How to tell mom/MIL that she MUST move out of our home and into a low income apartment near by?

BonnieW,
Hi! It has been my expierence that friend's who have moved loved ones into " nice retirement homes, assisted living, etc., " end up loving it. I know my grandmother did, but she never wanted to be a burden ( how she put it), to any of her children. She did do a great deal of manipulation with my mother's free time ( my mom worked a lot before she passed ). But, my mom never put any limitations in place; she would just come home and complain to me.
Your friend may get the help of a minister or geriatric case manager to aid in telling her that she will have to move. Let the mom know that she is loved and people will still visit and there will be all kinds of activities.
It is not an easy task, to tell anyone that they have to move, but to save your friend's sanity and relationship with mom, it has to done. After all, it is her home.
Also let her know, that mom can come over for dinners and holidays. I think most older people fear being alone all the time and people forgetting about them.
I have four cousins who never visited my grandmother, in assisted living, while she was alive and they lived in the same town. I know that hurt my grandmother terribly, but she did have my family.
Hope it helps,
Dina

Maybe the place has some open activities that the Mom could try out. Does anyone at the church or the exercise place live there? Maybe they could invite her to something or to their place for coffee or something.

"Mom, this isn't working out for us; we're going to help you move to those nice apartments over in (section of town). We'll come to visit twice a week; it'll be better for all of us. You won't be alone, you'll make friends there. I've talked to the manager and they have two apartments we can go look at tomorrow"

Some assisted living places have short stay options so that it is possible to go to try it out without committing to a permanent stay. If that is possible, your mother-in-law might have the chance to make new friends and discover that she won't be alone most of the time.

The key here (from experience with my mom) is make the MOVING part a non-choice. We offered my mom short stay options, etc. she refused them all. She quite frankly had lost a great deal of her decision making capacity at that point, but we didn't realize that. Only when we TOLD her that she was going to move did she accept the idea.

What if the MOM cannot afford assisted living or senior apartments, but living with 47 y.o. daughter and 10 y.o. son is not working out. Everyone assumes elderly have money - but many do not (because of unforseen circumstances).
Stuck in a corner.

Having gone through this several times in my family (with grandma and grandpa) a dialogue has to begin with the family and their mom. Everyone involved has to be on the same page, that this is what we're going to do and now we just have to get mom on board. My grandma was adamant about not moving until the 2nd time we approached her in another family meeting and told her that she could decorate her little apartment any way she liked. That's when she began accepting it. But it took several family meetings with my grandma and a lot of resolve on our parts. She was going to move, we just needed to figure out that magic phrase that would get her there. We didn't demand. We approached her softly and respectfully but we knew this was going to happen. We chipped away at my grandma little by little, in increments, and she finally relented.

It's not just about having to move which is stressful enough but it's giving up independence (in my grandma's mind) even though we were trying to get my grandma into an assisted living. She had preconceived notions of what assisted living was and we had to quash those so we took her on a tour.

This life change for the mom should be a process. Baby steps. Don't overwhelm her. Plan the family meeting and decide what little goal is to be accomplished at the first meeting. Then leave it alone for a while, let the idea sit with her and approach her again. We all knew my grandma WAS going into AL even though my grandma wasn't aware of it but we had to treat her with respect and appreciate the implications of what we were suggesting, how upsetting it would be for her.

We convinced her after about a month-and-a-half. After she got moved and things settled down she was very happy in her apartment.

I agree with Eyerishlass... dialogue is so important. There is a level of fear in the elderly that they are not so eager to talk about but it exists for various reasons. My mother could no longer live alone and we moved her to assisted living and unfortunately for her, through unforseen events, she is now in Long Term care. It takes a while for some seniors to settle in and find their niche' but just being a source of encouragement for her is important, they are easily overwhelmed and those feelings can easily be turned into negative attitudes. The important thing is be consistant, stay positive no matter what, and encourage - encourage - encourage.

First, I know you meant well, but please don't every say... I told you so. That's not helpful and can hurt an already hurt person.

The thing that works for me and my family in many situations is to 'set the expectations'. What ever is happening that is good and not good, should be addressed. Your neighbor should list the things she wants to address and construct a conversation with MIL and her husband where they address those things.

