In a family who has left me out of the loop for years, now what is my responsibility?

I would put myself first and keep my distance from them.. There is no way I would let her live with me!!!! As your brother likes to tell you he's in charge, so let him continue...

What Assy (sorry!hee hee) said.

Personally, I'd tell your brother to piss off the next time he TELLS you you HAVE to take care of your mother and that you'll do it the next time there's a blizzard in hell...and I'd change my phone number while I was at it. The end and good riddance to both of them.

Thanks for the comments. I have pretty much distanced myself from my family. However I know at some point soon, I will get that phone call that I need to come up and stay with/take care/be there for mom. My brother works for at least 7 more years before he is retired and my SIL is a workaholic. There is one nephew, a nice young man, but very dependent on my brother and SIL. No one has time for mom and she has for some strange reason got a chip on her shoulder at me. Everyone who knows her just thinks she is very strange and she has no relationships with any of her brothers and sisters that are not one way. Her way.

I am OK with all of that but I just don't want to lose my temper with my brother when he starts his dictating what is what. He was always the golden child and never left the small town pond. He also sees himself as a "Good Christen". You know the type? Judgmental and hates everyone who is not like him. Yes, he is very much like my mother, sad to say.

I just need some skills as to how not let these guys make me ever feel guilty. I am sure someone out there has had a situation where they have been treated badly and then used by family. I seem to read a lot of that on this site.

"I guess I want to do the right thing but they don't deserve it."

Very well put.

Because you are a decent person with a sense of family loyalty, you probably won't manage not to feel a little guilty at times. Probably the only thing to do about that is expect it, then ride it out when it comes along.

But seeing as you are danged if you do and danged if you don't with these people, don't. It doesn't sound like your mother will welcome your help anyway. So, don't pick every time your brother calls. Pick up, say, 1 out of 3 calls. Take your time returning his messages. Maybe at the very end you make a couple of deathbed visits (but just ONE if there is any verbal or other abuse), and that's that. Protect yourself.

Palm, And I thought my family was nuts. I agree with the others. Just b/c they say you have to take care of mom is no sign that you do. If they call and say you have to go stay with monster mom you don't have to. Just say no, don't pick up the phone when it is them calling, change your number, block their numbers, whatever. Boundaries, boundaries!! Your first priority is you. I had to learn that the hard way and so passing on the knowledge to you. Be a little selfish. You sound like a decent person. I wish you were my sib. I could give my sib over to your bad sib etc.

"doesn't want to not help my brother but I feel abused". You have been and will continue to be abused. I agree with the others, don't answer the phone, block his number, whatever you need to do. If mom needs help and since he can and is wanted to do it all, let him. He should find a facility appropriate for your mom. Is he trying to tell you you have to do this because of the cost of care? If you take care of her will there be more money for him when mom passes? Is he withholding your mom's money that she needs for care to benefit himself in the long run? Does he think that splitting care duties and POA duties is a fair split of responsibility? If so, he will find another opportunity to abuse you and it is far from an even split of responsibility. Withholding moms money that she needs for care is financial exploitation and a crime. You may want to have Adult Protective Services check in on mom. You should not go to help mom. Just ask brother where he decides to place her so you can visit when you are ready and decide you want to. Just make sure to document, document, document; communicate with brother via email is best, but if it is phone calls, you can document what was said with day, time, length of call etc. Do not go there! If you did you would open yourself up to abuse by mom and brother on a daily basis.

Gladimhere, Mom at this moment is still in control of her money and takes care of her business. It is a very strange and ugly situation based on much narcissism and hatefulness. I want to come out of this with my head high and feel good about what I do and don't do. But I have a lot of anger and know if they abuse me, I will regret it for the rest of my life.

Thank you all for the comments. I need them today.

