Family dysfunction and the holidays. What is your experience with setting boundaries after a "no-contact" period?

Keep walking forward head held high and don’t make the mistake I made by looking back feeling almost sorry for them and thinking they really want you in there life. They will use you dry, turn words against you, call state services and knowingly lie charging you with things you didn’t do but get this!! In America you will have to prove your innocence and back it up with proof all the while your name your reputation your career are dragged through their lying muck - and the gossip the looks the turning of backs of friends and family begins - and you arent told ahead of time to gather your ‘proof’ of innocence and you are treated like dirt scum by the state agencies already judging you before you tell them your family is mentally ill! And there is no one to back you up or turn to AND these vicious outright knowingly false accusations charges stay with you and the people that make them go Scott free as there is a no retribution clause! They can go after you and destroy your life but you can’t return the favor!! Keep walking and don’t look back! It won’t be worth whatbwill happen to you!

I have the same situation with my mother ( dad is gone and he was the nice one) It is true, it is a mental illness that she has, so any logic you try will fall flat. You have to protect yourself. It takes years and years to come to the understanding and then act instead of react to the craziness. Know that you are not defined by them or their misconceptions of you in their mental illness. Know that they would treat anyone this way if another person was in your shoes. You have to be confident in YOU and your life and if you contact them, keep it short- drop in for 10 minutes and leave. Set boundary- hear a rude comment and walk out. Be firm now. I hung upon my mom when she yelled at me and she called back and apologized and changed her tone that day. It works if you are firm and consistent.

I hear you! My husband's family can be so self serving and talk about you behind your back (I've been unfortunate enough to overhear it.), that I just stay away from them! Who needs to be treated badly?!

You can have a wonderful holiday with people who won't stress you out. There are couples/widows/widowers in my extended family with children living across the country so when they don't travel I invite them to join us (many travel for Thanksgiving or Christmas but not both). This year one of my older first cousins once removed is recovering from a fall and isn't traveling 100 miles for her cousins family meal so she, her husband and their son joined us. I invited my neighbor who retired from Alaska (children still there). A couple of first cousins are nurses and work the holiday; often their families join us. In years past, I invited a lovely childless couple from the church who were just too old for holiday travel but loved bringing a fruit salad across town. I can honestly say I do not miss my estranged family members during the holidays; I'm just too busy planning/preparing the meal and enjoying the people who value my company enough to be pleasant guests.

Gershun,
Think of visiting (in-law) family at Christmas like this:

Would you buy a ticket and go to a two hour boring lecture, one from which you cannot leave or excuse yourself without being criticized? (re: FIL stories).

Or, if you were a brat, you could interrupt, say be right back, hold that thought, and sneak out the back. It has nothing to do with being a mature adult, it sounds like torture for you, Gershun. You do not need to do that to yourself. imo.

This is a timely post since I have been having a lot of mixed feelings about Christmas this year and whether I even want to see my family at all.

Every Christmas seems to bring with it sadness cause I miss my Mom so very much and then anxiety about seeing my siblings. I feel like I've made a lot of strides towards becoming a mature adult who knows her own mind, has her own opinions, etc. Then along comes the family. I'm still that insecure, fifteen year old to them. My opinions mean nothing to them, I'm talked over, laughed at (all in good fun, of course) ha, ha, NOT!

Is it worth it? To leave feeling not taken seriously? Have your opinions ridiculed? To basically be put in your place every year?

I love my family, I truly do, but from far away. I'm still thinking I'll skip it this year. I know that is sort of like running away from a problem instead of trying to fix it but how do you fix a problem like this?

I know the holidays bring grief for those of us with family dysfunction . It's normal to feel sad, cuz a deep human need is unfullfilled. It hurts to see others enjoying family reunions, (I ask God: 'why not me?') I want to blame my mother, cuz of her cruelties to me, but only God can judge. I'm ashamed that I don't do more for my mother. But I truly feel like sh#t around her, & I'm too old for the drama. It feels like I failed her, & failed God. (But He provided forgiveness for my failures, & my mother's failures) at the Cross. That's the only hope I have. Sincerely, tiger55✌.