Some of the MOST challenging and emotional things in my life have been addressed simply by approaching the situation by setting expectations. For example, at my son's encouragement, I approached my sister... who had for my entire life, been nasty. I told her that we were about to journey through a very emotional process and I am committed to being kind and loving. My sister immediately apologized to me for things that she has done, because her emotions go the best of her. I didn't even think she knew she acted badly and then she committed to being kind and loving. It's working.

Think about how the MIL must feel, even though we can't fathom it. She may be very scared. I for one have no idea what it must feel like to be alone at that age. Her behaviors may be based on huge fear and discomfort. With a clear discussion of the two settings, both the home and the independent living situation, perhaps the MIL could decide to step up, when given the clear chance to participate in the discussion.

Sometimes I think we hope when we are that age that people will treat us kindly and will include us in a rational discussion, but I have NO idea how scared and emotional I will be at that time of life. I hope people in my family will give me a chance to pull myself together and to try to be nice after I have failed to be nice, because of my fear and nutty feelings.

What are the things she can bring to the family? Tell your friend to think about it and.. say what she will do ... then ask for what she wants. Kindly and clearly.

Tell your friend to be kind and be clear. Don't be vague about what she is willing to do and what she expects, but be kind... she should say it with a kind and caring smile and show concern without offering to give up on her own life and family.

I tried all of that with my Mother-in-Law when she was 76 to no avail. She was determined to move in here with her only son, my husband, right after his kidney transplant. She was oblivious to how sick he was. She was only 4 years older than he is now and claimed she would be dead any day now. If only! She is now going to be 98 and is a total time suck and energy drain. She wouldn't go to any outside activities; she wouldn't let us take her to visit friends or have them over. My husband drank the Kool-Aid that he was the only one who could make her happy. This is not her choice. It is yours. She will not go easily and she won't go at all if you don't make her.

First of all, I would prefer talking with the daughter whose life this actually impacts. You are not a friend when you said, "I told you so!" Even though someone may object to going to live somewhere else, the owner of the rental lease has the right to prohibit someone from living with them. Just have her get an apartment, move mom in, and let her make other friends. Each of us has a right to live in an environment where we can relax and choose with whom we live.

Oh, ferris, please, this woman said they have known each other for years-why not assume that they are close enough to tease each other with a smiling "I told you so" instead of assuming that it was meant as a hurtful thing?

Your friend can tell her mom that she has to move out of the friend's home, but I don't think she can tell her where she has to move to. She can say she has found a very nice option, and encourage Mom to consider it. But the only real control Friend has is over her own home.

Has Friend checked into the subsidized housing sufficiently to know there is an apartment available or coming available soon? Around here the wait list approaches a year. That might make a difference in how this transition is handled.

How should she tell Mom? Well, English is always a good choice, unless they both are more comfortable in another language. Sorry if that sounded smart-ass, but I the a simple straight-forward approach might be best in this case. "This isn't working out. I don't the fact that we are crowded together here to ruin our relationship. I love you and want to continue to get along well with you. For that I think we each need our own space. We'll help you find something suitable that you can afford and that is close enough so we can help you out. But we each need our independence."

The Mom is relatively young here. She may live another couple of decades. It is best to start now to maximize the quality of that time. I'm sure that was what the first move was all about, but since that didn't work out, another attempt must be made.