Be careful there negative behavior can come back to bite you in the ass,
the brothers I mean, in my friends family there is one brother who distance himself,
but he is ongoing and did it for 30 years. They are 3M and 5M out of five children, 1 M made himself POA if medical, property, 2F made herself POA of financial, 3 distanced himself and 4F always went with the where the wind blew best, leaving 5 to physically care for his mother and father/RA (died of prostate cancer 12 yrs ago)mother developed dementia, 7and 1/2 years ago. They say 5 sponged off his parents, but the truth is 5 put in two new kitchens and two new baths, bought all his mothers meds and food for 5 years,(that is when 2 deposited the SS check and forgot? the rest of Moms expenses) until he went to senior abuse AND THOUGHT THE SIBLINGS WOULD BE INVESTIGATED, cut the grass shoveled the snow took her on her errands and worked besides, etc., etc,.

Where your HELP help might be appreciated, later on, is if there is ever a dispute and your Mom's care and she is actually lucky enough to have one of your siblings, keep her at home, instead of her going into a nursing home, and that person is fulfilling her wishes, for you to support the CAREGIVER should it ever go into litigation, even if you want to keep your distance, you can and trust me you are not breaking the law, but YOUR vote of support for that caregiver would be very appreciated, as we saw here, the POAs don't give a , about the caregiving, they only wanted the power, our 87 year olds home was sold and we are all together in an apartment trying to figure out how we got here. We did all the right things, reported the financial abuse and could not stop them, but at least we were able to keep her(87 year old with dementia and senior anorexia) from staying in a nursing home(where in 11 weeks she dropped 15 lbs.).

We were hoping to get the support of the brother who kept his distance, but his distance hurt us in court, no one was asking him to caregive and he had nothing to lose...just saying...

What is your responsibility? Gosh, an easy question on AC for once! - the answer is: None At All.

But I don't think that's the whole story for you, is it? There are more threads to it. Why not try separating them out - personally I'm a great user of mind maps for this kind of tangled issue - so that you can see more clearly what's worrying you.

E.g.

1. Your mother needs help. Sure! That's what your brother's so good at, isn't it? - lucky old mum.
2. Do you feel you still have some kind of vestigial debt to pay? Doesn't sound like it to me, but that doesn't mean you don't feel an obligation - people do, for all kinds of reasons. Examine it. See if it's based in anything real. If it is, post again and see what people think you might do about it. If it isn't, then that's easy too: you owe nothing.
3. Conversations in the future with your brother. There are a few things you need to practise - act them out, if you like; you could even get a friend to role play with you.
a) "Breathing" (this really works, btw - used it last weekend and didn't even see red!) - let the speaker rant on while you listen to your own heartbeat and concentrate on breathing normally. You will find that you can speak in your normal voice and will get much less agitated and stressed.
b) "Hanging up." This is where, the moment you feel that you are being spoken to in a way that makes you uncomfortable, you put down the receiver.
c) "Hanging up (advanced)." This is where, as above, you say 'calm down, or I will end this conversation' - and if brother doesn't calm down, you put down the receiver.
d) "Annotating." Keep a jotter and pen by your phone. Note down what your brother is saying. The act of concentrating on the notes will help you detach from the sensations of being personally insulted - it'll be as if he's speaking about somebody else. It also means you can take your time about rebutting his accusations, so you won't need to interrupt him, so it won't escalate instantly into a shouting/crying match.
e)"Taking control." Speak in a tone that is neutral, using simple instructions. E.g. "don't tell me what to do, please." "I decide what my obligations are, thank you." "Please speak more evenly, I can't understand you when you try to hector me." etc. The pleases and thank yous are important - they're not there to pacify your brother; being well-mannered will make you feel better.
f)"Asserting without arguing." Some useful phrases might include: "I don't agree."
"That is untrue." And, of course, the ever-versatile: "No." Which we're all still incredibly bad at saying!
g)"Taking power." Your brother will at some stage hang up on you. Ring him back immediately unless it wasn't a conversation of any value. Remember, you have nothing to fear. If you get the answering machine, leave a message saying "We need to finish our discussion. Call me back, please." The ball is then in his court and you leave it. I'll let you know what happens after that when I find out..!

