? Could be she left everything to her husband of 24 years.... since her death was recent, your step-father could still be grieving.
Like GardenArtist had said, what is it your are seeking? Hopefully you don't want back any of the things you had purchased for your Mother, as I believe those items would be declared as gifts to her.
My mom was Married and Resided; in Cherry Valley, California, for 24 years. • For 24 Years they maintained separate bank accounts, bills, etc. • For a few years I provided her with phones and purchased a computer for her as well as clothing. • My Step father closed my mom’s acct in 2012 (May 11, 2012) and they have a joint acct.My Mother was unaware of or did not understand what she was doing • He stated to me that they came to that decision together but he told A.P.S. This was done on Attorney’s advice.
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Unfortunately, I think you've already been given all the answers we can provide. Based on the information you've given us, I don't think you don't have a legal leg to stand on. (I'm not an attorney, and I could be wrong, of course.) I don't believe there's any law against a parent not telling a child (or a stepchild in this case) where their parent's ashes are, and there's no law saying they *have* to give you particular items out of the home, such as pictures, knick knacks, etc. If there was a will in effect and your name was in it, you would have been notified by now. If no express wishes were stated in the will in regards to your mother's ashes and where they were placed or who was advised as to their placement, then you will not be told, and no court will force the issue. Same thing with the photos you are seeking - most wills don't even address this sort of thing, because it's usually worked out amicably amongst the surviving family members. It sounds like that didn't happen in your case.
If you believe you have a case regarding the financial abuse you're alleging, you need to speak to an elder law attorney - there should be hundreds of them in California. Grab a phone book and start dialing.
Reading between the lines, sounds like a lot of family dynamics going here. I have a feeling you and your step-father of 24 years didn't get along, thus the reason why he is not forthcoming with photos and telling you where your Mom's ashes. If there had been a lot of mistrust going on between you and him.
Let the man morn the passing of his wife, and start to mend the fences by asking him if there is anything you can do to help, and if he says "no", then just back down, be polite, and try again at a later time. Telling someone you are going to sue them doesn't make for pleasant conversations.
Crickett I notice you're not answering questions about the validity of the POA, or why your mother chose to appoint you instead of your stepfather? Which makes me wonder if you had some misgivings about its usefulness in the first place, and would explain why you weren't able to use it effectively while your mother was still with us.
I think Vegaslady puts it very well indeed with "try a different tack." Best of luck, I hope things start to feel better for you very soon.
Any law suit is expensive, that's one thing. Next, you can't just sue as a way of asking a question; a suit would be appropriate if you were seeking compensation for some wrong done to you, which means you have to prove you were entitled to something that you were deprived of, or that some harm came to you because of another person's action or omission *when that person was under some form of legal obligation to you.* Not being funny, I'm trying to think seriously of how one might go about asking the nice judge to tell your stepfather or his agents to tell you where your mother's ashes are; I'm trying to think what course of action you could take to make that happen. You could try asking a lawyer about that, but it might not get you very far and still cost you a packet.
Clearly, you also suspect that your stepfather financially abused your mother; I presume you mean by using her resources other than for her direct benefit, or differently from the way she would have wanted him to. But you're going to have a DEVIL of a job proving that, especially if as husband and wife they had habitually shared ordinary living expenses - owned their home together, split the bills, that kind of thing. And while I appreciate that in drawing up POA documents she had taken some interest in regularising her affairs, she didn't do the crucial thing, it seems, of making a will.
Look. What you want is personal possessions of hers that have particular sentimental value for you; and you want to know where she is commemorated. Both of things are entirely reasonable things to want, which means that they in no way constitute any threat or insult. Write a polite letter - it can be as frosty as you like, as formal and official-sounding, but be faultlessly courteous - to your stepfather and tell him what you've told us about those specific requests. The worst that can happen is that he writes back in less courteous terms and tells you to get lost; but even that wouldn't leave you any worse off, just more annoyed.
If your mother died intestate, he now owns all of her property and that's the end of it. If he does agree to give you certain items, he would be doing so out of respect for her memory and he would be doing you a favour. And, in that case, any question of whether or not he was spending her money too freely while she was alive becomes kind of academic - unless you can point to specific abuses. Can you?
You say that her known wishes were violated in all ways. What do you mean? Can you give us some examples?
I'm also curious about this. They were married for 24 years. How come your mother gave you POA in 2011? And has your stepfather in fact successfully disputed the validity of your POA?
I'm just trying to work out what went on when your stepfather closed your mother's bank account. Your assertion is that at that point, in 2012, she lacked mental capacity and so your POA was in force, is it? So that, in that case, it should not have been possible for your stepfather to have access to her account, to close it, or to do anything with her own, separately-held funds, yes?