Thank you all so very much!
And really, the daughter, K and I have been buddies for years and discussed this issue of her mom coming here long before the step-dad died. We live in a small 4 home cul de sac (well, not small as it is 6 acres) so we are well aquainted. And to be blunt, K's husband is a big baby and demands all of her attention or he mopes and whines. See, I knew Widow Mom would twerk the sil and K and I laughed about it a great deal. she was wondering which one to live with as she knew it would not work out as a family of 5. (she was actually considering divorce back then but now things are better between them as they are siding together against E.)
Anyway, the I told you so was not really in those words, it was more like listening to both K and her mom complain to me about how it just was not working out there. The senior apartments are easily less than 1/2 mile from here and beautiful, just a short and nice walk to the community center where all kinds of things go on all of the time. That is where we do the 3xs week exercise. So this morning, I asked if anyone in the class knew of folks living in the apartments...sure enough, one of the ladies said she did and would love to invite E over for coffee and a tour next Tuesday after class. Great!
E is engaging and fun to be with. However, K says they are getting more and more resentful at home. Ykes.
E thinks daughter just does what hubby says to keep him from being a pill and now says daughter (K) is grumpy and unhappy. These folks clearly need to live in separate quarters!
A problem...E doesn't have enough money coming in to qualify for these apartments. the one bedroom starts at $795. And the management is pretty strict about standards. This is independent living so it is very much like a regular apartment.
In talking with my friend, money came up as that is a hot topic for E..her Flordia house was "underwater" and she had to sell it way below what she owed, so it was a cut in her savings to pay off the Promisory Note.
What surprises me is friend and sil have a $1,000,000. house which is paid for, and he (the grouchy man) has a great full time job at a high tech company here. they really could afford to help E out fiancially.
The next odd thing is K has started talking about how her mom was really never "there for her" when she was young and now expects K to really take care of her! Well....my "core" was pretty tight as I thought how selfish and that surprised me. So again flat out said, you are going to have to suck it up and pay what you have to for your mom.
From what I learned from the other lady at the exercise class today, the son in law /daughter will have to sign on the lease for the amount of money needed for her to be accepted. These are the nearest apartments and by far the least expensive within our city boundaries.
When E first came here for a "trial visit" after her husband died, daughter and family were so encouraging for her to sell house and move here. And I know they really pushed her to decide. Well, she is here and it is not reasonable to think gosh, we aren't all that happy, blah blah blah...
One bit of good news, there are a few men at our exercise class and they asked after E today. (she is off on a scrapbooking weekend trip with daughter).
I'm so hoping she and Chuck get together.
and...at her own apartment!

Also, have been encouraging E to get a job and/or volunteer so she can start to build a new social circle. She's pretty, smart and well educated so easy to be around.
I've been her "friend" doing things like church, community center, drivers license, car tags, library...movies...things like that but I am ready for her to meet some additional folks to enjoy. However, she still seems to be clingy and needy. She finishes the Grief group next Tuesday night. All coming together here.

A specific time for the discussion on "Mom, you are moving out by June 1st" is Monday evening. Class is Tuesday morning. Any suggestions?

Needless to say, I will turn to you all for additional suggestions on how I can help her. It will be loads of tears and begging, K says. So sad!
Thanks so much, I really appreciate it all.
Bonnie

I cannot believe this. We have a 72 year old woman who has just lost her husband of many decades and has moved from Florida where she was familiar with everything to Seattle where she knows no one but family. She has never lived alone, is grieving for her husband and for the friends she left behind, is in a new city thousands of miles from where she lived, is scared to live alone and worries about her health and all you can think of is how to shove her out the door? People like this make me sick. I am glad those children are watching because what goes around will come back around and one day when mom/mil is long dead, look whose kids will have been taught no mercy or compassion. You know what? I wish we lived in Seattle. We'd take her in ourselves and not bother to tell her ungrateful family when she died.

terrim, did you happen to notice the nature of the question? It isn't "what do you think of my neighbor?" or "Should my neighbor keep her mother with her?" It is "My neighbor has decided not to continue having her mother live with her. How can she best accomplish this?"

Dear Terrim, You and I share several caregiving issues but I think you are forgetting that the caregiver being asked to take care of this mother may have even more problems than the mother. And the person wanting move in often ignores that terrible stress and strain the caregiver is already under and doesn't consider that each of us can only do so much. I had a son stabbed with an ice pick in a third world country where he went to help recover bodies from mass graves and a daughter with a pulmonary embolism at age 36 in CCU for weeks and a husband with 12 surgeries in 7 years for cancer and then a kidney transplant plus a devastating car accident that nearly crippled me and STILL my mother-in-law demanded to live with us and came in with her depression to add to mine. I was supposed to make HER happy. I had no resilience left and each day was/is still a horrible struggle (oh yes, I forgot to add my Dad was dying of prostate cancer, my stepmother was nearly paralyzed and her husband had recently died of dementia who I had also taken care of. But I was supposed to take her in when all I asked her for was one year to get back on my feet after the kidney transplant but NOOOOOO, She called me evil and lacking in character I was a sucker to give in. That's what her victory represents to me.