These are only a few suggestions. None is as simple as changing your telephone number, but they do avoid the feeling of having had to run away like a frightened child. You're the sane adult in this scenario. You want to make THEM go away, if you can.
4. You say you don't want not to help your brother, because you are a nice person. I don't doubt that you are a nice person - you haven't firebombed the pair of them, for one thing. What sort of thing would you like to do to help? Is there anything you can think of that won't simply open the door to more abuse?
5. Imagine the worst. What is the worst thing that could happen? When you consider your various options, think through where they lead to. Sounds to me as if the worst that could happen is that your brother strong arms you into frequent, close contact with your mother: you will end up feeling bullied, resentful and weak; and it will affect every single aspect of your future life. What's the worst thing that could happen, by contrast, if they blow a massive fuse and cast you off forever? I'm guessing regret: but they have already given you so much to regret - and NONE of it your fault - about your relationship with them; wouldn't it be quite a good thing if a line was drawn under it, actually?

You help your family on your own terms, as you think right, or not at all. I normally try to see all sides and not be harsh about people I don't know, but your brother's already got right up my nose - I can't stand bullies. As for your mother, if you choose to help her, let it be because she is an old human being who needs help, and not because of any long-dead filial duty somebody says you owe her. It is perverse to behave like a loving daughter to a woman who was a hateful mother.

Chin up, indeed. You've every right to feel good about yourself. Keep us posted x

I have a step-mother who is distant. When my father died, I made sure he already had a Will leaving everything to her. I ran his corporation for another year. The business paid for his funeral, paid for her utilities and I finally closed it a year later. I send her a card at Christmas with flowers and leave it at that.

I would remain "out of the loop."

Palm. Funny you mention your brother who is the favourite because he stayed in the small town ect.
I left home at age 14.
My sister stayed behind in the same small town, but she got married at 15. We both had to get away from my mom.

So, I left and never asked a thing from my mother, and just stayed out of everyones hair for thirty years,

In the meantime my sister had babies, my mother spent a lot of time helping raise them and bought my sister houses and cars or whatever. Which is lovely and fine.
HOWEVER, when my mother needed taking care if my sister claimed that she had been looking after my mother all these years and it was now my turn. LOL.

You sound somewhat young in age to me, (i could be wrong)... but really if you have been making your own way, while bro has stayed behind getting what he could until mum had nothing left, then I don't see how it is your duty. AT ALL.

Unless you are just one of the crazy ones, that does it anyway just because...

All of your comments have made me stop and think. Why do I stick around for this treatment? All love has been extinguished. Loyalty is non existent. I could never depend on either one of these guys if I needed help (I know this from past behavior). So what am I losing. Maybe an inheritance (mom has almost one million in the bank) but then again, nursing care could get a lot of that. Or as I suspect, my brother is already inheriting it all.

I guess you guys are right. Forget these people.

Isn't all this advice to avoid helping when the time comes, making palmtrees1 the sibling we all hate. The one you finds reasons not to help, because it might be unpleasant, inconvenient or emotionally draining.

Your mom is 83, healthy, why not try to fix your relationship with your Mom. It sounds like you love her. You have a dysfunctional family dynamic. Welcome to the club. Helping with her care is a problem in the future. She might prefer assisted living, or die suddenly, but you have right now to get the love and validation we all need from our parents. Good luck

Kathy1 interesting perspective..

Kathy1, thank you for you opinion. Your are well meaning but unfortunately off the mark. If I were looking for reasons to not be part of my mother's life, I would not have asked what to do when I am being left out of the loop, or did you not read that. This is just what I do not want to happen. Have people judge me as being the "sibling we love to hate".

Thanks for making me feel so much better............

Palm and Kathy-
The difference I think is that now mom's care is at a critical point and something needs to be done according to brother. He is asking her to take on 100% of the care responsibility for a person she has no relationship with and has "been left out of the loop for years". This is quite different than what is happening in my case. Siblings have had and continue to have a relationship with mom when it is convenient for them and it suits their purposes. I have asked for help, they have refused, and so be it and they live within 10 miles of mom. Why would someone give up their life to enter a close dysfunctional relationship. Maybe her brother will hate her, but that does not sound as if it is a change from the way it has been for years. Palm's boundaries have been established over the course of many years and giving in to this request, would tear those down in no time. We need to take care of ourselves, however that looks.