CM, my mom is the only grandparent my kids have left, as their beloved grandpa passed this year and we're really feeling his absence even more with the holidays. They still have the warm fuzzy memories of her from when they were kids - she was a better grandma. And heaven help me, there is still this little voice in me that thinks it'd be a really cr*ppy thing to leave this 98 yo alone at the NH without family on Christmas.

Boundaries won't work at this point - narcs don't respect them, as they figure if they keep hammering at you, you'll cave in. Don't offer to get reeled in to be the gopher/caregiver. There will be no appreciation of your help or of you having other responsibilities - you'll just give them more opportunities to take shots at you. Sadly, the best thing you can do is keep no contact, enjoy spending your time with people who are caring.

I've been very low contact with my mom this year, especially as my attention has been on my DH's health. I picked her up for Thanksgiving and it was game on before we even left the NH. She may have cognitive loss, but she's able to control the old miserable behaviors. It was a rough day, I was hitting donuts by 1, the wine by 2 and emotionally spent. If there was any way I could avoid picking her up for Christmas, I would -

I went no contact only to discover that my return meant that my Uncle had been instrumental in getting me to go no contact by his covert Gaslighting.... out of his desire to become my mother's POA for health issues (there are two types of POA one for Finance and Health here in Canada). It is a matter of time once she loses her mind that finances will be controlled by him too...

He set a precedent with a neighbor of his...having become a POA for a single old lady across the street in his neighborhood gave him "practise" to get into our fold as a means to do it again. it is so easy to infiltrate a family of dysfunction....

He said he always wanted to go on multiple vacations in a year (he is retired) and suddenly has done so, since this old woman's death. She had no heirs. He said there were 2 possible friends in the west she had, but I doubt he found anyone, thus my guess is his multiple vacations were being funded by the proceeds of this woman's estate.

Now, if I am right..my guess is he's after the family home that I had cared for and tended to as a surrogate parent to my dysfunctional family....I am happier now than ever and can sleep better at night. However, I am left to wonder how long before the "I-Taly-ban" comes to off me for having turned my back on the "FAMILY".... it would not surprise, as when my dad died, one of my nephews shows up with a sharp object in his breast pocket at the funeral, and I only caught a glimpse when he opened his blazer up, when he thought I wasn't looking (he quickly closed up his blazer when I noticed something). I will not put anything past these people. I would suggest you strongly think about your future. Your plans for a better life. Your physical health, like exercise, diet, get a massage once a month...I don't care what it takes...try moving out of State. The further away, the more you can cut the apron strings to HELL. You can forgive them from a distance and just simply limit contact with distant family, and make sure you do not talk about your plans, or your good news on any thing. Any good news will be seen as a threat to your Narcs. Bad news will be cause for stress for you: I told my asinine 85 year old Narc mother who does not suffer from dementia (my father did, God rest his Soul)...that they found a small tumour in my cranium, and sure enough she just piped up and said "well...we all have to die sooner or later." I wish, she would go sooner and before me. I am not going to allow any family come to my funeral. Albeit, they say they wouldn't anyways...Like I said, please believe that narcs do not change. Watch all the YouTubes on Narcissistic Mothers or Fathers, until you are blue in the face when you feel like calling or talking to them...this will remind you that you are finally freed. Be Free. Write a Journal entry, of their positive aspects every night, and put it in a box marked "For God" so that if anything will change, it is up to some Supernatural intervention, even if you do not believe in a God...it matters not, it will remove your guilt out and store it in a box. I am spending Christmas alone, or volunteering somewhere. I rather be alone than in the midst of disrespectful and messed up monsters.

When we see a mirage on the highway ahead on a hot summer day, it is a perceptual distortion. But it is a very real visual phenomenon to those experiencing it. GingerMay, I wonder if you are haunted as I have been for, ahem, forty years to “keep trying” so that you can hold onto the mirage-cloak of family. Hope, where family is concerned, is much softer to face than the reality that they were never really there for you, and never will be. 
 