Terrim and FedUpNow...You both make wonderful points about my neighbors. FUN (is that FedUpNow?) the only thing wrong with my neighbor K and family is the jerky husband. They overly indulge the two boys. It is most difficult for me to see K bow down to her husband and really getting resentful toward her mom. I wish I could get her to look at this site and see what the real caregivers are going through. K is acting like "Mom, get over it"...
And yes, Terrim, I have considered taking her in but don't see that as a good solution right now (my Mom is 94 and recovering from a broken hip so I'm rather "on call" and E. wouldn't want to stay with my husband alone in our house while I'm back in Maryland).
How about this as an example of the place E has in the family dynamic.

when planning the move from Fla to Seattle, K and family invited E to go to Hawaii w/them for the Spring school break. wonderful, E thinks!
Well, SIL, K and the two 10 yr old boys fly first class. E has to buy her own ticket and because they want her on the same flights, the ticket is over $1000 and in the rear of the plane.
As they then needed a larger car due to her extra luggage, she had to pay for the upgrade and extra gas in Hawaii.
that was just the beginning. they charged her for the larger condo (2 bedrooms) where she slept on the fold out couch. It goes on and on but I'll just end with the fact that not a single cup of coffee was given to her.
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and remember, she is panicing over money.
The family has also made summer plans which do not include her.
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I am most shocked at my friend K, the daughter. But what can I do except tell her "you have to suck it up and kick in $$ for your Mom's rent if you don't want her living at your home" after you invited her here.
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And, I would not want to live with that family! Although I did not know the depth of dislike on the part of the SIL, nor the insulting use/non-use of money for her comfort...I still didn't think living with them would be a good idea. Now I know for sure!

E has had so much loss as Terrim pointed out. I really feel for her. But as others have pointed out, it is not my decision for E to move but her daughter and family.
When I read about what others have done to provide care for their family members, it really makes me want to give all caregivers hugs. Particularly to those who don't want to do the job and/or to those who have no choice but to do the caregiving.
And Terrim, those twins are spoiled rotten. E's hopes that she'd be the grandmother that would be involved in their lives has turned disasterous. They are basically rude to her.
1 more example...SIL and daughter love live theatre. They "invited" E to go to see Les Miz or something at $100 a ticket. They bought the best seats for themselves and E was up in the cheap seats. I would NEVER do that to my mom or mil...on top of which, she had to pay for her ticket.
And these people are upper level income, over $300,000 a year.
Anyway, back to how do I help E with the news that she is being kicked out and encourage her in the new apartments?
Bonnie

Bonnie, I think it's best to think of E and what's best for her. If you can find time to sit and talk with her privately, maybe invite her for "tea". What you just told us - the Hawaii, the theater, etc... Mention all these to her. Just as you told us about her recent loss and the Resultant condition of being "on a tight budget" until she can get back on her 2 feet - please tell this to her gently and with compassion. Then mention the example of the expense of Hawaii and the theater eating into her budget. Ask if it would help if she moved out on her own at a place that caters to "retired" people (or whatever that would NOT insult her.) She would still be close to family but have her own independence. Etc...

Before you talk to her, maybe sit down and do an outline. The title of your outline is the title of this discussion. Introduction - is what you stated just before my comment. Body - is all the reasons Why She Would Benefit if she Lived Independently. Below Reasons - use examples. Conclusion - everyone will be happy. And she won't have to spend soooo much money for extravagances, etc...but most importantly - Independence. I'm sure you can find a way to make independence sound much better than living next door.

I feel so sorry for her. When you take her to outings, make sure to make yourself difficult to find. It may force her to associate with others until you come back. Just as a child would cling so hard to your skirts in strange places, you will need to do the same with E. Hopefully when she gets comfortable with seeing the same people, and with you doing your disappearing act - she might make friends and not be so clingy to you.

Of course, all I said may not work if you're not suppose to know all those family dynamics of next door. You're back to square one....

Karen, I just left a phone message for E. asking if she wants to go to a program "Birds of Paradise..." a National Geographic funded program in Seattle tonight at 7:30. Then started reading emails, her daughter K. said they had their "talk" last night and gave E options, stay here, go to Vt. to live with sister, or back to FL to live (? with whom???)
K. said the talk went fairly well and that her mom did hold it together but was obviously upset. (Scared, I'd say)
She (E) will make her choice of where to live.
K also said she had not seen her mother yet this morning and asked if I'd call her to "cheer her up"
Geez.
No mention of the big problem, money! so I don't know if E is sitting there worried to death about how she is going to make any choice possible.
I feel so bad for her!
If her daughter (K) and husband do not offer some financial support, I'm not sure I can really stay friends with them or at least not as close as we were.