Personally, I don't believe there's any way to "fix" the relationship with mom or bro. Even if they seemed to go along with it, Palm would be sucked back in as her family seem to be users. If her description is accurate, she is a giver and they are takers, and that's not going to change because they don't have any intrinsic insight into their own behavior.

That said, Palm, I would recommend you find a way to be easy with this. No confrontations, no blow ups, but also no sign on your back saying "wipe footprints here" (a la being a doormat).

I wouldn't change my phone number, that's pretty juvenile and passive aggressive, and you don't seem like either of those to me. I would however get their email address and never, EVER answer their phone calls. Either respond to their emails or answer their voicemail telephone messages by email. Don't announce that you're going to do that, just do it. Try to minimize any inflammatory behavior. Don't even take the bait if they ask inflammatory questions. Answer calmly and sensibly as if they've asked a sensible question.

I think you may have posted this question in the first place because you have a condition I call "mirror-itis". OMGosh, what's that? Well, you see, I believe you when you say you're a good person. My experience is that good people have a tendency to do what they do because it's the right thing to do (sometimes IN SPITE of how they've been treated), because they have to look at themselves in the mirror and feel like they've done the right thing. Does this sound like you?

If so, keep in mind that you have been effectively estranged from them for the most part, and mostly by THEIR choice. They have, by intention, virtually cut you off and out. If you feel drawn, at some point, to help your mom, be sure you do it by turning the tables on them. Playing their own game, so to speak.

Tell them you will be glad to TAKE OVER AND MAKE THE DECISIONS from xx point forward. All they need do is pay for a lawyer to prepare an irrevocable trust in which you are the sole Trustee in charge and then you will take full responsibility (meaning YOU could decide to change your mind, but they can't change anything). You'll have to arrange this through an attorney but I believe they will all have to go along with you having a conservatorship, appointed by the court and not likely to be changed, except by a judge in the case that you foul up. You ought to tell them that you will not take over her care unless and until you are in charge of her finances and her person. Then, HOW you take care of her is up to you. But you will have her money to use for her care.

So often what happens in caretaking is the caretaker has all the work, no decision making power and no money with which to properly take care of the person. Even as the good person that you are, don't fall into that trap.

The ball will be in their court. If they refuse, they are choosing to take care of her themselves, the decision will have been made and you are under no further obligation.

Kathy1, I did not mean to sound harsh but I have tried for years to fix my relationship with my mother only to have her tell lies to all my family members and try to discredit me as being untrustworthy and not a good person. Why? Who knows. She told everyone Dad was an alcoholic after he died, he was no such thing. She told me her Dad sexually abused her. First I ever heard of that too. She lied to my brother telling him I asked for money, to feed my kids, 25 years ago. My husband and I are financially in very good shape. She is an attention seeking, spoiled brat with a personality disorder. She is very, very difficult and I am very very frustrated with her. My brother also acknowledges all of the things I have said about her.

So try and have a "close relationship" with that. It is tough. And often I do wonder how many people don't help with parents because of the past. You know, we often reap what we sow, but that works both ways.

When mom lied about my trustworthiness, I told my brother all she needed to do was explain why and give me an apology and we could start over. She said, and I am quoting, "I am sorry and I don't ever want to hear another word about it" in a very nasty tone. No real apology. You see narcissistic people are never wrong, never apologize and always have to win.

Damn if you do, damned if you don't. That is me.

Palmtrees, that's an interesting perspective on your brother's attitude to yourself and your mother. It sounds as if he thinks you ought, somehow, to be able to laugh at and shrug off her attitude, would you agree? Phewf.

This is one ball game you don't have to play in, or sit and watch on the bench. The best thing is to work on yourself, your own needs and issues and let them reap what they have sown. In my humble opinion that is. Old Irish saying, the wheel turns slowly but it does turn.