As I write this, the little voices in my head admonish me for being selfish, self-centered, and harboring a grudge by having set boundaries over the decades. My Mom’s last words to me were “We lost you when you left us” – because I had built a loving relationship with my husband, estranged thousands of miles from her, for decades. I would dutifully visit twice a year, for two weeks at a time. It tore me apart and still does. In Mom’s mind, I was never there. Always The Haunting pulling me  back. FOG (fear, obligation, guilt), sucking my life energy.  Her chain smoking causing asthma in all my sibs and father (I relate to your story well TNTechie).  Even though Mom has been deceased ten years, The Haunting won’t relent. My therapist asked me to read about Complex PTSD each time flashbacks, guilts, or self-recrimination take me over (which is frequent). 
 
All the people here are speaking to you from hard-won experience.   Holiday graphics are a mirage of another kind, and are very cutting this time of year. Hold onto your solid sense of self, and the precious experiences of being that you are awakening to. You are on the right road, and you will come to know how each of your attempts to sculpt contact, or no contact, will evolve for you. It’s an organic process. Some of us are fast, and some slow. But the support here will help you to know you are not crazy or wrong.

We have gone no contact here with both my mom and my husband's parents. When we started establishing boundaries as young adults - the @$# really started to fly. We did the "I love you, but I need to hang up now / go now" and finally went no contact for a few months. When we re-established contact - for a birthday or some holiday - if the @#$# started, we repeated the "I love you, but I need to go now. I will not let you speak to me that way".

Eventually they all "got it". No apologies ever for their behavior. No questioning us as to why we would exit when they started in. But somehow - through our being consistent with boundaries, over time, the boundaries were respected. [always tested though].

Boundaries do not change your parents or family one bit. But they change what you have to put up with and the feelings of sadness, anger, resentment, etc when you are trampled.

Boundaries have made my life so much better. Learning to say "no" and set a boundary is liberating.

Hi GingerMay,

I can't really add much but wanted to say thanks for your question which resulted in so many great replies from great people - it's like an AgingCare Greatest Hits for Family Dysfunction, from the All-Star team. I will say trust your gut and observe your feelings of relative calm and happiness without this family in your life. You have every right to choose that.

Jane

Hi. So many on here are solving their issues with no contact. Not everyone can do that. I am my dad's only person close(ish) by. He can be nice and rational when he's sick, in hospital. But once he feels better, the overblown and unwarranted explosions can happen. He's always been like that, but my mother got the most if it..now that she's gone, it me. We live in Virginia, my brother and his wife, with the wife's calculated prodding (borderline personality disorder) moved to Arizona. Brother calls, Skypes, and does all he can from afar. But though my dad lives in a retirement community, but independent apartment, there is just me. When he blew up at me over the fact he wouldn't say happy birthday to me, belatedly, and screamed for me to never come back (huh?!), I was happy for 2 days thinking, I'm free... But I can't do that. I'm sure many of you are in same boat. Wed have the right to protect ourselves from mean dysfunctional person..but..we can't. And as a true child of dysfunctional family, I keep hoping, and thinking it will all get better. It doesn't. I just have to prevail..no choice.

Because you are a caring person, you want contact with your aging parents and that's to your credit. I think there's also some pressure from the happy family myth and a self imposed judgment that there must be something "wrong" with you if you are estranged from family. Maybe it's the same kind of pressure battered women feel to remain with their husbands.

In a strange way, I consider myself lucky to have confronted family estrangement at a relatively young age (during the 80s when I was in my 20s) with a very clear cut issue. Being a severe asthmatic was difficult in a culture that embraced smoking outside high school doors, in college hallways, all public spaces, and nearly every workplace. Getting a car titled required standing in line while people freely smoked all around me - and a trip to the ER later that night when an acute asthma attack struck. Working in a smoking office, my asthma was constantly aggravated, my airways always swollen and choked to some degree with mucus. On my doctor's orders, I went straight home from work, showered and changed clothes to remove the smoke from my person, slept elevated to ease my breathing, hired a housekeeper to avoid the dust from vacuums, etc.. Lots of medications with lots of side effects.