I'm actually ready to cry.
Bonnie

Do you think I should just ask daughter, K what financial options did they offer?
If they aren't offering to subsidize the rent at the apartments here, then I won't urge her to stay here as she would not be accepted by the mgmt.

Be careful, Bonnie, about getting too deep into their business. It might backfire and you get blamed. If you ask your friend about providing financial backing, she might resent it - like you're hinting that she should. I really don't see Why they would give financial backing based on their previous actions. They invite her to Hawaii, and E pays all those "extras"? They invite her to an expensive live theater and E paid for it out of her own pocket. Based on their previous actions, I doubt very much that they will be willing to part with their money. Sigh...It's like my bro of next door. They can spend so much money on his Immediate family, and friends, and relatives - but not for my brother's parents. They will go and clean and repair other peoples' homes, but not their parents. WE have to call the plumber and get rip off all the time. Sigh... Actions speaks louder than words. Look at your neighbor/friend's past actions.

I would do what you had intended. Take her out, have a talk, and discuss the each options - the pros and cons. Her financial background. I think your friend is expecting you to do what She Is suppose to be doing...because you let your heart rule your actions. Be very careful Bonnie that you don't take on more than you can handle....If she chooses to stay, any possibility of finding a place that is safe but inexpensive? It all fall backs on how much $$ she has left (after she spent it on frivolous things that her daughter invited and she ended up paying for it and not daughter.) And if she found a job and is it enough for monthly cost of living.

You can ask your friend how does she think her mom will live on her own. Does her mom have enough money to support herself? How is she going to travel around? Maybe these questions will wake up your friend - maybe not. I'd be curious, too.

Ask your friend about the finances for Mom. What have you got to lose? It doesn't sound like this friendship is worth tiptoeing around for in any case. But maybe if you heard what they are offering in the way of financial help it would cast them in a better light. I think you should ask to give them a chance to redeem themselves somewhat in your eyes.

Well ladies, daughter called me a bit ago and updated me. E is still upset and all. I came right out and pleasantly asked if they were going to subsidize E so she would qualify for the apartment. She said yes.

But, when we talked about it last week (daughter came for coffee to talk about this situation) and I said she and hubby would have to suck it up for her mom, she said they were considering some $$ help for while and offering to pay PART of the cost for Mom to move to VT to live with her sister (and let Auntie take on the responsibility). So I don't know how much rent they would kick in or for how long.
E could work on getting ready to go back to work, too. She has a great deal of work experience under her belt, albeit, from some years back. We are not in a high unemployment area so she could do some interesting things.
She just needs to believe she is going to be fine on her own.
Clearly, finances and loneliness are her major problems.
Sound familiar???
best to you all.

Hi Bonnie, just a word of warning, this friend is also a neighbor, no? Just, well, you do not want to get into a war with a neighbor. I am not saying you should not be thinking of E's needs and aren't dear for doing so but tread lightly. Also- I wonder if E's daughter, your friend, though seemingly with an access of wealth , is actually just getting into credit debt and not so financially secure as one would think. And if you keep pushing and she is prideful she may become resentful. I am playing Devil's advocate here a bit just because you seem so caring and kind and I would hate for your good intentions to bite you in the rear. Just tread lightly, is my thinking. And good luck!

Know just what you are saying!
After exercise class this morning, we walked over to the senior apartments with one of our "classmates" and had a lovely tour. As far as apartments go, this is a very good deal as they have lovely gardens, big kitchen (where they do pot-lucks and birthday parties etc.) and a game room plus library. She met the manager who was really nice and remembered my friend Lois who used to live there.
Everyone was very friendly and that made E feel ever so much better. We talked about her options, including the possibility of moving into her daughter in Vt. (with a difficult child and 6 cats in the room in a tiny house) or her sister (again in VT.) who has a ADD daughter going through menopause living in the house, too. Neither one sounded good to her.
She took the application from the manager.
We talked about being independent and living with people who are interested and doing things...so I think she is seriously feeling better about it all.
Still don't know what contribution daughter and family will make.
E. told me they offered her some of their old furniture...phooey on that...