So, presumably, you did something about this at the time? And was this when you discovered that your POA was not recognised in California? So what did you do then?
The trouble is, it's all a bit late. And if you're talking about comparatively modest funds, to cover her funeral expenses and not a lot more than that, then I'm not sure what you would like to happen. What would you like to happen?
Sorry you're not getting the answers you wanted.
Call an Attorney and go I to court...
Your POA expired when she passed on and gives you no authority over anything. I am sorry for your loss, and I sympathise with your frustration if what you are looking for is mementoes of her and some way of paying your respects to her. But how is suing anybody going to help? And anyway, what for?
It sounds as if you would be averse to this, but if what you want to achieve is peace of mind over the loss of your mother, your best bet would normally be to try for some kind of reconciliation, or at least a coming to terms, with her widower. He presumably retains her possessions and knows where her remains are laid to rest. Well. If that's a current impossibility, perhaps it won't be for ever. Would you at least consider writing him a civil letter explaining what you would like and asking for his co-operation? This assumes, of course, that what you would like is not simply to erase his name and memory from your mother's life story.
It is sad that people's wishes aren't granted. But at the time these documents are written their financial circumstances are usually better.. Longevity of life and medical expenses are usually what eats up most of their money..
Hugs..
Anyway, it was your Mother and Stepfather's business how they handled their bank accounts. And it was up to your Mother what items you and any other relative would receive. Why not ask your step-father for a picture of your brother?
Or maybe it is time for you to move on.
• For a few years I provided her with phones and purchased a computer for her as well as clothing. I stated this for he told the police her funds were used for shared expenses which they had none.
• My Step father closed my mom’s acct in 2012 (May 11, 2012) and they have a joint acct. My Mother was unaware of or did not understand what she was doing
• He stated to me that they came to that decision together but he told A.P.S.
This was done on Attorney’s advice. Yes the Durable power of attorney had ended upon my Mother's death except the medical which I was suppose to direct her funeral which the funds were to come from her acct. These forms had clear instructions and yes APS was notified but as I said no one respects these documents for he was able to do this even with her having dementia. Yes I would like items of sentimental like my brothers picture for he had passed.
APS was involved. What was their conclusion?
Did you object to Mother's money being moved into a joint account? Mother must have consented, especially since someone other than her husband had POA. Do you think this was forced on her against her will?
Again, who would you sue, and for what?
FYI....... In France children are protected in a will against a step parent which i think is right as my fathers partner treated us so badly and took over everything we had no say in his funeral i cant tell you how hard that was for us and still is BUT hopefully we will get her back now as she has no power now as my mum is still his wife.
Its hard when a parent does not sort this crap out before they die but like in my case his partner controlled all this way in advance but why didnt he just go and see his solicitor on the quiet without her knowing and be a man.
We are so hurt and dont think we have been mentioned in his will but he has probably left stuff to my stepsister that will hurt like hell but we will have to move on from this. I was hoping for a letter or even that he left his watch to my brother his eldest son? but this witch has not even offered this to him and i know hes deeply hurt its not about money its did he even think about us even once and how this would hurt us?
Now my mum can contest anything my stepsister gets BUT if he left life assurance this is considered a voluntary "gift" so mam cant touch it but she can have his "assets" we dont think there is anything but it would be nice to get back at that smug witch.
The law is a funny thing when it comes to this and us children dont seem to be treated very fairly.
We cant even demand to see the will if we are not mentioned on it we have to wait a year until it goes to probate so if my mum died soon we would have no rights im sure my fathers witch is hoping my mum dies before she can contest pray to god this dosnt happen.
Why dont parents sort this out when there is a second family involved its so unfair and the french are right to protect a childs assets if there is a new partner thats fair.
Yes, I suppose you could sue your step father. He is your mother's next of kin. Unfortunately, he isn't required to tell you anything.
Like GardenArtist had said, what is it your are seeking? Hopefully you don't want back any of the things you had purchased for your Mother, as I believe those items would be declared as gifts to her.
Who handled the memorial service and cremation?
What would be the specific goals of a suit - to get information on your mother and who has her ashes?
Is your stepfather refusing to provide the information you've requested?
I'm still not getting a clear picture of what you're seeking. Could you elaborate?
Resided; in Cherry Valley, California, for 24 years.
• For 24 Years they maintained separate bank accounts, bills, etc.
• For a few years I provided her with phones and purchased a computer for her as well as clothing.
• My Step father closed my mom’s acct in 2012 (May 11, 2012) and they have a joint acct.My Mother was unaware of or did not understand what she was doing
• He stated to me that they came to that decision together but he told A.P.S.
This was done on Attorney’s advice.