Countrymouse, that hits the nail on the head. That is even what he has said to me, however, if the shoe was on the other foot, all hell would break loose. As my brother told me once recently, "You haven't seen me mad". And that is from a 59 year old man.

You know why we don't talk? Mom was whining to me and complaining about how she couldn't get "nobody" to fix this and fix that and take care of this and that. I told her my brother would be glad to help her, she should call on him when she needs something. He has made this statement to me. I told her to trust in him, he is an honorable man. And here is where I made a mistake. I told her she should make him her medical POA, she may need someone if she ever has a medical emergency. She got pissed at me and told me she didn't know what she had because my brother and the lawyer who drew up her POA didn't explain it to her. I told her to read her copies of the POA and she said she didn't have a copy. So I dropped it. I later called my brother to ask if she were telling me a big windy lie (an she was) but he blew up at me (I am assuming she immediately called him to complain), I couldn't get a word in edgewise. He told me "I am in charge, I have the POA and that is the way mom wants it. It is none of your business". Then when I told him he was not to talk to me that way he hung up on me. The funny thing is, he had planned a trip to Florida to visit me the next week, the first time in 10 years. He calls me a few days later and sheepishly asks if we are still on for the trip. I said, "No". He slammed down the phone and I haven't heard from him in 10 months. My husband told me, you don't owe him an apology, he owes you one.

Now if he had been treated like I have, his head would have exploded. Much puffery going on in his mind.

Oh, lovely, conceited as well! I'm warming to your brother more and more (sorry, sarcasm bad English habit I know…).

Now then. I don't want to tread on any sore toes here, so I need to be careful. My son and my younger daughter have this kind of needle between them. It pains me to say it (and I blame his father, obviously!) but my darling boy is a bit, um, robust in character, and it goes down very badly with my little girl (they're actually 29 and 26). Not long ago, a few months, they had a screaming row in his house - your mentioning the planned trip to Florida reminded me about this. It was awful: she was on the phone to me sobbing; he maintained a dignified (pompous boy!) silence that stretched into weeks. And about what? About a sandwich.

Now, I am not saying for one moment that you have anything out of proportion, not at all. What I'm trying to get to, is my observation that there are some relationships that seemingly are just NEVER going to come right, in spite of the best intentions of both sides. What I found really sad about my children's dispute was not that it was silly, but that I could see why each of them had reacted as they had. My son, who ended up - I know you'll believe this - trying to bully my daughter into liking a sandwich that she didn't want…

Can you imagine how bonkers I feel even typing that? Anyway.

… had started the day intending to make sure everyone he'd invited over had a lovely time. His new wife was out with friends, so all by himself he did the shopping, arranged the furniture, and invited his father, sister, best friend and another buddy over to watch a match on TV. My daughter accepted the invitation because she thought she'd been keeping too distant for too long from her brother, and that it would be lovely for her dad to see them getting along. And I'm sure it would have been, sigh…

My son was hurt that she didn't like the food he'd prepared. My daughter couldn't believe that he couldn't just let her make her own choice. They were very quickly yelling blue murder at each other in the kitchen (if my DIL had been there, this would have been nipped in the bud early on) and then daughter ran from the house and son had to be restrained by his best friend from chasing after and rugby tackling her in the street…

Not their finest hour.

The thing is, that I'm wondering if somewhere in there is a brother who loves you very much but is - let me remember how the best friend put it? Oh yes - "mate, you're being a tit." The best friend, by the way, was at the time my older daughter's boyfriend, so I heard the whole story from his POV via my older daughter. Dad, in case anybody's wondering, empathises with son but is scared stiff of upsetting daughter and has never been able to connect with her (I expect he hid in the bathroom).

The big difference for you, of course, is that your mother is the problem you're both trying to solve; and a very destructive problem she is too. You have no mediators to help you.

Looking far ahead, and imagining freely, how would you like things to be between your brother and you when your mother's no longer around?

You can let things lie. Nobody knows, let alone controls, what is going to happen: you can just let the situation go, let what will be, be.

You can take your own steps towards the kind of relationship you would like to have with your brother, in some hypothetical future, independently of dealing with him now. Counselling springs to mind, or any of the many methods of self-realisation, self-awareness, assertiveness training, etc etc - take your pick.