About a year ago daughter and husband had a great brouhaha over the lot boundary with our other neighbor (4 houses, 2 in front and 2 across the creek in back). It was a real mess and all kinds of monies were spent on lawyers. I remember SIL saying he could outspend on lawyers so was going to keep it all up...Anyway, that's the way he is.

Just had an email from daughter K who suggested E and I do something fun Friday night. "We were going to have a romantic outing ourselves but felt guilty so why don't you take E and have fun...our treat" The twins are at some camp.

I'm off to get a bone density scan. Thanks for you very helpful suggestions!
And no, this isn't going to turn into a neighborhood issue. E is really too alive and capable to be stuck in some unused bedroom. Just wish K and family didn't handle it the way they did.
Will let you know!
Bonnie

Bonnie, I am enjoying your recounts here. You have a good way of telling your story ! I fear I am becoming addicted to your life!! Haha.

Are you p.oed a bit at K for asking you to take E out so they can go out to eat? But at least she did say "our treat". Just curious.

Oh my, the fight over the property lines does not bode ( is that the right word?) well for predicting future outcomes, IMO. (It was with K and husband and neighbor , right? Not your daughter and husband? ( sometimes I gets confused ;0) ) -- and I must say I think people who talk a big game about the monies they have often are the very ones who don't have it. I am sorry but I am suspicious of K and her husband.

The apartment sounds lovely. You seem to have such a nice full life and seem so vivacious -- that alone would make ME want to live in those apartments!! ( instead of moving in with 6 cats!) To keep YOU close! I have a dear friend who just lights up the room and has a way of making you feel so special and she just has this gift of listening. She will lean in and really listen to you talk. From your posts you remind me of her. Unfortunately she lives about four hours away (neighbors to my parents-I grew up with her and her sister-she took care of her sick parents in the home she grew up in and now lives there with her family. Her parents passed away about 6 years ago-a month a part. We think the Dad was waiting for the Mom to die before he would let himself die. Mom had a terrible auto immune disease and Dad had cancer. I was there with them when they finally released Mom off the ventilator and then also when Dad died. He was at home with hospice. Actually when this all happened is when I realized something was going on with MY mom. I was there for my friends-- I came up without my husband and daughter - a week for each parent and stayed with her sister to help them with the passing of each parent. These were people who helped raise me. I was at their house as a child as much as I was at my own house. I loved them in their own right. Whenever I was in town visiting my parents my husband , daughter and I made a point of spending time with the Mom who was bedridden. I even sat with with her Mom for hours and sang to her when she was having horrible hallucinations. For some reason my singing calmed her down. Both of the sisters had to be somewhere and I just happened to be in town so I gladly sat with her until the other sister could get back. Anyway-- at this time my own Mom did not have any diagnosis and no one had any idea she may have any dementia--- this was when the Dad was dying at home-the Mom had passed a month earlier--- SO , I was at the house down from my parents sitting with my friends waiting with hospice and my Mom threw a fit. She wanted me to go to a shelter and look at this dog she wanted to adopt. ( I remember this like it was yesterday). I told her I could not -I was actually planning on going to help pick out cloths for the Dad later that day to wear at his funeral. I had stopped by her house to tell her this and that is when she freaked out at me. She just could not understand how I would choose to spend my time in town with my friends and not with her. I remember starring a her like, WTF?!? I explained that I would not even be in town if not for them. That I came in town to help them at their request -not to visit with her. She could not get it. I told her then that her thinking was messed up. That I thought she had something wrong with her brain. And I wasn't very nice about it , I am afraid. Shortly after tht she was diagnosed with AD. But now they think she does not have tht but maybe vascular dementia from some strokes she had that went unnoticed) MY GOODNESS- I don't know why I am telling you all this. I just wanted to say you reminded me of my friend and I end up telling you this long story !!! Sorry!! See, I do that with my friend. I just prattle on and on and she listens so well. I guess I am substituting her with you!! ;0)

So, back to K and E. The apartments sound lovely. I hope that E finds a good solution. You are kind to care.