The family problem was that while I needed to avoid smoke and other airborne irritants as much as possible, my brothers married smoking women that were "insulted" to be required to smoke away from the open windows of my parents' house during weekly family gatherings. I was just wanting attention, a little smoke couldn't possibly be a "real" problem, etc. Somehow the ER trip where my breathing was so compromised my heart stopped a decade before was easily forgotten. I insisted my SILs not blow smoke in my face and my parents backed me up - no smoking near the house (my parents had never allowed smoking in their home). My brothers announced they were not coming to Sunday dinner until their wives could smoke anywhere they wanted (including inside the house). My parents, particularly my father, didn't take the idea that someone else thought they would be making decisions about what was allowed in his home. One brother told me I could "fix" this by just telling our father the smoke didn't really bother me. I told dear brother that I had no obligation to risk my life so his wife wouldn't be inconvenienced to walk 100 ft before lighting up.

After a few weeks, the brothers and their wives returned to Sunday dinner with no real resolution. They still felt they had been wronged and my father was showing undo favoritism to his daughter. When one DIL told my father he favored his daughter over his DILs he responded "of course I do, she's my child". Then everything blew up in a grand argument. There was no contact from one brother's family for 7 months; the estrangement from the other brother would last 8 years. Occasional phone calls were made to my mother telling her how much they wanted to come back but couldn't until the smoking issue was resolved. I told Mom I agreed, it must be resolved - the smokers and their supporters must admit they were out of line trying to dictate smoking tolerance in someone else's home and apologize. In time, my parents and I received those apologies and family unity would prevail for over 25 years, until conflict over my parents' care pulled us apart again (although along different lines).

My rapprochement experience is it doesn't work unless the offending party admits their actions were the cause and apologize. Otherwise you are just setting the stage for an ongoing battle and all the stress that goes with it. There's nothing "wrong" with valuing your welfare and peace of mind more than stressful contract with disagreeable LOs. I mourned the relationships I thought I had with my siblings and moved on. Today I am estranged from an older brother because we disagree on how to care for our parents. I love him, but have very limited contact.

From someone who has a family like yours, I feel your pain. I know what you are feeling at the holidays as well. It seems you are "waffling" on the no contact.
I had to set boundries too. When sibling rolled into town with an hour's notice, we were back to high tensions and guilt tripping and demands. Ugh.
So I would keep contact to phone only. That way you are not stuck in a house for hours, or restaurant anywhere waiting for the end of the meal. You can decide if the phone call is turning bad. Then get off the phone quickly. Unfortunately these narc behaviors have worked over a lifetime. They are NOT ever going to change. It was probably established by their family growing up. It has worked for 70 odd yrs or so. You are not ever going to change it.
Dont get in a room with them. Waste several hours of your life.
Start 1 phone call 1x a month. If it gets bad, end it. Keep a timer and stick to the time alloted for the call. I think they can behave with a phone call. If in the same room, they will get the courage to start up on you. My narc behaved for awhile. When sibling rolled into town, I had 2 narcs making comments, demeaning, trying to embarrass me. No thanks.

Dont worry that you dont have the perfect greeting card family, and you think husb does. They were probably on their best behavior. I used to think his family was great. Took 10yrs to find out, but the narc mother took turns on which wife she didnt like. It seemed like it was one for awhile. The one wife doesnt speak the entire visit. Kept her head down. The other had the holiday meal over in 10 minutes. Im not kidding. They would put 2 bites of food on the plate, and got up with their plates, and left after gobbling it down in 2 mins. Kids disappeared into their rooms.
The venom was pointed at me 1x. I never went to another holiday dinner. Im done with that. I saw that he had the same type controlling narc mom. I hope that is not your case.
I hope all your holidays are great. Remember a lot are on their best behavior. I think every family has weird dysfunctional dynamics.
Keep yourself at a safe distance from yours. You think you are retraining them, but you are not. It will happen again. A safe distance is best for your sanity.

