Aunts controlling grandma because they have POA. My grandmother has recently been having episodes of not remembering where she lives and being really irritable. These episodes last all but 10 minutes then she is fine. My grandfather passed 10 years ago of cancer and the only times my grandmother has these episodes is when the anniversary of his death approaches. Which happened to be 3 weeks ago. My two horrible aunts now based on two freak out episodes have self declared her "crazy"! My younger sister lives with her and has been for the last 3 years. My aunt wants to force her out of her room keep in mind there are other rooms in the home she could move into but she wants hers. Her reasoning is she has power of attorney over my grandmother and can legally kick her out of her room. And if my sister refused both my aunts have threatened to have her ordered mentally incompetent and put her in a nursing home. Can they do this? My grandmother aside from her "2" episodes is perfectly fine she can cook clean maintain her garden. Knows all her grandkids. My aunts are jealous because my grandmother favors her grandkids but we have always been there for her and aren't interested in her money or home we just want what is best for her! Is it wise to go behind their backs and seek legal advice and take her to the doctor ourselves and see what they have to say? Can my grandmother appoint one of her grandchildren her power of attorney? I love my grandmother her money means nothing! Please help!
Where the familial relationship comes into play legally is if the person dies intestate. Then state law holds, and specifies the family relations which are considered to be heirs.
I have no idea why one granddaughter is living in the spare room, or why a daughter thinks she should be. But there is nothing inherently wrong with either or both of them being there IF IT IS WHAT GMA WANTS.
I no I sound like an old-fashioned broken record (anyone remember those?), but if GMA is still competent, SHE is in charge of making decisions, and one decision she could make and easily execute is to make someone else POA.
I think you're right that American's wouldn't tolerate the OPG's powers. I myself would be uncomfortable, especially since over the years I've lost confidence in the government's problem solving abilities.
Given that some folks in certain areas of the US don't even want the Federal government to "meddle" in their lives, I think there would be some really strong resistance to federal involvement in medical and financial caregiving proxy issues.
I don't think Americans would put up with the OPG's extensive powers, not for a moment. They're not often used - you have to be seriously incompetent or actually criminal - but if you make a real hash of POA (and it comes to their attention, which is a-whole-nother story) they can boot you out and take over. And charge for it. But they're even slower to act than they are to answer the dam' phone (tap tap tap snore...)
I do remember corresponding with an English woman who loved gardening, and in the course of the correspondence she wrote that she worked in a department that provided for assistive device retrofitting. I got the impression that adding grab bars and basic things like that were done through a government social service division.
Wow, I am really shocked at the provision for objection to a POA! I immediately thought of how contentious that process could become, but as you wrote I suspect the grounds are valid and not frivolous ones.
As to refusal to act, that's an interesting query. While working for EP law firms, I do recall an instance in which a trustee declined to act after the settlor died; letters were prepared to the heirs and beneficiaries advising of the trustee's abdication. Perhaps he or she realized how contentious it could become if there were feuding siblings??
Your point of a leaflet with critical information is well taken. From the posts on this forum, it's pretty clear that there are different views on the purposes of proxies as well as the limitations. Elder law firms do publish various articles which are handed out at Area Agency on Aging Caregiving Expos, but in part that's a business solicitation tactic.
I don't have any information on whether the US State Social Services Departments get involved in POAs at all. That's an interesting question. From my experience, their focus is more on the care aspect, what organizations and resources are available, etc. They may mention the EP documents as a general recommendation to have them but I don't think they would get involved.
I'm also not sure there are any US government sources with suggested forms, although I haven't checked. And in some areas of the US the government is so suspect that I think a lot of people wouldn't consider using the forms anyway!
Carla, that's interesting - I wasn't aware of the need to record a POA on sale of real estate. The only times I've used my authority were when my father was medically unable to make decisions. It wasn't a dementia issue; it was a pulmonary issue that required an induced coma.
The "people to be told" would be, yes, interested parties; but not necessarily interested on their own account - they could be people you trust just to keep an eye on things for you. Here you don't *have* to name any, but it's part of the process that you're prompted to think about whether you want to, and whom you might want to be given a heads-up, and it is recommended. It's a further step in the checks and balances, aimed at avoiding abuse of POA if a person has unfortunately chosen an appointee who turns out to be unworthy of that degree of trust. When my mother's Durable (called Enduring in the olden days over here, now Lasting) POA was registered, my brother and I both got letters from the OPG informing us that an application had been made and giving us six weeks to object, along with a list of reasons that would be considered valid grounds for objection which were pretty tightly defined. For example, you could object to the person being appointed if there were substantiated reasons to believe they were not fit for the task (convicted embezzler), but not just because you didn't personally think much of them ("he couldn't organise an orgy in a brothel..!"); or if you didn't agree that the person giving POA was losing capacity, as would seem to be the point with our OP here.
It was a point of some irritation to me that my mother didn't nominate a proxy, and moreover made my siblings joint POA; so that if God forbid anything had happened to either of them the whole instrument would have failed and we'd all have been right up a gum tree. Her legal advisor is someone I know very well and am fond of; but I wish she'd been a bit less polite and a lot less indulgent of my mother's sentimental impracticality. Not that I can blame her for failing to concentrate my mother's mind on the business in hand - which of us can say we ever managed that when she didn't wish her mind to be concentrated?
I skipped the bit about needing the consent of the person nominated to exercise POA because in this case there's if anything a surplus of volunteers! - but you have made me wonder idly how many people, especially loving children, actually find the gumption to say "not on your life!" when they're asked. I wish my brother had, because he clearly found the whole thing hugely burdensome and was a pain in the nether for my sister, with whom he shared it, to deal with; but I suppose it takes either a hard-nosed or an exceptionally blithe person to turn round and tell their parent they can't be doing with it and she'll have to ask someone else.