Please keep us ( me :0) updated. Like I said I am enjoying your stories. Almost like a drama on TV! Though I do worry that you may get hurt throughout this process so ,again, please be careful!!

Happy day to you!

Sounds like they will fall back on you when it comes to her mom. Instead of her doing her daughterly duties, she turns to you. I'm not saying that you need to stop seeing E. But, I think when it is becoming too often and she begins to assume that you will always be there for her mom, please put your foot down and say no. This is a time to let her know that you will not jump hoops when she asks you to spend time with her mom. I'm trying to find the word....I know that your friends and you like E. But sometimes, people get lazy and the quickest way to assuage their guilt or satisfy their conscience is to get someone to be with their parent. It's like what my oldest brother used to do. Used to but no longer. Since he didn't want to come here and check if we need anything, he would send his daughter to come here. He said that his daughter represents him and his portion of "helping" us...even though this daughter rarely visited to help me with mom's pampers. She would post on FB that she has to go and help aunty with grandma...but that was alll talk and no action. But with brother sending is daughter down to us, his guilt is assuaged. He's doing his part.

E sounds like a wonderful person. She must have been disillusioned after arriving there. And now she's stressed out about being "kicked out" when it sounded like they were inviting her to live with them. She uprooted from her home/friends to come and finds out Not. So, I see her point of view also. And, Bonnie, just because Mishka and I keep warning you, we are not telling you Not to follow your heart. Just that you protect yourself and tread lightly. I think it's best that E does move out because she is cramping her daughter's life. This way, everyone is happy. I sure hope E finds a job to pay for the monthly cost.

Ladies, you are just so terrific! First let me tell you a bit about myself as I could have been right in the room MishkaM..
I first found this site because of being concerned about two friends, one former neighbor who has Parkinson's and was having a knee replacement way down in NC...and I was concerned about how she was going to be when she got home. Her husband is quite the martyr so I was looking for some help. She lived in the house that had the property line dispute with K a year ago.
The other cause for my research was my friend Linda. Like you, Linda's parents were second parents to us 5 kids. Linda is an only child. I was 3 when Linda was born, a few months after my third brother was born...I went to Linda's parents and asked if they would give me Linda and I'd give them my brother Clark because I wanted a sister! (12 years later my only sister was born).
My concern for Linda prompted this question. Can alcohol produce dementia symptoms? I was most worried that Linda was drinking too much (I'm far from a prude or Teetotaler) as she kept changing her stories and was pretty confused at times. Her mother was widowed back in the 1970's and was diagnosed with some sort of dementia/mental health issue a couple of years ago. Every time I'd go back to visit my family, I'd often stay with Linda and husband at least a week. Linda's mother was in a lovely AL facility (Same one Sargent Shriver used). I went to visit with and without Linda. the staff got to know me so did some opening up. turned out Linda was not coming over to pay rent or bring needed items but thought that she had. so anyway, I was concerned for my 2nd Mom and for her daughter my very good friend Linda.
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Bit more background. Our parents continued to live next door as they had from nearly honeymoon days and I'd be back "home" from college, etc. Then I married David W. who was in the Army.
Everything was wonderful until David was killed in Vietnam.
A very bruised and nearly broken Bonnie flew back to my parents open arms. Linda (still in college) stayed home that summer so she could be with me whenever I needed her. She loved music so she'd play piano and we'd sing at the oddest hours.
the Army assigned a Survivors Assistant Officer to me, and that was just wonderful. David was buried in Arlington National Cemetery in VA, just across the Potomac from my home in Bethesda, MD.
surprise, surprise...Linda married my Assistance Officer.
So, we are all rather bonded in wonderful ways. The bad thing is Linda's mom is not happy at the AL and Linda really complains about it costing so much. Linda and husband had one child who really separates herself from them because of the Wine drinking, but frankly, I've know this girl for years and she was a brat and still is. (get this, she went to a private school and thought that it was The Law that when she turned 16 her parents had to buy her a car!) Get my drift!
Back to the AL place with Mom2. She started to have more episodes and reasons to go to the hospital...she was going downhill. Last hospital trip I made a well-Mom2 call and found out that Linda's husband had said he was having her tested for Early On-set Dementia and that he would be taking over the care for Mom2.
Wouldn't you think the husband would turn to me for some support and help? No, he is very private and asks for no help. I can't even get him to talk with me on the phone. So I sent info on VA's Aid and Assistance program for Mom2 as her husband was WWII veteran.
So, that's where we are right now. I've been more worried about my own mother and her broken hip than figuring out if Linda has dementia or just too much wine that has hit her. she was hospitalized for a week a few months ago being dehydrated and hallucinations galore. (note here: she told me her mom was there during the day just in case she needed her)
I'm more convienced than ever that Linda does have something wrong as she sounds normal but then says something really off the wall. For example, her mother moved from the AL place in January to a rehab/nursing home. I was on the phone daily. Just yesterday, Linda said...Oh Bon, did I tell you mom moved? bon: You mean she moved again? L: Well, she moved last week from Byron House and is now at a different place.
So you see, she just isn't operating with a full 6 pack.