Hi everyone and thank you for taking time to reply. I appreciate your very wise insight and advice more than I can say. Everything you have posted makes sense to me. Thank you for being here. Bless you all.

I personally didn't have narcissistic parents. My father could be a pain at times. But just reading about some of our posters families tirers me out. Just the stress of not knowing when the shoe is going to drop would be stressful. I stay away from passive aggressive and condecending people. So if I had a family as disfunctuing as yours, I would stay away. Why punish yourself. I would make no deals. Let Dad take care of Mom. He took the vows, for better or worse. Let those people who criticize you step in when needed. Why feel guilty. If they had been good parents, you would be a good daughter. Enjoy your holidays. Being around negative people is not good for you.

If Dad ever calls for help, you need to set boundries. If once he criticizes you, you will walk out and not come back.

I am no therapist, but there is something about the way you're approaching this that strikes me.

This re-establishing contact thing -

By the way, I speak as someone who stays no contact if I decide to go no contact. The rapprochement part is not a speciality of my house! Just so you know.

Anyway. You have told your Dad - your vulnerable Dad whom you love, even if not uncritically - that you will re-establish contact only if x, y, z.

The trouble is that the x, y and z are things that your parents are in control of. They are conditions which your parents have to meet. Who decides whether an illness merits contact? Who decides whether a given task is strictly practical? They do. I know you have to agree, and you can decide against, but by the time you do that you're already in contact with them. With them pleading and you trying to say no.

No no no no no. That is not how boundaries work.

Your boundary must be something of which *you* have complete control.

E.g. I will call at intervals of x days/weeks/months for a health update.
I will visit on Sundays between 11:00 am and 12:30 pm, leaving earlier if I am made uncomfortable.
I will keep a To Do list which I will attend to on ___day mornings/afternoons.
I will keep a pay as you go cellphone for use In Case of Emergency.

As much or as little as you like of these or other examples. But the *key* thing is - who decides? It's got to be you.

There are 168 hours in a week.
Plan to use them in a happy, wise way.
Reading, researching, and thinking about narcissists or how to deal with them, then trying to figure out how to deal with the negative emotions in the aftermath can be done in July 2020, if ever you would want to schedule ten minutes for that.

Understandable, your feelings are familiar, missing the emptiness of wanting, needing, the caring of another person who was supposed to love you but cannot.
Take 3 days to go thru withdrawal, then again in 30 days when you start doubting if you made the best decision for your health.

Another thought: Our family nearest us should not have to hear,: "Do you know what my Mother/Dad said to me?" Rehearsing that to them just makes you kinda like an ugly person. I understand, one must get that toxic pain out, so share on here, or with a therapist. After a time of no contact, you will have less and less thoughts about what they said/did to you in the past.

Detach from the toxic chaos, with love. I am liking the idea of sending cards.

P.S. Except for the fact my hubs Mother will complain: "Why did you not just send me the money you spent for the card?" and: "Do not send a birthday card, you can send a mother's day card", OR "Thanks son, for the money, I know your wife sent it, does this mean she is speaking to me again?".

See? Get it? Rehearsing the shock, confusion, and chaos just makes me look bad.

Ok, some personal experience here. I was completely out of contact with my Dad for 12 years. Yes 12, more than one decade.

My mother was 3 years.

I have only in the last two years had contact with Dad and only in the last couple months with Mum. They divorced years ago.

It took that long for me to develop the ability to walk away when they start to act up.

For the sake of your own well being, please continue as you have been, stay safe, and stay away.

As well as NPD, we have a family member with Borderline Personality Disorder. The only way I can manage is to have very strong boundaries. Those boundaries are in place even though one person has dementia. I have been told to go visit, but I know it will make no difference to the well being of the person, but will harm me.