The thing is, you've tried being nice. You've tried being respectful. You've seen his point of view and tiptoed around him. You've been reasonable and constructive and all the right things… And then the moment he senses the slightest suggestion (which you didn't even make) that you don't have complete, blind and automatic faith in his doing everything perfectly - WHOOSH! He's towering over you, flexing his biceps.

But then he called you about the trip. He wanted - expected? even? - you to say "gurn, yeah, what was that all about! Aren't we a pair, eh?! Of COURSE we're on for the visit, can't wait…" But guess what, you were still sore and not about to get over it just like that. And your husband is dead right, he does owe you an apology. He was unreasonable, he was offensive, he rings you like nothing's happened, and then he flies off the handle when you don't instantly forgive him.

I do not know, and oh I would love to know, how you get your brother/my son to understand that you/my daughter are ENTITLED to respect and consideration, as well as love, and that unless/until you get them you cannot accept or even recognise the love. To understand, and consistently to act on that understanding.

The question for you is, do you care enough to keep working on it? Is it worth it? I can't answer that; but more importantly you don't have to make a final decision on it, certainly not now, maybe not ever. What do you think? I'd be really interested to hear your perspective.

People who truly care about you might say you're a sucker for punishment. But any way you slice it the painful reality is that there will always be a place for them in your heart. Even though late at night you might rant & rave about their abuse, pretend they don't exist as a New Year's resolution, and sometimes pray for a blood transfusion so you can get them completely out of your system.

Of course that's not going to happen so try to stay out of that toxic loop. Avoid reaching out if you know it's going to erode your self-respect. You surely don't need to make downpayments for their acceptance.

Time doesn't heal all wounds. Some are so deep there's no other choice but learn to live with them. Your brother will definitely will dump Mom on you when her health begins to falter and she finally learns what humility is.

My son was the favored stay behind son, they all knew it and took advantage of it, when he remodeled the kitchens and bathrooms (he remodels for living) they changed the wording on something to say if someone contests the will...they do not get anything...but he was bit suppose to get the money unless it was at distribution time but they changed everything and sold everything, so God willing when we are through we know we can go to bed at night because we did the best we could do.

Sometimes even knowing you are doing "the right thing" doesn't feel good when you know there are other siblings who could be doing something but aren't and just have there hands out!

I meant my friend... it is her baby son...oops!

We never know what sets peoples thinking off..I recently found out why my family is dysfunctional...it has something to do with pretend...
My younger sibling was too young to remember my father, when my parents divorced
I have been listening to stuff for years....she's been saying stuff for years...

When it is something that goes on for years and I mean decades,
my mother did more to let the family know, she made a mistake in choice of husbands, my father, shes been talking about him for 50 years...talk about holding a grudge...

If your brother thinks he can boss you around and expect you to take care of your Mom he has got to be kidding let it go walk away for the time being then eventually go for a visit they can set something up for care giving for your Mom if they don't trust you then why have you be the caregiver keep your self respect they are not well seriously. Hug's to you don't loose your temper that's what he wants believe me my sister is the same it's them not you with the issues!

Wow, this has made me feel like I am an ok person. We all have dysfunction in our lives. As I put it, my sister took the fun out of dysfunction. That was said with well meaning intentions. She is the POA, and will not talk to me the daughter that did everything in 2010-2011-2012-2013. . .2014 I have decided to take back control of me and yes boundaries boundaries boundaries. they got this way, and realized early on that I would do it, ask D. she is a sucker. I love my mother and I show up on my time, and I provide the love and nurturing she needs, she is in an assisted living facility, and they love me there, and appreciate that I am the only one that shows up.

Palm, reading between the lines of your posts, it sounds as though your mother may be developing dementia and your brother may be realizing that there is some really heavy lifting to be done in the future. Which may be why he was planning to visit you. It seems like your mother has planted the seeds of the bush that keep you and your brother at each other's throats. No suggestions, just an alternative way of viewing this situation.