We need some sort of health warning leaflet to be required reading for all concerned. So many people seem to drift into either giving or accepting POA without fully grasping what's involved, and I'm never sure whether it's because they were given poor advice, or they weren't paying attention to perfectly good advice, or they didn't like to say no and crossed their fingers they'd never need to worry about it. Mind you, I have latterly discovered that since 2005 in the UK you actually have to put quite some effort into ignoring the warnings: although you can still arrange POA in any way you please, by far the most straightforward is to download the government's forms and fill them in; and if you do that, and follow the instructions, and run round the houses getting signatures witnessed and your GP's endorsement and all the rest of it, I'm at a loss as to how you can then cling to the belief that it's no big deal. Wouldn't each State's social services division also offer a similar service?
We would also refer to such a process as recordation, generally with a county clerk. I think the terminology is similar - I'm just wondering about the process you describe.
I've also had advice from another top attorney in the field and she too never mentioned having to record a POA.
You also addressed a process by which people are informed of the POA:
"there will normally be a period during which the nominated people must be informed of it, may request sight of the relevant documents, and will have the opportunity to raise any caveats or objections."
I'm not sure if you're referring to interested parties or someone nominated to hold the proxy. If the latter, in my experience that person (or persons) must agree to accept the responsibility before the POA is executed.
In fact, we signed an acknowledgement agreeing to accept the duties as well as carry them out in accordance with the maker's wishes.
Just wanted to make sure I understood your viewpoint.
As I recall you're in the UK, or I believe someplace other than the USA? I'm thinking standards and requirements might be different there?
1. Nobody has a right to see your grandmother's will until - may she live forever - she passes away, at which point it becomes a public document that anybody may ask to see. Your grandmother may choose to show it to whomever she pleases, but as long as she lives nobody has any business demanding to see it.
2. The POA document is a different thing altogether. The general process with any sort of enduring, durable or lasting power of attorney - i.e. the kind that comes into force once the person giving that power has lost the capacity to act on his or her own - is that a) the person, while fit and well, draws up the documentation which then sits tight in a drawer somewhere; b) once the person begins to become mentally frail, the POA must then be registered with a court or other supervising authority; c) the person can then no longer act on his own except in restricted, highly scrutinised circumstances, but his wishes as far as he can express them must still be taken into account by his POA.
3. It would be standard practice in drawing up the documentation to include a list of "people to be told" (e.g. siblings, children and sometimes grandchildren, but also close friends or trusted advisors) at point B: that is, as part of the registration process, there will normally be a period during which the nominated people must be informed of it, may request sight of the relevant documents, and will have the opportunity to raise any caveats or objections.
At this point, in your grandmother's case, it might be a good idea to get everybody together to review the arrangements she has made and clarify the rights and responsibilities involved. If she has a lawyer she likes and trusts, perhaps the lawyer could attend too, if only to call the meeting to order.
Medical POA in itself does not give your aunt any authority at all to decide who occupies rooms in your grandmother's house - what in heaven's name has that to do with your grandmother's medical care? But is this your aunt's family home, that she lived in while she was growing up? It is easier to negotiate a compromise if you consider the points of view of all parties involved.
By the way, if your aunt has medical POA, who's taking care of the financials?
I also wonder if your aunt is moving back into your grandmother's house under some sort of protest. Does she seem to feel that she has to, and resent having to do so? If so, or you suspect so, perhaps you might suggest to your father that he have a heart-to-heart with her and your other aunt about what they both think would really be best for your grandmother going forward; because a caregiving journey that starts badly is not likely to continue well.
It's really sad that there's so much friction when an older person has enough to deal with already.
To answer your original question, yes, if your Gram chooses someone else, it doesn't matter that the current POA is a generation closer, or older.
I don't agree that your sister should move out. She seems to be taking care of your grandmother and it sounds like your aunts don't really want to. It sounds like the aunts don't want to act on your grandmother's behalf but on their own behalf. They should be removed from the POA ASAP.
2. Power of Attorney can be changed at any time by someone of sound mind. (Why did Gram ever appoint these witches in the first place?)
3. If the house is sold, all of the money must go to Gram's care. Why would the aunts think they'd get some it? Are they co-owners?
4. Even if Gram wanted Sis out of her house, she'd have to go through an eviction process. She certainly doesn't have to move on Aunt's say-so, POA or not.
5. Get an attorney involved.
It seems to me that your aunts are creating a form of elder abuse, and I'm wondering if APS would get involved to prevent their contact and harassment?
I'm assuming your grandmother has a copy of her DPOA; ask to read it and see if it does require a determination of incompetency for the aunt to act. Or is she trying to act as proxy under a Living Will, or Health Care Proxy?
Given that the neurologist deemed your grandmother of sound mind, I would suggest that GM immediately consider revoking the DPOA and appointing a different proxy. I would also ask the neurologist for an opinion to that effect jut so you have it on hand in the event the aunt goes off further in her vendetta.
The name of the law firm or attorney who prepared the DPOA should be on the vertical side line of the pleading paper; contact them ASAP.
If your aunt tried to put your GM in a nursing home, there would be the issue of who would pay for it, including prior to any sale of the house. I would raise that issue if you decide to call APS, as essentially that would force someone deemed capable of handling her own affairs into a facility which she apparently doesn't need and compromise her financial stability.
I think you should also raise the aunt issue with the attorney who prepared the DPOA and ask for further advice, as it does seem as though the aunt is on a vendetta. It might be considered that your GM should apply for a PPO to prevent any further harassment.
For some reason I keep visualizing that movie with Bette Midler, smirking through false buck teeth, and 2 (?) other women as 3 witches, maliciously stirring a broth of who knows what while they plot nefarious activities.