Enjoy your joyful holiday season with your husbands family.

I would advise against any attempts to reestablish contact - I  frankly don't see any urgent need for you to do so at this time.  Narcissists (and their enablers) are very sneaky people and you, though well-meaning, are providing them a way to haul you back into their dysfunction. (Which is what they live for.) What good purpose would it provide at this point?
As for your "guilty" feelings - I suspect that at Thanksgiving you had a wonderful experience of what good family life should be.  And.. of course you wondered why your family of origin couldn't be at least more like this.. but you need to realize that their dysfunction has been well established over a long time and would need professional guidance for them to even understand what good human relationships are. Please keep in mind that you cannot fix them. Change is really up to them. Meantime, rejoice in your husband's family life.

Detach with love.
Try not to become your own worst enemy over this.

Wow--
A hot topic for so many of us.

I have been incommunicado with YB since last Jan after a "family council" about mother's ongoing and increasing need for care blew up in my face. (YB is her primary CG and jailer-she lives with his family and he has taken this "job" to the extreme.)

I have seen Mother a few times this year. I call her occasionally, she NEVER calls me (same phone # for 41 years, she simply doesn't call, ever). Taken her to lunch as I am not allowed in brother's home.

Ridiculous, right?

Holidays will be as such: I will take mother out to lunch one day in Dec. I will give her a small gift and then I will call her on Christmas Day. That's it. I will also send out the mass email to the rest of the sibs to remind them to please not forget her. Some will bother to visit, some won't. Can't control that. We cannot have family parties anymore--too much tension.

Trying to manipulate people into doing "the right thing" is bound to fail.

If I were you, I would send a nice card. Mother's on a fixed income, so I always give her a GC to a favorite lunch place or the grocery store-or just a $50 Visa card.

I am happier and saner staying as far away from the crazy that my family has become. Don't even talk to my MIL as per her request, so that's a no brainer. DH has to get her gift to her and take her out to dinner or whatever.

We all want the Hallmark movie Christmas. It's not real. Make your own holiday with the people who love and cherish you. Too many Christmases with me crying in the bathroom--I'm too old for that. Toxic people have no place in your life. A lesson learned late in life for me.

LOL Amijoy, I too was thinking GingerMay should just send a card. And hey, the phone lines work both ways , there is nothing stopping them from reaching out to you, is there?

It's nice that you have figured a way to stay happy and drama free lately and without the dysfunction. I say yay and why not continue as Ahmijoy says. I love the idea of sending nice holiday cards and not attempting to contact. That way, it sends a positive message, without getting caught back up into it. IMO, we all have dysfunctional families. It's just how much of it can you tolerate that's the question. lol Seriously, some are pretty tough and I don't think that I could deal with it.

But, if someone has dementia, like you say you mom has, I'd try to lower my expectations. Even if she was very narcissistic before dementia, you can't hold her meaness, rudeness or lack of insight on her after dementia. It might not be fair, but, you really have to overlook a lot, due to their brain damage. And, if you can't do it, then there is no disgrace from stepping aside. I get it. Sometimes, the situation is just too toxic to handle. And, if you dad is thinking clearly and not helping matters, then, he may have to take the full responsibility. Whatever your choice, I'd try to stay out from the drama and enjoy your holidays.

I truly think this is an “all or nothing” situation. You really cannot pick and choose whether you will be in contact with your family “on the third Friday of the month only when there is a full moon and the Beagle howls in the woods at midnight.” And, I have to ask, if things are going so well with Hubby’s side, why in the heck would your want to throw a wrench in the gears? The Holidays are stressful in the best of times. Throwing a dysfunctional family into the mix and you’ve got a recipe for disaster. Then you’d be right back at square one.

If you feel you need acknowledgment from these people, go to Hallmark, buy a nice, generic box of cards and send them each one. Write no notes, just your name. Then get on with your now happy life.