Maybe it's my general sense of compassion that leads me on paths that do include taking someone's hand when they need it. While taking E to the apartments today, I reminded her my friend Lois lived there years ago (even ran into one of Lois's buddies today who welcomed E so warmly). And yes, I did a great deal for Lois as I really loved her. I also learned not to be "on call" so much.
I am a very busy person. I also do CASA work (Court Appointed Special Advocate) for family law, meaning I'm a volunteer that the court appoints to investigate matters relating to a child/ren best interest regarding such issues as guardianship, visitations, custody issues. It is good training for identifying the issues and finally making recommendations to the judge directly.
And I'm a member of the DAR and the Colonial Dames...both great groups for women. I'm on the Board of the WA Dames as well as committee chairman of membership. And active in scholarship programs for history teachers and such, as I vet applications from about 12 folks here in the state each year and make recommendations.
I was raised a Quaker and consider myself a Quaker still, but I do like the non-denominational church near by. That is where E. is taking her grief counseling. I have been urging her to attend Sunday services as so often having your faith "restored" is helpful with grief and loss. Nice to revert to the comfort of past sensations.
Now, my husband Dale is retired US Air Force. His first wife died in the early 1980's. They had 4 children. Youngest had seizures and developmental disabilities. He lived with us until his mid 20's when he 'graduated" to apartment life. He did very well but it was an adjustment. He had a lovely girlfriend and they were able to feel very much "independent". With close and constant care, he managed to live 10 years beyond the expectations. He died at 31 peacefully in his sleep with his dad right there.

I never had any children of my own but am a happy grandmother of 10. Great grandma to 5!

so, that's a long "brief history" of me. My main career work was in Voluntary Organizational Management, which is how I met Dale back in Boston.
we've been married since 1986.

That is all rambling on to let you see that I've been down the road of friends and neighbors who are in need at times. I've been pretty good at doing the best I am able and still maintain boundaries. (Oh, the kids in the court program can really break your heart!"

I see my role for E is to help encourage her to get excited about this fine apartment, help her look for furniture and decorate it!
Most importantly, get K and husband to sign on the application that they will kick in $XXX monthly. That's the very least they can do as they did most definitely invite E and told her NOT to bring her furniture, so on and so forth.

They can afford it and even if it were a pinch for awhile (until E gets a job, for example) they should take the hit. Hey, lots of men would pay more than a few hundred dollars a month to get their MIL moved out!

so that is my tale. My mom called to tell me she does not want me to come now but she is most in need of me coming later when she is through PT and is back to as normal as she will be after this broken hip business. She is an author and needs my help on one particular upcoming book which may take a couple months to get to the publisher. so, I'll do that.

I'm pretty sure I'm not going to be able to do anything Friday night as I'm due to be a judge at the state level of National History Day on Saturday morning at the college here.
And I am NOT going to let K off the hook about caring for her mom.
Oh, get this,...now K refers to her mother by first name (E) and said something about only wanting what is best for E and her family.........I let that pass as I wanted to get more help with the $$ so didn't want to irk K. but I felt like saying ...YOU are her family!

Hugs to you both. I hope you can see I'm fairly experienced in traversing these paths. And if I slip, I'll be asking for your "I told you so"!!! with a smile.

and yes, Mishka, I did feel a bit peeved that K and family were sending E off with me to "cheer her up". Blame me? I don't think so.

It was great reading your posts. You are both wonderful caring people. And sounds like you are fun, too!
Bonnie